Author Topic: Anfield Road Redevelopment  (Read 199464 times)

Online Craig 🤔

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #960 on: April 13, 2018, 01:44:02 PM »
Having stood on the ARE and then graduating to the Kop at the age of 9 and also learning the hard way to always stand with a barrier at your back by nearly being crushed to the point of passing out once on the Kop I'm not in favour of standing at all. In light of what happened at Hillsborough and the Taylor report I never want to see us return to any kind of standing ever again. Quite simplly it isn't safe and never will be in the sort of volumes on stadium terraces. Celtic are trialing it here in Glasgow but only small scale and it still doesn't look safe.

The argument that people are standing up anyway in defiance of stewards or rules is easily dealt with, identify the culprits and give them a warning about their conduct, if they chose to ignore it then ban them. It really is that simple as for "safe standing" sorry no, no, never again, not ever!

Have you even looked at it properly? As describing it as a terrace would suggest you haven't. Given there are barriers every 2 rows of people there is no chance of a crush situation.

Offline Roady

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #961 on: April 13, 2018, 02:03:24 PM »
Having stood on the ARE and then graduating to the Kop at the age of 9 and also learning the hard way to always stand with a barrier at your back by nearly being crushed to the point of passing out once on the Kop I'm not in favour of standing at all. In light of what happened at Hillsborough and the Taylor report I never want to see us return to any kind of standing ever again. Quite simplly it isn't safe and never will be in the sort of volumes on stadium terraces. Celtic are trialing it here in Glasgow but only small scale and it still doesn't look safe.

The argument that people are standing up anyway in defiance of stewards or rules is easily dealt with, identify the culprits and give them a warning about their conduct, if they chose to ignore it then ban them. It really is that simple as for "safe standing" sorry no, no, never again, not ever!

I understand it is a delicate subject. But to just pick you up on your very last sentence. We have never had safe standing before. It is a completely new concept and nothing like old terraces.
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #962 on: April 13, 2018, 02:15:25 PM »
Having stood on the ARE and then graduating to the Kop at the age of 9 and also learning the hard way to always stand with a barrier at your back by nearly being crushed to the point of passing out once on the Kop I'm not in favour of standing at all. In light of what happened at Hillsborough and the Taylor report I never want to see us return to any kind of standing ever again. Quite simplly it isn't safe and never will be in the sort of volumes on stadium terraces. Celtic are trialing it here in Glasgow but only small scale and it still doesn't look safe.

The argument that people are standing up anyway in defiance of stewards or rules is easily dealt with, identify the culprits and give them a warning about their conduct, if they chose to ignore it then ban them. It really is that simple as for "safe standing" sorry no, no, never again, not ever!

Load of crap mate. To say "quite simply it isn't safe" is a stupid thing to say before it's been tried,,especially when in theory it looks as though there's every chance it would be safe.
And as for your last paragraph I will not respond for fear of being given a lengthy ban.

Offline Macred

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #963 on: April 13, 2018, 02:20:54 PM »
Safe standing petition https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040

Any logical analysis would suggest that rail seating/standing is safe. It would take one person with the force of one person to push over an iron rail before they can push the person ahead of them i.e. physically impossible.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #964 on: April 13, 2018, 02:22:44 PM »
lads the guy has reservations about it. i dont think he should be vilified (for the want of a better word) for saying so, it could stem from a pretty traumatic experience he had when he was 9

he probably doesnt understand safe standing 100% but given his experience he shouldnt be abused over it
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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #965 on: April 13, 2018, 02:26:02 PM »
Having stood on the ARE and then graduating to the Kop at the age of 9 and also learning the hard way to always stand with a barrier at your back by nearly being crushed to the point of passing out once on the Kop I'm not in favour of standing at all. In light of what happened at Hillsborough and the Taylor report I never want to see us return to any kind of standing ever again. Quite simplly it isn't safe and never will be in the sort of volumes on stadium terraces. Celtic are trialing it here in Glasgow but only small scale and it still doesn't look safe.

