Author Topic: Some quality/important posts you may have missed  (Read 398941 times)

Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #160 on: April 2, 2009, 05:56:40 PM »
On what?
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #161 on: April 2, 2009, 06:43:48 PM »
Am I the only person on RAWK to find the title of this thread highly disturbing?

Yes.

Offline Crazy horse rocks!

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #162 on: April 3, 2009, 07:34:06 PM »
I had the idea to re-post Sabu Pundit's NAKED BOOBERY post, (It's already here on page 2). To find it I looked up the pundit's contributions, there was much chuckling.
If you're new to the pundit start at the bottom in order to accustom yourself to his journalistic style.

The man who wrote "Manchaser Nightie manger Ceramic FurJism" must be read.

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #163 on: April 10, 2009, 03:23:19 PM »
Just posted this quote on another thread but it's a tremendous bit of writing so...

Welcome to modern day football.

I'm going to do my best to stop myself from digressing, but football amazes me. And not in the good way. Not in the way of when I see a Cruyff turn, a Ronaldinho elastico or the Zidane roulette.

When it emerged that the two clowns from across the Atlantic were lying, odious wretched charlie uniform november tangos, it would have been easy to call it a day on football. It could have been and probably was the final nail in the coffin for many reds. I said I wouldn't step foot inside Anfield until they no longer own the club myself. I said I wouldn't put a single penny in their pockets. But, unfortunately, I lied to myself. But then again, the price of the pound has fallen so I claim a moral victory. I'll celebrate by crying into a pillow with self-hate spinning madly inside my body.

I've been to five games this season. Twice in the league (Portsmouth and West Ham), once in the cup (Crewe) and twice in the Champions League (PSV and Marseille). Anyone over a certain age will tell you that going to the game isn't the same anymore. And it isn't. There are less laughs, there is less banter, it is generally less fun and the smell of smoke (and weed) has been replaced by BO and farts. But this season is the first time we've really been in it. Properly in the mix for a change. And you know what? It's a fucking nightmare.

Being at the top of the table is where you get to flex your muscles. When you're as big as we do, you don't make a meal of it. We're not Newcastle. But at this moment in time, we are the best team in the country. This is fact; solid fact. No buts. Etch it into a piece of wood and date it. But I don't sense that many people view this as a time to celebrate. This isn't a culmination of all our hard-work over the past five years. This isn't payback time for all the heartache and pain we, the fans, have felt over the years. Oh no. This is where every Tom, Dick and Harry part-timer comes out of the woodwork. And for any of you that are interested, in the thesaurus, under "part-timer" you will see other variations, such as "bell end", "whopper", "charlie uniform november tango" and "glory-hunter".

While we all have our own view of what a "part time" or "glory-hunting" supporter is like, they are actually rather complex and strange beings. And you can't pigeon-hole them either. There's the harmless "Jim from the office" character. The one that suddenly starts taking an interest - he has Benitez on his desktop wallpaper and now drinks from an LFC mug. He even turns up in a replica top on dress-down Friday. Bless him. Then there's the other type. The more sinister ones. The Freddy Krueger, the Darth Vadar, the Frank Booth, the Captain Videl.

They're waiting round for the late movie on Saturday and they catch the end of Match of the Day. The league table shows Liverpool are sat top of the table. This is phase one. Phase two ensues as an advert for an upcoming Champions League tie comes up on ITV in the ad break during The X Factor. A quick montage shows Liverpool scoring goals, close-ups of Carragher and Gerrard, a millisecond shot of the Kop surfer. It's lodged firmly into the glory-hunters sub-conscious. Bit by bit, this creature becomes more engrossed. More intriuged. He hears tickets are roughly £30. He has a cushy job; £30 means nothing to him.

Weeks pass and he takes his seat in the famous Kop. But things don't go to plan. We don't hammer our opposition by a cricket score. The game is nervy. The players need the support of the fans. Suddenly £30 does seem like a lot of money and he begins to berate the team. He knows little about them; he probably doesn't know many of the players' names beyond Gerrard and Torres. But he still feels his opinion should be heard. Liverpool fail to win, he boos, fucks off down the motorway in his Saab convertible and feels no disappointment or frustration when he wakes up the next day ready to head down to the office to tell people called things like "Gav" about this great experience. Gav is then sat at home one Saturday night waiting for the late night movie...

Now I'm not saying there aren't old-school Kopites that act like whoppers. But what I am saying is, how will we teach the sort of person I described the proper way? People no longer get their education from The Kop. The school has shut down and people are now questioning why people are failing the exam. "RTK" set out to rekindle that old spirit. Recapture what it was like during the glory days. Well, the lads on the pitch are doing their utmost. It's about time we should too.

Offline Ginamos

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #164 on: April 10, 2009, 03:58:58 PM »
Just posted this quote on another thread but it's a tremendous bit of writing so...

Great pick, my favourite paragraph

Quote from: Garstonite
Being at the top of the table is where you get to flex your muscles. When you're as big as we do, you don't make a meal of it. We're not Newcastle. But at this moment in time, we are the best team in the country. This is fact; solid fact. No buts. Etch it into a piece of wood and date it. But I don't sense that many people view this as a time to celebrate. This isn't a culmination of all our hard-work over the past five years. This isn't payback time for all the heartache and pain we, the fans, have felt over the years. Oh no. This is where every Tom, Dick and Harry part-timer comes out of the woodwork. And for any of you that are interested, in the thesaurus, under "part-timer" you will see other variations, such as "bell end", "whopper", "charlie uniform november tango" and "glory-hunter".


Offline kavah

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #165 on: April 10, 2009, 09:00:37 PM »
Just posted this quote on another thread but it's a tremendous bit of writing so...


that is a great post by Garstonite.

this bit is very disturbing :

the smell of smoke (and weed) has been replaced by BO and farts. ...

I'm going out now for a ciggie, i'm not allowed to smoke in the house, how times have changed.

Offline Manav

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #166 on: April 15, 2009, 03:50:21 PM »
All I feel after last night is gratitude and pride. Not for the first time as a Liverpool supporter.

They say you are what you eat. We football supporters, regardless of our colours, are fed in several different ways. We are fed by the organisations which govern the game: the F.A., UEFA, FIFA, and so on. We are fed by the referees and match officials appointed by these governing bodies. We are fed by the media: newspapers, magazines, books, radio and television shows. This is our basic diet, and it is shared by supporters of every club.

It isnít always nutritious, thatís for sure. Sometimes it seems downright poisonous. Most of the time, however, it leads to simple malnourishment. We get just enough sustenance to survive and keep coming back for more, but itís unhealthy and very few among us can ever claim to be truly sustained by it. Most times, the pollution of our food chain is then further compounded by the greed of agents and their players, the widespread cheating of said players and their managers, and the hypocrisy and corruption endemic in the game at both boardroom and managerial level.

Letís be honest, no supporter wants diving in the game. Whatever club we support, every single one of us would rid football of this cancer across the board if given the choice, and along with it the feigning of injuries, the intimidation of referees and all of the other blights too. These are elements that wouldnít even occur to us when we first pick up a football and have a kick around with our friends after school. Itís not the game as we know it and love it, so why would any of us want cheating like that to infect football? We wouldnít. Thatís something we all have in common.

The problem comes when a member of the team you support specialises in such acts. Unfortunately, most football supporters tend to look away when that happens. Didier Dropba, for example, is beloved by Chelsea fans. Yet no right-thinking individual who love football could ever possibly condone what this man does on a game-to-game basis. Not one person who truly has any affection for this sport could have looked on in the opening moments of last nightís game as he feigned injury off the pitch and then rolled back on to get the game stopped, and not be disgusted. Yet the supporters of his club exalt him.

Why is that? Are we to assume that Chelsea supporters see diving, cheating, feigning of injury as part of the fabric of the game? And is it only Chelsea supporters? Did Man. United fans not defend Ronaldo through the worst years of his cheating (heís way behind Dropba on that score nowadays)? Didnít everyone laugh when Jurgen Klinsmann arrived in England and joked about his years of blatant cheating? Arsenal supporters didnít really care when Pires would dive, did they? And us, well, we take a dodgy penalty when we get it (Gerrard in Marseille in 2007 immediately springs to mind).

