Author Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread  (Read 9806211 times)

Offline BrandoLFC

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99000 on: February 11, 2019, 07:56:15 PM »
Really interesting debate - thanks for that to all of you contributing for your insights.

POP - everything you say makes sense in most cases and most clubs. I think where others are disagreeing with you is that at a few clubs it just becomes a greater level of difficulty for that top class Academy player to come through. It's an extra challenge for the player at Man City, for instance, beyond what they'd have at Southampton. We know Pep Guardiola doesn't mind bringing through youth players when they're good enough - Pedro was cited above. But would Pedro have got a chance as a teenager if he was competing with the 20-25 year old versions of Sterling, Sane, Mahrez, the Silva brothers and Kevin de Bruyne? He might be considered such a good player that the club wouldn't want to release him, but he's not going to get a start in an important match.

Same with Harry Wilson, to bring it back to Liverpool. A lot of us think he's the best attacker we've produced in some time. But is he going to get games ahead of Salah or Mane?

You've said that players come through if they have the talent and the determination required (not an exact quote from you, excuse the paraphrase). Surely, though, it weakens the determination if they're not getting games and they can see little prospect of getting games because, good as the Academy player is, they're not as good as the guy getting the starts?

So Jadon Sancho has the determination, and decided he would do something about it. Another player might not. It will be interesting to see what happens what happens with Phil Foden. Will it ever happen that Pep, coming to Anfield, will say "Foden or de Bruyne/Silva today? Hmm, think I'll go with Foden."

I don't really understand what you're arguing here.  Wilson should get games over Mane and Salah just because he's from the Academy?  Foden should play when he's not better than De Bruyne or Silva?  The clubs see these players train for years yet we here know better?

Sancho is a great, and also extreme, example in that would anybody actually take him over Sterling or Sane?  So he moved on to a club where he could play regularly and it benefited all involved.  Happens every day to every player that can't play at the top level, there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't even know what to make of your Pedro example.  Pep played a 21 year old Messi and Pique while Busquets was 19 in a season in which they won La Liga and the CL.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99001 on: February 11, 2019, 08:00:30 PM »
My Nephew has been at an Academy for 9 years. My brother turned down Man City, Man Utd & Liverpool for different reasons who wanted him at the time.
He plays for his country in European competition.
He may make it, He may not - I'm not a coach, so haven't a clue. But it's great to see his development & he enjoy's playing.

Ultimately, that's what it's all about. If he's not the absolute standout player of his age group, then he needs to become a hard worker (if he isn't already) and get a ton of luck and/or contacts. There's more chance of a solid career in football from the academies then there is of playing for one of the bigger clubs as a starter (statistically). But ultimately, it comes down to their own enjoyment, motivation and experience. There used to be a saying - we're not coaching players, we're coaching future coaches. Kids like your nephew may or may not make it, but they'll learn the process that might help them to help someone who will, in the future. The overall experience of being an elite youth player is worth it. The chances of being a top starter are statistically small. So it's always best to look at it from a holistic point of view than to look at it specifically about getting the big contracts at the big clubs.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99002 on: February 11, 2019, 08:03:28 PM »
I don't really understand what you're arguing here.  Wilson should get games over Mane and Salah just because he's from the Academy?  Foden should play when he's not better than De Bruyne or Silva?  The clubs see these players train for years yet we here know better?

Sancho is a great, and also extreme, example in that would anybody actually take him over Sterling or Sane?  So he moved on to a club where he could play regularly and it benefited all involved.  Happens every day to every player that can't play at the top level, there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't even know what to make of your Pedro example.  Pep played a 21 year old Messi and Pique while Busquets was 19 in a season in which they won La Liga and the CL.

I would have taken Sancho over everyone at that club he looked like an obvious world beater and better than any other English player not named Rooney at the same age.. in recent years.

Offline stevo7

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99003 on: February 11, 2019, 08:13:56 PM »
Ultimately, that's what it's all about. If he's not the absolute standout player of his age group, then he needs to become a hard worker (if he isn't already) and get a ton of luck and/or contacts. There's more chance of a solid career in football from the academies then there is of playing for one of the bigger clubs as a starter (statistically). But ultimately, it comes down to their own enjoyment, motivation and experience. There used to be a saying - we're not coaching players, we're coaching future coaches. Kids like your nephew may or may not make it, but they'll learn the process that might help them to help someone who will, in the future. The overall experience of being an elite youth player is worth it. The chances of being a top starter are statistically small. So it's always best to look at it from a holistic point of view than to look at it specifically about getting the big contracts at the big clubs.