The argument that people are standing up anyway in defiance of stewards or rules is easily dealt with, identify the culprits and give them a warning about their conduct, if they chose to ignore it then ban them. It really is that simple as for "safe standing" sorry no, no, never again, not ever!

I also the the Anny and then Kop, puked my guts up v Ipswich after getting crushed against a barrier, celebrating a goal and puking at the same time is tough. I used to be against it, but having seen the safe standing layout and having gone arse over tit at different grounds while celebrating, I'm now all for it. We moved our seats from the Kemlyn to 306 so we could stand and sing, I'd much rather do it with a proper rail to lean on.

Offline redprodigal

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #966 on: April 13, 2018, 02:31:10 PM »
lads the guy has reservations about it. i dont think he should be vilified (for the want of a better word) for saying so, it could stem from a pretty traumatic experience he had when he was 9

he probably doesnt understand safe standing 100% but given his experience he shouldnt be abused over it

I don't think it's fair to say he's been abused.

Offline Kop Kenny

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #967 on: April 13, 2018, 02:32:22 PM »
Have you even looked at it properly? As describing it as a terrace would suggest you haven't. Given there are barriers every 2 rows of people there is no chance of a crush situation.

Yes I have looked at it properly and descibing it as a "terrace" is exactly what it is with the addition of a waist height thin steel barrier. The definition of a terrace is... "A terrace or terracing in sporting terms refers to the traditional standing area of a sports stadium, particularly in the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland."
As I clearly stated in my previous comment they have this at Celtic park here in Glasgow, so yes decribing it as a terrace would suggest I'm entirely accurate in that description.

Roady I totally agree it's an emotive subject and having seen 60,000 Celtic fans jumping up and down and going mental with a good proportion of them "half cut" and only that low barrier to stop them tumbling over I still don't think it is anywhere near as safe as seating. Each of us is entitled to our view on the topic and for me it will always be no going back.
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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #968 on: April 13, 2018, 02:36:15 PM »
I don't think it's fair to say he's been abused.
"And as for your last paragraph I will not respond for fear of being given a lengthy ban." seemed you were heading that way when you said that.

granted you stopped short
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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #969 on: April 13, 2018, 02:36:57 PM »
Having stood on the ARE and then graduating to the Kop at the age of 9 and also learning the hard way to always stand with a barrier at your back by nearly being crushed to the point of passing out once on the Kop I'm not in favour of standing at all. In light of what happened at Hillsborough and the Taylor report I never want to see us return to any kind of standing ever again. Quite simplly it isn't safe and never will be in the sort of volumes on stadium terraces. Celtic are trialing it here in Glasgow but only small scale and it still doesn't look safe.

The argument that people are standing up anyway in defiance of stewards or rules is easily dealt with, identify the culprits and give them a warning about their conduct, if they chose to ignore it then ban them. It really is that simple as for "safe standing" sorry no, no, never again, not ever!
I understand your concerns. But this could never happen with safe standing...  that’s the point of it.  It’s safer than the current system with no chance of crushing.

I must say, I used to have the same opinion as you, but after learning more about it,it’s just... safe
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Online Craig 🤔

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #970 on: April 13, 2018, 02:39:06 PM »
Yes I have looked at it properly and descibing it as a "terrace" is exactly what it is with the addition of a waist height thin steel barrier. The definition of a terrace is... "A terrace or terracing in sporting terms refers to the traditional standing area of a sports stadium, particularly in the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland."
As I clearly stated in my previous comment they have this at Celtic park here in Glasgow, so yes decribing it as a terrace would suggest I'm entirely accurate in that description.

The problem is you're using a word which has a pretty well defined, and emotive, definition in the UK. The definition of a terrace, accepted by most, would be a relatively large open standing area with sporadic barriers.

Safe standing does not, in any way, shape or form, fit this definition.

It has barriers every 2 standing rows (every 1 seating row) and the most people who could stand behind you before there is a barrier is 1. So there is no chance of a crush situation like on terraces of old that you've described you've been on yourself - the likes of which hold as much comparison to safe standing as current seated areas do (i.e. none).

