Author Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread  (Read 12264790 times)

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98960 on: February 11, 2019, 08:53:17 am »
At a top club, those sub-elite players won't win you games. They are there to "subsidise" the career of that one elite talent who WILL make it into first team football at a big club. That's the ugly truth of youth and elite development

But Top clubs do have sub-elite players in their squads, and they actually spend money on transfers to get sub-elite players. Why do that, when additional attention to the academy can save those funds?

These days the cost of sub-elite players is insanely high, and in the Premier League especially. The starting price for an unproven at the top level sub-elite player is 15m (considering how much a player of Ibe's ilk cost).

Suso is a fantastic example of a sub-elite but pushing at a good level kind of talent. If Milan was in the PL and considering how much of a regular he is and that he has 10 or more G+A in 4 of last 5 seasons, imagine how much would he cost. I think he'd be 35m in the market easy. If he was English, add another 15-20m. He'd be around 50m plus if he was proven in the PL and English. That's where we're operating now. It's not a criticism, but we did let go of him for free (also considering Suso didn't want to sign with us, and that's were the cycle comes - lack of opportunities).

If elite players can go for 70m+ in this market, sub-elite players can go for 15m to 50m easy. It's just that Top clubs are more inclined to spend that develop, because they can afford it and since they can afford it, it stops/reduces academy players from coming through. That's the cycle. If young players don't get chances at an age when coming through, the development phase gets altered and players suffer for it. Opportunities definitely play a part in the how players develop.

You could flip it and say that elite talents will get chances, but I'd say the young players who became elite did, because they got chances. There are plenty of others who have suffered in development without opportunities.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 09:00:45 am by PoetryInMotion »

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98961 on: February 11, 2019, 08:59:53 am »
Says who?

Need not be said. It's obvious. See how many useless minutes is Foden getting (The few minutes he's getting is in absolutely useless games). They need 2 times more of an injury crisis than we had when we promoted TAA to our lineup to give that kind of a chance to an academy player. Because they've that much depth already in their squad.

See the sequence of events from last season. Mendy gets injured, Guardiola tries Danilo LB first instinct. Then Danilo is needed at RB as well, then 2nd instinct is to bring an out of position player in Delph to play LB. Then he shows poor form or is not available, then finally Zinchenko comes in.  Now if Mendy is back, Zinchenko will go back to the cave. This, in a position where they're not as stocked as in others. I can't imagine them giving consistent minutes to an academy player at CM/AM/Wide positions. It's not going to happen.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98962 on: February 11, 2019, 09:09:46 am »
Need not be said. It's obvious. See how many useless minutes is Foden getting (The few minutes he's getting is in absolutely useless games). They need 2 times more of an injury crisis than we had when we promoted TAA to our lineup to give that kind of a chance to an academy player. Because they've that much depth already in their squad.

See the sequence of events from last season. Mendy gets injured, Guardiola tries Danilo LB first instinct. Then Danilo is needed at RB as well, then 2nd instinct is to bring an out of position player in Delph to play LB. Then he shows poor form or is not available, then finally Zinchenko comes in.  Now if Mendy is back, Zinchenko will go back to the cave. This, in a position where they're not as stocked as in others. I can't imagine them giving consistent minutes to an academy player at CM/AM/Wide positions. It's not going to happen.

Foden is not a top class talent. He's decent, but he's not a "future world class" player. My statement was that top class youth academy players are not being held back. The players who are being "held back" are the players who aren't top class. They might be very good, but "very good" is not enough to displace experienced senior professionals. Messi made the first team at 18. Neymar racked up 46 appearances at 17. Cristiano Ronaldo had 31 first team appearances at 17/18. Top class talent doesn't get held back. If anything, it gets overused too early. If City had the new Messi on their books, he'd be playing right now. They don't, though. So they stick with what they have in the senior ranks. It's a false economy to think that every player is the same and deserves the same chances. It doesn't work like that. There's only one question asked by any manager about any player - "Will this player help me win games?". And if the answer is "Yes", then they will play.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98963 on: February 11, 2019, 09:21:35 am »
You have to be as good as the greatest player ever to break through is not a good argument for city, or any club giving academy players a chance.

