Author Topic: 'Development Minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?  (Read 24201 times)

Offline Strawberry Fields

  • Pending....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,921
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #160 on: December 14, 2008, 04:07:30 pm »
MK, All I'm going to say is that I like your optimism. If you can tell me where you got it maybe I'll buy some for myself.
I believe my skepticism is very valid but I have nothing I can do about it, can't I?

BTW, another one with development minutes on his hands is Danny Guthrie who played 90 minutes and scored a goal in a 0-3 demolition of Portsmouth at Fraton Park. Oh! wait....

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #161 on: December 14, 2008, 07:31:24 pm »
Guthrie did very well by the sound of the radio commentary SF - nice assist and clinical finish.

they got a bargain (although the leg breaking assault v Stoke was a low point). great to see him do well.

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #162 on: December 19, 2008, 11:03:25 am »
just posted this elsewhere but it's been discussed here too so...

---

here's a passage from Paco Loret's biog of Rafa that rings a few bells with me... it describes things we've seen recently, and more pointedly it covers his use of Aimar... for me this maybe hints at the game time Babel will get in the new year.

if you've not read it by the way, it's well worth a read...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rafa-Benitez-Authorised-Biography-Lloret/dp/0954684370/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229684388&sr=8-1

---

As time passed Benitez won the support of the Valencia fans. He had gained credibility and, as his period at Mestalla progressed, few dared disagree with his decisions, especially concerning line-ups and substitutions.

But it wasn't always that way. At first he had battled against the incomprehension of the majority of the public and the critics. Amongst journalists bets were taken on match days before the final eleven were confirmed. The guesses were rarely right and some felt that all the week's work, attendance at training sessions at Paterna, personal assumptions and tips from third parties were useless. Predictions would come to nothing. There was always some surprise in the line-up, and the players were the first to be surprised. The manager maintainted his custom of announcing the team in the dressing room an hour and a half before the start of the match, after the players had got off the coach.

Aimar was his greatest problem, as he had been for Cuper. The Argentinian manager had been crucified for not including him in some of the games. Everybody clamoured for Aimar, they all wanted him in the first team. In their songs the fans put him on a pedestal along withthe incomparable Mario Kempes and the very fast Claudio Piojo Lopez, all three players from Argentina. Pablo Aimar had particular characteristics that needed gradual adaptation to the rhythm of the Spanish League. Cuper used him sparingly, so too did Benitez. Both were criticised. The directors also jumped on this bandwagon. The decision to sign the young star from River Plate had involved the biggest financial outlay in the history of the club and Valencia's precarious financial situation couldn't afford for this to be wasted. Aimar was a good investment, his value was rising, and he was considered a match winner, capable of influencing the outcome of a game. Javier Subirats, the man who had pushed through the contract of the up-and-coming star and the person who fought most to bring him to Valencia, also complained about the inflexibility of the coaches. Using a collective team system drowned out the indisputable talent of the player born in Rio Cuarto.

A tricky question and a difficult one to solve. It wouldn't be the only one.

October 2001, the first week of the League, Alaves were visiting Mestalla. The game was dull - no goals, no chances, just yawns. Valencia needed someone capable of putting the solid defence of the Alaves team, managed by Mane, under pressure.

The fans grew impatient as the second half went on. Everything continued as before. The terraces were clamouring for more strikers to be brought on. Time and time again Valencia crashed against the defensive wall of the visitors. Benitez didn't lose his composure and appeared impassive as the barrage rained down on him. Twenty minutes from the end he made the substitution that people were calling for; he took off the holding midfielder and put on a striker.

Far from satisfying the crowd their indignation increased. They felt that this substitution, which everyone had known for some time was needed, was too late. Benitez didn't flinch. Aimar, with the inclusion of a new attacker, turned the game upside down but the scoreboard remained unchanged. An explanation was given later. The substitution was pre-planned as it was believed that tiredness would begin to take its toll on the Basque players, who had been determined from the very first minute to prevent Valencia from scoring. Aimar could find more space in this context and capitalise on his strengths.

Benitez's explanations didn't convince many and they didn't hesitate to express their disapproval. If at home, faced with a strong defence, Aimar couldn't count on more backup in attack, how did Benitez intend to win this type of game - risks had to be taken?

That evening he was on a programme broadcast by Canal Nou called Minut a Minut and had an interesting conversation with Quique Sanchez Flores. It began in the studio and continued outside in a corridor where, for almost an hour, they put across their points. Benitez was looking for someone to whom he could explain his ideas openly. Quique, at that time a television commentator, was also a budding manager who was finishing his training and was curious to learn of Benitez's ideas in greater detail.