Thanks for feedback. His head is screwed on and he lives at home. Seeing his development since travelling abroad with his country has been interesting.
Ste Gerrard had a go at him when his team played Liverpool, so he can't be doing too much wrong. Although I hope he doesn't end up at Rangers.

Offline BrandoLFC

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99004 on: February 11, 2019, 08:18:57 PM »
I would have taken Sancho over everyone at that club he looked like an obvious world beater and better than any other English player not named Rooney at the same age.. in recent years.

If that means you'd stop fellating over Hazard then I'd have to agree as well ;)

Offline KingKolo

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99005 on: February 11, 2019, 09:57:37 PM »
Sorry, lads/lasses. But having been involved in player development for nigh on 20 years, having worked with youth players who went on to be professionals and internationals in a few cases, I can say with a good measure of certainty, that most here have a really idealised and incorrect view of elite youth development. Truly top class players aren't held back. They are, in fact, promoted quite readily. The sad truth is that most players in the academy level will only ever have good and steady careers. Some will have great careers but will be "water-carriers" for the teams they end up playing for (not unskilled, but not the standout player in a top team, either). And then a small percentage will become all-time greats. And a further percentage will drop out of the game altogether, or become coaches instead of players.

But for anyone to sit here and say that just because youth academy players aren't getting their chance at City, or Chelsea, or whoever, that they are not ever going to reach their full potential, and that we won't know a Messi unless they are given a run of games, is naive at best. We ALWAYS know that player. They ALWAYS stand out. Whether they become a great is largely up to their professionalism and dedication and ability to turn talent into consistency (see the aforementioned Robinho, but also Balotelli for a more polar extreme example). But they were never "hidden" behind 2 or 3 inferior, but senior, players at their clubs. They were obvious talents. Barca didn't sign Messi up on a napkin in Argentina on the flip of a coin. They saw what he could become with the right guidance. They didn't take all of his youth team-mates as well, just in case it was the coaching that made Messi great at that age. They took Messi. Here is a good article about Barca signing Messi. When you see that player, you know. You don't know how far they'll go, but you know that they have the tools to go far if they apply themselves: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/oct/15/lionel-messi-barcelona-decade

It's all relative. Academy players in general stand out from their local peers, and that's why they become Academy players. Then in the Academy, they stand out from their team-mates, so they get to play up an age when allowed. Then they stand out from their select peers who get to play up an age, and they train with the first team squad. Then they stand out from the squad players, so they get put on the bench. Then they stand out from the bench players, so they get a start. Then they stand out from the starters, so they get a run. Then they stand out from the league, and they become a transfer target. Then they stand out from the opposition, and they become a great.

Everyone's progress is measured on that ladder just there, and everyone has an upper limit. It's not like players go home and do nothing from game to game, and then just turn up an hour before kick-off and the manager has to guess who is capable of what. They are constantly being informed by their staff of the progress of the Academy players in training, and if anyone stands out, they will be urged to have a look at them, and if they like what they see, they have them work with the first team, and if they stand out in first team training, they get minutes. That's the process. No manager is going to come across a top class Academy player, watch them turn the starters inside out (or mark them out of a training game), and then say "You know what? I don't need that player. Keep him with the other kids". My mind boggles that anyone would think it was different than that.
Much of what you're saying makes lots of sense, obviously, but I do think you have to look at the cases of Foden and Sancho as counter examples.

Sancho is clearly an elite level talent, but City have Sterling, Mahrez and Sane.
Foden won the golden ball at the FIFA U17 World Cup (if that's not standing out in the way you describe, I don't know what is), but City have KDB, the Silvas and Gundogan.

The pathway is blocked for those two elite talents. One of them has gone elsewhere for games and is flourishing, and the other has stayed put and is making cameo appearances.

It's not just City either. Ademola Lookman is another one. He was much better off in Germany than he is at Everton. I'm sure Hudson-Odoi would have benefitted from games too if he'd been allowed to leave Chelsea.

