Author Topic: Joe Cole  (Read 61286 times)

Offline slotmachine

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #720 on: November 14, 2018, 11:07:05 PM »
25m he robbed off us on a 4 year deal. Thanks Cecil with supporting roles from Gerrard and Carra( keep kissing Cecil's ass and i will get a nice new 3 year deal just before the change of ownership). The club was going under and we were making deals like this at the same time getting knocked back for Luke fucking Young and Carlton Cole with the owl as manager. This period still haunts me and how the fuck we never went under with this level of incompetence from the top with the cowboys and Cecil and Hodgson underneath and Gerrard and Carra saying fuck all and just letting it play out i dont know. Its amazing we survived.

Offline Bakez0151

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #721 on: November 14, 2018, 11:24:08 PM »
25m he robbed off us on a 4 year deal. Thanks Cecil with supporting roles from Gerrard and Carra( keep kissing Cecil's ass and i will get a nice new 3 year deal just before the change of ownership). The club was going under and we were making deals like this at the same time getting knocked back for Luke fucking Young and Carlton Cole with the owl as manager. This period still haunts me and how the fuck we never went under with this level of incompetence from the top with the cowboys and Cecil and Hodgson underneath and Gerrard and Carra saying fuck all and just letting it play out i dont know. Its amazing we survived.

He didn't rob us of anything. He was just shit. If we wasted money we wasted money. No reason to hold any grudge against him. The people that made those decisions for sure.

Offline slotmachine

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #722 on: November 14, 2018, 11:51:05 PM »
He didn't rob us of anything. He was just shit. If we wasted money we wasted money. No reason to hold any grudge against him. The people that made those decisions for sure.

Its the fact as a high performance professional athlete he could hardly run and was a known smoker was the reason i used robbed in that way. He didnt rob us but he certainly never earned that kind of money. Him and his agent took us an imploding vulnerable club to the cleaners courtesy of Cecil and Co.

Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #723 on: November 19, 2018, 10:42:08 AM »
Its the fact as a high performance professional athlete he could hardly run and was a known smoker was the reason i used robbed in that way. He didnt rob us but he certainly never earned that kind of money. Him and his agent took us an imploding vulnerable club to the cleaners courtesy of Cecil and Co.

He took a contract (and the subsequent pay cheques) home that we offered him. We offered him the 100 grand a week and a signing bonus of 5m pounds.
If anything, it is Purslow, Hodgson and Co. that should be dry cleaned.
He might have been a smoker and a footballer that could hardly run. But he didnt do anything against the club or its fans. I think that in itself deserves some respect than your Rieras, Poulsens, Koncheskys and Co.

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #724 on: November 19, 2018, 10:45:56 AM »
He might have been a smoker and a footballer that could hardly run. But he didnt do anything against the club or its fans.

I'd argue that as a minimum for a pro-footballer, regardless of what you're getting paid (but maybe more so if you're on a particularly huge wage) is you do all you can to be as fit as you can so you can put in a performance on the pitch for the wage you're earning. The fact he was smoking pretty much goes totally against that.

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #725 on: November 19, 2018, 10:53:43 AM »
I'd argue that as a minimum for a pro-footballer, regardless of what you're getting paid (but maybe more so if you're on a particularly huge wage) is you do all you can to be as fit as you can so you can put in a performance on the pitch for the wage you're earning. The fact he was smoking pretty much goes totally against that.
i take it you where against jan molby then as he certainly wasnt fit for a professional athlete!

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #726 on: November 19, 2018, 10:56:51 AM »
i take it you where against jan molby then as he certainly wasnt fit for a professional athlete!

Slightly different era fitness wise, but yeah any pro-footballer has a responsibility to maintain the fittest body they can.

Offline RedSince86

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #727 on: November 19, 2018, 10:59:00 AM »
He took a contract (and the subsequent pay cheques) home that we offered him. We offered him the 100 grand a week and a signing bonus of 5m pounds.
If anything, it is Purslow, Hodgson and Co. that should be dry cleaned.
He might have been a smoker and a footballer that could hardly run. But he didnt do anything against the club or its fans. I think that in itself deserves some respect than your Rieras, Poulsens, Koncheskys and Co.
To be fair to the Owl his comments on Cole seemed like  he didn't have any hand in that signing and that it was done before he'd gone to the club.