This isn't some new idea either. They've been in use in Germany for years upon years and been shown to be incredibly safe.

Offline Al 666

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #971 on: April 13, 2018, 02:49:12 PM »
I understand your concerns. But this could never happen with safe standing...  that’s the point of it.  It’s safer than the current system with no chance of crushing.

I must say, I used to have the same opinion as you, but after learning more about it,it’s just... safe

It does have it's drawbacks though. It is much harder to regulate the number of fans in each area than it is with one seat one fan. Increasing the density of the crowd also increases the potential for crushing when you are leaving the Stadium especially if the most popular areas have become overcrowded.

I agree it is safer but there are still potential pitfalls and the potential for things to go wrong at a faster pace.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #972 on: April 13, 2018, 02:54:16 PM »
It does have it's drawbacks though. It is much harder to regulate the number of fans in each area than it is with one seat one fan. Increasing the density of the crowd also increases the potential for crushing when you are leaving the Stadium especially if the most popular areas have become overcrowded.

I agree it is safer but there are still potential pitfalls and the potential for things to go wrong at a faster pace.

Those same problems occur when people stand in seated areas though - which is what happens now and seems pretty hard to prevent.

Offline Al 666

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #973 on: April 13, 2018, 03:19:29 PM »
Those same problems occur when people stand in seated areas though - which is what happens now and seems pretty hard to prevent.

Agreed Craig but surely the solution to not being able to control fans properly is not to pack even more of them into a stand. I agree that inherently safe standing is safer than what we have now but only if you can trust the Stewards to enforce the rules and the fans to comply with the rules, neither of which occur at present.

Personally I think it is a leap of faith to expect fans not to overcrowd the most popular areas and for Stewards to prevent them from doing so.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #974 on: April 13, 2018, 03:27:20 PM »
Agreed Craig but surely the solution to not being able to control fans properly is not to pack even more of them into a stand. I agree that inherently safe standing is safer than what we have now but only if you can trust the Stewards to enforce the rules and the fans to comply with the rules, neither of which occur at present.

Personally I think it is a leap of faith to expect fans not to overcrowd the most popular areas and for Stewards to prevent them from doing so.

Sometimes it's safer to work with a problem to make it safer (persistant standing) than to try to stop it - which clearly isn't working given it's been a problem since standing was stopped in the early 90's.

For all the 100's of games which have used safe standing across the world, it seems to have proven it's a very safe option.

The thing with overcrowding is it's really not that possible beyond maybe the odd few extra. I mean it's a fairly limited two step, one seat space and you're not likely to get loads of people within that area.

Offline Al 666

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #975 on: April 13, 2018, 03:43:16 PM »
Sometimes it's safer to work with a problem to make it safer (persistant standing) than to try to stop it - which clearly isn't working given it's been a problem since standing was stopped in the early 90's.

For all the 100's of games which have used safe standing across the world, it seems to have proven it's a very safe option.

The thing with overcrowding is it's really not that possible beyond maybe the odd few extra. I mean it's a fairly limited two step, one seat space and you're not likely to get loads of people within that area.

It is going to be the central areas that are most likely to become overcrowded though. Which means you will have lots of overcrowded areas trying to escape at the same time through the central exits.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #976 on: April 13, 2018, 04:30:59 PM »
It is going to be the central areas that are most likely to become overcrowded though. Which means you will have lots of overcrowded areas trying to escape at the same time through the central exits.

Have you any examples of this being a problem in any of the hundreds (thousands?) of German games that have featured safe standing, or in any of the games where it has featured in the UK so far?

Offline Sons of pioneerS

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #977 on: April 13, 2018, 05:44:12 PM »
I got crushed many times on the old Spion Kop. I remember my arm actually bending in the crush in the middle long before the derby in '76 had even started. Despite that, I loved the experience of it all. Thing is, safe standing is a world away from all that. Personally, I feel it would actually be a lot safer than the current situation. Unless the whole crowd acts like a theatre audience (will never happen) there will always be people getting up and down. People will always celebrate and jump around. In comparison, safe standing actually looks like a no-brainer.