I think the crucial thing with us as a support is that we take such things when they occur, but we do not condone it. I think if weíre being honest, we would prefer Stevie and Nando never to go down when they can stay on their feet. We tend to appreciate honesty, in my experience, and if the attitudes on this site towards cheats like Dropba and Ronaldo are anything to go by, then we despise gamesmanship with a passion.

Yet we very rarely get that with Liverpool, do we? Outside of the occasional lapse by Luis Garcia or Stevie over the years (and, very occasionally, Nando), we have had honest teams going right back to Shankly and beyond. And though the game has changed immeasurably in recent years, and respect for the rules has sadly slipped, we have remained a clean team, routinely near the top of the fair play league and without one serial cheat in our team. Occasionally, one of our players might feel contact and go down. We donít condone that. But there has never been, and I hope there never will be, any institutionalised acceptance of cheating at our club as there has been at others (our opponents last night a prime example).

So what is it? Why is it accepted by some and not by others?

Because we are what we eat.

Football supporters support. We support our teams, thatís what we do. Chelsea fans have been fed a steady stream of cheats for a long while, certainly since Mourinho took over. They didnít bat an eyelid when Robben got Reina sent off in 2006, when Gudjohnsen got Xabi booked out of the semi-final second leg in 2005, or at the antics of Didier Dropba since his arrival. Theyíve been fed trash, so theyíve become trash.

Arsenal supporters have been fed glorious attacking football for a good few years. Hence they shout ďhoofĒ every time the ball leaves the ground from an opposing playerís boot. Once upon a time, they won league titles playing some of the ugliest football youíll ever see. They donít like that type of football anymore because their team donít play it. If they did, theyíd defend it to the hilt. Man. United supporters deride our past victories as meaningless, because theyíve been going through the most successful period in their history. Yet they bleated on about their past for 26 barren years.

Everton supporters are bitter, because they were once (not so long ago) regular contenders for the top trophies. Yet theyíve only won one in the last 21seasons and were almost relegated twice in the nineties. Their diet has been bitter. Theyíve become bitter. Newcastle United supporters are desperate. Desperation has been their diet. How else do you explain them welcoming a man with no managerial experience whatsoever as their saviour? Itís desperation.

And so on. But what are we?

Weíre dreamers. Weíre realists too. We appreciate honesty and hard work. We appreciate good football as well, but the minimum requirement has always been effort. We embrace our past with a passion. We never forget. No other clubís supporters would have carried on fighting for justice for the 96 like ours have, I truly believe that. We are proud. We are fighters. We are creative, good-humoured. We talk the talk, thatís true, because we are rightly proud of our past and donít impress easily (Chelsea F.C.). Yet we are also humble.

We are all of these things because thatís what weíve been fed forever. From Shankly and Paisley, onto Dalglish, Evans and Houllier, and now Rafa. Humble men, proud men, honest men. Good hearts, fighters, inspirers. Good-humoured too. Then thereís the players, from Keegan to Gerrard, Torres to Toshack, Barnes, Beardsley, Smith, Souness, and so on. Men. Real men. Fighters, winners. They make you proud. They inspire you. And you canít help, as a supporter, to have their character rub off on you just a little bit.

Thatís why we are who we are. Our diet has been nothing but fillet steak and fine wine our whole lives, win, lose or draw.

Chelsea supporters are to be pitied. Theyíll always be trash, because theyíll always be fed trash. Theyíll never know what itís like to be moved to tears by a team who lost the battle and the war, yet whose effort and honesty was truly humbling. Theyíll never know what itís like to feel like a fucking ant as you look at 96 names and feel nothing but empathy and strength, inspired by the struggle of great people for justice, and the courage and dignity they display every single day of their lives. Theyíll never know what itís like to have men Ė MEN Ė like this playing for them. Never.



All theyíll ever have is mercenary cheats like Dropba, diving and feigning injury, motioning to the crowd to turn up the volume. Theyíll have their badge-kisser Lampard. Theyíll have their captain John Terry, a man whoís admitted to cheating on his wife on multiple occasions. Theyíll have Ashley Cole. You canít even call these people men.

Last night was the most beautiful defeat I have ever experienced, and if there is a Heaven, I know there were 96 souls smiling down. A performance befitting the sombre occasion that today brings. We could have asked no more. I will always love this club, and unlike Chelsea, I believe that we will always have humble, hard-working, inspirational men like these to make us dream.

After all, thatís who we are. And last night proved that.

Offline -Sad Fuck-

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #167 on: April 15, 2009, 07:46:57 PM »
E2K's post is probably the best thing I've ever seen on this site.

Well done.

Offline MadErik

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #168 on: April 15, 2009, 07:54:17 PM »
E2K's post is probably the best thing I've ever seen on this site.

Well done.
Agreed. Beautiful.
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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #169 on: April 17, 2009, 10:23:07 AM »
Apologies to Phil Scraton, but I just read through his posts and thought I should put them here.

Note, if you're not aware of who Phil is, his subject matter is the Hillsborough disaster, so it's often very moving and upsetting to read.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=contributions;u=23934

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #170 on: April 17, 2009, 11:50:38 AM »
E2K, that's a brilliant read - very evocative. But I think it's unfair.

It's easy to go down the "Liverpool Good, Chelsea Bad" road, especially when you've just seen Drogba act like vermin and say, Kuyt or Torres act like gentlemen. But saying things like:

Quote
Theyíll never know what itís like to have men Ė MEN Ė like this playing for them. Never.

is doing a huge huge disservice to many Chelsea players who were great men as well as great players. Zola & Desailly spring to mind and I'm sure older people on here could name many more from past generations.

As for tarring all their fans with the "trash" brush, I think that's out of order too. There's a thread in the Hillsborough forum about a cfcnet thread on the disaster. Amongst all the insensive comments, there are many Chelsea fans who wrote things like this:

Quote
Some of you surprise me with your ignorance. The reason Liverpool fans wont let it drop and many fans from other clubs join them (like even Everton fans yesterday) is because nobody has been bought to justice for 96 innocent fans being crushed to death. It was a complete cover up by the police, do you know nothing about it? Thats why its very different to alot of the other disasters and why Liverpool rightly wont let it drop.

Now imagine that being your family member who that died that day and still to this day you can't blame anyone as nobody has been held responsible. Wouldnt you keep campaigning? I know I bloody well would.

RIP the 96.

That's written by Simon, a Chelsea fan. There are more like that.

Like I said though E2K, great article and I know it would have completely lost it's edge if you kept putting in disclaimers ("Theyíll never know what itís like to have men Ė MEN Ė like this playing for them. Never. Except for Zola, Desailly, etc" doesn't sound as good).

But I still think it's necessary for someone to point out theyre not all bad. There's a Charles Itandje thread too around here if anyone wants proof that we're not all good either.

Offline rafa is the bosphorus

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #171 on: April 17, 2009, 12:42:40 PM »
But I still think it's necessary for someone to point out theyre not all bad. There's a Charles Itandje thread too around here if anyone wants proof that we're not all good either.

Agreed. We're great because we're great. Not because they're not.

(I've got a lot of time for some of their fans, and players - though obviously not all.)

Love that picture of Kuyt. Perfect!

Offline E2K

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #172 on: April 17, 2009, 02:24:19 PM »
E2K, that's a brilliant read - very evocative. But I think it's unfair.

It's easy to go down the "Liverpool Good, Chelsea Bad" road, especially when you've just seen Dropba act like vermin and say, Kuyt or Torres act like gentlemen. But saying things like:

is doing a huge huge disservice to many Chelsea players who were great men as well as great players. Zola & Desailly spring to mind and I'm sure older people on here could name many more from past generations.

As for tarring all their fans with the "trash" brush, I think that's out of order too. There's a thread in the Hillsborough forum about a cfcnet thread on the disaster. Amongst all the insensive comments, there are many Chelsea fans who wrote things like this:

That's written by Simon, a Chelsea fan. There are more like that.

