Author Topic: Straightening the Kop  (Read 46768 times)

Offline andy07

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #80 on: May 28, 2016, 08:48:10 PM »
Well at 53 now I remember the old Kop and have happy memories of those days.. So much so I moved from Belfast to live with my family in Bootle during the 70s for a few years.. Those days are gone and and won't return but as a tradition this club is famed for its Kop and thought with the expansion plans surely the club won't leave its most famous stand dwarfed by the rest of the stands?  Personally I'd love to see a 20,000 plus Kop stand and filled with people who want to sing/chant.. And thanks for the welcome mate

Expanding the Kop is not about financial return per bum on seat, it is a statement of intent.  18-20000 seats behind the goal should be the target and it is achievable.   The return to The Club in terms of vocal support and kudos far outweighs the financial factors.  This is about putting thousands of locals back where they should be at competitive prices.   With safe standing on part or whole the capacity will be 25000+.   Yes it will need a reroute of WBR or the road tunnelling under stand.    An opportunity to include facilities for the local community in the space beneath the stand too.
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Offline Laz

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #81 on: May 29, 2016, 08:32:18 AM »

Expanding the Kop is not about financial return per bum on seat, it is a statement of intent.  18-20000 seats behind the goal should be the target and it is achievable.   The return to The Club in terms of vocal support and kudos far outweighs the financial factors.  This is about putting thousands of locals back where they should be at competitive prices.   With safe standing on part or whole the capacity will be 25000+.   Yes it will need a reroute of WBR or the road tunnelling under stand.    An opportunity to include facilities for the local community in the space beneath the stand too.

It's a nice idealistic World you live in, but sadly it's not the real World. FSG are investors, they are not supporters. They will not invest money without a return on investment. Financially it makes no sense whatsoever to spend millions on re-routing WBR (even if it were allowed) and redeveloping the Kop... I think we need to get real about the situation. The Kop will remain exactly the same for many years to come, at least while FSG own the club.... I'm not having a go at FSG as we've lived through the Hicks & Gillett era who almost bankrupted the club so to have financially prudent owners is not a bad thing in my opinion.

Offline Ratboy3G

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #82 on: May 29, 2016, 09:45:47 AM »
It's a nice idealistic World you live in, but sadly it's not the real World. FSG are investors, they are not supporters. They will not invest money without a return on investment. Financially it makes no sense whatsoever to spend millions on re-routing WBR (even if it were allowed) and redeveloping the Kop... I think we need to get real about the situation. The Kop will remain exactly the same for many years to come, at least while FSG own the club.... I'm not having a go at FSG as we've lived through the Hicks & Gillett era who almost bankrupted the club so to have financially prudent owners is not a bad thing in my opinion.

This is correct. I think realistically the only change the the kop will be if safe standing comes in. After the Annie Road gets done it doesn't really make sense logistically or financially to rebuild or extend the kop.

I honestly couldn't care less what Spuds or any other club have built.
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Offline RedorRed

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #83 on: May 29, 2016, 11:00:55 AM »
In Skyscrapercity I've been saying for a while that the club should propose an idea to us fans.
The idea is that we create a new Uber Kop at the current Anfield Road End. We have plans to build at that end anyway.... We could go for a similar design que as the Main stand... Including a plinth. Under this plinth it would include a huge King Kenny Pub.... On all the time not just match days and the bar/restaurant at the top with views over the park. With the height increase of the roof everything needs to be done to keep the sound in. What this also means is we can then look to add an additional tier to the existing Kop in the future.
Could be put to a vote.... I know it's not part of tradition.... But we're staying st Anfield when we were looking to move completely, the all the stands have changed over the years... And the currently is of course not the original. My view is its the fans in the Kop that make it what it is not the bricks and mortar!!!