I'd actually love LFC to lead the way on this, but I absolutely understand why they won't. It seems that there are systems now where standing can be employed in a very safe and secure manner. It's light years away from the old-style terrace. It might also mean friends can actually stand together once more and the often sterile atmosphere at our grounds might just improve too. Football, for better or worse, is part of the entertainment industry, and the industry needs to know and understand its 'customers'. The most passionate parts of any fanbase will never behave like theatre-goers. For those areas of a ground where the most passionate gather, safe standing is surely much safer than the current situation. Of course, many will disagree, but that's just my own feelings on it.
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Offline Keith Lard

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #978 on: April 13, 2018, 07:46:07 PM »
Load of crap mate. To say "quite simply it isn't safe" is a stupid thing to say before it's been tried,,especially when in theory it looks as though there's every chance it would be safe.
And as for your last paragraph I will not respond for fear of being given a lengthy ban.

He's not speaking a "load of crap". The guy is entitled to have his view (which he expressed politely), and he has experience of what it was like back in the day. Don't mean to jump down your throat too and I'm sure you're a good guy (we can all get heated on here now and then, myself included), but I don't think what you posted was fair to KK.

For the record, I'm in favour of widespread safe standing trials (not a full scale implementation until it's carefully tested in the UK over a full season or two, and in extreme game situations) but completely understand why many are against it.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 07:48:11 PM by Keith Lard »
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Offline Al 666

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #979 on: April 13, 2018, 07:58:42 PM »
Have you any examples of this being a problem in any of the hundreds (thousands?) of German games that have featured safe standing, or in any of the games where it has featured in the UK so far?

Stadium disasters Craig.

 1902 - Ibrox Park, Glasgow - 25 are killed and 517 injured when the West Stand collapses during an international between England and Scotland. The game ends in a 1-1 draw but is later erased from official records.

1946 - Burnden Park, Bolton - 33 die and 500 are injured when a wall collapses during a cup tie between Bolton and Stoke.

1955 - Santiago, Chile - Six people died when 70,000 tried to jam into the stadium for the finals of the South American soccer tournament. Argentina beat Chile 1-0.

1964 - Lima, Peru - More than 300 fans die in a riot during an Olympic qualifying match between Argentina and Peru.

1967 - Turkey - A disallowed goal in a Turkish game provokes a riot in which 41 die and 600 are hurt.

1968 - Buenos Aires, Argentina - 74 die after a match between River Plate and Boca Juniors when fans, trying to escape burning newspaper being thrown down from an upper tier, rush towards a gate pushed shut by fans on the other side, unaware of them.

1971 - Ibrox Park, Glasgow - 66 people die in a crowd crush near the end of a match between Celtic and Rangers. The incident occurs when fans leaving the stadium are met by a group trying to return after hearing that Rangers had scored an equaliser.

1971 - Cairo, Egypt - Crowds attempting to enter a match at Zamalek Stadium break down barriers and a wall, leading to 48 deaths and 50 injuries.

1981 - Piraeus, Greece - 24 people die in a stampede as fans rush to leave the ground.

1982 - Moscow, USSR - Up to 340 people are crushed to death when fans leaving the stadium try to re-enter the stands after a last-minute goal in a UEFA Cup tie between Moscow Spartak and Dutch side Haarlem at the Luzhniki stadium, according to Sovietsky Sport. The government newspaper Izvestia puts the death toll at 66.

1982 - Cali, Colombia - 24 people die and 250 are hurt when drunken fans provoke a stampede at a match.

1982 - Algiers, Algeria - A concrete roof at a stadium collapses, killing 10 spectators.

1985 - Valley Parade, Bradford - A fire, which started in rubbish underneath a stand, kills 56 fans.

1985 - Brussels, Belgium - 39 fans, mostly Italians, die in rioting before the European Cup final between Liverpool and Juventus at the Heysel Stadium.

1988 - Kathmandu, Nepal - A stampede towards locked exits in a hailstorm at Nepal's national soccer stadium produces the country's worst civilian disaster when 70 fans are killed.