Theres plenty of rubbish players in brazil and portugal who'll get good game time as well because those teams have to give academy kids a chance, they dont just save those minutes for the greatest players of their generations.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 09:24:45 am by Chris~ »

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98964 on: February 11, 2019, 09:28:37 am »
You have to be as good as the greatest player ever to break through is not a good argument for city, or any club giving academy players a chance

No, that IS the argument mate. Sorry. If you want a chance at a club that can spend 100 million on a single player if they wished, then yes, you have to be fucking legendary to break through from the Academy and hold down a starting spot. Or should they drop seasoned trophy-winning, high-wage professionals to give some kids a good feeling about themselves even if they don't have the chops to be top class players?

I'm not being an ass, I just really don't see where your coming from here with regards to the big clubs - if a player is good enough to compete with an established first teamer, then they'll play. It's as simple as that. No club is going to let a prized youth asset who is - as much as anything else, almost all profit if they are shit-hot as a player - fall behind and be held back by not being selected. If they are ambitious, they will want them on that team helping to create wins. If they are interested in revenue, they'll want that player in the shop window at the very least.

Top talents don't get "held back". Average ones or better-than-average ones will see their opportunities restricted. That's the game though, and it was ever thus, even before big money came into it.
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Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98965 on: February 11, 2019, 09:31:30 am »
They might be very good, but "very good" is not enough to displace experienced senior professionals.
snip

Why?

Do you deny that even top clubs have sub-elite/rotational/squad players?

If there are "very good" young players, why do top clubs spend 30m+ to get similar level squad players? I'm flipping your argument about Neymar and Messi. They are what they're now because they got opportunities at that stage. Santos gave him the chances, but do you think every player who was given chances at Brazil become elite? Santos gave Robinho similar chances in 2002, when he was 17/18 just like they did to Neymar at such a young age. Did Robinho become elite? It's not an exact science at ages 17-18 for everyone/clubs to know who will and will not become elite and say we won't give chances to those who won't become elite. Messi came through, because Barca were genuinely interested in giving chances to their academy graduates. Pedro and Sergi Roberto also came through Barca, but nobody is calling them elite, right?

If you think it's that generic and every top club follows a similar model with respect to just promoting elite talents and discarding anything below that, then do you think Pedro is an elite player? I don't think so. Yet, he got the opportunities at Barca, and became the player he is now, which is "very good", but not elite, because Barca are a club who're decent at bringing players through the academy. Yes, they spend a lot as well, but they look at academy players from time to time. But how many other Top Clubs do that?

Do you think Mbappe could've come through PSG as easy as he did at Monaco? Yes, now we know he's Mbappe because he was given the opportunity at Monaco, but what if he was not? Do you think PSG would've spashed the cash on him without those chances at Monaco? Or would they have given him the same opportunities like Monaco did if he came through PSG academy?

Money is just not an 'EXCUSE' not to look at your academy. It just says incompetence/disinterest with the respective club's academy. Even Top clubs can bring through squad players instead of giving big cash for squad/non-elite players - see Barca. But most top clubs just don't/can't do it better, and take the easier route with spending because they can afford to. Why are Chelsea buying all those players/loaning them out and then selling them for big money? Just to bring elite talents in? Do you think they believed that all the 40 youngsters they bought and have them out on loan are elite? No. They do that because they can sell better and that they have no clue how to do that with their academy players, so they take the easier route of sending them to other clubs who will give these kids chances & then hope to hit the jackpot with a few. If every club knew how to do the same with their own academy players or had a complete idea about developing young players from talents to elite players, then they will do that, believe me. But development is not linear and they just don't know how to do that is all.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 09:41:48 am by PoetryInMotion »

Offline ThePoolMan

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98966 on: February 11, 2019, 09:36:43 am »
No, that IS the argument mate. Sorry. If you want a chance at a club that can spend 100 million on a single player if they wished, then yes, you have to be fucking legendary to break through from the Academy and hold down a starting spot. Or should they drop seasoned trophy-winning, high-wage professionals to give some kids a good feeling about themselves even if they don't have the chops to be top class players?

I'm not being an ass, I just really don't see where your coming from here with regards to the big clubs - if a player is good enough to compete with an established first teamer, then they'll play. It's as simple as that. No club is going to let a prized youth asset who is - as much as anything else, almost all profit if they are shit-hot as a player - fall behind and be held back by not being selected. If they are ambitious, they will want them on that team helping to create wins. If they are interested in revenue, they'll want that player in the shop window at the very least.

Top talents don't get "held back". Average ones or better-than-average ones will see their opportunities restricted. That's the game though, and it was ever thus, even before big money came into it.