A few weeks later, the story was repeated in similar fashion. Another team with no great aspirations, Tenerife, ruined the afternoon at Mestalla in a carbon copy of the previous match, another 0-0 draw. There was unrest on the terraces and Benitez was the object of a rude gesture from one of his players of which he was unaware until he saw it a little later on television. He made a substitution, Vicente came on for Kily Gonzalez. The Argentinian international purposefully avoided the affectionate slap on the back from the manager as he made his way towards the bench. When asked about it, Benitez reacted as best he could, he didn't attach any great importance to it, but on the inside he was furious. Gonzalez paid for his lack of respect with some unexpected time on the substitutes' bench.

Benitez remained faithful to his beliefs and outside pressure didn't affect him too much. If anything it inspired him to look for convincing answers to the permanent bombardment he had to put up with every time that the natural substitute for Maradona - according to Diego Maradona himself - didn't come out on to the pitch at the start of the game. The fact was that Aimar was at his best in the final weeks of season when Valencia moved full steam ahead to comfortably take the League Championship. That's when the great Pablito came to prominence, the idol of the Valencia supporters, with memorable goals that won both matches against Tenerife and Deportivo, and with performances that will go down in history, like the second half against Espanyol at Mestalla. He was unanimously considered the key factor in their success. His freshness was due in part to his specific training plan - daily workouts at training sessions focused on improving his fitness and adapting it to the European rhythm of play. These produced the desired result. Aimar arrived at games bursting with energy and his performance matched his reputation. But not everybody agreed with Benitez's strategy. There were those who believed that Aimar should have spent more time on the pitch, arguing that if he had Valencia would have won the title sooner. We'll never know, but Aimar's best form since joining Spanish football was shown in those two and a half months.

Offline Strawberry Fields

  • Pending....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,921
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #163 on: December 21, 2008, 08:36:18 pm »
I think today we had a little victory thanks to Insua.
Hopfully more people will now know that the Cliché about age is correct. It really doesn't matter how old you are, it's how you play the game.

Now lets unleash Nemeth and Darby as well! ;D
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 08:40:10 pm by Strawberry Fields »

Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #164 on: December 22, 2008, 02:22:23 am »
here's a passage from Paco Loret's biog of Rafa that rings a few bells with me... it describes things we've seen recently, and more pointedly it covers his use of Aimar... for me this maybe hints at the game time Babel will get in the new year.

You know guys, I'm starting to think that Rafa has a long-term program/strategy in place for the team this season with regards to blooding youngsters/keeping senior players fresh.  Yesterday was the Nth time that Babel came on for Riera, and El Zhar for Keane, and finally N'Gog for Lucas/Masch.  We were chasing for 3 points, the 'normal' tactical substitution there would be to take off a midfielder for a striker and keep the remaining strikers on the pitch - instead we didn't deviate from the 'plan' and took off Riera, Keane and Lucas as scheduled.  For all the criticisms that Rafa tinkers with his tactics, it does seem that he has something else in mind on the horizon besides winning the game at hand...
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #165 on: December 22, 2008, 09:02:57 am »
edit - title changed on request by Strawberry Fields, as it's not looking at all comps, and not just the league...
Updated numbers... here goes...

Arsenal

Total 'development minutes'... 1477

Fabianski   13

Djourou    585
Hoyte      59

Ramsey     46
Wilshere   7

Bendtner   657
Vela       110


Chelsea

Total 'development minutes'... 477

Ivanovic   367

Stoch       10

Di Santo   80
Sinclair   20


Man Utd

Note - two games in hand

Total 'development minutes'... 1582

Evans      180
Rafael     453
   
Anderson   616
Nani       217
Possebon   43
Gibson      28
   
Welbeck     28
Manucho     17


Liverpool

Total 'development minutes'... 1139

Insua      180

Lucas      384
Babel      342
Plessis     45
   
N'Gog      89
El Zhar    99


Aston Villa

Total 'development minutes'... 23

Gardner      23

Note - have excluded Milner cos he's now plated 1285 minutes and he's a key player for them.

Spurs

Average age of players used in prem games is... 23.8
Total number of players used... 21
Total 'development minutes'... 3719
League points... 15

Bale       648
Gunter     127
Gilberto   45
   
Lennon     1064
Huddlestone   906
O'Hara     372
Boateng     15
    
Campbell   306
Giovanni   236

Note - I've included Bale as a 'developer', and I've excluded Corluka, but he's 22 (which surprised me). Should probably exclude Lennon now really eh?


Man City

Total 'development minutes'... 1866

Schmeichel   72
   
Onuoha     144
   
Gelson     310
Johnson     260
   
Jo           542
Evans      306
Sturridge   292
Etuhu       104

Offline nocturnalvin

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,627
  • Justice For The 96.
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #166 on: December 22, 2008, 09:36:11 am »
I think we would see alot more of Insua now, which is good news.

Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #167 on: December 28, 2008, 04:29:51 pm »
I just have this feeling - and maybe SF and Roy, you guys will disagree with me - that the conditions are right for us to see some real progress on the youth front this season.

;D  I had a feeling I'd be proved right, but not this soon.  Insua, Babel and Lucas are clocking in the minutes quite nicely now with our congested fixture list, plus we've got the FA Cup coming up in the next few weeks.  The real positive though is that they're being given opportunities in the Premier League, our main priority this season - it does indicate how much faith Rafa has in these players and they're all responding well to it.  Insua and Lucas in particular are rising to the challenge of becoming important squad members.  I hope Insua's emergence inspires the other reserves to keep their heads up.
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Strawberry Fields

  • Pending....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,921
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #168 on: December 28, 2008, 05:58:18 pm »
;D  I had a feeling I'd be proved right
Feeling the need for a pat on the back? :)

While it's good to see young players like Lucas and Babel starting and doing well it's their second season in the first team and they cost 16-17 million combined. The real "victory" is Insua who proved that age, big price tags and big reputation in a different league aren't so important.

Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #169 on: December 29, 2008, 06:44:36 am »
Feeling the need for a pat on the back? :)

While it's good to see young players like Lucas and Babel starting and doing well it's their second season in the first team and they cost 16-17 million combined. The real "victory" is Insua who proved that age, big price tags and big reputation in a different league aren't so important.

;D

It was also good to see (sort of) Guthrie being comprehensively outclassed in Newcastle's midfield by Lucas...maybe Rafa does know what he's doing with these transfers eh?  ;)
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline nocturnalvin

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,627
  • Justice For The 96.
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #170 on: December 29, 2008, 11:19:08 am »
;D  I had a feeling I'd be proved right, but not this soon.  Insua, Babel and Lucas are clocking in the minutes quite nicely now with our congested fixture list, plus we've got the FA Cup coming up in the next few weeks.  The real positive though is that they're being given opportunities in the Premier League, our main priority this season - it does indicate how much faith Rafa has in these players and they're all responding well to it.  Insua and Lucas in particular are rising to the challenge of becoming important squad members.  I hope Insua's emergence inspires the other reserves to keep their heads up.

Lucas has truly surprised me in the last two games.
Most people raved about his pass to Stevie, but it was the first-time volley pass with his left peg from defence to the left side. I was watching very poor streaming, so i figured it should be Babel he passed to. It almost set off another counter attack. That was really really good.

Babel, on the other hand, would continue to struggle i think. His application is just not right. I am not eloquent enough to express it perhaps, but it just looks like he wouldn't make the step up.

Offline hassinator

  • RAWK Funk Soul Brother
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,878
  • oot and proud
    • good egg hq
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #171 on: December 29, 2008, 12:06:12 pm »
i think babel just seems a bit lazy with his team work and that stands out in a benitez team perhaps more than anywhere.  still lets see how the season progresses.  the loret article reminded me of how i felt the season would go for babel in terms of him being used in the same way as aimar and to be fair to the lad he got a goal yesterday he just needs to get his finger out and do his defensive duty.

Offline Strawberry Fields

  • Pending....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,921
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #172 on: December 29, 2008, 02:25:04 pm »
;D

It was also good to see (sort of) Guthrie being comprehensively outclassed in Newcastle's midfield by Lucas...maybe Rafa does know what he's doing with these transfers eh?  ;)
Guthrie did set up Edgar's goal and had a cracking shot tipped over the bar by Reina.
There's a huge difference between playing against and playing with Liverpool.

Offline JP-65

  • FA/UEFA/FIFA are not fit for purpose
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,775
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #173 on: December 29, 2008, 02:29:42 pm »
Guthrie did set up Edgar's goal and had a cracking shot tipped over the bar by Reina.
There's a huge difference between playing against and playing with Liverpool.

Comprehensively outplayed....he looked like a kid in the company of adults out there

Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #174 on: December 29, 2008, 02:38:41 pm »
Guthrie did set up Edgar's goal and had a cracking shot tipped over the bar by Reina.
There's a huge difference between playing against and playing with Liverpool.

Against Lucas's 3 shots saved by Given (2 headers! it's good to have someone besides Kuyt and Sami offering an aerial option) plus the beautiful threaded pass for Stevie's 2nd goal.  Guthrie on the other hand - didn't even notice he was there.