Wasn't that one of the reasons that cemented Rafa's leaving that Purslow did this signing over Rafa's head in 2010.

I feel weird defending Hodgson now.  :D
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Offline kloppismydad

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #728 on: November 19, 2018, 11:24:35 AM »
I think that in itself deserves some respect than your Rieras, Poulsens, Koncheskys and Co.

What did he do?  ???

Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #729 on: November 19, 2018, 11:41:41 AM »
I'd argue that as a minimum for a pro-footballer, regardless of what you're getting paid (but maybe more so if you're on a particularly huge wage) is you do all you can to be as fit as you can so you can put in a performance on the pitch for the wage you're earning. The fact he was smoking pretty much goes totally against that.

I agree. That is the least you would expect of a footballer. But modern football has made it mandatory to specify it. I mean, we wouldnt support Itandje after "that" Hillsborough memorial, would we? Or Souness with his interview? Or maybe even Konchesky after his mom's comments about the club, which he didnt defend or deflect. Dont even want to mention the spitting twat by name here.

The point is, there have been so many bad apples of varying degrees in the history of this club and considering some of the wankers that have played, Joseph has been nothing short of a professional and for this reason, it would be unfair to suggest that he robbed us of 25m pounds.

Plus he played in the season when I was finally able to save by the cents and pounds and afford my first and my very own LFC jersey. :)

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #730 on: November 19, 2018, 11:45:20 AM »
I agree. That is the least you would expect of a footballer. But modern football has made it mandatory to specify it. I mean, we wouldnt support Itandje after "that" Hillsborough memorial, would we? Or Souness with his interview? Or maybe even Konchesky after his mom's comments about the club, which he didnt defend or deflect. Dont even want to mention the spitting twat by name here.

The point is, there have been so many bad apples of varying degrees in the history of this club and considering some of the wankers that have played, Joseph has been nothing short of a professional and for this reason, it would be unfair to suggest that he robbed us of 25m pounds.

Why are you comparing him to those though? I mean why not compare him to the best who have played for this club? Or even if not the best, how about just those who put in 100% effort and at least tried their best?

For me he may well not be as bad as some you mention, no where near in fact, but he also comes up wayyyy short from where I expect any professional player who comes and plays for this (any) club to be.

Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #731 on: November 19, 2018, 11:46:02 AM »
What did he do?  ???

Had some huge altercation with an unnamed reserve team player and then criticized the club and Benitez for punishing him for it.

Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #732 on: November 19, 2018, 11:50:06 AM »
Why are you comparing him to those though? I mean why not compare him to the best who have played for this club? Or even if not the best, how about just those who put in 100% effort and at least tried their best?

Exactly. He came and he tried his best.
My point was, he came because we offered him that pay cheque. He didnt rob us of anything.
He did his job to the best of his ability, however short it fell from the standards of any footballer at this club. (which I concurred from your second para)
Thank you for that. And good luck on your retirement.

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #733 on: November 19, 2018, 11:51:10 AM »
To be fair to the Owl his comments on Cole seemed like  he didn't have any hand in that signing and that it was done before he'd gone to the club.

Wasn't that one of the reasons that cemented Rafa's leaving that Purslow did this signing over Rafa's head in 2010.

I feel weird defending Hodgson now.  :D
I dont think that happened at all mate

Rafa was going anyway. the whole board i think voted to get rid

sad day that. i wear this phrase out but changing him for hodgson is like trading in a ferrari for a wheelbarrow
yer ma should have called you Paolo Zico Gerry Socrates HELLRAZOR

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #734 on: November 19, 2018, 11:51:45 AM »
Exactly. He came and he tried his best.
My point was, he came because we offered him that pay cheque. He didnt rob us of anything.
He did his job to the best of his ability, however short it fell from the standards of any footballer at this club. (which I concurred from your second para)
Thank you for that. And good luck on your retirement.

He didn't try his best though, that's my point. The fact, as a pro footballer, he smoked is not doing all you can to give your best.

Offline Hellrazor

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #735 on: November 19, 2018, 11:52:36 AM »
Had some huge altercation with an unnamed reserve team player and then criticized the club and Benitez for punishing him for it.
Dani Pacheco! think riera punched him.