Is Sancho an "elite talent" then in your view, Phase of Play, or is he a "sub-elite" talent? If he was an elite level talent, then the problem was is that he believed that he was not going to be treated as an elite talent and that instead he would not get enough games. If he was a sub-elite talent, then he is giving a pretty good impression of being an elite talent in the Bundesliga to the level that Premiership clubs are said to be interested in him...

This reminds me of the situation that Kevin De Bruyne faced in Chelsea...

 

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98967 on: February 11, 2019, 09:43:47 am »
Why?

Do you deny that even top clubs have sub-elite/rotational/squad players?

If there are "very good" young players, why do top clubs spend 30m+ to get similar level squad players? I'm flipping your argument about Neymar and Messi. They are what they're now because they got opportunities at that stage.


God no. No, no, and a thousand times no.

They are what they because they have talent and work rate. Players may go off the rails once they make it (Robinho, for example), but they get their chance because they stand out from their peers, then they stand out from most of the senior professionals who don't have their talent, once the start playing against them.

I'll give you another example - Gareth Bale. 40-something games at age 18 for Southampton.

Talent will out. Professionalism will keep them there. Work ethic will make them great.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98968 on: February 11, 2019, 09:46:30 am »
Is Sancho an "elite talent" then in your view, Phase of Play, or is he a "sub-elite" talent? If he was an elite level talent, then the problem was is that he believed that he was not going to be treated as an elite talent and that instead he would not get enough games. If he was a sub-elite talent, then he is giving a pretty good impression of being an elite talent in the Bundesliga to the level that Premiership clubs are said to be interested in him...

This reminds me of the situation that Kevin De Bruyne faced in Chelsea...


De Bruyne wasn't a Chelsea academy player.

And Sancho left (from what I read) City because he wasn't given playing time assurances written into his contract. Not because he didn't think he was going to get a chance.
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Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98969 on: February 11, 2019, 09:47:47 am »
Is Sancho an "elite talent" then in your view, Phase of Play, or is he a "sub-elite" talent? If he was an elite level talent, then the problem was is that he believed that he was not going to be treated as an elite talent and that instead he would not get enough games. If he was a sub-elite talent, then he is giving a pretty good impression of being an elite talent in the Bundesliga to the level that Premiership clubs are said to be interested in him...

This reminds me of the situation that Kevin De Bruyne faced in Chelsea...

It's plain hindsight and escapism to say that those who come through are elite and those who don't are not elite.

For every Neymar, you have a Robinho. Both of them came through at the same club.

For every Messi, you have a Pedro or Sergi Roberto. See the 5 players who came through in just 2 clubs and you can find it all diverse. Two elite players, two good to very good and one not making the cut at the top level at all.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98970 on: February 11, 2019, 09:49:30 am »
I'm out ;D

There's a reason I stay out of this thread in general :)

It's really not good for my health ;D ;D ;D
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98971 on: February 11, 2019, 09:57:30 am »
No, that IS the argument mate. Sorry. If you want a chance at a club that can spend 100 million on a single player if they wished, then yes, you have to be fucking legendary to break through from the Academy and hold down a starting spot. Or should they drop seasoned trophy-winning, high-wage professionals to give some kids a good feeling about themselves even if they don't have the chops to be top class players?

I'm not being an ass, I just really don't see where your coming from here with regards to the big clubs - if a player is good enough to compete with an established first teamer, then they'll play. It's as simple as that. No club is going to let a prized youth asset who is - as much as anything else, almost all profit if they are shit-hot as a player - fall behind and be held back by not being selected. If they are ambitious, they will want them on that team helping to create wins. If they are interested in revenue, they'll want that player in the shop window at the very least.

Top talents don't get "held back". Average ones or better-than-average ones will see their opportunities restricted. That's the game though, and it was ever thus, even before big money came into it.
Clubs can view it like that and I don't disagree they do, but they're wrong to. They're the ones who in England will start to miss out on a lot of really good young players who are coming through, whether it be through their academy or brought in.

Your argument was that players need to be as good as De Bruyne, Silva, Mahrez, Sterling etc. to play, I agree that's how managers view it and will, because Guardiola wants to win now, his legacy will matter if he wins now. And someone like Sancho doesn't have thousands of minutes behind him to show he could help with that. The counter to that is that players like Sterling, or really any of that City lot, at 17/18 wouldn't have been good enough to displace their 20+ year old selves, they had to go out on loan, go through the lower leagues, get game time away from worse players than the absolute elite. If your waiting around for Messi to come through your going to miss out on talented players, City have missed out on the best teenager in the world because of that already.

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98972 on: February 11, 2019, 09:58:45 am »
God no. No, no, and a thousand times no.