Comprehensively outplayed....he looked like a kid in the company of adults out there

To be fair to SF, it is different playing for us.  However with the likes of Gerrard and Alonso in midfield, your class will quickly be shone up if you're a turd...and Lucas is starting to hold his own against 3 of the best in the business.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 02:41:08 pm by Manila Kop »
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline hassinator

  • RAWK Funk Soul Brother
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,878
  • oot and proud
    • good egg hq
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #175 on: December 29, 2008, 02:54:36 pm »

To be fair to SF, it is different playing for us.  However with the likes of Gerrard and Alonso in midfield, your class will quickly be shone up if you're a turd...and Lucas is starting to hold his own against 3 of the best in the business.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/2008/12/28/danny-guthrie-quit-liverpool-due-to-steven-gerrard-s-brilliance-115875-21001235/

something guthrie acknowledges himself in the mirror:

Danny Guthrie quit Liverpool due to Steven Gerrard's brilliance


By Brian Mcnally, sundaymirror.co.uk 28/12/2008

Steven Gerrard is among the best Premier League midfielders of this or any other campaign, according to former colleague Danny Guthrie.

And Magpies midfielder Guthrie has revealed that Gerrard's brilliance was the reason he decided his future lay away from Liverpool.

A £2.5million summer move to Newcastle followed the realisation that, withGerrard commanding the engine-room, Guthrie was never going to be anything more than a bit-part player at Anfield.

Guthrie, 21, who made only a handful of first-team appearances for Liverpool, goes head-to-head with the England star today determined to show that he has become an accomplished Premier League star.

Guthrie said: "Steven Gerrard is the top man. He came through the youth system the same way I did.

"Liverpool are very strong in midfield and it's difficult to get a game for a young lad so I made the decision tomoveonand play games. When Newcastle came in I saw that as a great opportunity.

"It kills me not to play.

Even though Liverpool wasmy club I couldn't stay there playing 10 games a season and still playing in the reserves at 21.

"From my youth team not one single player is still there now.

That is how difficult it is to make it at Liverpool.

"I have no regrets.

I learned a lot from Steven Gerrard. I wasonly18 when I went with the first team so it was a massive step up.

They've got top-class players all over the team and I learned my trade there.

Advertisement - article continues below »


"I think Stevie G is up there with Roy Keane and Patrick Vieira as the best ever Premier League midfielder.

He could be THE best, because he gets goals as well. For a midfielder to score as many goals as he does is incredible."

Guthrie, on target for Newcastle in Friday's defeat at Wigan, insists there was no rift with Reds boss Rafa Benitez.

He added: "Rafa said he thought it would be a good move for me because I wasn't going to play as much as I wanted at Liverpool.

He wished me all the best and he was great. I have total respect for him.

I took his advice, but I'd already made my decision.

"It's always disappointing when you've been at a club for years but every young player knows it might not work out. Going to Newcastle helped soften the blow."

Guthrie (below) believes a win over the title-chasing Reds would confirm their revival under Joe Kinnear.

But he believes dropped home points could come back to haunt his old club.

He said: "A good result against Liverpool will underline our improvement.

We've turned the corner in terms of putting some decent results together.

"I still think Liverpool can win the league. But they've let themselves down with dropped home points.

"After Christmas Manchester United and Chelsea will up the pace. I hope Liverpool can stay with them because this is the best chance they've had to win it for years."



Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #176 on: December 29, 2008, 03:00:29 pm »
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/2008/12/28/danny-guthrie-quit-liverpool-due-to-steven-gerrard-s-brilliance-115875-21001235/

something guthrie acknowledges himself in the mirror:

Danny Guthrie quit Liverpool due to Steven Gerrard's brilliance

Sound lad, it always strikes me how none of the players we get rid of have anything bad to say about Rafa or the other players.  For all the bull about Academy-Reserve politics and Rafa's single-minded attempt to sabotage youth promotion in Liverpool's ranks...none of them really come out and say "I was good enough but Rafa had it in for me".  Good for Guthrie as well if he's playing regularly for Newcastle, that's what he wanted.
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline hassinator

  • RAWK Funk Soul Brother
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,878
  • oot and proud
    • good egg hq
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #177 on: December 29, 2008, 03:08:37 pm »
Sound lad, it always strikes me how none of the players we get rid of have anything bad to say about Rafa or the other players.  For all the bull about Academy-Reserve politics and Rafa's single-minded attempt to sabotage youth promotion in Liverpool's ranks...none of them really come out and say "I was good enough but Rafa had it in for me".  Good for Guthrie as well if he's playing regularly for Newcastle, that's what he wanted.

agreed he was clearly the best of his bunch though zak whitbread seems to have enough in his locker to play in the premiership.

does anyone else think that its only now that we're likely to see the fruits of rafa's youth programme?  we have have insua coming into the first team and looking much more comfortable in the left back slot than a full italian international.  surely this is something to do with being drilled in how rafa wants his team to play and if we agree on that surely also it augurs massively well for the future?

Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #178 on: December 31, 2008, 04:57:53 pm »
Didn't know Simpson was loaned out to Milwall last season - what division are/were they playing at then?