1989 - Hillsborough, Sheffield - 96 people are killed and at least 200 injured in Britain's worst sports disaster after a crowd surge crushes packed fans against barriers at the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest.

1992 - Bastia, France - At least eight people are killed and 400 injured when a crowded temporary stand collapses at a match between Bastia and Marseille.

1996 - Lusaka, Zambia - Nine soccer fans were crushed to death and 78 others injured during a stampede following Zambia's victory over Sudan in a World Cup qualifying game.

1996 - Guatemala City, Guatemala - 84 people died and about 150 others were injured during a stampede at a stadium before a World Cup qualifying match between Guatemala and Costa Rica.

1997 - Lagos, Nigeria - Five fans were crushed to death and more than a dozen were hospitalised when, following Nigeria's 2-1 World Cup qualifying victory over Egypt, the crowd of 40,000 head for exits only to find three of the five main gates locked.

2000 - Monrovia, Liberia - Three people suffocated to death and others were injured as thousands of fans forced their way into an overcrowded stadium for a World Cup qualifier between Liberia and Chad.

2000 - Harare, Zimbabwe - 13 fans died after police fired tear gas into a crowd estimated at 50,000 to quell growing unruliness. The fans were killed in the stampede exiting the stadium.

2001 - Johannesburg, South Africa - At least 43 people were killed, including two children, and 155 injured during a league match between Kaiser Chiefs and Orlando Pirates at an overcrowded soccer stadium. People outside tried to push into Ellis Park stadium and were trapped against barbed wire. Police had earlier fired tear gas at people stampeding outside the stadium.



You will notice none of those disasters happened in Germany. So given they didn't have problems with old fashioned terraces why would they have problems now.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #980 on: April 13, 2018, 08:01:26 PM »
Well without going into what caused those Al all you've done is post a list which doesn't really add to anything and is miles from answering what I asked.

So to ask once again, you specify some rather specific problems that could occur from safe standing - so from the thousands of games involving safe standing can you point to this happening at all?

Offline Al 666

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #981 on: April 13, 2018, 08:20:45 PM »
Well without going into what caused those Al all you've done is post a list which doesn't really add to anything and is miles from answering what I asked.

So to ask once again, you specify some rather specific problems that could occur from safe standing - so from the thousands of games involving safe standing can you point to this happening at all?

It does add something Craig.

If you can't come up with incidents in Germany that showed old fashioned terraces in were not safe then we would have to conclude that old fashioned terraces were safe. We both know that is false. Citing what happens in Germany and then somehow saying we will have the same thing in this country is a massive leap of faith and ignores one huge thing fan culture.

There is a massive difference between fan culture here and in Germany. You only have to look at the difference in fan behaviour for a start. In Germany Clubs are owned by the fans, there is far more self policing and the authorities are far better at from an organisational point of view.

Those reasons for me are why Germany hasn't suffered the Stadium disasters we have and why we shouldn't assume that what works in Germany will automatically work here. If you follow that line of thought then why not have no speed limits on motorways here cos it works in Germany.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #982 on: April 13, 2018, 08:52:43 PM »
So I'm going to take that as a no that you can't find any instance of the situations you have suggested could happen, actually happening?

Offline Al 666

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #983 on: April 13, 2018, 09:31:34 PM »
So I'm going to take that as a no that you can't find any instance of the situations you have suggested could happen, actually happening?

As I said Germany has never had a problem with standing so how could I find any instances ?

https://footballawaydays.wordpress.com/2010/12/09/the-safe-standing-debate/

Culture

German stadium expert Professor Gunter Pilz believes that standing is a part of the nation’s football culture and he rejects the argument that it’s unsafe.

“We have never had safety problems with standing in Germany,” he told BBC Sport.

“Standing is part of German football culture and there is no evidence at all that it is more dangerous than sitting.

