Author Topic: Fernando Torres  (Read 452188 times)

Offline Hellrazor

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7320 on: November 13, 2018, 11:56:01 AM »
Not having that. Was one of our very best squads ever, you can talk about new signings for any team and they would have finished higher. I still look at that team and shake my head it didnít win the league. Cruel. It was Rafaís masterpiece on a budget  - it hits the points tally it should have and it goes down as one of the best teams in the Premier League history, and one of ours. Iím almost welling up typing this!

Fact is, Nando stays fit and we hit 90 points that season and weíre still drunk now. Selling Keane was a mistake, he was on 1 in 4 and was a better option than NíGog by a million miles.
my point in needing one or two signings though was there wasnt really much cover  (if any) for torres, especially with Keane being sold. another striker there to take the load would have helped.

but that summer we had a hell of a team in place and them two fuckers wrecked it. it didnt much investment, but they asset stripped it

in other seasons that team would have walked the league im sure
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Offline JamesG L4

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7321 on: November 13, 2018, 12:01:23 PM »
my point in needing one or two signings though was there wasnt really much cover  (if any) for torres, especially with Keane being sold. another striker there to take the load would have helped.

but that summer we had a hell of a team in place and them two fuckers wrecked it. it didnt much investment, but they asset stripped it

in other seasons that team would have walked the league im sure

Yes. Selling Keane was a mistake but not replacing him criminal. Nígog got 2 league goals in 14 games, was young and raw and ultimately nowhere near good enough.
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Offline Hellrazor

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7322 on: November 13, 2018, 12:04:38 PM »
Yes. Selling Keane was a mistake but not replacing him criminal. Nígog got 2 league goals in 14 games, was young and raw and ultimately nowhere near good enough.
Ngog wasnt the worst but far from the best, i would rather him than Voronin

even with Keane there we only had him, torres and ngog. Thats about the bare minimum and as you say to sell one and not replace them was criminal

Say what you want about Keanes time here but if its down to him or Ngog to come in i know who i would rather have
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Offline JamesG L4

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7323 on: November 13, 2018, 12:10:04 PM »
Ngog wasnt the worst but far from the best, i would rather him than Voronin

even with Keane there we only had him, torres and ngog. Thats about the bare minimum and as you say to sell one and not replace them was criminal

Say what you want about Keanes time here but if its down to him or Ngog to come in i know who i would rather have

Itís times like this I see why people try meth. 08/09, if analysed too much itís a dark road. The forward options weíve had since then, any of those and we bestride the league like a bronzed Adonis with Rafa on top like a God.
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Offline Hellrazor

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7324 on: November 13, 2018, 12:17:06 PM »
Itís times like this I see why people try meth. 08/09, if analysed too much itís a dark road. The forward options weíve had since then, any of those and we bestride the league like a bronzed Adonis with Rafa on top like a God.
There were some good times

annoys when people say we played poor football under Rafa, we didnt. i always got the impression that whoever we beat and whenever we won it was always because "real madrid were shit, united were shit" was never because we made them shit or because maybe JUST MAYBE we were better

lazy too when people blame the rafa rant for costing us, within weeks united whittled down a decent lead we had over them, granted but a lot of that was because they had games in hand

remarkable to lose only two games and not win the league
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Offline GucciMane

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7325 on: November 14, 2018, 02:00:44 AM »
Itís times like this I see why people try meth. 08/09, if analysed too much itís a dark road. The forward options weíve had since then, any of those and we bestride the league like a bronzed Adonis with Rafa on top like a God.
yoo im fucking dead hahaha

Straight facts geezer that team was amazing looking back like a few people have said selling Keane was a mistake. Also would helped to have had a faster winger as all our wide players were one paced

Offline Hellrazor

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7326 on: November 14, 2018, 08:47:59 AM »
yoo im fucking dead hahaha