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #84 on: May 29, 2016, 11:07:22 AM »
In Skyscrapercity I've been saying for a while that the club should propose an idea to us fans.
The idea is that we create a new Uber Kop at the current Anfield Road End. We have plans to build at that end anyway.... We could go for a similar design que as the Main stand... Including a plinth. Under this plinth it would include a huge King Kenny Pub.... On all the time not just match days and the bar/restaurant at the top with views over the park. With the height increase of the roof everything needs to be done to keep the sound in. What this also means is we can then look to add an additional tier to the existing Kop in the future.
Could be put to a vote.... I know it's not part of tradition.... But we're staying st Anfield when we were looking to move completely, the all the stands have changed over the years... And the currently is of course not the original. My view is its the fans in the Kop that make it what it is not the bricks and mortar!!!

I think you want this thread:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=327269.0
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Offline andy07

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #85 on: May 29, 2016, 11:34:24 PM »
It's a nice idealistic World you live in, but sadly it's not the real World. FSG are investors, they are not supporters. They will not invest money without a return on investment. Financially it makes no sense whatsoever to spend millions on re-routing WBR (even if it were allowed) and redeveloping the Kop... I think we need to get real about the situation. The Kop will remain exactly the same for many years to come, at least while FSG own the club.... I'm not having a go at FSG as we've lived through the Hicks & Gillett era who almost bankrupted the club so to have financially prudent owners is not a bad thing in my opinion.

This is a very real world. We are Liverpool after all, if we really want to compete in the 2020s we need a serious statement of intent.   Re-routing WBR onto the wasteland behind The Kop is no big deal.
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Offline andy07

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #86 on: May 29, 2016, 11:46:20 PM »
In Skyscrapercity I've been saying for a while that the club should propose an idea to us fans.
The idea is that we create a new Uber Kop at the current Anfield Road End. We have plans to build at that end anyway.... We could go for a similar design que as the Main stand... Including a plinth. Under this plinth it would include a huge King Kenny Pub.... On all the time not just match days and the bar/restaurant at the top with views over the park. With the height increase of the roof everything needs to be done to keep the sound in. What this also means is we can then look to add an additional tier to the existing Kop in the future.
Could be put to a vote.... I know it's not part of tradition.... But we're staying st Anfield when we were looking to move completely, the all the stands have changed over the years... And the currently is of course not the original. My view is its the fans in the Kop that make it what it is not the bricks and mortar!!!

A mega Road End but only of you fill it with passionate Scouse youth like the late 70s.  That really would create a serious atmosphere.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #87 on: May 30, 2016, 07:46:12 AM »
This is a very real world. We are Liverpool after all, if we really want to compete in the 2020s we need a serious statement of intent.   Re-routing WBR onto the wasteland behind The Kop is no big deal.

It's not wasteland, it's scheduled for redevelopment:

http://www.anfieldproject.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Anfield_A4spreads_NEW-full-lowres.pdf

And it is a big deal.
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Offline andy07

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #88 on: May 31, 2016, 11:14:24 PM »
It's not wasteland, it's scheduled for redevelopment:

http://www.anfieldproject.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Anfield_A4spreads_NEW-full-lowres.pdf

And it is a big deal.

Alan, I want the best of both worlds, I want the Kop to be THE KOP, not some little bit of a home end, I want the community regeneration to make Anfield something credible for the 330 days per year when we don't host a match.  Loads of scope to make The Kop something more than it is with the emphasis on the other 330 days.   I want WBR to be a thoroughfare that meets the needs of an A road and also a local boulevard.  Not at all sure that the current plans hit the mark, we need a rethink.
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Offline whiteboots

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #89 on: June 7, 2016, 11:36:55 AM »
I first stood on the Kop in the 70ís. I think it means different things to different generations. For me, once the Kop defectors relocated as the Annie Road Boys in the late 70ís, the atmosphere as was, changed forever. Of course it reappeared for the big games, but that single entity, and power, was lost. Then seating it consigned the glory days to history.