These players need to be playing proper competitive senior football at 18/19/20. If they spend those years playing U23 and making do with sporadic League Cup games, their careers will suffer. As I've said a fair bit on this thread (to the irritation of many), I massively do not believe in the U23 league as a breeding ground for top level talent.

And whilst your Messi/Balotelli/Mbappe/Vinícius Júnior type talents are all fast-tracked into first teams because they're so ridiculously good at an early age, you surely know as well as I do (if not better) that players can develop later and still reach an elite level.

Andy Robertson is arguably the best left-back in the league now. He wasn't getting fast-tracked anywhere at the age of 17.

Job Flanagan was never and will never be an elite talent, but during the 13/14 season he was thrown in at the deep end, sink or swim. He swam (somehow), nearly won the league and even made an England squad.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 10:00:47 PM by KingKolo »

Offline stevo7

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99006 on: February 11, 2019, 10:05:08 PM »
snip
I don't know what country you are from.  Do you support Corbyn?

Offline BrandoLFC

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99007 on: February 11, 2019, 10:30:25 PM »
Much of what you're saying makes lots of sense, obviously, but I do think you have to look at the cases of Foden and Sancho as counter examples.

Sancho is clearly an elite level talent, but City have Sterling, Mahrez and Sane.
Foden won the golden ball at the FIFA U17 World Cup (if that's not standing out in the way you describe, I don't know what is), but City have KDB, the Silvas and Gundogan.

The pathway is blocked for those two elite talents. One of them has gone elsewhere for games and is flourishing, and the other has stayed put and is making cameo appearances.

It's not just City either. Ademola Lookman is another one. He was much better off in Germany than he is at Everton. I'm sure Hudson-Odoi would have benefitted from games too if he'd been allowed to leave Chelsea.

These players need to be playing proper competitive senior football at 18/19/20. If they spend those years playing U23 and making do with sporadic League Cup games, their careers will suffer. As I've said a fair bit on this thread (to the irritation of many), I massively do not believe in the U23 league as a breeding ground for top level talent.

And whilst your Messi/Balotelli/Mbappe/Vinícius Júnior type talents are all fast-tracked into first teams because they're so ridiculously good at an early age, you surely know as well as I do (if not better) that players can develop later and still reach an elite level.

Andy Robertson is arguably the best left-back in the league now. He wasn't getting fast-tracked anywhere at the age of 17.

Job Flanagan was never and will never be an elite talent, but during the 13/14 season he was thrown in at the deep end, sink or swim. He swam (somehow), nearly won the league and even made an England squad.

What are you even trying to argue?  That youth players don't get chances yet you're bringing up ones that do?

Sancho - club wouldn't guarantee him playing time so he didn't sign a new contract and went to a club that would guarantee him minutes.  What's the issue with that?
Foden - No idea what the club is promising, probably that D. Silva has only a year or two left?  So he signed a new contract which is a risk for both him and the club as he's clearly not better than D. Silva or he'd be playing
Lookman - He's getting minutes in the first team in the league, isn't that what you are saying should happen?
Robertson - He wasn't a PL academy player, what are you even arguing?
Flanagan - Got his chance, was fine but clearly not good enough long term for whatever reason
Hudson-Odoi - Do you think Bayern are going to play him more than Chelsea if he isn't of the required level?  LOL

Offline fucking appalled

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99008 on: February 11, 2019, 10:47:16 PM »
Flanagan didn’t get thrown in during 13/14 anyway, he got his debut a few years before
I believe the average spend will go up £5 ahead and that’s being very conservative. So that’s £185k. Then you have a new 25k who will spend £10 a head that’s £250k. This is without the massively enhanced hospitality areas.

Offline trimore

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99009 on: February 11, 2019, 11:38:28 PM »

Sancho is clearly an elite level talent, but City have Sterling, Mahrez and Sane.