Quote from: The Independent
West Brom sign Arsenal youngster
PA
Wednesday, 31 December 2008

West Brom have bolstered their strikeforce by signing Arsenal youngster Jay Simpson on loan for the rest of the season.

Simpson, 20, scored twice for a youthful Gunners side in their 3-0 Carling Cup victory over Wigan in November and is being allowed to leave the Emirates Stadium to gain first-team experience.

He had a highly successful loan spell with Millwall last term and could now feature for the Baggies in Saturday's FA Cup third-round clash with Peterborough.
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Strawberry Fields

  • Pending....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,921
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #179 on: December 31, 2008, 09:20:16 pm »
Didn't know Simpson was loaned out to Milwall last season - what division are/were they playing at then?
Finished 17th in League One.
This season they are currently 3rd, 5 points from second place MK Dons.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 09:22:00 pm by Strawberry Fields »

Offline Мерфи

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,684
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #180 on: December 31, 2008, 10:57:17 pm »
Sound lad, it always strikes me how none of the players we get rid of have anything bad to say about Rafa or the other players.  For all the bull about Academy-Reserve politics and Rafa's single-minded attempt to sabotage youth promotion in Liverpool's ranks...none of them really come out and say "I was good enough but Rafa had it in for me".  Good for Guthrie as well if he's playing regularly for Newcastle, that's what he wanted.

It beggars belief the number of times I see posters claiming "how badly Rafa has treated ............" (insert name of pet player here) - Yet in the end, I have seen not seen a quote from any players who have left the team saying that Rafa treated them badly.  It is almost universally recognized by all the players that Liverpool is full of class up and down the line up and in boot room.  It is very difficult to make it because there are so many class players looking to get time on the field.  It all about players being flexible to fit the many different tactical shift we go through, and the mentality to push your way into the first team.
Never argue with a fool . . . people may not know the difference .

Offline Strawberry Fields

  • Pending....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,921
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #181 on: December 31, 2008, 11:18:56 pm »
It beggars belief the number of times I see posters claiming "how badly Rafa has treated ............" (insert name of pet player here) - Yet in the end, I have seen not seen a quote from any players who have left the team saying that Rafa treated them badly.
Warnock had his say when he left and it surprises me when people really think that everyone who has something on their mind will come out and say it. Most show respect no matter what they think because they were brought up that way.

Offline Мерфи

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,684
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #182 on: January 1, 2009, 12:44:39 am »
Warnock had his say when he left and it surprises me when people really think that everyone who has something on their mind will come out and say it. Most show respect no matter what they think because they were brought up that way.

True, Warnock did have a little go.  However, most of his criticism was levied on the system that Rafa uses for choosing his team.  A system that kept the players on edge up to a few hours before kick off if they were going to be picked for the side.  But Warnock's comments I believe says it all.  He didn't have the mentality to handle playing in Rafa's system even when given his chance (he started 45 games in 2.5 years after not getting much of a shake under Houllier) -

“Even if you’d played really well one week, you never thought you would play the next,” Warnock said. “People were being rested in September and October and I just think that’s crazy. You don’t want to be rested at that stage of the season. I thought I needed to play week in, week out to improve myself as a player.

“But it was not just the team, it was the same with the squad as well. The squad used to go up on a Friday afternoon and you wouldn’t even know who was going to be in it. It was comical sometimes. No one would have a clue why certain people were not included but the manager would keep his reasons to himself.”

In the end - Rafa has treated all of the players exactly the same way.

---

To me there is a myth in football - that you need to be playing in every game to improve as a player.  To me, that is just a vanity.   This quote is trotted out by even the best players in the game - that they proved and improved the most on match. The fact is, in order to improve you must drill and train with a group of players.  You must find out each other tendencies, strengths and weakness.  You must find solutions to problems you will face on match day by placing yourselves in those situations - but the time for this is on the practice field and NOT in the game.  To be in the starting squad should be your reward for improvement, or your reward for having the ability to meet the managers tactics.  Matchday is not where you need to work out your FORM problems.  And to blame poor form on not being on the pitch enough during match day is sour grapes.

Every player wants the glory of trotting out on the field - But just because you think you are good enough - doesn't mean that you are.
Never argue with a fool . . . people may not know the difference .

Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #183 on: January 1, 2009, 10:14:14 am »
Arsenal's moving all these kids out on loan deals and we haven't heard anything yet about some of our 'senior' reserves.  I hope Mikel San Jose's move to Atletico Bilbao pushes through, and maybe Brouwer to Utrecht?  Newcastle's injury crisis is a good opportunity; they're looking for fullbacks and midfielders so it would give the likes of Darby and Plessis a good chance to prove themselves.