I donít think that redeveloping the Kop now to increase capacity is financially viable. I favour architectural statements and paying more in the short term for a better long term answer, but here, I believe the geography of the site and economics just donít stack. The opportunity was post Taylor when it was seated. But as has been our way, it was a rushed, make- do -and- mend  job ( see the retention of the original profiling on the ARE for the upper tier and the Kemlyn lower for the Centenary).

We have decided to stay at Anfield, and keeping the Kop as is, is  a consequence ( same for the Centenary).

The opportunity now is not the restricted Kop, it is the open space of the ARE where new traditions might be created.

Offline The Lord Admiral

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #90 on: June 7, 2016, 12:47:48 PM »
This looks like it kills the idea of a Kop expansion any time soon. Personally I find that very underwhelming, but not surprising.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-fc-submit-detailed-plans-11434855

Offline andy07

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #91 on: June 7, 2016, 09:58:26 PM »
This looks like it kills the idea of a Kop expansion any time soon. Personally I find that very underwhelming, but not surprising.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-fc-submit-detailed-plans-11434855

The cost of this will be small fry in the context of a Kop extension so if / when that ever happens it will be incorporated ino an extension or demolished.
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Offline Lolo

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #92 on: June 8, 2016, 08:08:39 AM »
Li
I first stood on the Kop in the 70ís. I think it means different things to different generations. For me, once the Kop defectors relocated as the Annie Road Boys in the late 70ís, the atmosphere as was, changed forever. Of course it reappeared for the big games, but that single entity, and power, was lost. Then seating it consigned the glory days to history.

I donít think that redeveloping the Kop now to increase capacity is financially viable. I favour architectural statements and paying more in the short term for a better long term answer, but here, I believe the geography of the site and economics just donít stack. The opportunity was post Taylor when it was seated. But as has been our way, it was a rushed, make- do -and- mend  job ( see the retention of the original profiling on the ARE for the upper tier and the Kemlyn lower for the Centenary).

We have decided to stay at Anfield, and keeping the Kop as is, is  a consequence ( same for the Centenary).

The opportunity now is not the restricted Kop, it is the open space of the ARE where new traditions might be created.


Likewise, I grew up standing on the Kop in the 70s & 80s, and I firmly believe the ONLY way to ever create the atmosphere from those days is with Safe Standing (and YES I know there's a separate thread for this already, and YES I know there is a restriction on capacity due to local infrastructure etc...).
Only then will we provide the mass of people who can afford to watch at a somewhat reduced cost and get back what we've lost!

Offline The Lord Admiral

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #93 on: June 8, 2016, 01:09:55 PM »
The cost of this will be small fry in the context of a Kop extension so if / when that ever happens it will be incorporated ino an extension or demolished.

I hope you are right. Doesn't look like it's happening any time soon though.

Offline laddo

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #94 on: June 8, 2016, 01:45:10 PM »
This looks like it kills the idea of a Kop expansion any time soon. Personally I find that very underwhelming, but not surprising.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-fc-submit-detailed-plans-11434855

The fact Liverpool have said they have absolutely no plans to expand the Kop, killed the idea.

Offline whiteboots

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #95 on: June 8, 2016, 02:10:47 PM »
Li
Likewise, I grew up standing on the Kop in the 70s & 80s, and I firmly believe the ONLY way to ever create the atmosphere from those days is with Safe Standing (and YES I know there's a separate thread for this already, and YES I know there is a restriction on capacity due to local infrastructure etc...).
Only then will we provide the mass of people who can afford to watch at a somewhat reduced cost and get back what we've lost!
I agree.

Another option is to create a section in the Kop, or new ARE, that is £25, pay on the day turnstiles ( to ensure no selling on), ensuring that keen fans get there early, buy their refreshments in the ground, and make some noise- combined with safe standing?

Offline Rosti

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #96 on: June 10, 2016, 12:58:16 AM »
Looking at the photos of the sudtribune does it increase in rake slightly roughly half way up?  Would this work with our Kop for future expansion and a cantilevered design over the WBR?  Hate the thought of our Kop left out with the likes of Spurs set to have a 17,000 single tier stand. Surely the club will find a way to address this.
Would note that increasing the rake with the same width and depth doesn't actually increase the capacity of a stand, which is what I feel you're implying can happen (along with a few other posts on here).