They are what they because they have talent and work rate. Players may go off the rails once they make it (Robinho, for example), but they get their chance because they stand out from their peers, then they stand out from most of the senior professionals who don't have their talent, once the start playing against them.

I'll give you another example - Gareth Bale. 40-something games at age 18 for Southampton.

Talent will out. Professionalism will keep them there. Work ethic will make them great.

You're ignoring the counter-examples and is just focusing on the elite players who came through. Let's go Southampton.

Calum Chambers - 23 appearances at age 18 for Southampton. 36 appearances at Arsenal at age 19. Is he elite?

Wayne Bridge - 24 appearances at 17. 45 appearances at 19. Did he turn-out elite?

Theo Walcott - 23 appearances for Southampton at 16. 32 appearances for Arsenal at 17. 39 appearances at 18. Elite?

James Ward-Prowse - 39 appearances for Southampton at 18.

Just says a lot of players have come through at Southampton. That is all.

 

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98973 on: February 11, 2019, 05:44:50 pm »
Ultimately, what we're debating here is whether the 'cream rises to the top'.

My feeling is that in a lot of cases where a young kid gets chucked in, it's because of injuries to more senior squad members that they get their chance. For example, if Gomez and Lovren aren't injured, Ki-Jana Hoever gets nowhere near a game against Wolves. If Clyne isn't injured, Trent doesn't make his breakthrough. If Fowler isn't injured, Owen gets less games in 97/98. If Redknapp isn't injured, Gerrard doesn't play so many games early on... and so on and so on.

BUT, there's just no way to telling whether those players would have made it through eventually. We can speculate about it, but we don't know for sure. Some will argue that they would have forced their way in somehow because they're that good, and others will suggest that the early exposure to top level football was a crucial part of their development. To some extent it depends on the individual. What's true is that they wouldn't be chucked in, even in case of injury, unless they had something that the manager saw in them.

Equally, it's a complete unknown which players that didn't make it might have done in other circumstances. We can point at players like San Jose, Paletta, Suso and Alberto who have gone onto do really well in different countries, but I can't think of any examples of players that have been let go early at Liverpool and have then gone onto make us really wish we'd kept them. Then again... I can only think of two players we've produced to elite level since Academies came in, Trent and Sterling. Two is hardly a pattern.

We just don't know how many more would reach an elite level of performance given the chance. If those players are out there, having failed to reach their potential, it's very hard for anyone to say definitively who they are. The margins between success and failure are so slim in elite sport, the slightest difference at a crucial stage can make a huge difference to the eventual outcome.

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98974 on: February 11, 2019, 06:35:04 pm »
^^
Agree with everything said.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98975 on: February 11, 2019, 06:37:04 pm »
Sorry, lads/lasses. But having been involved in player development for nigh on 20 years, having worked with youth players who went on to be professionals and internationals in a few cases, I can say with a good measure of certainty, that most here have a really idealised and incorrect view of elite youth development. Truly top class players aren't held back. They are, in fact, promoted quite readily. The sad truth is that most players in the academy level will only ever have good and steady careers. Some will have great careers but will be "water-carriers" for the teams they end up playing for (not unskilled, but not the standout player in a top team, either). And then a small percentage will become all-time greats. And a further percentage will drop out of the game altogether, or become coaches instead of players.

But for anyone to sit here and say that just because youth academy players aren't getting their chance at City, or Chelsea, or whoever, that they are not ever going to reach their full potential, and that we won't know a Messi unless they are given a run of games, is naive at best. We ALWAYS know that player. They ALWAYS stand out. Whether they become a great is largely up to their professionalism and dedication and ability to turn talent into consistency (see the aforementioned Robinho, but also Balotelli for a more polar extreme example). But they were never "hidden" behind 2 or 3 inferior, but senior, players at their clubs. They were obvious talents. Barca didn't sign Messi up on a napkin in Argentina on the flip of a coin. They saw what he could become with the right guidance. They didn't take all of his youth team-mates as well, just in case it was the coaching that made Messi great at that age. They took Messi. Here is a good article about Barca signing Messi. When you see that player, you know. You don't know how far they'll go, but you know that they have the tools to go far if they apply themselves: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/oct/15/lionel-messi-barcelona-decade

It's all relative. Academy players in general stand out from their local peers, and that's why they become Academy players. Then in the Academy, they stand out from their team-mates, so they get to play up an age when allowed. Then they stand out from their select peers who get to play up an age, and they train with the first team squad. Then they stand out from the squad players, so they get put on the bench. Then they stand out from the bench players, so they get a start. Then they stand out from the starters, so they get a run. Then they stand out from the league, and they become a transfer target. Then they stand out from the opposition, and they become a great.