Like I said though E2K, great article and I know it would have completely lost it's edge if you kept putting in disclaimers ("Theyíll never know what itís like to have men Ė MEN Ė like this playing for them. Never. Except for Zola, Desailly, etc" doesn't sound as good).

But I still think it's necessary for someone to point out theyre not all bad. There's a Charles Itandje thread too around here if anyone wants proof that we're not all good either.

Those are fair points mate, and thanks for the kind words (and to everyone else who have posted responses).

I certainly have nothing but respect and affection for Gianfranco Zola, a player I was a huge fan of since his young days doing a very good job attempting to fill Maradonaís boots at Napoli, and who has always been a real gent. Chelsea F.C has probably had others too, for that matter. You mentioned Desailly. They also had a manager not so long ago with a lot of class, Claudio Ranieri. Gianluca Vialli always seemed a decent sort too. I could probably come up with a few others if I had more time to think.

The problem is, those days are gone. Maybe not forever, but the days of Chelsea F.C. having players that you can admire seem more and more distant to me.

Iím sorry if the word ďtrashĒ seemed a bit offensive, as you might tell I was a bit emotional when I wrote it. I do realise that Chelsea probably do have some great supporters. There are two in my girlfriendís family that I get on great with, one of whom (her uncle) has been a supporter since the sixties and remained loyal even when they were bouncing between the top two divisions and suffered the ignominy of changing hands for £1 (or whatever it was) back when Ken Bates took over. Believe me, I donít want to tar all of their supporters with the same brush.

However, I will never understand anyone who cheers Didier Dropba, and every single person in that stadium was on Tuesday (away end excepted, obviously). I canít fathom that, and Iíve tried. In fact, my post that you mention was borne of an attempt, in the aftermath of last Tuesdayís result, to get my head around the fact that they cheer and applaud individuals that make my stomach clench, and find some crumbs of comfort after the defeat which turned into a feast as I examined the reasons why weíre different and my heart began to burst with pride.

They cheer him because they support their club, and therefore support what their club gives them. Dropba is a piece of human excrement, at least as far as how he plays on the pitch. They cheer for human excrement because he wears a Chelsea jersey. I wouldnít if he was in a red one. Iíd rather walk away from the game.

You see, I can take it that the most barren spell our club has endured since the sixties (in terms of league titles, at least) has occurred during my time supporting Liverpool. I can take it that the most successful period in the history of our greatest rivals has coincided with our drought, from the time I was 12 to present day. Iím 29 now. In other words, these events have marked the vast majority of my life watching football. But thatís normal stuff, part of what supporting a club is all about. Despite the blows and the disappointments, itís something you just deal with and continue supporting the club. Itís that simple. It isnít even a problem, really.

Outside of that, I can take the fact that money continues to be numbers one, two, three and four on the list of priorities of almost every player that takes the pitch nowadays. Fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth is winning, which is to be achieved at all costs. Ninth and tenth is money again. I can deal with that. I can just about stick the agents and the bureaucrats, the rampant hypocrisy and corruption, the lies, the bullshit, the ego, the greed. I can tune out when thick pundits with vested interests start yapping. I can shake off the frustration and the anger I feel at the blatant, pre-mediated cheating that takes place in almost every game I see. I can take the WAGís and all the other hangers-on. I can deal with all of it and still stumble back for more.

You know why?

Because of Pepe Reina, who plays with a smile on his face and an immense passion for the game, who played for the 96 on Tuesday and held his hands up over his mistake. Because of Sami Hyypia, one of the toughest and fairest players Iíve ever had the pleasure of watching, a legend on and off the pitch. Because of Steven Gerrard, who weíve all had the honour of watching grow into one hell of a man, and who along with Jamie Carragher embodies what is great and unique about our club and the city of Liverpool. Speaking of Jamie Carragher - what did he say it was like in Istanbul, hot tar running down his leg as he cramped after throwing himself at yet another Milan cross? Magnificent.

Because of Fernando Torres, who knows. He just knows. Everything he says and does, the way he carries himself, he knows this club. Heís one of us. He gives a shit to learn the history, to make the extra effort. Forget about the goals for a moment Ė heís just a gem of a man. Because of Xabi Alonso, who had the inner strength to recover from being touted around in the summer (and two below-par seasons) to become our best player this campaign. Because of Dirk Kuyt, who is the embodiment of what anybody would want their son to become Ė honest, hard-working, loyal, strong, good-hearted, someone you could trust with your life. Wherever his dad is, you can be damn sure heís proud. Because of Javier Mascherano, another who leaves it all on the pitch, every game, who doesnít just give you a performance but gives you himself. Fuck it, because of Lucas Leiva, a young man thousands of miles from home who gets booed by part of his own support but steps right back up every time heís called upon.

Because of Rafael Benitez. No explanation necessary, but Iíll say it anyway Ė a throwback. Almost a mirage. An honest, humble manager these days? Who deflects all praise onto his players? Who answers every question, no matter how thick or underhanded, patiently and with a smile on his face? Who the supporters march for. Who goes into a bar and has a drink with those same supporters. Who gets it. Like Torres, he gets it. A man whoís one of us. Who gives a shit. Where the hell would you find someone like that to manage your team nowadays?

Because he isnít the only one. Gerard Houllier told us to aim for the moon, and he showed us the stars, at least for a while. Roy Evans, a chip off the bootroom block, dignified and graceful, a mirror image of the club he loves. Graeme Souness, who failed as our manager but is a glittering gem in the history of our club, a man whose passion for Liverpool F.C. continues to burn brightly. Kenny Dalglish. Words canít describe the esteem in which I hold that man, not just for his efforts as player and manager of Liverpool F.C. but for the way in which stepped up after Hillsborough. That was truly inspiring.

Because of Shankly and his love for the people, whose heart broke when he gave up the reigns. Because of Sir Bob Paisley. Because of Fagan. Because of Barnes and Beardsley, Aldo and Rushie. Thommo. Crazy Horse. Kevin Keegan. Brucieís wobbly legs and Jerzyís cover version. Because of Istanbul. Not just because we won, but because of how we picked ourselves up and fought. Just like last Tuesday night. Each Chelsea goal was a hammer blow to our hopes, but we kept coming back for more. We kept getting knocked down and getting back up. We kept swinging. As always, there was not one ounce of quit in that team. That defines this club, and from what I can see, defines the city as well.

Do you see what Iím saying here? The only reason I continue to watch a sport with so many disgusting elements is because of this club and its people, the supporters, the managers and players that its been lucky to have over the years, and its spirit. I do not understand anyone who cheers for Didier Dropba and I never will. If he was a Liverpool player, I would be disgusted. As my earlier post said, you are what you eat, and weíre used to better. What kind of reaction would you expect from me if I had to eat shit? Iíd probably puke my guts up, and thatís what itís like watching this man throw himself to the ground.

Dropba is a cheat. He dives, he cons. He feigns injury, all in the name of winning. Gudjohnsen and Robben were the same. So is Malouda. Frank Lampard kisses his badge like he loves the club, just like he did at West Ham, then looks to up his already mind-boggling wages with the knowledge that he can always move on if his demands arenít met. John Terry intimidates referees and shamelessly comes clean about cheating on his wife on multiple occasions, his finest hour since being part of a group (which also contained Gudjohnsen and Jody Morris, I believe) who caused a scene at a pub on the day of 9/11. Ashley Cole, another serial cheat who acts like weíre meant to care that Arsenal wouldnít pay him an extra £5,000 on his wages. Theyíre called rent boys. Rent boys bend over for money. Ballack came for the money too.

They may have some good pros, some players who arenít cheats, but the aura of that club since Abramovich bought it has been ďwin at all costsĒ and if that means cheating, so be it. The truth is, if Roman Abramovich had bought Liverpool in 2003 instead, if he had installed Mourinho as manager of us, or if Terry, Lampard and their chums were somehow playing for us now and Stevie, Nando and Rafa plied their trade at Stamford Bridge, I would no longer be watching football.