That actually sounds like a, well not exactly terrible, but far from an optimal deal for City. They should never have bought Mahrez, kept and used Sancho as the backup for Sterling and Sane and spent the Mahrez money on a proper replacement/deputize for Fernandinho at DM and got him in this season. Luckily for us they didn't. 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 11:42:44 PM by trimore »
"There is no magic formula, no mystery about Anfield, it's just down to pure talent. Bob Paisley epitomises that and I am amazed that people who ought to know better, do not accept the fact." Clough

Offline Maldini

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99010 on: February 12, 2019, 12:02:21 AM »
Sancho left because he didn't want to be back-up

Offline trimore

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99011 on: February 12, 2019, 12:16:47 AM »
Sancho left because he didn't want to be back-up

That's great for us and Dortmund. But to me that's a slightly disappointing attitude from a young player if true. He would have got plenty of minutes as City are competing on all four fronts, as Mahrez and Bernardo Silva's playing times have shown. I'd like to think whatever marginal additional minues he gains at Dortmund isn't worth giving up the chance to learn from experienced pros like Aguero, De Bruyne and David Silva day in, day out over a season or more.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 12:35:24 AM by trimore »
"There is no magic formula, no mystery about Anfield, it's just down to pure talent. Bob Paisley epitomises that and I am amazed that people who ought to know better, do not accept the fact." Clough

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99012 on: February 12, 2019, 01:06:02 AM »


Andy Robertson is arguably the best left-back in the league now. He wasn't getting fast-tracked anywhere at the age of 17.


He was a 1st team regular at aged 17/18,pretty unusual for a defender.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99013 on: February 12, 2019, 01:40:35 AM »
To the coaches - How often do you see someone be amazing in training, but it simply doesn't translate to real game minutes? Or the opposite? They don't really stand out, but due to injuries, are thrown into the deep end, hold their own and become first choice after a consistent run of good games?

Anyone believe Trent would've got his run-in if Clyne was fit? If yes/no... Why?

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99014 on: February 12, 2019, 09:00:20 AM »
That's great for us and Dortmund. But to me that's a slightly disappointing attitude from a young player if true. He would have got plenty of minutes as City are competing on all four fronts, as Mahrez and Bernardo Silva's playing times have shown. I'd like to think whatever marginal additional minues he gains at Dortmund isn't worth giving up the chance to learn from experienced pros like Aguero, De Bruyne and David Silva day in, day out over a season or more.

Marginal additional minutes? He's played nearly 1700 minutes and counting for Dortmund this season. He'd have needed to play like Garrincha to approach 600 or 700 at Man City. To describe a player's attitude as disappointing if they want to play football matches is absolutely ludicrous.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 09:03:02 AM by Gerry Attrick »

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99015 on: February 12, 2019, 10:04:50 AM »
The cream will rise to the top.

But PoP you're being dismissive if you don't think an individual clubs current situation can't impact that or prohibit it from happening.

Pogba was and is elite, he was ready for first team football at united and all and sundry knew it. But Rafael got games at CM ahead of him along with Park Ji Sung and a retired only to be resurrected old man Scholes.

So he had to leave least he risk wasting his talent watching less talented footballers from the stands.

It happens. It will happen more often than is desirable under a manager like Mourinho and a club like Chelsea for the very specific and very situational specifics of a manager and/or a club placing much more emphasis on immediate results and therefore place much more trust in senior players they know rather than risk a talented but inconsistent teenager.

Pogba, Sancho, any number of Real Academy graduates and so on, its really not that short a list. They all had to leave their clubs to realise their potential. It's a sliding doors moment ultimately, neither of us can sit here and claim to know for sure how things pan out for Pogba if he stays at United. If he languishes or succeeds because ultimately that scenario didn't come to pass.

We do know however that these players, their advisors, they knew something had to give and that they were more ready than the opportunities being provided.

You look at someone like Loftus Cheek and there's a clearly top level talent there, PL and International quality talent. But his lack of first team games is hampering both his career and his improvement. That's the flipside of the coin if you don't remove yourself from such a situation. 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 10:06:47 AM by Cpt_Reina »

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99016 on: February 12, 2019, 01:17:23 PM »
Pogba left united due to money, not playing time,  though.
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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99017 on: February 12, 2019, 01:47:31 PM »
If you say so.