Quote from: The Guardian
Arsenal loan right-back Hoyte to Watford for rest of the season
• Right-back joins Hornets' fight against Championship drop
• Vicarage Road side extend loan deal for Chelsea's Bridcutt


    * Dominic Fifield
    * Wednesday 31 December 2008 16.38 GMT

Arsenal have loaned their highly-rated young right-back Gavin Hoyte to Watford for the remainder of the season. The 18-year-old is expected to be the first of many of the Premier League club's promising youngsters to be loaned out so they can gain valuable first-team experience.

West Bromwich Albion have agreed a deal to take the striker Jay Simpson, 20, on loan while the Dutch midfielder Nacer Barazite, 18, will remain at Derby County until the summer. Arsenal's manager, Arsène Wenger, hopes his players can progress by gaining senior experience away from the Emirates Stadium.

Hoyte, who joined Arsenal at the age of nine and has captained the reserves this season, recently signed a new long-term contract having impressed in the Carling Cup. He made his Premier League debut in a defeat at Manchester City in November and will now join Watford's attempt to pull away from the Championship relegation zone.

The Hornets have extended Liam Bridcutt's loan from Chelsea until the end of January after the youngster's impressive recent performances for Brendan Rodgers' side.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/dec/31/arsenal-watford
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #184 on: January 1, 2009, 10:22:41 am »
Warnock had his say when he left and it surprises me when people really think that everyone who has something on their mind will come out and say it. Most show respect no matter what they think because they were brought up that way.

I don't think you can make that generalization.  The world is predisposed towards ill-mannered people (just look at RAWK) and football is no different.  Just look at the amount of footballers complaining about their coaches in other teams/leagues vs. Liverpool.  In fact, the standard response to getting caught up in the supposed career-sabotaging conflict between the Academy and Reserves would be bitterness, resentment, and anger towards the culprits and the desire to bitch and moan about it...like whoever's feeding Dave Usher his source material, for example.
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Strawberry Fields

  • Pending....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,921
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #185 on: January 1, 2009, 11:19:03 am »
Liverpool legend Roger Hunt: I wouldn't have made it these days

Roger Hunt enjoyed the kind of career most players only dream of.

A Liverpool hero for over a decade, he plundered a remarkable 286 goals in 492 appearances.

The ruthless finisher,christened 'Sir Roger' by the Kop, fired Bill Shankly's side back into the First Division in 1962 and went on to win two titles plus the FA Cup in 1965.

His haul of 245 league goals remains a club record, while he was a key player in England's World Cup winning side of 1966. Yet the 70-year-old believes had he come along half a century later he may never have got his chance at the top level.

In 1958 he was plying his trade in non-league football when he attracted the attention of Liverpool scout Bill Jones while playing for Stockton Heath in the Mid-Cheshire League. Hunt was one of life's late developers and he fears with the current academy set-up in England, he would have been left on the scrapheap.

"They start them far too young these days," Hunt said.

"Clubs snap up kids at the age of eight or nine and end up getting rid of most of them which doesn't do their confidence any good.

"You can't possibly tell if a lad that young is going to be good enough. Physically, you don't know what he's going to be like when he's 15.

"These days if you are 18 or 19 then clubs don't want to know. They want you there long before that. Recently I wanted to get a trial at Liverpool for an 18-year-old lad I knew who played for Cheshire.

"I rang Academy coach Hughie McAuley but he wasn't in. I explained to the girl why I was ringing but she said: 'He's too old, he's got no chance here'. I couldn't believe it. What about those lads like me who blossom later?

"We used to get a lot of players from non-league football getting trials at the age of 17 or 18 and going on to become professional footballers.

"I was 20 when I signed for Liverpool. I don't think I would have had a chance of making it if I was around these days. I certainly wouldn't have enjoyed the career I had."

Hunt is concerned at the lack of local talent which has emerged from Liverpool's Academy over the past decade. However, he hopes that last month's Champions League match away to PSV Eindhoven when Stephen Darby, Martin Kelly and Jay Spearing all came off the bench, is a sign of things to come.

"Nobody has come through and established themselves in the side since Steven Gerrard and it's been far too long," he added.

"Liverpool won the FA Youth Cup in 2006 and 2007 but players haven't progressed. That's why it was terrific to see those three young lads come on in Europe.

"We've seen so many foreign players brought in by Rafa Benitez but it was great that he thought those three lads were good enough to give them a run out.

"It's important to have that local influence and you have to ensure Liverpool still have that after Gerrard and Jamie Carragher stop playing."

http://www.liverpoolbanter.co.uk/2009/01/liverpool-legend-roger-hunt-id.html

Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #186 on: January 2, 2009, 11:58:14 am »
Hatters close to Threlfall deal
Reds defender set for Stockport switch
Last updated: 2nd January 2009


Liverpool full-back Robbie Threlfall is poised to sign for Stockport, skysports.com understands.