Now maybe thatís just me. If you disagree, by all means file it under ďWell thatís your prerogative,Ē no problem. But to see the difference between those players over the last couple of games, well surely Iím not the only one to notice it? Surely Iím not the only one to be angered by it? Yes, we are great because we are great, but a flower stands out even more if itís surrounded by garbage. Football, largely, looks more and more like garbage to me these days, and nights like Tuesday just reminds me why I still watch the game. Itís because of Liverpool F.C. and nothing else.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 02:31:18 PM by E2K »
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Offline No666

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #173 on: April 17, 2009, 02:54:54 PM »
Quote
nights like Tuesday just reminds me why I still watch the game. Itís because of Liverpool F.C. and nothing else.

Same for me. Well in E2K
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Offline moving_unit

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #174 on: April 17, 2009, 03:09:26 PM »
Good post E2K, could agree more with the fact that this NEW chelsea now has players turning up just for the money...even their fans only turn up for the free flags!

Chelsea are made up of very diferent people since abramovic turned up. Regarding Ranieri, he was a fine man who wasn't given the respect he deserved.

And i could be here all day talking about Didier Dogshit!
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #175 on: April 17, 2009, 03:29:21 PM »
Those are fair points mate, and thanks for the kind words (and to everyone else who have posted responses).

Thanks for getting back to me. I wasnt having a go at you by the way, but just thought someone should fight Zola and "simon" the chelsea fan's corner.

I know this was a reply, not a stand alone piece, but its a shame it's buried deep in a thread because both your posts deserve a thread of their own.

I'm curious to know a couple of things though:

1) Why is Lampards badge kissing more offensive than Carragher being a die hard Everton fan, to the point where even when we were paying his massive wages he'd support Everton in the derby? Then obviously he saw the light (when he was taunted at his local, Everton supporting, pub) and now he's a die hard Liverpool fan.

Now I know he didn't ever play for Everton, but I still dont think it's any "better" than Lampard converting. It's just something some professional footballers have to deal with when allegiences come into play.

2) John Terry and his infidelity. As wrong as it is I really dont think its so uncommon amongst professional footballers. In fact, I would be shocked if none of our players had ever cheated on their wives. Do you not think this goes on amongst our players?

I know these are trivial points in the context of the entire post, but I think even some of the current Chelsea crop aren't THAT bad.

Offline E2K

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #176 on: April 17, 2009, 04:16:29 PM »
Thanks for getting back to me. I wasnt having a go at you by the way, but just thought someone should fight Zola and "simon" the chelsea fan's corner.

I know this was a reply, not a stand alone piece, but its a shame it's buried deep in a thread because both your posts deserve a thread of their own.

I'm curious to know a couple of things though:

1) Why is Lampards badge kissing more offensive than Carragher being a die hard Everton fan, to the point where even when we were paying his massive wages he'd support Everton in the derby? Then obviously he saw the light (when he was taunted at his local, Everton supporting, pub) and now he's a die hard Liverpool fan.

Now I know he didn't ever play for Everton, but I still dont think it's any "better" than Lampard converting. It's just something some professional footballers have to deal with when allegiences come into play.

2) John Terry and his infidelity. As wrong as it is I really dont think its so uncommon amongst professional footballers. In fact, I would be shocked if none of our players had ever cheated on their wives. Do you not think this goes on amongst our players?

I know these are trivial points in the context of the entire post, but I think even some of the current Chelsea crop aren't THAT bad.

No worries mate, didnít think you were having a go at all, good points made.

On the Lampard thing, I suppose itís one of those situations where I feel the gesture is ultimately empty, seeing as how his contract negotiations appeared to go on a very long time for someone who loves the club and was (allegedly) getting paid over £100,000 a week anyway. Although, to be fair, as a Liverpool supporter it isnít really any of my business. If Chelseaís fans take it at face value, then fair enough. But if he played for Liverpool, I donít think itís something that Iíd care for overly. Like another badge-kisser, Alan Smith, circumstances can change quickly. Itís one thing to kiss the badge but (as I said before) in a sport where money is priority one, two, three and four for an awful lot of players, and winning is five, six, seven and eight, itís easy to be cynical about these things. When it comes to Frank, needless to say Iím a cynic.

To be honest, it even took me a while to work out why a player who professes to love Liverpool as much as Steven Gerrard came so close to joining Chelsea twice. I was pissed off at him for a good while after that, but I think it was immaturity mixed with the temptation of easier glory at a club going towards the major trophies faster than we were. As it stands, I think Stevie has matured a lot since then and I wouldnít trade him for anyone in the world. I tend to believe it more when he and Carra (Evertonian or not), both of whom are local lads and have been at the club all their professional lives, make gestures like that. Even then, such gestures arenít constant like they are with Frank. Theyíve never been greedy for money either as far as I know. Stevieís issue was with where we were going as a club. As far as I remember, money never came into it.

Again, these are just my feelings, maybe Iím wrong. But like a lot of things at that club lately Ė the plastic flags, Drogba geeing the crowd up, Reinaís ďpunchĒ on Robben, Xabiís ďfoulĒ on Gudjohnsen, and many of the fouls given to the home side Ė the badge-kissing has more than a whiff of bullshit about it for me.

As far as Terryís infidelity, itís just another thing that makes me dislike him. Heís no kind of role model, thatís for sure. Pissing in glasses in nightclubs, upsetting American tourists on 9/11, cheating on his wife, thatís the off-the-pitch stuff. Whether that should come into it or not depends on your viewpoint, I suppose. But what really got me about it was that he came out with this stuff in some womenís magazine around the time of his wedding, saying that sheíd had to put up with a lot from him so he made sure that she had the wedding of her dreams. I just thought ďYeah, that makes up for it, scumbag. At least have some shame about it.Ē This from the England captain too.

Maybe some of our players are unfaithful to their wives / girlfriends, maybe not. I try not to judge anyone, and itís none of my business. But the least you can do if you do stray is be at least a tad contrite or guilty about it. It was almost like he was flaunting it in that interview. What a dick. And Iím not crazy about him screaming in the faces of referees either. I suppose him and so many of his teammates have become poster-boys for the degeneration of this sport for me. Some of them might not be all bad, like you say, but the ones that are bad are truly abysmal.
@e2klassic

Offline liverbnz

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #177 on: April 17, 2009, 04:40:05 PM »
E2K I totally agree with you, I think the same things all the time, I just can't express them as poignant as you. When I do, it never comes out the way it is in my head and becomes very frustrating when people don't get what I am trying to say, but it ain't their fault. To be able to write like that is a gifted skill.
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Offline Joe_Singh

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #178 on: April 17, 2009, 06:56:26 PM »
To be honest, it even took me a while to work out why a player who professes to love Liverpool as much as Steven Gerrard came so close to joining Chelsea twice. I was pissed off at him for a good while after that, but I think it was immaturity mixed with the temptation of easier glory at a club going towards the major trophies faster than we were. As it stands, I think Stevie has matured a lot since then and I wouldn’t trade him for anyone in the world. I tend to believe it more when he and Carra (Evertonian or not), both of whom are local lads and have been at the club all their professional lives, make gestures like that. Even then, such gestures aren’t constant like they are with Frank. They’ve never been greedy for money either as far as I know. Stevie’s issue was with where we were going as a club. As far as I remember, money never came into it.

I have to agree on the maturity thing regarding Stevie, If you stick him on the right now he will be quite happy to play there. No questions asked. At one point it was the graveyard shift as far as he was concerned and he also questioned Capello giving him the No9 shirt. Now however he has matured and realised that he can be more effective in these more advanced positions and its not always about being a traditional midfielder like the media likes to go on and on about.
What I love about this, and several other of Kenny's press conferences, is that he manages to say something to the effect of  'Shut the fuck up, you fucking helmets and don't fuck with me or my football club or I'll make you eat your own balls', without actually using th

Offline kavah

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #179 on: April 20, 2009, 11:51:25 AM »
From Dentonboy on goonersweb:

http://z13.invisionfree.com/goonersweb/index.php?showtopic=38645&st=16

With apologies to David Peace...