Offline HopefulRed

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99018 on: February 12, 2019, 02:22:15 PM »
interesting article with Barry Lewis (LFC U18 manager) talking about his squad.  I saw it in the Echo. 

https://www.goal.com/en/news/gerrards-cousin-the-scouse-german-and-meet-liverpools-next/hxe540f7d1lz1tegjs55wktvw

Offline Tobelius

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99019 on: February 12, 2019, 02:40:23 PM »
interesting article with Barry Lewis (LFC U18 manager) talking about his squad.  I saw it in the Echo. 

https://www.goal.com/en/news/gerrards-cousin-the-scouse-german-and-meet-liverpools-next/hxe540f7d1lz1tegjs55wktvw

Thanks for this mate,interesting read  :)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99020 on: February 12, 2019, 03:10:22 PM »
If you say so.

I don't - Raiola (his agent), does:


Quote
Paul Pogba was then a teenage hopeful at Manchester United. He hadn’t broken into the first team and Raiola told him he was underpaid, but added that perhaps he ought to stay anyway, especially as United had a “fantastic manager”, Alex Ferguson. However, in 2012 Raiola asked United for a better contract. He breaks into English to recount the negotiations:

Ferguson to Raiola: I don’t talk to you if the player is not here. Raiola: Get the player out of the locker room and sit him here. Pogba enters. Ferguson to Pogba: You don’t want to sign this contract? Pogba: We’re not going to sign this contract under these conditions. Ferguson to Raiola: You’re a twat.

Raiola was unfazed, partly because he didn’t know the word.

Raiola: This is an offer that my chihuahuas — I have two chihuahuas — don’t sign. Ferguson: What do you think he needs to earn? Raiola: Not that. Ferguson: You’re a twat.

- https://www.ft.com/content/548155cc-9bcf-11e6-b8c6-568a43813464

Ferguson on Pogba -

Quote
"I mean if we hold Pogba back, what's going to happen? He's going to leave. You know, in a couple of years' time when his contract is going to finish. So we have to give him the opportunity to see how he can do in the first-team and he's got great ability."

- Marshall, A; Sharrock, D (12 August 2011). "Boss set to promote Pogba". Manchester United F.C. Retrieved 12 August 2011.

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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99021 on: February 12, 2019, 03:25:59 PM »
Pogba on pogba

Ferguson had omitted Wayne Rooney, Jonny Evans and Darron Gibson after a night out and, lacking three injured central defenders, played Michael Carrick in the back four and selected a new central-midfield partnership of right-back Rafael da Silva and Park Ji-sung.

And Pogba told Canal+: "It was a very, very difficult moment for me because I was in love with Manchester and I was a Mancunian.

"It was the match against Blackburn in December 2011 at Old Trafford.

"Paul Scholes had retired, Darren Fletcher was injured. There was no one left to play in midfield. And I was training and I was beginning to get better bit by bit and the coach never stopped telling me, 'You're this far'.

"And I didn't understand. This far away from what? Playing? From having some playing time? From getting on the field? Or what?

"And there was Rafael in midfield and I was disgusted. I was disgusted and I didn't get on either."

United lost 3-2 to Blackburn with Pogba remaining an unused substitute and he said that day convinced him to leave Old Trafford.

http://en.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/276115.html

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99022 on: February 12, 2019, 03:27:53 PM »
Doesn't exactly sound like a lad who was assured of breaking in to that team regardless of the players in front of him.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99023 on: February 12, 2019, 03:38:23 PM »
Doesn't exactly sound like a lad who was assured of breaking in to that team regardless of the players in front of him.

Or maybe he's just a preening tit who thought a lot of himself, much like he is now.

Fact is, Ferguson is quoted as saying he wanted him in the first-team squad, and is also quoted as saying he didn't want to hold him back. Which is the point I made - managers don't "hold back" talents. Pogba's impatience doesn't disprove that.
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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99024 on: February 12, 2019, 03:50:08 PM »
He played 37 times, including 8 apps in the CL for Juve the next season and won the league.

He was ready and was being held back in favour of inferior players.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99025 on: February 12, 2019, 03:56:27 PM »
He played 37 times, including 8 apps in the CL for Juve the next season and won the league.

He was ready and was being held back in favour of inferior players.

Ferguson says he wasn't. Ferguson was the one picking the team.
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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99026 on: February 12, 2019, 04:01:21 PM »
He was wrong then wasn't he.

And he might have continued to be wrong to not play Pogba possibly indefinitely.

Cos essentially the notion of the cream rising to the top is predicated on the selection whims of one man, the players manager.