Threlfall spent time on loan at Hereford earlier in the season and caught the eye with a series of impressive displays.

League One promotion hopefuls Stockport have been monitoring the player's situation for some time and it now looks as though a deal has been struck.

Threlfall suffered a broken metatarsal in September but is back to full fitness and looking to make a quick impact at Edgeley Park.

Stockport boss Jim Gannon is known to be keen to bring in a number of new faces in the transfer window, with Threlfall's capture unlikely to be the last in January.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11669_4732576,00.html
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline nocturnalvin

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,627
  • Justice For The 96.
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #187 on: January 2, 2009, 12:00:30 pm »
There should, hopefully, be a healthy discussion after Preston.
Though i think ironically, Insua could be "dropped" for Dossena.


Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #188 on: January 2, 2009, 12:03:05 pm »
I think Rafa indicated that he's playing Gerrard and Torres tomorrow, so I'm hoping it'll be a good blend of experience and youth.
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline nocturnalvin

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,627
  • Justice For The 96.
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #189 on: January 2, 2009, 12:20:45 pm »
I think Rafa indicated that he's playing Gerrard and Torres tomorrow, so I'm hoping it'll be a good blend of experience and youth.

El Zhar be given a run i hope....

Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #190 on: January 2, 2009, 12:26:44 pm »
El Zhar be given a run i hope....

Hoping to see El Zhar and Babel start, and maybe even Darby.  Dossena might be given a game though so no Insua (unless Doss has another stinker...).  There's also the hope that Hammill, Nemeth and Spearing may feature sometime during the game.  :)
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline nocturnalvin

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,627
  • Justice For The 96.
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #191 on: January 2, 2009, 12:30:19 pm »
Hoping to see El Zhar and Babel start, and maybe even Darby.  Dossena might be given a game though so no Insua (unless Doss has another stinker...).  There's also the hope that Hammill, Nemeth and Spearing may feature sometime during the game.  :)

Yeah Babel, he needs to start producing.
I doubt Nemeth would feature.
Never seen Hammil, so fingers crossed, even for a cameo.

Offline Strawberry Fields

  • Pending....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,921
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #192 on: January 4, 2009, 06:35:56 pm »
Updated following this weekend's FA Cup round...


Offline Mimi

  • Maguire!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,127
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #193 on: January 4, 2009, 07:31:34 pm »
Doesn't Insua have more starts than that?
"And Israeli aggression will continue unabated. BDS. Armed struggle. Peace talks. Protests. Tweets. Social media. Poetry. All are terror in Israel’s books.” Refaat Alareer
https://www.youtube.com/@refaatalareer9499

Offline Strawberry Fields

  • Pending....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,921
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #194 on: January 4, 2009, 07:39:52 pm »
Doesn't Insua have more starts than that?
In the cups? nope.
Crewe and Preston are the only games he started in.

Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #195 on: January 6, 2009, 05:18:31 am »
Since this is in essence a comparative thread, I thought I'd post this here.  Didn't know Wellbeck was a Manc by birth.

Quote from: The Telegraph
Manchester United young guns can match the golden generation, says Alex Ferguson
They may be as likely to hail from Rio as Salford, but Mr. Ferguson believes that his latest crop of youngsters can emulate the golden generation of the mid-1990s.
By Graham Chase
Last Updated: 5:53PM GMT 05 Jan 2009

Since Ferguson was blessed with Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, David Beckham, Gary and Phil Neville and Nicky Butt more than a decade ago, youth products have been thin on the ground at Old Trafford.

But while United have not been totally convincing so far this season, a highlight has been the emergence of several talented teenagers to supplement the experienced legs of Neville, Giggs and Scholes.

With Jonny Evans, 21, now established as United's trusted third choice centre-back behind Nemanja Vidic and Rio Ferdinand, Ferguson has been pleasantly surprised at the impressive performances of his new right-back Rafael da Silva, who arrived with twin brother Fabio from Fluminense in the summer.

The Scot admits he struggles to tell the difference between the 18-year-olds but had expected left-back Fabio, the captain of Brazil's Under-17 team, to be the first to be knocking on the door of the first team. However, Fabio has only recently recovered from a shoulder injury and it has been Rafael who has taken the limelight.

At times he looked rattled by Shaun Maloney in the United's 1-1 draw at Celtic, but otherwise his introduction into the Premier League has been seamless as he blends dogged defence with a desperate desire to get forward at every opportunity, and he is now ahead of Neville, who usurped Paul Parker all those years ago, and Wes Brown in Ferguson's thinking.

His outings may have been fleeting but Brazilian Rodrigo Possebon, 19, has also shown composure in midfield. Although they cost in the region of £35 million in the summer of 2007, Portuguese winger Nani, 22, and another Brazilian midfielder Anderson, 20, continue to impress when they are given the chance and Ferguson is also increasingly keen to use Manchester-born Danny Welbeck and Irish midfielder Darron Gibson.