Exactly. He came and he tried his best.
My point was, he came because we offered him that pay cheque. He didnt rob us of anything.
He did his job to the best of his ability, however short it fell from the standards of any footballer at this club. (which I concurred from your second para)
Thank you for that. And good luck on your retirement.
yep we were ripped off in some ways as we got little or no return for the money invested but you cant blame the guy for taking a contract we offered him
yer ma should have called you Paolo Zico Gerry Socrates HELLRAZOR

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #736 on: November 19, 2018, 12:03:46 PM »
He took a contract (and the subsequent pay cheques) home that we offered him. We offered him the 100 grand a week and a signing bonus of 5m pounds.
If anything, it is Purslow, Hodgson and Co. that should be dry cleaned.
He might have been a smoker and a footballer that could hardly run. But he didnt do anything against the club or its fans. I think that in itself deserves some respect than your Rieras, Poulsens, Koncheskys and Co.

What did Riera do?

Offline Hellrazor

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #737 on: November 19, 2018, 12:06:20 PM »
What did Riera do?
was said to have punched Dani Pacheco in training

did inteview when still our player saying we were "a sinking ship"
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Offline Mark Walters

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #738 on: November 19, 2018, 02:14:56 PM »
did inteview when still our player saying we were "a sinking ship"

He wasn't wrong about that bit
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Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #739 on: November 19, 2018, 03:33:42 PM »
I don't mind Joe Cole. He fucked up big time going to Chelsea at that age, he should have gone somewhere where he'd be guaranteed first team football in a role that suited his skillset. Can't blame him I suppose, going to the club he supported as a boy for massive money. Ended up wasting the peak years of his career though in my opinion, even if he does have a few nice medals to show for it.

I don't really get this argument. It's always trotted out about Joe Cole, but those peak years of his career were spent as a regular at probably the best club in the country between 2004 and 2008. He started 19, 26 and 28 league games in the three seasons he wasn't injured during that period. Not a nailed-on starter, but a regular for sure. He was also named in the PFA Team of the Year in 05/06 and as Chelsea's best player in 07/08. His goal tally in those three seasons were never matched prior or subsequently. His England career was also essentially dead after that period.

We have to acknowledge the era we're discussing here too. Probably the only club at that point where he'd have been more 'fun' to watch was Arsenal. With us he'd have had even more defensive responsibility playing wide in Rafa's 4-2-3-1 as opposed to Mourinho's 4-3-3, and United were hardly the swash-buckling side they're now made out to be. I certainly don't think he'd have been a nailed-on starter there either given their plethora of attacking options.

Maybe a different manager to Mourinho could have got more from Cole offensively, but maybe his laziness from West Ham would have endured and he'd have stagnated as a footballer. We'll never know. What we do know is Shaun Wright-Phillips he was not. He was a genuine success at Chelsea, individually and collectively. I'm sure there's plenty in his career he regrets but joining Chelsea surely isn't one of them.
Better than the Invincibles.
Better than Mourinho's Chelsea.
Better than the fables Man Utd Treble team.

I'm alright with that.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #740 on: November 19, 2018, 05:09:29 PM »
I don't really get this argument. It's always trotted out about Joe Cole, but those peak years of his career were spent as a regular at probably the best club in the country between 2004 and 2008. He started 19, 26 and 28 league games in the three seasons he wasn't injured during that period. Not a nailed-on starter, but a regular for sure. He was also named in the PFA Team of the Year in 05/06 and as Chelsea's best player in 07/08. His goal tally in those three seasons were never matched prior or subsequently. His England career was also essentially dead after that period.

We have to acknowledge the era we're discussing here too. Probably the only club at that point where he'd have been more 'fun' to watch was Arsenal. With us he'd have had even more defensive responsibility playing wide in Rafa's 4-2-3-1 as opposed to Mourinho's 4-3-3, and United were hardly the swash-buckling side they're now made out to be. I certainly don't think he'd have been a nailed-on starter there either given their plethora of attacking options.

Maybe a different manager to Mourinho could have got more from Cole offensively, but maybe his laziness from West Ham would have endured and he'd have stagnated as a footballer. We'll never know. What we do know is Shaun Wright-Phillips he was not. He was a genuine success at Chelsea, individually and collectively. I'm sure there's plenty in his career he regrets but joining Chelsea surely isn't one of them.