"That Rafael Benitez. Rafa they call him. Goatee beard, whatever that is. Not like mutton chops. No, not a manly beard. Not facial hair. Not like my moustache. I miss my moustache. Mr Ferguson though, Mr Ferguson, said it tickled. Gave him a rash. Leant it to Phil at Hull.

Standing. Standing aloof in 'his' technical area. 'His' like he owns it. Staring at 'his' players. 'His' like he owns them. Staring at my players. Does he want to own them? Not likely says Big Sam. Big Sam, too big for England. The FA, too scared, too scared about what Big Sam can offer. Too scared of 4:5:1 with Upson up front. Matty Upson, big, strong. Manly, leading the line.

There he is. The Spaniard. In Big Sam's country. Applauding a goal. By Torres. Another Spaniard. He were imported. Imported into Big Sam's country. The arch of the ball. Leaving his boot. Leaving Robinson, my Robinson, staring at the English sun. Flat-footed like a bobby. A bobby on t'beat. Don't see many of them nowadays.

The noise. The noise of northern men. Northern men and women. Celebrating. Celebrating a goal. Scored by a Spaniard against an English 'keeper. England's best 'keeper. The horror. The horror. Horrible. Treason.

And then. More. The cross. The header. The score. In bold. Spain two. England Nil. Big Sam's England. And there he is. The Spaniard with his facial hair and note book. He's looking at Big Sam. He's looking at me. Past me. Or at me.

Looking. Smiling. Mocking Big Sam! Him! Mocking Big Sam! The arms. Moving. The Smile. The language! Si!? Todo bien?! Todo bien?!!! A chocolate bar?! That's a chocolate bar! He's shouting foreign bloody chocolate bars at me! I half-choke on my Boddington's! Game over. That's what he's saying. Game over Big Sam! Hidden in that language. Game over. He's mocking me. I look to Benni.

Benni. Benni McCarthy. McCarthy. Like Big Mick down t'road. South African. Practically British. A war there. You know? Boars or summat. A war about pigs? Wasn't that to do wit' Cuba? I look to Benni. Benni's waiting. Benni's a striker. He's pleading with his eyes. He's pleading with that raised finger. 'Play me Big Sam.' 'Play me.' We lock steely eyes. I placate him with crossed arms. Strong, crossed arms. 'Samba'll do a job Benni. Samba'll do it.' I say. I say with my arms. I say with my shrugged shoulders. There's still time. 55 minutes. No need for Benni. Samba'll do it.

I march back to give the fouth official advice. 'I could have been England manager!' I tell him. He stares. He's laughing. They're all laughing. Hateful. Spiteful. Mocking me. Mocking Big Sam. Bile rises. I march to t'bench. I almost trip, almost stumble over Winston. Winston. Winston the whippet. My whippet. Big Sam's whippet.

It's over. The Spaniard won. Beat me, beat me; Big Sam. four nothing. Cheated. They all do. Foreigners. I can't abide cheaters. Can't abide players who go around, go around like they own the place. I tell El Hadji. El Hadji agrees. He were booed. Mocked. They all mock. They mock Big Sam and his British Blackburn Rovers. Andre agrees. As does Morten. Never cheats, that Morten. Zurab. Zurab, a strapping lad from Rangers. Rangers in Scotland. British Scotland. He agrees. As does Carlos. Carlos. Funny lad. Says he's chilly. I give him me cap. A cap and a Woodbine.

The FA. I'll go t'FA. Mocking me he were. Taunting. Teasing. Terrible behaviour. Undermined me. Undermined me 4:5:1 with no recognised strikers. Mocked me. I phone Phil. I phone Brian Horten. Spaniards. All of 'em. Mocking. Spitting. I hate that. El Hadji agrees. We all agree. Mocking. Malevolent.

Big Sam'll be back. You'll see."



« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 11:53:00 AM by kavah »

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #180 on: April 20, 2009, 11:54:54 AM »
With apologies to David Peace...

That's fabulous!

Offline bod

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #181 on: April 26, 2009, 08:05:24 AM »
EK2 great post, highlights why I love Liverpool.  Our character stands out and has not changed over time and makes me love the club more and more.  I've come to realise that what I love is Liverpool FC, not football.

Couple of points I disagree with you.

I'm not sure that other teams can't change, you mentioned the Arse specifically and Chelsea as changing over time, so its possible.

We celebrated our undeserved 3-1 victory over Everton last year (admittedly, the 'cheat' was the ref).

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #182 on: May 7, 2009, 09:43:17 AM »
Loved this. :)

So there we go, Barcelona and United in the final.

Envious? Of the fact that they're in the final - undoubtedly. Of their teams? No. Not really.

It's a strange sensation for a Liverpool fan who grew up in the 90s to be able to look at the two teams in a Champions League final and not be particularly jealous of the quality they have at their disposal. It's not like this is Porto and Monaco either. These are the two best teams in Europe. And yet, I'd probably take as many players from their team to put in ours as they would from ours to put in theirs. Squad wise? That's a different issue, but I'm hardly breaking new ground by suggesting that where we fall down by comparison is in the strength of our squad.


Today I've read both Kuyt and Gerrard say that they expect to win the league soon. It's not a deluded belief anymore. It's not thoughts borne out of the fact that we've suckerpunched the best teams in Europe. It's down to the fact that we've battered them from pillar to post.

We'll strengthen in the summer, hopefully in the first 11, and thus make some of those currently in the first 11 squad players, and bloody good ones at that. We'll probably add a few around the squad and in the youth and reserve teams as well.

We probably wont win as many games from behind next season. We shouldn't have to. The penny has dropped. The mentality has shifted, at least in the last few months. We know that whatever happens, we can fight back from it, but we we shouldn't have to as much.

We probably wont do the double over United and Chelsea in the league again. It doesn't matter. The important thing is that we've now shown that we can beat them. Home and away. We're not going to get 14 points from the games against the other 'big 4' teams each season. United don't and Chelsea don't. The task now is to make beating these guys a consistent thing. 9-10 points at least each season. No finishing bottom of the mini league with 4 points.

We shouldn't have to win as many games late on next year. But, if we have to, well we know we can do it. We know we're not done until the final whistle is blown. You can score a heart-breaking winner in the 89th minute to kill our hopes of the title, and before full time is up not only will we have equalised but we'll be pushing for a winner of our own.

There is quality in this team, and unbelievable bottle. None of that phoney manufactured pre-match huddle bollocks that you find at second rate clubs like Arsenal. Semi-finals aren't over after 10 minutes of the second leg with Liverpool. You can put 3 past us at Anfield, have one foot in the semi-final, and you'll still have your heart in your mouth come the 89th minute of the return leg. And even then, when you score the winner, you still have to clench one last time as the ball is desperately hooked off your goal line.

It's a Rafa Benitez team now. You don't keep them down easy. You can go back through 5 years of European competition and you'll not find a single two legged tie that was over before the last minute of the match. Benfica? Needed a late goal to be certain. Chelsea needed a late 7th, and the year before the clung on despite getting a two goal advantage into injury time. Milan? You can guarentee they were clenched until the final whistle in Athens.

You don't beat this lot without leaving every last bit of yourself out on the pitch. It just doesn't happen. Infact, comebacks are becoming such a regular feature of this side that teams are visibly becoming edgier when they have the lead. You swung first, hoped for a lucky punch and yet all you did was give the Liverpool behemoth a bloody nose. You're fucked.


This summer is really going to grind. It already is.

Offline Lazy Gun

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #183 on: May 7, 2009, 10:40:54 AM »
EK2,

If its any consolation I believe that Dropa's antics against us last round, and in general, re-bounded back on Chelsea last night big time.  F****n pond-life

Ref's know they are cheats and they got nothing from the ref last night, which was what they deserve.  Hopefully they will overturn Abidals red which was bollox, and he will score the winner in Rome.

I had tears in my eyes reading your threads as you expressed so well what most of us feel.