...unless of course the player removes himself from that situation as Pogba and Sancho did.

Offline trimore

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99027 on: February 12, 2019, 05:23:36 PM »
Marginal additional minutes? He's played nearly 1700 minutes and counting for Dortmund this season. He'd have needed to play like Garrincha to approach 600 or 700 at Man City. To describe a player's attitude as disappointing if they want to play football matches is absolutely ludicrous.

If what PoP is saying is true and the star players are obvious and easy to pick out before in the youth set up before they ever kick a ball in the first team then no, I don't think Sancho had to play like Garrincha to get 600 to 700 at Man City when Mahrez has over 1200 and counting for City. I really don't know why you would find that ludicrous? Like a single young forward with no experience but loads of obvious talent has never helped a team win trophies before.
 
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Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99028 on: February 12, 2019, 06:30:55 PM »
I can see the different points of view being discussed, but if you look at life and say that all talents in all the fields are given clear path/enough opportunities, then it's plain delusion. Life has never been like that. A lucky few get their chances to expose their talents. I'm not in the game like PoP is, but if you apply what you know about the world to football, then you'd think there'd be sufficient obstacles in front of you even if you've 'talent'.

Coaches maybe good in recognizing talents, but they're not Gods. To claim there are no lost talents at the top level in football is extremely reaching for me, and it's simplistic to conclude if you're talented enough, you'll make it. It works in some cases, it doesn't because there're plenty of obstacles to get to the top, there's going to be politics, there's going to be money - so there's going to be agents & clubs and negotiations, there's going to be influences, wrong advises, lack of opportunities and so on and on factors at play. Are these factors not in football? I don't know. I just see it to be a case by case individually. You got two talents, you'll have different coaches guessing who'd be the elite one at that age, but there's every chance that both of them will make it, or only one of them will make it, or neither will. Who knows? To say every coach will agree which of the two will make it or know to predict make it seem like they're Gods, and I know they are not. Apply that to 100s of players these coaches see and then someone claiming each & every one of the predictions that these coaches make are agreed between them and spot on about everybody at that age, just sounds insane and out of this world to me.

There're going to be lost talents in football and there have been plenty before. I'm very sure of it.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 06:37:00 PM by PoetryInMotion »

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99029 on: February 12, 2019, 06:51:42 PM »
I can see the different points of view being discussed, but if you look at life and say that all talents in all the fields are given clear path/enough opportunities, then it's plain delusion. Life has never been like that. A lucky few get their chances to expose their talents. I'm not in the game like PoP is, but if you apply what you know about the world to football, then you'd think there'd be sufficient obstacles in front of you even if you've 'talent'.

Coaches maybe good in recognizing talents, but they're not Gods. To claim there are no lost talents at the top level in football is extremely reaching for me, and it's simplistic to conclude if you're talented enough, you'll make it. It works in some cases, it doesn't because there're plenty of obstacles to get to the top, there's going to be politics, there's going to be money - so there's going to be agents & clubs and negotiations, there's going to be influences, wrong advises, lack of opportunities and so on and on factors at play. Are these factors not in football? I don't know. I just see it to be a case by case individually. You got two talents, you'll have different coaches guessing who'd be the elite one at that age, but there's every chance that both of them will make it, or only one of them will make it, or neither will. Who knows? To say every coach will agree which of the two will make it or know to predict make it seem like they're Gods, and I know they are not. Apply that to 100s of players these coaches see and then someone claiming each & every one of the predictions that these coaches make are agreed between them and spot on about everybody at that age, just sounds insane and out of this world to me.

There're going to be lost talents in football and there have been plenty before. I'm very sure of it.

I think you're probably right when it comes to mid-level talents. There are probably any number of players who spend their careers at a lower level than they are capable of, too. But the gap between the average academy player, and someone who can make an impact at a side competing for the title in the toughest league on Earth (tm) is huge. People could see it with Sterling. I think if anything the risk is that you get too many false positives there. You can see a kid who looks amazing for his age group, but once he moves up to the first team, he just hasn't got that extra something to get him through. Or he fails to reach his potential for various reasons.