Straight facts geezer that team was amazing looking back like a few people have said selling Keane was a mistake. Also would helped to have had a faster winger as all our wide players were one paced
Riera gave the team some nice balance, no pace but a good player. for that season alone i might add
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Offline GucciMane

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7327 on: November 14, 2018, 10:29:49 AM »
Riera gave the team some nice balance, no pace but a good player. for that season alone i might add
Reira was class he was very elegant on the ball. Him, Maxi, Yossi and Dirk was technically 7/10 but players with great in game.intelligence. They are all remembered fondly by me to be honest

Offline Hellrazor

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7328 on: November 14, 2018, 10:33:13 AM »
Reira was class he was very elegant on the ball. Him, Maxi, Yossi and Dirk was technically 7/10 but players with great in game.intelligence. They are all remembered fondly by me to be honest
yeah good honest hardworking versatile players
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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7329 on: November 14, 2018, 02:12:03 PM »
Riera's fight with Pacheco signaled his end here if I recall.

Offline Hellrazor

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7330 on: November 14, 2018, 02:27:11 PM »
Riera's fight with Pacheco signaled his end here if I recall.
yep it did, think he may have slagged rafa off in the media too

his second season was poor with us though
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Offline Clint Eastwood

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7331 on: November 14, 2018, 07:52:58 PM »
Wish I didn't click on this thread.

David Fucking Ngog

Offline Dubred

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7332 on: November 21, 2018, 03:59:52 PM »
My memory is sketchy all these years later......but why exactly was Keane sold after only a few months anyway?

I know he didn't exactly set the world alight but it was very unusual to not let him see at least the season out.

Was it the cowboys decision or did Rafa want shot for some reason?

Offline rowan_d

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7333 on: November 22, 2018, 03:24:27 AM »
He was so bad that we probably jumped at the opportunity to recoup the vast majority of the money we'd spent on him, and took it. Didn't even try to reinvest it though.

Offline Bjornar

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7334 on: November 22, 2018, 08:56:45 AM »
Yes. Selling Keane was a mistake but not replacing him criminal. Nígog got 2 league goals in 14 games, was young and raw and ultimately nowhere near good enough.

NīGog was like Solanke now, not a flashy player, but always did a job and contributed something. Keane for us was just a disaster.

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Offline Hellrazor

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7335 on: November 22, 2018, 08:59:16 AM »
NīGog was like Solanke now, not a flashy player, but always did a job and contributed something. Keane for us was just a disaster.


7 goals wasnt a disaster, im sure he would have doubled it by the end of the season though he did miss some bad chances with us.

just not sure rafa ever wanted him, he seemed to be a pawn in a power struggle between rafa and the board.

one theory i heard was he only wanted him if we got gareth barry for whatever system rafa wanted

as i said before i know who id prefer between him and ngog
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Offline Bjornar

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7336 on: November 22, 2018, 09:06:09 AM »
7 goals wasnt a disaster, im sure he would have doubled it by the end of the season though he did miss some bad chances with us.

just not sure rafa ever wanted him, he seemed to be a pawn in a power struggle between rafa and the board.

one theory i heard was he only wanted him if we got gareth barry for whatever system rafa wanted

as i said before i know who id prefer between him and ngog

Nothing against Keane, he was an OK player, but claiming that selling him was what was wrong that season is re-writing history.  We struggled when he was here, and became the best team in the world (for a short while) after he was sold.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 09:07:54 AM by Bjornar »
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Offline Hellrazor

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7337 on: November 22, 2018, 09:08:11 AM »
Nothing against Keane, he was an OK player, but claiming that selling him was what wrong that season is re-writing history and absurd.  We struggled when he was here, and became the best team in the world for a short while after he was sold.
we were top most of the time he was here and lost all of one game

it didnt work out for him here but he was on his worst day better than ngog on his best
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Offline Bjornar

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7338 on: November 22, 2018, 12:00:45 PM »
we were top most of the time he was here and lost all of one game

it didnt work out for him here but he was on his worst day better than ngog on his best