Offline Phil M

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #184 on: May 7, 2009, 10:50:02 AM »
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline toshi

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #185 on: May 7, 2009, 11:01:20 AM »
thirded



quality post there juan  :thumbup
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Offline Hazell

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #186 on: May 7, 2009, 03:26:05 PM »
Great post by Juan.
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

Offline Rafas3leggedtable

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #187 on: May 7, 2009, 04:36:50 PM »
this is a cheat really but just found this from August 2004 by Brian Reade. Made me realise how far we have come and how some of us (no smugness inteneded) stuck by Rafa right from the start, stayed with him when some questioned his vision, and ultimately put our faith in him....

THE BRIAN READE COLUMN

Aug 14 2004


WELL it was a revolution Liverpool fans demanded and it's a revolution they're going to get.And when your side is 30 points off the title pace, you haven't been champions for 14 years, half the squad gives mediocrity a bad name, no home-grown kids have come through for half a decade and there's a clique of senior local players who think they're The Untouchables, thank God for the guts and vision of Rafael Benitez.Because someone is finally holding a mirror up to Anfield's complacency, smashing sacred cows without fear or favour and doing so at the breakneck speed required to stay in the same league as the three teams above them.A clash of wills before the crucial end-of-season clash at Old Trafford epitomised the fragmented state of the club. Gerard Houllier told his captain he was starting with Bruno Cheyrou in midfield and Milan Baros up front but Steven Gerrard and the lads reckoned he'd got it wrong.Le boss was told to play Danny Murphy ahead of Cheyrou and Emile Heskey instead of Baros because Michael Owen and the Czech were too similar. Houllier backed down and the Reds won.But a few things became clear that day. Houllier was finished. The attack had become too focused on who partnered Owen. Baros made his mind up to leave if Houllier stayed. And the dressing-room was lost to a select clique, confirmed after Houllier's exit when the chief executive said he would consult Owen and Gerrard on who the next boss should be.Benitez clearly had a whiff of this player power. Which was why he ordered the local lads to sit with the foreigners at meal-times and change room-mates.Maybe Murphy and Owen resented this as much as they resented being told their game and attitude had become stale and needed improvement. Maybe that's why they feel so wounded.If so you have to commend Benitez for taking such a huge risk with such huge reputations, just as he did by selling his captain Gaizka Mendieta when he arrived at Valencia, then went on to win the title.But what was the alternative to the problems of over-inflated egos, cosy cliques and players being allowed to play God with their contracts? Court popularity with the local lads, tinker with tactics and personnel, and protect yourself with talk of an evolutionary five-year plan?It would have been the same old story. The collective will to succeed wouldn't be there and Owen and Gerrard would have left anyway. But by showing the door to those he thinks aren't up to his high standards, along with those who think they are above them, he is doing the right thing.And anyone who sees the loss of Murphy and Owen as ripping the Scouse heart out of the club, an act which may force Gerrard out, should ask themselves this question: Since when have natives of Chester been called Scousers?If Gerrard wanted to play for a club with a local heart why contemplate Chelsea?The heartbeat of Liverpool's greatest sides has never been English, let alone Scouse. The spines of the great teams of Bill Shankly and Bob Paisley were Scottish, and the Double-winning side Kenny Dalglish led out at Wembley in 1986 did not possess an Englishman. As for Owen's exit, how can his move rip the heart out of the club when his own heart is clearly elsewhere?Every Kopite was aware that the Boy Wonder wanted to be a Man Wonder at another club, so maybe it's best he's come clean now before he left Anfield for nothing.And those who say too many foreign players ruin an English side clearly haven't been watching Arsenal. It's not simply about foreigners but the quality of the foreigner. Benitez, like Arsene Wenger, is a genuine student of the game and a proven winner. Ask Owen's new employers.He knows the Spanish market as well as Wenger knew the French one and should be trusted to bring in top quality ready to go straight in the side, not lightweight journeymen to clog up the bench, thwarting young local talent.This seems to be in the Spaniard's plans. Against Graz AK on Tuesday he blooded two young locals - Stephen Warnock and Darren Potter - never seen under Houllier. That's the way a squad should be. Made up of first-choice players and young reserves. Not bloated with passengers sitting around on big contracts sucking the life out of the club.Those who believe losing stars leads to inevitable decline should remember how well Liverpool coped after releasing Kevin Keegan, Graeme Souness and Ian Rush, legends whose contribution in their final two seasons were far superior to Owen's.In fact the only legend they couldn't replace was Dalglish the manager. When he left, the club lost a direction it is yet to rediscover. Maybe that's about to change.It's early days but in Benitez they have a courageous, driven leader who knows where he wants to take Liverpool and plans to get there with or without certain individuals.The idea that the exits of Owen and Murphy will bring down the house of cards is nonsense. The house fell down in 1991 when Dalglish temporarily lost his marbles, and has been seeking a new builder ever since. It looks like they might have found him.Viva Benitez.
The people of Liverpool are workers. This is not a rich town where everyone lives a comfortable life. They work hard for themselves, and this is what we at Liverpool like to do. This is the attitude we must all have.

Offline ThisisAnfield96

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #188 on: May 7, 2009, 04:40:06 PM »
Brilliant Juan

Offline liverbnz

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #189 on: May 7, 2009, 04:50:18 PM »
Good stuff from Brian Reade! Some things I didn't know were going on at the club, and can't say I liked to hear. Reminds me a bit of Nash, Hall and Hogan running (into the ground) WCW. Anyway would have been interesting to see where we would have been now if we had of sold Gerrard in the summer of 05, who his replacement would have been and were the money we got went? Of course, we'll never know but hypothetically...
« Last Edit: May 7, 2009, 04:54:38 PM by liverbnz »
One thing you will discover is that life is based less than you think on what you've learned, and much more than you think on what you have inside you from the very beginning

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #190 on: May 7, 2009, 04:51:20 PM »
THE BRIAN READE COLUMN

Aug 14 2004

Certainly did miss it. Cheers

Offline Manila Kop

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #191 on: May 7, 2009, 05:10:03 PM »
That Brian Reade column was incredibly ballsy and very prophetic.  Reade deserves a congratulatory handshake for that one.
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #192 on: May 11, 2009, 09:08:18 AM »
Cheers for this Jack Slater...

For the first 36, our best points totals are:

1.  1987/88  -  84 points  [finished 1st:  90 points from 40 games]
2.  1982/83  -  81 points  [finished 1st:  82 points from 42 games]
3.  2008/09  -  80 points
4.  2005/06  -  76 points  [finished 3rd:  82 points from 38 games]
5.  1981/82  -  75 points  [finished 1st:  87 points from 42 games]
6.  2001/02  -  74 points  [finished 2nd:  80 points from 38 games]


For the first 37, our previous best are:

1.  1987/88  -  85 points  [finished 1st:  90 points from 40 games]
2.  1982/83  -  81 points  [finished 1st:  82 points from 42 games]
3.  2005/06  -  79 points  [finished 3rd:  82 points from 38 games]
4.  1981/82  -  78 points  [finished 1st:  87 points from 42 games]
5.  2001/02  -  77 points  [finished 2nd:  80 points from 38 games]



For the first 38 games, our previous best 10 points totals are:

1.  1987/88  -  86 points  [finished 1st:  90 points from 40 games]
2.  2005/06  -  82 points  [finished 3rd:  82 points from 38 games]
3.  1982/83  -  81 points  [finished 1st:  82 points from 42 games]
4.  2001/02  -  80 points  [finished 2nd:  80 points from 38 games]
5.  1981/82  -  79 points  [finished 1st:  87 points from 42 games]
5.  1989/90  -  79 points  [finished 1st:  79 points from 38 games]
7.  1985/86  -  76 points  [finished 1st:  88 points from 42 games]
7.  1988/89  -  76 points  [finished 2nd:  76 points from 38 games]
7.  1990/91  -  76 points  [finished 2nd:  76 points from 38 games]
7.  2007/08  -  76 points  [finished 4th:  76 points from 38 games]


So this season is the 5th time that we have ever reached the 80 point mark in 38 games or less.  Rafa is the only manager to have achieved it twice  (one each for Paisley, Dalglish, Houllier/Thompson).

If we win one of our last two games, we'll have our best 38-game points total since we last won the league.  It would also be the outright highest total that we have ever had for a 38 game season.  Indeed it would be our best season total for 21 years.