I don't think he regrets it - he played a part in the club he supports winning a shed loads of trophies. I don't think he fulfilled his potential as an individual player though and by the time he'd left Chelsea it was too late. He was phenomenally gifted and it would have been nice to see how good he could have become. There are other clubs than Liverpool, Man Utd and Arsenal btw. Other countries too.

But like I say, I doubt he regrets it. We're not exactly talking Ravel Morrison levels of wasting your talent. And if I was that good and had the choice of playing a bit part in Liverpool winning loads of trophies or maximizing my talent at another club, I'd probably take the Joe Cole route too and go to the club I support.

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #741 on: November 20, 2018, 12:16:01 PM »
I don't think he regrets it - he played a part in the club he supports winning a shed loads of trophies. I don't think he fulfilled his potential as an individual player though and by the time he'd left Chelsea it was too late. He was phenomenally gifted and it would have been nice to see how good he could have become. There are other clubs than Liverpool, Man Utd and Arsenal btw. Other countries too.

But like I say, I doubt he regrets it. We're not exactly talking Ravel Morrison levels of wasting your talent. And if I was that good and had the choice of playing a bit part in Liverpool winning loads of trophies or maximizing my talent at another club, I'd probably take the Joe Cole route too and go to the club I support.

I just don't see how you can describe his role at Chelsea as a "bit part". He was starting around two-thirds of their league games. I'd say once he ousted Duff in the second half of 04/05, he was in their strongest XI under Mourinho and Grant. He started both legs against us in the semi-finals in 2005 and 2007 for example.

As for the bold, in this era we're discussing, there really wasn't as far as England goes. It was the Big Four and a gigantic chasm below them. If he'd have moved to Everton, Spurs or Villa, we'd be discussing wasting talent on an enormous scale.
Better than the Invincibles.
Better than Mourinho's Chelsea.
Better than the fables Man Utd Treble team.

I'm alright with that.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #742 on: November 20, 2018, 04:10:55 PM »
I just don't see how you can describe his role at Chelsea as a "bit part".

The key players, in terms of influence and contribution, for Chelsea in that period were Drogba, Fat Frank, Makelele, Robben (when fit), Terry, Carvalho, Cech and probably Essien.

It's then quite a big gap between them and the next set of players - Cole, Duff, Gudjohnsen, Malouda, Gallas etc.

Call it what you want - bit part/2nd tier/less influential. My point is about how it would have been nice to see what he could have become as a player had he been playing in a role and team more suited to bringing out the best in his skillset, rather than him not playing to his potential to fit around others. 

As for the bold, in this era we're discussing, there really wasn't as far as England goes. It was the Big Four and a gigantic chasm below them. If he'd have moved to Everton, Spurs or Villa, we'd be discussing wasting talent on an enormous scale.

If, for some reason in this hypothetical scenario, he wasn't allowed to play outside of England, Newcastle could have been a good fit - Shearer, Bellamy, Speed, Milner, Robert, Woodgate, etc in the mid 00s - quite a decent team to build around someone like Cole to see if he really was the outrageous talent that he looked as a kid.

I look at another phenomenal talent - Riquelme - and see what he did at Villareal. Now that's an example of someone who wasn't good enough to build a huge team around, but build a small/mid size team around him and the world got to enjoy a few years of an absolutely wonderful player on top of his game and playing the football he was meant to play. In terms of natural talent I think Cole is up there with him. Neutrals around the world and hipsters still talk about Riquelme in hushed tones though - I don't think the same can be said for Cole.

to be honest I don't know what is better - to be the 8th best player in a side that wins a few trophies or being Riquelme at Villareal. I can see the appeal in both. As he was a Chelsea fan, and as Chelsea paid probably 4 times more than any other team would have, that probably swings it to the former. But in terms of legacy left on the game, it's probably the latter.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 04:37:25 PM by Xabi Gerrard »

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #743 on: November 20, 2018, 04:40:06 PM »
The key players, in terms of influence and contribution, for Chelsea in that period were Drogba, Fat Frank, Makelele, Robben (when fit), Terry, Carvalho, Cech and probably Essien.

It's then quite a big gap between them and the next set of players - Cole, Duff, Gudjohnsen, Malouda, Gallas etc.