It's a bit counter-intuitive, because a steeper rake does give more surface area to the stand, but fundamentally all you end up doing is increasing the difference in height between each row, which doesn't actually add more seats. Building a steeper Kop on the same footprint and with the same row spacing (which is limited by how much space people need when sat down, for the most part not anything to do with the gradient) gives you the exact same capacity we have now - the only difference is that the people on the back rows are sat higher up and probably have a better view for it. The only way a taller stand gives you more rows is if you start stacking them on top of each other - i.e. stick another tier on it.

The Westfalenstadion end has more capacity seated because it's got more footprint (or tighter spacing between seats). Gradient has nothing to do with it.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 01:05:17 AM by Rosti »

Offline banjo

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #97 on: June 21, 2016, 10:02:14 PM »
Would note that increasing the rake with the same width and depth doesn't actually increase the capacity of a stand, which is what I feel you're implying can happen (along with a few other posts on here).

It's a bit counter-intuitive, because a steeper rake does give more surface area to the stand, but fundamentally all you end up doing is increasing the difference in height between each row, which doesn't actually add more seats. Building a steeper Kop on the same footprint and with the same row spacing (which is limited by how much space people need when sat down, for the most part not anything to do with the gradient) gives you the exact same capacity we have now - the only difference is that the people on the back rows are sat higher up and probably have a better view for it. The only way a taller stand gives you more rows is if you start stacking them on top of each other - i.e. stick another tier on it.

The Westfalenstadion end has more capacity seated because it's got more footprint (or tighter spacing between seats). Gradient has nothing to do with it.

By increasing the rake you also reduce the horizontal distances for the people sat at the back from the pitch. The old North Stand at Highbury is a good example of maximising the limited space behind the goal, with the upper tier completely overhanging the lower tier. You could argue the ARE is a very poor example of the same principle.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #98 on: June 21, 2016, 10:17:22 PM »
By increasing the rake you also reduce the horizontal distances for the people sat at the back from the pitch. The old North Stand at Highbury is a good example of maximising the limited space behind the goal, with the upper tier completely overhanging the lower tier. You could argue the ARE is a very poor example of the same principle.

That's nothing to do with the rake. It's the fact that stand has two tiers. The distance from the pitch is set by the row spacing not the rake. 

Are you suggesting that the Kop should be two-tier?
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Offline banjo

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #99 on: June 21, 2016, 11:41:26 PM »
That's nothing to do with the rake. It's the fact that stand has two tiers. The distance from the pitch is set by the row spacing not the rake. 

Are you suggesting that the Kop should be two-tier?

Sorry, I've used 'rake' when that's not what meant (one eye on the football). The point I was badly making was that you can squueze as many seats into a two tier design and keep the fans closer to the pitch than a large single tier. I don't think the KOP should be a double decker, but didn't LFC explore that idea in the 90's, but had very limited options with planning restrictions at the time with the height of the KOP?

Offline Rosti

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #100 on: June 22, 2016, 12:48:50 AM »
Are you suggesting that the Kop should be two-tier?
Maybe a bit radical, but could be an option to increase the capacity on the existing footprint without disrupting the local road layout.

If the new potential expansion to the ARE made the stand one huge single tier (which it almost is looking to be anyway, considering the disproportionate size between the current first tier and the proposed new upper tier), then that could potentially become the new "Kop" and could leave the existing Kop open for remodelling and adding a second tier to increase capacity without it needing to push further back.

Don't personally see it happening for cost and logistical reasons (and I'm not sure our existing plans are thinking that far ahead), but at the same time I don't think it's totally crazy given the constraints of the current ground. If you want a stand with a huge footprint, would make more sense to put it at the end with the most space behind.