And yes, there is a question of opportunity. You have to be better than whatever is in front of you to play, so the quality of what you are behind is crucial. Rickie Lambert would never have got a game if he had been kept on at Liverpool, but by moving down the leagues he was able to show what he could do. Ultimately, he was not good enough to be a starter for us. Maybe we got it right. But the whole loan system is built on this idea. The lads playing at Rangers, in another world they could be Rangers academy players. They would be getting the same games up there that they are not going to get here. Does that ultimately improve their chances of playing for us? The jury is still out on that one. We send a lot of players out on loan, and while it definitely helps us to move them on, and them to put themselves in the shop window, are they getting experience that will actually help them to make it at Liverpool? Or is it just Lambert again? Proving they can do it at a lower level does not mean that they are more likely to do it where we really want to see it.
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Online Sinyoro

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99030 on: February 12, 2019, 06:53:02 PM »
interesting article with Barry Lewis (LFC U18 manager) talking about his squad.  I saw it in the Echo. 

https://www.goal.com/en/news/gerrards-cousin-the-scouse-german-and-meet-liverpools-next/hxe540f7d1lz1tegjs55wktvw

Barry Lewtas.

Thanks for posting

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99031 on: February 12, 2019, 06:54:30 PM »
I don't think anyone said there are no lost talents in the game. I certainly didn't. I said that true top class talent doesn't get held back, because they're game changing potential is easy to see. What they do with it, is up to them, but my point which I thought I made clear earlier, is that as long as a young player is impressing in training and working hard and I'd better than the experienced players in front of them, they will get their chance. They also have to be physically and emotionally ready to be in that level of game. Managers aren't that stupid. If they think a player will get them wins, they'll play them.

Edit - I do like your post, though, PiM! It makes sense in a broader picture for sure
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99032 on: February 12, 2019, 07:03:18 PM »
Or maybe he's just a preening tit who thought a lot of himself, much like he is now.

Fact is, Ferguson is quoted as saying he wanted him in the first-team squad, and is also quoted as saying he didn't want to hold him back. Which is the point I made - managers don't "hold back" talents. Pogba's impatience doesn't disprove that.
It's not that managers hold them back, but at the top clubs there are two senior players for every position.

There's no hope of a youngster getting a chance without an injury. If that injury doesn't come, they've wasted a few years.

Players with the ability of Messi, Pogba etc will be fast-tracked, but what about those with top class potential rather than world class potential?

For example, it'll be interesting to see what happens with Adam Lewis, Alby Moreno, and any potential LB incomings this summer.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99033 on: February 12, 2019, 07:19:59 PM »
It's not that managers hold them back, but at the top clubs there are two senior players for every position.

I understand that, and see where people are coming from. What I'm saying, is that if the Academy player is better than the two in front of him, he will get starts. Managed starts, for sure, to protect his body, but starts nonetheless. The idea that a top class talented young player will regress JUST because there are two senior players in front of them, is the idea I'm arguing against. It's not the numbers, it's the relative talent and ability.

Quote
There's no hope of a youngster getting a chance without an injury. If that injury doesn't come, they've wasted a few years.

Again, I disagree. There's also a drop in form, or that youngster just destroying everyone in training. That player will get a chance, regardless of injuries or lack of them.

Quote
Players with the ability of Messi, Pogba etc will be fast-tracked, but what about those with top class potential rather than world class potential?

For example, it'll be interesting to see what happens with Adam Lewis, Alby Moreno, and any potential LB incomings this summer.

I thought I was clear in my distinction, but evidently I wasn't - I already mentioned those players. I said those might struggle to get minutes. I am arguing strictly against the blanket statement that "Top class" academy players are "held back" at top clubs. I am old and cynical at this point about development. I say "if the player isn't getting minutes, then maybe they aren't actually as good as their competition in the first team"

A lot of youth players flatter to deceive at the youth levels in terms of stepping up to first team - they are perfect for their own age group because their physical prowess helps them to dominate. But the step up to senior football catches them out, because at that level everyone has physical prowess. There was a study done that showed that the early developers who usually stand out up age 18 have less impact on first team football than the late developers who are physically dominated at their youth age groups but develop speed of play as compensation, and then step up ready for first team football because they can think and play quicker than their taller, older age-group peers. That's why the FA Youth Cups and the FIFA Youth World Cups are bad indicators of future talent for the most part.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99034 on: February 12, 2019, 10:04:05 PM »
I understand that, and see where people are coming from. What I'm saying, is that if the Academy player is better than the two in front of him, he will get starts. Managed starts, for sure, to protect his body, but starts nonetheless. The idea that a top class talented young player will regress JUST because there are two senior players in front of them, is the idea I'm arguing against. It's not the numbers, it's the relative talent and ability.