Call it what you want - bit part/2nd tier/less influential. My point is about how it would have been nice to see what he could have become as a player had he been playing in a role and team more suited to bringing out the best in his skillset.

If, for some reason in this hypothetical scenario, he wasn't allowed to play outside of England, Newcastle could have been a good fit - Shearer, Bellamy, Speed, Milner, Robert, Woodgate, etc in the mid 00s - quite a decent team to build around someone like Cole to see if he really was the outrageous talent that he looked as a kid.

I look at another phenomenal talent - Riquelme - and see what he did at Villareal. Now that's an example of someone who wasn't good enough to build a huge team around, but build a small/mid size team around him and the world got to enjoy a few years of an absolutely wonderful player on top of his game and playing the football he was meant to play. In terms of natural talent I think Cole is up there with him. Neutrals around the world and hipsters still talk about Riquelme in hushed tones though - I don't think the same can be said for Cole.

to be honest I don't know what is the better - to be the 8th best player in a side that wins a few trophies or having Riquelme's career. I can see the appeal in both. As he was a Chelsea fan, and as Chelsea paid probably 4 times more than any other team would have, that probably swings it to the former. But in terms of legacy left on the game, it's probably the latter.

I understand more where you're coming from now.

I just think sometimes fans have a tendency to look at these things revisionally with rose-tinted glasses, and think, "Ahhh, what a player he'd have been if only he'd been let off the leash." But actually the evidence in front of us suggests the opposite: that discipline and a structured role gets the best out of a lot of players. Cole's best period of his career was under Mourinho. Gerrard under Rafa. Barkley has interestingly spoken at some length about this at Chelsea under Sarri presently.

Perhaps I underestimate Cole's natural talent levels to a degree, but did he really have the vision, the spatial awareness, the passing range, the sublime first touch to play the game as Riquelme did? I always thought Cole's greatest assets were his flair and his dribbling, which ultimately did seem best suited to coming off one of the flanks in an era of physicality being chosen over technicality in central midfield areas. In this current age of number ten type players regularly being used in deeper areas, he may well have flourished to the levels you talk about, especially given his two-footedness.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 04:42:33 PM by LallanaInPyjamas »
Better than the Invincibles.
Better than Mourinho's Chelsea.
Better than the fables Man Utd Treble team.

I'm alright with that.

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #744 on: November 20, 2018, 04:40:08 PM »
The key players, in terms of influence and contribution, for Chelsea in that period were Drogba, Fat Frank, Makelele, Robben (when fit), Terry, Carvalho, Cech and probably Essien.

It's then quite a big gap between them and the next set of players - Cole, Duff, Gudjohnsen, Malouda, Gallas etc.

Really?

Duff and Robben scored the same number of goals from a similar number of appearances. Duff had more assists.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Joe Cole
« Reply #745 on: November 20, 2018, 04:49:07 PM »
I understand more where you're coming from now.

I just think sometimes fans have a tendency to look at these things revisionally with rose-tinted glasses, and think, "Ahhh, what a player he'd have been if only he'd been let off the leash." But actually the evidence in front of us suggests the opposite: that discipline and a structured role gets the best out of a lot of players. Cole's best period of his career was under Mourinho. Gerrard under Rafa. Barkley has interestingly spoken at some length about this at Chelsea under Sarri presently.

Perhaps I underestimate Cole's natural talent levels to a degree, but did he really have the vision, the spatial awareness, the passing range, the sublime first touch to play the game as Riquelme did? I always thought Cole's greatest assets were his flair and his dribbling, which ultimately did seem best suited to coming off one of the flanks in an era of physicality being chosen over technicality in central midfield areas. In this current age of number ten type players regularly being used in deeper areas, he may well have flourished to the levels you talk about, especially given his two-footedness.

All fair points!

Really?

Duff and Robben scored the same number of goals from a similar number of appearances. Duff had more assists.

Haha, I should have known an Irishman would take issue with my Duff comment! Duff was bloody good at Chelsea to be fair. I still think Robben was that level above him though (not a slight on Duff - when fit Robben was a level above every wide attacking player in the league (before Ronaldo exploded in 2006 of course)). I guess sometimes a very good player can have the same/better number of goals + assists as a very very good player.