Offline banjo

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #101 on: June 22, 2016, 03:21:00 PM »
Maybe a bit radical, but could be an option to increase the capacity on the existing footprint without disrupting the local road layout.

If the new potential expansion to the ARE made the stand one huge single tier (which it almost is looking to be anyway, considering the disproportionate size between the current first tier and the proposed new upper tier), then that could potentially become the new "Kop" and could leave the existing Kop open for remodelling and adding a second tier to increase capacity without it needing to push further back.

Don't personally see it happening for cost and logistical reasons (and I'm not sure our existing plans are thinking that far ahead), but at the same time I don't think it's totally crazy given the constraints of the current ground. If you want a stand with a huge footprint, would make more sense to put it at the end with the most space behind.

I think from the clubs current position its a none starter, as the stand would most likely be out of use whilst the work took place and would cost a fortune.

Southampton came up with a novel idea as they were in a similar situation with a road cutting diagonally across the back of their stand. The best of both worlds or the worst of the two?

http://www.stadiumguide.com/wp-content/gallery/dell/dell1.jpg


Offline Billy Elliot

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #102 on: June 22, 2016, 04:00:12 PM »
Maybe a bit radical, but could be an option to increase the capacity on the existing footprint without disrupting the local road layout.

If the new potential expansion to the ARE made the stand one huge single tier (which it almost is looking to be anyway, considering the disproportionate size between the current first tier and the proposed new upper tier), then that could potentially become the new "Kop" and could leave the existing Kop open for remodelling and adding a second tier to increase capacity without it needing to push further back.

Don't personally see it happening for cost and logistical reasons (and I'm not sure our existing plans are thinking that far ahead), but at the same time I don't think it's totally crazy given the constraints of the current ground. If you want a stand with a huge footprint, would make more sense to put it at the end with the most space behind.

Sweet spot is 60,000. 

ďIf you spend £40million on a stand and you get 5,000 general admission seats, that takes a long time to get that back, so you have to find a solution and other ways to make that return quicker."

ďThe 60,000 capacity as a construction cost feels like the right solution to be able to be sustainable and build the business from, so in that regard that is why we feel that is the right number."

(Ian Ayre)

Can't see it ever being bigger than 60,000.  They'll only build it bigger if they can profit from it quickly (hence no increase at all in general admission). 

They'll never rebuild the Kop, it'd take too long to profit from it.
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Offline Rosti

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #103 on: June 22, 2016, 10:39:53 PM »
Sweet spot is 60,000. 

ďIf you spend £40million on a stand and you get 5,000 general admission seats, that takes a long time to get that back, so you have to find a solution and other ways to make that return quicker."

ďThe 60,000 capacity as a construction cost feels like the right solution to be able to be sustainable and build the business from, so in that regard that is why we feel that is the right number."

(Ian Ayre)

Can't see it ever being bigger than 60,000.  They'll only build it bigger if they can profit from it quickly (hence no increase at all in general admission). 

They'll never rebuild the Kop, it'd take too long to profit from it.


Like I said, for cost and logistical reasons I don't see the whole thing happening right now.

That said, I think with the planned Anfield Road expansion, the difference between making it single seater and the current plans is probably fairly minimal, and given such a small overlap between the two tiers compared to the size of the final stand, I don't think it would be a ridiculous proposal to change the plans so that the Anfield Road end is one huge single tier and could effectively become a new, bigger, Kop. As I understand it the planned Anfield Road expansion would build behind the existing stand in a way that lines up with the current upper tier so it can be knocked through (EDIT: Actually, closer inspection of the current stand and the proposed one suggests the existing upper tier would be removed completely). Presumably just building the whole thing slightly lower, so it meets up with the lower tier instead (with a change in rake angle where they join), isn't that drastic a change of plans?