Again, I disagree. There's also a drop in form, or that youngster just destroying everyone in training. That player will get a chance, regardless of injuries or lack of them.

I thought I was clear in my distinction, but evidently I wasn't - I already mentioned those players. I said those might struggle to get minutes. I am arguing strictly against the blanket statement that "Top class" academy players are "held back" at top clubs. I am old and cynical at this point about development. I say "if the player isn't getting minutes, then maybe they aren't actually as good as their competition in the first team"

A lot of youth players flatter to deceive at the youth levels in terms of stepping up to first team - they are perfect for their own age group because their physical prowess helps them to dominate. But the step up to senior football catches them out, because at that level everyone has physical prowess. There was a study done that showed that the early developers who usually stand out up age 18 have less impact on first team football than the late developers who are physically dominated at their youth age groups but develop speed of play as compensation, and then step up ready for first team football because they can think and play quicker than their taller, older age-group peers. That's why the FA Youth Cups and the FIFA Youth World Cups are bad indicators of future talent for the most part.
Sorry, it's easy to lose track of what certain people are saying precisely, with all the various replies on here. I agree with pretty much all of this.

My issue is with stockpiling of talent and the level of competition in U23 football.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99035 on: February 12, 2019, 10:11:15 PM »
Sorry, it's easy to lose track of what certain people are saying precisely, with all the various replies on here. I agree with pretty much all of this.

My issue is with stockpiling of talent and the level of competition in U23 football.

I agree, it is immoral what some clubs are doing. My input was solely about the reality of football development rather than the ideal. Managers lose their jobs over their player selections, so a young player would have to be shit hot to force their way in. But a player of that calibre is not going to be impeded by a manager who will usually do anything to ensure points on the board.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99036 on: February 12, 2019, 10:16:14 PM »
I agree, it is immoral what some clubs are doing. My input was solely about the reality of football development rather than the ideal. Managers lose their jobs over their player selections, so a young player would have to be shit hot to force their way in. But a player of that calibre is not going to be impeded by a manager who will usually do anything to ensure points on the board.
I do think we currently have a manager in place who will give youth a chance, when it's warranted.

As long as Klopp's in charge, I can't imagine us in a situation like the one Chelsea have with Hudson-Odoi (for example).

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99037 on: February 12, 2019, 10:42:58 PM »
I do think we currently have a manager in place who will give youth a chance, when it's warranted.

As long as Klopp's in charge, I can't imagine us in a situation like the one Chelsea have with Hudson-Odoi (for example).

Well we nearly lost Brewster last summer and perhaps only his terrible injury kept him at lfc.  Crazy to think he’d contemplate rushing off to a Germany to get more game time when he was going to be out until at least Christmas. 

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99038 on: February 13, 2019, 01:18:11 PM »
That's great for us and Dortmund. But to me that's a slightly disappointing attitude from a young player if true. He would have got plenty of minutes as City are competing on all four fronts, as Mahrez and Bernardo Silva's playing times have shown. I'd like to think whatever marginal additional minues he gains at Dortmund isn't worth giving up the chance to learn from experienced pros like Aguero, De Bruyne and David Silva day in, day out over a season or more.


He was ready for top flight football at 16, he waited a year, got no games and left for his own benefit. I don't see any problem with it at all. He's a generational talent who could become the best in the world, he was right not to wait around for City to realise that. He and Foden were just about in the same position of progress when he left, since then Foden has only started less than a handful of meaningless cup games while Sancho is arguably the best prospect in Europe.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99039 on: February 13, 2019, 02:16:45 PM »
He was ready for top flight football at 16, he waited a year, got no games and left for his own benefit. I don't see any problem with it at all. He's a generational talent who could become the best in the world, he was right not to wait around for City to realise that. He and Foden were just about in the same position of progress when he left, since then Foden has only started less than a handful of meaningless cup games while Sancho is arguably the best prospect in Europe.

Agreed.

If anything, it shows a good attitude in my book.

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