Both him and NīGog were good players, without impacting our great season much one way or the other.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 12:06:24 PM by Bjornar »
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Offline Hellrazor

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7339 on: November 22, 2018, 12:05:18 PM »
Both him and NīGog were good players, without impacting our great season much one way or the other.
true

they should have impacted more
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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7340 on: November 22, 2018, 12:09:21 PM »
Yeah, Robbie Keane was shite for us
I believe the average spend will go up £5 ahead and thatís being very conservative. So thatís £185k. Then you have a new 25k who will spend £10 a head thatís £250k. This is without the massively enhanced hospitality areas.

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7341 on: November 22, 2018, 12:21:29 PM »
Yes, the 20 mill record buy and the unproven striker coming through the ranks absolutely should both have equally impacted more. And if they didnīt, letīs blame the latter.
thats clearly not what i said, i agree with you and you still argue with me? weird!
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Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7342 on: November 22, 2018, 12:27:31 PM »
just not sure rafa ever wanted him, he seemed to be a pawn in a power struggle between rafa and the board.

one theory i heard was he only wanted him if we got gareth barry for whatever system rafa wanted

Partially right. If I remember, idea was to sell Alonso to fund Barry and Keane. Jovetic also, but as a backup.

But Rafa  bought Keane first and was told to plug the transfers because of the yanks. Alonso's move was stopped and so was Barry and Jovetic.

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7343 on: November 22, 2018, 12:31:07 PM »
Partially right. If I remember, idea was to sell Alonso to fund Barry and Keane. Jovetic also, but as a backup.

But Rafa  bought Keane first and was told to plug the transfers because of the yanks. Alonso's move was stopped and so was Barry and Jovetic.
not sure jovetic was coming that year

another one i heard was when alonso was sold the following year the funds were to go towards Barry, Jovetic and a centre back (talk of matthew upson which wouldnt have been great)

then when alonso went he wasnt given the money meaning jovetic didnt happen, we had to go for a cheaper centre back, distin was linked but we got the greek and then city beat us to barry anyway

them fucking cowboys! i thought we would never get shot of them
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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7344 on: November 22, 2018, 12:34:01 PM »
Partially right. If I remember, idea was to sell Alonso to fund Barry and Keane. Jovetic also, but as a backup.

But Rafa  bought Keane first and was told to plug the transfers because of the yanks. Alonso's move was stopped and so was Barry and Jovetic.

I don't think the idea was particularly to sell Xabi at all to be fair to Rafa, more that he had a few signings he wanted to make and was told he had to sell to buy
I believe the average spend will go up £5 ahead and thatís being very conservative. So thatís £185k. Then you have a new 25k who will spend £10 a head thatís £250k. This is without the massively enhanced hospitality areas.

Offline Bjornar

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7345 on: November 22, 2018, 12:34:14 PM »
thats clearly not what i said, i agree with you and you still argue with me? weird!

Youīre right, sorry about that.

Isnīt the elephant in the room from the Rafa era though, what if he never entertained selling Alonso and signing Keane/Barry?

« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 12:40:49 PM by Bjornar »
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Offline Hellrazor

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7346 on: November 22, 2018, 12:39:31 PM »
I don't think the idea was particularly to sell Xabi at all to be fair to Rafa, more that he had a few signings he wanted to make and was told he had to sell to buy
a little bit of both maybe

Youīre right, sorry about that.


ok no harm done,
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Offline jackh

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7347 on: November 22, 2018, 12:54:52 PM »
Both him and NīGog were good players, without impacting our great season much one way or the other.

Talking in broad strokes here, but I think that David N'Gog - in terms of impact upon team-shape - was a functional deputy to Fernando Torres...we could maintain the 4-2-3-1 and just about carry the burden of the drop in quality.

Don't see Robbie Keane as someone who would ever have suited a lone-striker role, and so to rely on him in Torres' absence would mean not only a drop in attacking quality, but a compromise in other areas of the pitch too.