“You can’t sing and make a good atmosphere when you are sitting. And German fans like to be able to move around during a game. Sometimes fans move around more during the game than some of the players.”
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Maldini

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #984 on: April 13, 2018, 10:11:47 PM »
Yes I have looked at it properly and descibing it as a "terrace" is exactly what it is with the addition of a waist height thin steel barrier. The definition of a terrace is... "A terrace or terracing in sporting terms refers to the traditional standing area of a sports stadium, particularly in the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland."
As I clearly stated in my previous comment they have this at Celtic park here in Glasgow, so yes decribing it as a terrace would suggest I'm entirely accurate in that description.

Roady I totally agree it's an emotive subject and having seen 60,000 Celtic fans jumping up and down and going mental with a good proportion of them "half cut" and only that low barrier to stop them tumbling over I still don't think it is anywhere near as safe as seating. Each of us is entitled to our view on the topic and for me it will always be no going back.

The barriers are at chest height, nobody is tumbling over them unless they're one of the giants from Game Of Thrones. A stand seat at ankle height however is an absolute menace.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #985 on: April 13, 2018, 10:16:27 PM »
The barriers are at chest height, nobody is tumbling over them unless they're one of the giants from Game Of Thrones. A stand seat at ankle height however is an absolute menace.

The ones at Celtic aren't, they look just below waist height.


Offline Butcher Knife Roberto

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #986 on: April 13, 2018, 10:33:14 PM »
The ones at Celtic Park are nearly identical to the ones I stood in at Orlando City in the States last summer. Felt entirely safe, was rigorously monitored, plenty of space and a really great atmosphere. I'd much rather have a decent safe standing space for 90 minutes than having to sit with my knees being jabbed by the seat in front of me, or having to get up every few minutes to let someone out for a piss. I completely understand if people have reservations about them, absolutely, but really they are a vast, gargantuan improvement on the old terraces that we all know were frankly a death trap.

Offline redprodigal

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #987 on: April 13, 2018, 11:11:04 PM »
He's not speaking a "load of crap". The guy is entitled to have his view (which he expressed politely), and he has experience of what it was like back in the day. Don't mean to jump down your throat too and I'm sure you're a good guy (we can all get heated on here now and then, myself included), but I don't think what you posted was fair to KK.

For the record, I'm in favour of widespread safe standing trials (not a full scale implementation until it's carefully tested in the UK over a full season or two, and in extreme game situations) but completely understand why many are against it.

Fair enough mate, no problem with that.
Though I too know what it was like back in the day and I also escaped the Leppings Lane with sore ribs and bruises and emotional scars that lasted a long time and I honestly believe that he is wrong to say "it quite simply isn't safe" and also that those of us who stand on the kop should be banned.

Offline Macred

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #988 on: April 14, 2018, 09:16:12 AM »
Are not the rail seating that any change allows on a 1 to1 basis so no increase in capacity at all and each fan is allocated a 'seat' as now. In fact, there is nothing to stop a club installing a rail seat of the type that Celtic have and putting the seat in a locked down position - it is a seat after all - if a rail is put in front of it to prevent people falling over - that is a good safety step. I have done that on teh Kop when I am just trying to get to my seat, I have big feet and clumsy and trying to squeeze past people... easy to trip.  You fall over the row in front as there is nothing to prevent it. There is no logic to the argument to say it is not safer. If I fell forward I grab a rail or a waist height barrier prevents me falling into the person in the seat in front. If I did fall into the person in front then it is like dominoes potentially; that will not happen with a rail.

Furthermore, you can not replicate the crush effect of a 'traditional' terrace which rail seating is not. In a traditonal terrace, you can have 10's or even 100's people behind you with no obstacle between each person allowing the person at the back to bare down on the person in front... until the person at the front, stuck against the bar has nowhere to go. 1 person can not hold back 100 pushing them. But if each person had a bar that does not have to be that big, just strong enough to stop one person being able to move it, in front of them, then the problem is eliminated.

Photo Id cards, HD CCTV, and proper stewarding will prevent people standing where they want.... it is no different to sitting where you want. If someone is in your spec get them to move or the stewards remove them.  Even if you had pay on the gate,the technology exosts ith digital imaging to take an instant image as you pass through a turnstile, print it out on a ticket, and to store the image - if you have to pay with a card - then they have you name etc and connect the two i.e. there is nothing that you can get away with that would not allow you to be identified and then excluded if that was necessary.