If we win both of our last 2 games, then we will equal the highest points total that we have ever had after 38 games. 


Let me repeat that.  We could equal the highest points total that we have EVER had for 38 games.  This is why I get really frustrated with people who complain that "Raf threw it away" or  "if Rafa changed his tactics, then we would have turned those draws into wins".  Fine.  We havent been good enough to win the league.  But Rafa's obviously been doing something right to get us into this position.

royhendo

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #193 on: June 4, 2009, 10:15:06 PM »
Maybe the most important annual post of the lot.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=243416.0

Offline Uhoh AureliOs

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #194 on: June 5, 2009, 12:17:52 AM »
On Rafa and his man-management skills:

He's brought the best out of truculent characters like Gerrard and a very headstrong Carra - people who wouldn't suffer a fool for a milli-second. He's unleashed Torres' undoubtedly immense potential in a way that his home club and national side didn't and haven't. He's given unassuming players like Arbeloa, Crouch and Benayoun levels of fire and self-belief they probably had no idea they had. He's put steel and a vicsciousness into Alonso's icy-calm play and curbed Mascherano's mouth without harming his fire or aggression on the pitch. He's turned a top scoring striker into a right-winger without complaint, and has never shied away from buying strong, even 'dubious' characters like Bellamy and indeed Reina. Mercurial 'problem' types like Bellamy and Cisse who aren't shy with their opinions were shunted out without a bad word about the gaffer from either of them, indeed they've had nothing but praise and respect for the man, despite having (arguably) genuine cause for complaint - certainly more than Keane ever had.

Just because he keeps things aloof and professional doesn't make him a bad man-manager. I think people confuse 'good man management' with 'pandering to players egos, building them up and telling them how amazing they are'.

I've no doubt the latter approach would have brought the best out of Keane, and would bring the best out of Babel - doesn't make it good man-management. Indeed that kind of approach can lead to players stagnating and fulfilling their potential. I strongly believe Keane would have become a far better player for listening to Rafa. After all, Gerrard was a vastly superior player than Keane when Rafa got hold of him - and despite his moans and gripes with Rafa he's become even better yet - arguable the very best in the world, for my money certainly the best no10 type - a position NO-ONE saw him playing in even three years ago.

Guess what too? Though it seems to have been bizarrely ignored Gerrard also came out this year and basically said: "Rafa was right, I was wrong and somewhat selfish. He's the fucking biznich and I'm a lucky chappy to have him. I get on with him tippety top and wouldn't swap him for all the Chai in Tina etc etc"

His team has come back from impossible situations time after time after time and our team spirit and mental strength is now second to none - to NONE in world football. We're a side with iron discipline that puts our rivals to shame, and the players are obviously happy with each other, play for each other like their lives depend on it and celebrate like it's their kid's first words. We don't throw tantrums on or off the pitch, management decisions are as close to being completely accepted as is possible in an emotional sport like football. He gives the players huge levels of personal freedom - doesn't interfere with their lives at all and yet they somehow manage to avoid pissing themselves in public, shagging OAP prostitutes or (allegedly) gang raping people like the shining examples from other clubs with 'great' man-managers.

In this season in particular we've come from behind time after time after time and had more late winners then a 'killing people called winner' contest. This team now has a clear personality that's shining through and even starting to over-power more mentally weak opponents - even when we're playing shite.

But yeah, all that's obviously in spite of Rafa's man-management skills rather than because of them ::)

Rafa = poor man manager is a myth and a bloody tedious one. It's right up there with rotation and zonal marking in the league table of guff people say about our manager. He's a bloody superb man manager and the apparent inability of characters like Keane and Babel to deal with his approach is a testament to the strength of will he's instilling in us, not evidence of any failings.

Offline Manila Kop

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #195 on: June 5, 2009, 03:28:11 AM »
On Rafa and his man-management skills:

That's bloody good from HBHR.
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline opsteo

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #196 on: June 5, 2009, 08:17:50 AM »
On Rafa and his man-management skills:

Insightful stuff ...Well done.

if only more in RAWK bother to  read this article rather than using Keane as if it is a good example to push out Rafa.

royhendo

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #197 on: June 18, 2009, 09:03:54 PM »
Not everybody's going to agree with everything in this, but regardless it's a great post.

As the summer goes on, the speculation gets to you more, doesnít it? Or is it just me? The last few weeks have felt like a few months, and itís only the middle of June. Another two and a half months of this shit. I hoped that our first signing would calm me down, but even though Johnson looks a dead cert to come now, Iím still frustrated. And just a little bit angry too.

Iíll try not to comment on Xabi too much right now, because that frustration and anger could veer out of control if I start letting it out, and I still try not to place too much faith in transfer speculation no matter how much smoke there is. Iíve loved this lad ever since he joined us. If I was still a kid, he would be my hero. A ball-playing midfielder of some grace and skill, a dying breed. Modest and humble, quiet on and off the pitch, even more of a dying breed. A role model and an inspirer. The sublime passes he routinely plays that he makes look so easy. The goals from his own half and his continued attempts to add to them.

Iím an adult now and I have no heroes as such, certainly not in football. The older you get, the more you come to realise that your heroes always let you down eventually. But if I did then have any, then Xabi would have been high in the queue these past five years. So would Mascherano, for that matter. Just like Ronnie Whelan and Steve McMahon were heroes when I was eight, if I was that age now Xabi and Masch would occupy their place, I know they would.

And itís frustrating, because I feel annoyed and pissed-off by the fact that they canít just come out and distance themselves from the repeated speculation about their futures. Xabi had a chance with the interview yesterday and, rather than quash all the rumours outright, he only added to them. And I ask myself and try to understand why. Why, when this club is on the brink of something magnificent, is he ambiguous about wanting to leave? And try as I might, I neither respect nor understand his thinking or his motivations.

As I understand it, Rafa tried to spend £18m on Gareth Barry last summer and was told to fuck off by his board. Raise the money yourself, you ainít spending £18m on a 28 year-old midfielder (but hereís £20m for a 28 year-old striker). Rafa eventually made the call that Barry would be a better bet than Xabi.

I, like everyone else, can only speculate as to why. Xabi had just come off a couple of average seasons (by his standards, I stress). Barry, on the other hand, while having nowhere near the talents of Alonso, is consistent in what he does. What you get from him this week, youíll get from him next week, next month. He can also cover left midfield, and this was before we bought Riera. I donít believe that it was ever Rafaís plan to sell Alonso. The plan was to buy Barry in addition to Xabi, thatís what I believe and do correct me if Iím wrong.

Plan B came into play, though, when the board wouldnít stump up the £18m, and suddenly Xabi came into the picture. Rafa made it known that he was available Ė at the right price. He wasnít so desperate to sell him that he took the first offer. People said he didnít rate Xabi, but number one, he bought him for Liverpool in the first place, and number two, it was very clear that he rated him very highly by the price tag he placed on him.

Anyway, it appears that Xabiís feelings were hurt, and thatís why he seemingly wants to leave in June 2009, or is at least in two minds about it. Rather than saying heís staying at a club thatís on the brink of something very special, he letís the speculation that heís off to Madrid run wild, and even pours petrol on the fire. Personally, yesterdayís interview and the above comment donít impress me one little bit, nor does the comment a few weeks ago that whatever happens ďI am not going to be unemployed, so I am not worried".

Sometimes, you forget that football and footballers exist in a different universe, even the good ones. And when you think about it, you feel confused, frustrated, maybe you even feel a little hatred towards yourself for feeling so sanctimonious. Weíve all thought, at one time or another, how fucking ridiculous it is for a footballer to earn so much in comparison to a doctor or a nurse. But thatís the way it is, and were we ever to think about that too much, well weíd never be able to watch another game of football. So we push such thoughts to the back of our minds.

Occasionally, however, these thoughts escape, usually when some footballer or other is complaining about seemingly insignificant shit. Poor Ashley Cole had to leave Arsenal over the horrible bastards offering him £55,000 a week rather than £60,000 (thatís what he said in his book, correct?). And poor Rio Ferdinand, as I recall, had to practically go on strike when Manchester United expected him to sign a new contract for a measly £100,000 a week. The cheek!