Of course, had we signed Gareth Barry and sold Xabi Alonso, we could have lined up quite differently that season (a 3-1-4-2) perhaps: Reina, Agger-Carra-Skrtel, Dossena-Arbeloa, Barry-Masch-Gerrard, Keane-Torres.

Offline JamesG L4

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7348 on: November 23, 2018, 10:10:23 AM »
Keane played up front on his own against Arsenal, with Gerrard behind, and scored a great equaliser. Would have had 08/09 Keane on his own up front all day long over NíGog.
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Offline Hellrazor

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7349 on: November 23, 2018, 10:11:34 AM »
I cant believe what we are talking about is ten years ago

scary, no way it seems that long ago
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7350 on: November 23, 2018, 10:17:05 AM »
Had Keane perhaps played well against us at some point? Rafa sometimes based his transfer policy on that didnít he? We took Crouch because Rafa was impressed by his scoring twice against us. I have a feeling Keane did something similar.
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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7351 on: November 23, 2018, 10:21:09 AM »
Had Keane perhaps played well against us at some point? Rafa sometimes based his transfer policy on that didnít he? We took Crouch because Rafa was impressed by his scoring twice against us. I have a feeling Keane did something similar.
07-8 we drew 2-2 with spurs at Anfield and he scored two at a time Spurs were shit under Juande Ramos?

2007 i think he had more goals in that calendar year in the premier league than any other player, i am sure i read that somewhere

in general Keane was far from shit, i watched him play for Ireland for many years, he has 3 times as many goals as anyone else, scored in plenty of big games contrary to what people would say, and they are really stuck upfront since his legs went and he retired

he had his moments for us good and bad, he did miss some pretty bad chances at times. shame it didnt work out
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Offline rowan_d

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7352 on: November 23, 2018, 10:26:36 AM »
The manner of the misses made it seem much worse as well.

Like Suarez in 11/12 was narrowly missing the target from all sorts of great chances, but was getting close enough that you could at least attempt to brush it off and hope that they'd eventually start going in. In the 4 months Keane was with us, you couldn't even trust him to connect with the ball when a chance presented itself. It was absolutely bizarre how many airshots he was taking.

Based on his career up to that point, you could assume that they'd have stopped and he'd have calmed down enough to focus on just making proper contact with the ball, but when you're battling at the top of the league you can't really afford to wait.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 10:29:15 AM by rowan_d »

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7353 on: November 23, 2018, 10:37:30 AM »
The manner of the misses made it seem much worse as well.

Like Suarez in 11/12 was narrowly missing the target from all sorts of great chances, but was getting close enough that you could at least attempt to brush it off and hope that they'd eventually start going in. In the 4 months Keane was with us, you couldn't even trust him to connect with the ball when a chance presented itself. It was absolutely bizarre how many airshots he was taking.

Based on his career up to that point, you could assume that they'd have stopped and he'd have calmed down enough to focus on just making proper contact with the ball, but when you're battling at the top of the league you can't really afford to wait.
bolton away stick out for some reason for that

Atletico madrid he did that. we were 1 up through him, then he could have made it two, ball came across and he tried to back heel it in and missed. was the sort of thing you try when 6-0 up, not 1-0

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Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7354 on: November 23, 2018, 10:49:12 AM »
Had Keane perhaps played well against us at some point? Rafa sometimes based his transfer policy on that didnít he? We took Crouch because Rafa was impressed by his scoring twice against us. I have a feeling Keane did something similar.

I would take a rough guess and say Rafa preferred leaders, fighters and hard workers. Take for example the best starting XI under Rafa. Say, the 2008/09 season.