Welbeck only recently turned 18 but Ferguson has never considered allowing the youngster out on loan and the striker has scored in his last two appearances for United, while Gibson highlighted his emergence with his first United goal in Sunday's 3-0 win over Southampton.

"They showed they have the quality and the temperament, Ferguson said. "They showed they are Manchester United players. Danny's still growing and can get a bit weak at some moments during games, but overall we're very pleased with him. He's got a good personality, he always enjoys playing. The potential is definitely there."

Intriguingly, Ferguson is also more bullish than ever about the strength in depth he has in the goalkeeper position. After his first three goalkeepers, the Scot has been impressed with Tom Heaton's form on loan at Cardiff and is also excited about the Germany Under-19 player Ron-Robert Zieler.
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #196 on: January 11, 2009, 07:13:30 am »
Seems like the Stamford Bridge clearance sale has begun.

Quote from: The Guardian
Chelsea ditch expensive foreign kids
    * Duncan Castles
    * The Observer, Sunday 11 January 2009

Chelsea have begun a clear-out of their underperforming youth ranks as the club attempt to refocus their academy recruitment efforts on young English talent. A large group of players caught in limbo between Luiz Felipe Scolari's senior squad and Chelsea's under-18 team have been made available for transfer or loan - with the club offering to subsidise their unusually high wages in some cases.

Having not played on loan to Portsmouth, Israel striker Ben Sahar has been moved to Dutch Eredivisie strugglers De Graafschap. Danish forward Morten Nielsen - whose father Benny was employed by the club as a scout - is close to joining Saint-Etienne on loan. Italian centre-back Vincenzo Camilleri may return to Reggina, while Portugal youth internationals Fábio Ferreira and Ricardo Fernandes have rejected transfers to Italy and Spain, despite Chelsea offering to pay off the remaining six months of their contracts in full. The futures of a number of English players on loan at lower-division clubs are also under consideration.

Signed before Frank Arnesen's multi-million-pound appointment as chief scout and director of youth development, Ferreira and Fernandes are at the low end of the wage scale at £85,000 a year. Many of Arnesen's recruits take home more than £150,000.

Embarrassingly, the Dane has spent much of his recent time attempting to move his lauded signings on. His failure to establish "the best youth development programme in the world" and produce a player a season for the first team, coupled with comments made about Roman Abramovich's straitened finances, have angered the owner and have led to Arnesen losing influence at Stamford Bridge.

Chelsea officials say the departures of certain youth players is a natural part of the academy assessment process, unconnected with efforts to economise. The club currently have 20 England youth internationals between the ages of 15 and 18, but are seeking to increase that number.

Scolari, meanwhile, has moved to assert his authority over the senior squad by handing out a list outlining a range of penalties to be exacted for ill-discipline. The punishments include fines of several hundred pounds for every minute a player is late for training or club travel, several thousand pounds for leaving the country without permission and others for breaching the dress code by wearing hats.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jan/11/chelsea-youth-team/
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #197 on: January 15, 2009, 05:02:40 pm »
Posted on the Xabi recovery thread, john_lfc got to watch one of the Melwood training matches and spoke to Hammill:

Was speaking to Adam Hammill, mate from school, hes deffo going back out on loan he said, maybe even abroad
Yeah he wants as much exp. as he can get

He doesn't know where he is off yet, might not even be abroad for deffo but its a possibility
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #198 on: January 16, 2009, 10:44:47 am »
It bothers me that we can't get similar 'satellite' relationships going with smaller/newly-promoted/promotion-chasing clubs.

Quote from: Sky Sports
Tigers agree Manucho deal
United striker heads to KC Stadium on loan
Last updated: 16th January 2009

Hull City have agreed a deal to sign Manchester United striker Manucho on loan for the rest of the season.

Manucho has yet to make an impact at Old Trafford since signing for the Premier League champions 12 months ago.

He spent the second half of last term on loan at Panathinaikos as he waited to secure a work permit to play for United.

The Angolan clinched a work permit at the start of this season and has so far made three substitute appearances for Mr. Ferguson's side.

The imposing forward will now be given the chance to build up his experience of English football by seeing out the season at the KC Stadium.

City boss Phil Brown will be hoping Manucho can emulate the impact made by Fraizer Campbell, who spent most of last term on loan from United.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_4800819,00.html#
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Manila Kop

  • TRYING HARD TO FIT IN OOTER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,540
  • The Greatest Fighter in the World
Re: 'development minutes' in all comps... how do we measure up?
« Reply #199 on: March 11, 2009, 09:24:24 am »
In light of Spearing's home debut last night, we should probably update this thread no?  ;)
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.