I also think that such a plan would leave us with more options open if we want further expansion to the existing site sometime in the next 10-20 years. Given that the history of the club is always going to want one of the stands behind the goals to be a big single-tier monolith, and given the issues over enlarging the Kop, if we have an opportunity to make a big single-tier stand now I don't think it would be daft to take it. 60,000 capacity might be the right number for us now in terms of fast ROI, but I don't see it staying that way forever. If we're investing such a large amount of money into the stadium then it makes sense to at least keep some eye on future possibilities and not close off avenues in advance.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 10:54:34 PM by Rosti »

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #104 on: June 22, 2016, 11:29:41 PM »
Like I said, for cost and logistical reasons I don't see the whole thing happening right now.

That said, I think with the planned Anfield Road expansion, the difference between making it single seater and the current plans is probably fairly minimal, and given such a small overlap between the two tiers compared to the size of the final stand, I don't think it would be a ridiculous proposal to change the plans so that the Anfield Road end is one huge single tier and could effectively become a new, bigger, Kop. As I understand it the planned Anfield Road expansion would build behind the existing stand in a way that lines up with the current upper tier so it can be knocked through (EDIT: Actually, closer inspection of the current stand and the proposed one suggests the existing upper tier would be removed completely). Presumably just building the whole thing slightly lower, so it meets up with the lower tier instead (with a change in rake angle where they join), isn't that drastic a change of plans?

I also think that such a plan would leave us with more options open if we want further expansion to the existing site sometime in the next 10-20 years. Given that the history of the club is always going to want one of the stands behind the goals to be a big single-tier monolith, and given the issues over enlarging the Kop, if we have an opportunity to make a big single-tier stand now I don't think it would be daft to take it. 60,000 capacity might be the right number for us now in terms of fast ROI, but I don't see it staying that way forever. If we're investing such a large amount of money into the stadium then it makes sense to at least keep some eye on future possibilities and not close off avenues in advance.

The club has 'taken the high line' in terms of capacity in the Main Stand i.e., it's already pushing the footprint envelope and is extremely unlikely to get any bigger.

The proposals for the ARE are not far behind. It doesn't have a curved back or the chamfer corners pushing it to the max but that would be because that little bit extra pushes it over what would be a financially viable cost.

The step in tiers is important a. to give access to internal bars and potential hospitality suites and b. because if it were a single tier, it could be seen as an adaption of an existing stand rather than a separate tier, in which case the whole stand of the existing stand may well have to be demolished to meet new guidelines on seat spacings and the exit provision would have to be reconsidered as a whole. Shooting the club in the foot both in terms of cost and reduced revenue. Not good.

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #105 on: August 31, 2016, 09:33:50 AM »

Revealed - Radical plans for a 'completely transformed' Walton Breck Road:-

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/revealed-radical-plans-completely-transformed-11817902
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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #106 on: August 31, 2016, 11:37:30 AM »
The road looks very pedestrianised for a major A road.

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #107 on: August 31, 2016, 01:26:40 PM »
The road looks very pedestrianised for a major A road.
Agreed, so is the traffic going to be routed to the west of the WBR around this area?  Have any detailed plans been released by the Council that would show this?

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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #108 on: August 31, 2016, 01:33:05 PM »
The road looks very pedestrianised for a major A road.

It's quite localised and would act as traffic calming around the stadium and High Street area.

Agreed, so is the traffic going to be routed to the west of the WBR around this area?  Have any detailed plans been released by the Council that would show this?

No need for it to be re-routed.
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Re: Straightening the Kop
« Reply #109 on: August 31, 2016, 03:43:45 PM »
Looks like a few WBR residents may be losing the parking spaces outside their property? (going on the pictures in the article linked above with planted trees) - and may want some assurances that the benches and seating areas won't become a meeting places for gangs of kids/vandals etc

Be great to see the surrounding roads and pavements improved/relaid - and that there's a mini bus station and taxi rank somewhere in there.

Some assurances on who is going be responsible for maintaining the improvements too.


Hope the remaining residents like the improvements and are listened to for their input on them - in a genuine and meaningful manner (and not just PR spin from Ayre, the Council and the housing association).
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 03:52:59 PM by oojason »
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