Torres
Benny - Gerrard - Kuyt
Alonso - Mascha
Aurelio - Carra - Hyypia - Arbeloa
Reina

Torres was Atletico 2nd captain. Benny was Israel captain. Kuyt was a hard worker. Alonso was a hard worker. Mascha was a fighter. Aurelio was, well questionable. But that's why it was a problem area for us back then. Carra was a leader and fighter. Hyypia was a leader and fighter. Arbeloa was a hard worker. Reina was a leader and fighter. We had Lucas who was a hard worker and I think he was Gremio Vice Captain. Babel was a hard worker, even though he hardly worked. Agger, Skrtel, Spearing, El Zhar, Darby, Degen, Insua, Plessis, and Nemeth formed the rest of the squad.

We looked at Keane was because he was a hard worker. He did all the work behind Berbatov at Tottenham. Berbatov was a lazy goat. Keane, on the other hand, was not. He worked very very well as a second striker. But we had Gerrard in that AM/SS position. And he was the best out there. So, having Babel (who preferred a central role as opposed to the LW position) and Riera (who was a LW but hardly ever set that role for himself with his attacking mentality leaving Aurelio/Insua exposed) might have made sense if Keane was working as a second striker behind Babel. That way, rotating Benny and Kuyt on the right with Mascha behind them in a sort of 4-4-1-1 role would have been our plan-B. Plus Benny could also play the AM/SS role albeit with less effect. But it was possible.

Hellrazor doesnt think so, but I think we had our sights on Jovetic from Partizan in the summer of 2008. Jovetic was Partizan's youngest ever captain back then. That would have liberated Babel upfront and we would have been 9 players for 6 positions. But because of the Alonso situation, Barry, Jovetic and Upson/Distin never materialised. And we ended up buying Keane without the rest and had to settle for titbit transfers. If only we had beaten Middlesbourough. Sigh!

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7355 on: November 23, 2018, 12:44:02 PM »
Where did Jovetic go in the end? Did he play for an English club or is that someone else?
I believe the average spend will go up £5 ahead and thatís being very conservative. So thatís £185k. Then you have a new 25k who will spend £10 a head thatís £250k. This is without the massively enhanced hospitality areas.

Offline deFacto

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7356 on: November 23, 2018, 12:47:25 PM »
Where did Jovetic go in the end? Did he play for an English club or is that someone else?

He stayed put in Fiorentina, he ended up at City several years later

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7357 on: November 23, 2018, 01:04:16 PM »
Talking in broad strokes here, but I think that David N'Gog - in terms of impact upon team-shape - was a functional deputy to Fernando Torres...we could maintain the 4-2-3-1 and just about carry the burden of the drop in quality.

Don't see Robbie Keane as someone who would ever have suited a lone-striker role, and so to rely on him in Torres' absence would mean not only a drop in attacking quality, but a compromise in other areas of the pitch too.

Of course, had we signed Gareth Barry and sold Xabi Alonso, we could have lined up quite differently that season (a 3-1-4-2) perhaps: Reina, Agger-Carra-Skrtel, Dossena-Arbeloa, Barry-Masch-Gerrard, Keane-Torres.


Think this is the crux of it. Whatever Rafa did  (like signing Crouch, playing Lucas sometimes over Alonso and so on), whether you agreed or not you could at least usually see the logic behind it. Keane, while not being a bad player, just didnīt fit into our system. It was easy to spot from day one, hence why he was moved on so soon. Just a strange signing.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 01:11:05 PM by Bjornar »
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Offline Hellrazor

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7358 on: November 23, 2018, 03:54:56 PM »
Where did Jovetic go in the end? Did he play for an English club or is that someone else?
yeah he did, he looked good when he played but was always injured

he scored against us the september after we were meant to get him (well i think it was summer 2009 anyway). id say rafa was seething.

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Re: Fernando Torres
« Reply #7359 on: June 14, 2019, 02:09:53 AM »
I read he hasn't scored since November in Japan. Not sure how much sympathy he'll get from other Reds (personally I forgave him years ago and look back on his time here very fondly now) but from a pure footballing point of view, very sad to see the decline of what was once arguably the best #9 on the planet.