The point is, it is a different world from when I could pay on the gate, nobody knew who I was and I could stand were i want... usually on the edge of a barrier so I could jump into a surge and get sucked all the way to the front and the float all the way to the back. And CCTV back then in black and white could barely make me out. That will not happen with rail seating. Would be better if they could do 1.5 to 1 but unlikely. 

It looks like the momentum of the petition has peaked at about 50,000 could be lack of publicity for it. So maybe fans don't want safe standing anyway... and tory girl was right it is just a vocal minority.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #989 on: April 14, 2018, 11:16:28 AM »
Right, back to the ARE developments.  What are the predictions in terms of how long these will be adequate for?  Like a short-, medium-, or long-term solution?
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Offline Macred

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #990 on: April 14, 2018, 02:15:58 PM »
Right, back to the ARE developments.  What are the predictions in terms of how long these will be adequate for?  Like a short-, medium-, or long-term solution?

Sorry, what do you mea, how long what will be adequate for?

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #991 on: April 14, 2018, 10:54:02 PM »
Curious and I don’t know the answer to this:

Have there been any instances of crushing in Scotland since the current system for standing areas have been built? There have been disasters in Scotland from crushing previously, so I think this is more relevant to the discussion than Germany (as stated their culture is different). I see your point to “fans jumping and going mental and being half-cut”. But is that just saying that there is a possibility they may fall over? Or is it actually leading to injuries or crushing? Going mental at matches won’t stop, and it seems that this is a safer way to handle that than having people potentially falling over seats. Higher barriers might be better, but this would be an issue when the area seems are used for seating.

Also: to the point about crushes while fans enter and leave the stands: it seems this could be prevented if sufficient entry/exit points are included. Especially if these are separated so there is less risk of fans going opposite directions at one point. I was thinking something like nyc subway where there are additional exits compared to entrances at busiest stations.

I do think the issue of barriers being too low is significant, however it seems that is an even worse problem with seats and persistent standing.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #992 on: April 14, 2018, 11:02:33 PM »
Curious and I don’t know the answer to this:

Have there been any instances of crushing in Scotland since the current system for standing areas have been built? There have been disasters in Scotland from crushing previously, so I think this is more relevant to the discussion than Germany (as stated their culture is different). I see your point to “fans jumping and going mental and being half-cut”. But is that just that they may fall over? Or is it actually leading to injuries or crushing? Going mental at matches won’t stop, and it seems that this is a safer way to handle that than having people potentially falling over seats. Higher barriers might be better, but this would be an issue when the area seems are used for seating.

Also: to the point about crushes while fans enter and leave the stands: it seems this could be prevented if sufficient entry/exit points are included. Especially if these are separated so there is less risk of fans going opposite directions at one point. I was thinking something like nyc subway where there are additional exits compared to entrances at busiest stations.

I do think the issue of barriers being too low is significant, however it seems that is an even worse problem with seats and persistent standing.

I think it is abundantly clear that safe standing at a ratio of 1:1 is safer than the current arrangements. The problems arise when you try to push that ratio higher. Personally I would welcome a trial at 1 standing place to 1 seat. However that isn't as simple as it sounds. There is a pretty significant cost associated with converting to safe standing plus theoretically tickets should be cheaper for fans to stand than to sit. That leaves very little incentive for Clubs to bring it in.

Then if you look at the ARE if you were to look at accommodating fans at a higher ratio than 1:1 then you would need more gangways and more exits which leaves you with less space for fans. 
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline kopite321

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #993 on: April 15, 2018, 03:49:25 AM »
See his thread is totally fucked and off topic again...
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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #994 on: April 15, 2018, 03:50:24 AM »
or is it the safe standing thread now?
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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #995 on: April 15, 2018, 08:16:47 AM »
Can we stick to the topic please? There’s a safe standing thread already.
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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #996 on: April 15, 2018, 09:36:11 AM »
locked for the day
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