In Xabiís case, it isnít about money, but this whole saga (I know it canít genuinely be called a saga yet, but it seems like it and it will be if it goes on much longer) has freed some of those thoughts from the deepest recesses of my brain once again. If there is one manager in the game who never makes decisions for personal reasons or out of spite or out of malice, itís Rafael Benitez. He does what he feels is right for the team and to be successful, thatís it. Unlike Mr. Ferguson, he has never kicked a boot at one of his players or fucked pots of tea around the dressing-room or shipped players out (Keane, Stam, Van Nistelrooy) when he felt they were questioning him. Hell, I wonder what Fergusonís reaction to a player going public (repeatedly) on not wanting to play in a certain position would be?

Like him or not, you can rest assured that items 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 on Rafaís top five goals at Liverpool F.C. since day one have been ďWin as many trophies as jou can, jes?Ē Making his players feel like shit has never been part of the program. He has never gone out of his way to do so. When Steven Gerrard was asked to play wide-right, Rafa wasnít chuckling to himself at how pissed off Stevie was. We didnít have a good option for that side at the time, and had very good options in midfield. Therefore, he decided to play Stevie out there. It was a footballing decision. Likewise, when Rafa spent £20m on Robbie Keane, his plan wasnít to waste him and destroy his confidence. His plan was clearly to improve the team, it just didnít work out that way.

The proposed Gareth Barry transfer last summer was Rafaís attempt to improve the team, kick on and win the Premier League, nothing more, nothing less. It was a judgement call, and when it became clear that he was going to have to raise substantial cash to buy him, Xabi was the one he adjudged to be expendable. It wasnít out of spite, he didnít go ďFuck Xabi, Iím going to make him feel like shit.Ē Based no doubt on long, hard, rigorous analysis of a multitude of factors (Xabiís form and Barryís attributes being two of the main ones), Rafa made the difficult decision to basically put Xabi up for sale. But make no mistake, this decision was not made out of anything else but the desire to win the trophy we all want him to win. Say he was wrong if you want Ė the way last season worked out would tend to prove that he was very wrong and that we dodged a bullet Ė but there was no malice in what he did.

Flash forward to this summer, and Rafa was apparently gazumped for Barry just a couple of days into the transfer window. A nice story, bollocks in my view, but a nice story nonetheless. For me, and itís just common sense in my eyes, if Rafa had wanted a player that he was willing to pay £18m for last summer, and who was now available for £12m, then he would have bought him. And regardless of what people say about Barry being a greedy mercenary, if there was an offer on the table from Liverpool that was acceptable to Villa, he would have come here. This whole Barry transfer saga started because Rafa wanted him, but it developed into a firestorm because Barry wanted Champions League football. That desire hardly went away to the point where a few extra grand on his salary satisfied him enough to sign for a club that probably wonít see Champions League football for at least two years. Thatís what my gut tells me anyway.

Personally (and Iím not ďITKĒ), I suspect that the Barry transfer didnít happen because Rafaís priorities have changed. In fairness to Xabi, his form was what changed them. This has been the best season of Xabiís Liverpool career, and with Riera being solid on the left for the most part and three left-backs at the club, Barry would have been hard-pushed to get into the team anywhere. £12m for a 29 year-old back-up when the clubís finances are in a mess? Common sense tells me that if a bid was made, it was nowhere near £12m. Fuck Manchester City and their market-inflating spending spree. When Michael Owen had one year left on his contract, we only got £7m and a shit player for him. Barry was worth nowhere near £12m anyway considering the fact that heíd have been available for nothing next summer, but with the season Alonso and Masch have had, his value to us was lessened even further.

However, it appears that Xabi hasnít been able to let it go. I donít need to rely on idle press speculation to work that one out Ė there is no earthly footballing reason to leave this club right now, none. Torres had it right when he said that this club has everything (well, almost right Ė all weíre missing is the Premier League trophy, competent owners and a shitload of money). Mascherano too, if his agent is acting under his instruction, doesnít have valid footballing reasons either, in my view (but this isnít the thread to talk about him). Rafaís attempt to sell Xabi, if thatís whatís eating him and I think we can assume that it is, was nothing personal. He hasnít been persecuted or mistreated. And in fact, he played almost every game last season.

Maybe last summer, the managerís faith in him had been shaken a bit, but he wasnít the only one. My heart and my head told me that we should keep Xabi, because form is temporary, because there are very few players like him in world football, and because Gareth Barryís are dime a dozen in comparison. But I was also worried that Xabi hadnít been in great form for some time, and clearly so was Rafa to the point where, had a bid come in that matched his valuation of the player, he would have sold him.

Look at it this way: last summer, he was for sale for the right price (somewhere in the range of £16m, right?). This summer, the world has been told outright (via a statement on the clubís official site) that Xabi Alonso is not for sale. Now even if I was sympathetic to Xabiís hurt feelings on this (which Iím not and Iíll explain why in a bit), it should be a two-way street. If he feels hurt by Rafaís pursuit of Gareth Barry, then conversely he should feel better by the fact that his manager has issued a hands-off warning and intimated that it would take crazy money to get him. Crazy money, like £30m worth (though if Ronaldo is worth £80m, maybe we should be looking for £60m?). Where were Real Madrid last year when he was available for £16m? Or Juventus, who decided that Poulsen was a better bet? Probably thinking along the same lines as Rafa, thatís the truth.

If your manager does something to hurt your morale, that makes you think he doesnít rate you, then surely something that proves he does rate you should make up for it, especially when said manager didnít specifically set out to hurt you in the first place? I donít know, maybe Iím wrong. Maybe I just donít get footballers.

The other factor frequently mentioned is that Xabi fell out with Rafa over missing the Inter game in 2007/08 after his wife had given birth. Iím not sure how much of a factor that actually is, given that it happened eighteen months ago, but I will say that if Rafa was guilty of anything on that occasion, it was expecting of his players the same as he expects of himself. When Rafaís father died in 2005, he stayed with the team in Japan rather than flying home. In this case, Xabiís wife was giving birth. Nobody had died. And while I sympathise with Xabi on this one, all Rafa was looking for was ultimate professionalism. Was it a bit much? Perhaps. I want to be there when my girlfriend gives birth. But is it worth holding a grudge? No way.

Weíre talking about being professional here, and thatís about more than picking up a pay cheque. What does Mr. Pink mean in Reservoir Dogs when he says ďIím the only one acting like a fucking professionalĒ? Does he mean heís the only one getting paid? No. He means heís the only one doing his job to the standards expected. Maybe Xabi is familiar with that line, given that he runs a film club?

My point is that, yes, Xabi fulfils his duties on the pitch. But when you sign a contract, surely youíre undertaking to do other things as well? One aspect of being a professional has got to be leaving personal differences at the door. Iíve never had a boss that I was friends with. Some of them have been sheer dickheads. But, like most people, Iíve had to leave that aside because I need to work to earn a living. Footballers on the other hand, as Xabi says, wonít be unemployed whatever happens. Maybe thatís the problem. Real Madrid, Liverpool, whatís the difference? Well, none to Xabi if he moves there clearly, other than the fact that Pellegrini (who heís never met) ostensibly wants him more than Rafa (who's said he does want him), even though itís Perez thatís buying him. Confused? Yep, me too.

But if he does go, maybe heíll forgive a simple supporter like me if I donít respect, like, condone or tolerate his decision, but rather feel bitterly disappointed, crack open a bottle of vodka, toast the man for putting himself first, and remember one more time why I donít have heroes anymore.


Offline Corkboy

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #198 on: June 18, 2009, 10:27:31 PM »
Once again, Roy, this thread earns its wages. That's a thumping post, E2K.

Offline Bob Loblaw

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #199 on: June 19, 2009, 12:24:34 AM »
E2K, what can you say about him? First "discovered" him last year when he was posting on the Big Brother thread of all places. Always worth a read of his posts, all heartfelt and honest. Tough ol' read that one like.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 12:34:53 AM by Bob Loblaw »