Everyone's progress is measured on that ladder just there, and everyone has an upper limit. It's not like players go home and do nothing from game to game, and then just turn up an hour before kick-off and the manager has to guess who is capable of what. They are constantly being informed by their staff of the progress of the Academy players in training, and if anyone stands out, they will be urged to have a look at them, and if they like what they see, they have them work with the first team, and if they stand out in first team training, they get minutes. That's the process. No manager is going to come across a top class Academy player, watch them turn the starters inside out (or mark them out of a training game), and then say "You know what? I don't need that player. Keep him with the other kids". My mind boggles that anyone would think it was different than that.
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Offline RayPhilAlan

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98976 on: February 11, 2019, 07:39:30 pm »
Sorry, lads/lasses. But having been involved in player development for nigh on 20 years, having worked with youth players who went on to be professionals and internationals in a few cases, I can say with a good measure of certainty, that most here have a really idealised and incorrect view of elite youth development. Truly top class players aren't held back. They are, in fact, promoted quite readily.

snip


 No manager is going to come across a top class Academy player, watch them turn the starters inside out (or mark them out of a training game), and then say "You know what? I don't need that player. Keep him with the other kids". My mind boggles that anyone would think it was different than that.

Really interesting debate - thanks for that to all of you contributing for your insights.

POP - everything you say makes sense in most cases and most clubs. I think where others are disagreeing with you is that at a few clubs it just becomes a greater level of difficulty for that top class Academy player to come through. It's an extra challenge for the player at Man City, for instance, beyond what they'd have at Southampton. We know Pep Guardiola doesn't mind bringing through youth players when they're good enough - Pedro was cited above. But would Pedro have got a chance as a teenager if he was competing with the 20-25 year old versions of Sterling, Sane, Mahrez, the Silva brothers and Kevin de Bruyne? He might be considered such a good player that the club wouldn't want to release him, but he's not going to get a start in an important match.

Same with Harry Wilson, to bring it back to Liverpool. A lot of us think he's the best attacker we've produced in some time. But is he going to get games ahead of Salah or Mane?

You've said that players come through if they have the talent and the determination required (not an exact quote from you, excuse the paraphrase). Surely, though, it weakens the determination if they're not getting games and they can see little prospect of getting games because, good as the Academy player is, they're not as good as the guy getting the starts?

So Jadon Sancho has the determination, and decided he would do something about it. Another player might not. It will be interesting to see what happens what happens with Phil Foden. Will it ever happen that Pep, coming to Anfield, will say "Foden or de Bruyne/Silva today? Hmm, think I'll go with Foden."

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98977 on: February 11, 2019, 07:40:37 pm »
I think the idea is that playing first team football will improve the player. So you don't know the full picture until he has had a run in the side.
Personally, I don't think that is realistic. The manager only has one job, to win games. He has to pick the best squad at his disposal. For an Academy player, it's the same as anyone else. Prove that you're worth it. Show the boss what you can do. If you are good enough, better than other options, then you will play.
I don't think we want to see a load of kids thrown in at the expense of the team. We try it in the cups and it rarely works.

People talk about Owen, but what about Lee Jones? He was around at the same time, and scored goals for fun for the reserves but he wasn't good enough and he never broke through, even with the exact same opportunities and the exact same coaches and management. Whatever Owen had, he didn't. And nor did Pacheco, or Mellor, or Morgan or any of the other dozens of strikers we have seen tear it up at youth level. If they had, they would have been used.

I remember the outcry when we let Jay Spearing go. And Guthrie. Anyone want them back?

The sad truth is that only a very small number of players is ever going to break through here and have a career here. But that's because we have one of the best squads on the planet, which is, after all, the most important thing here.
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Offline stevo7

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98978 on: February 11, 2019, 07:49:38 pm »
Sorry, lads/lasses. But having been involved in player development for nigh on 20 years, having worked with youth players who went on to be professionals and internationals in a few cases, I can say with a good measure of certainty, that most here have a really idealised and incorrect view of elite youth development. Truly top class players aren't held back. They are, in fact, promoted quite readily. The sad truth is that most players in the academy level will only ever have good and steady careers. Some will have great careers but will be "water-carriers" for the teams they end up playing for (not unskilled, but not the standout player in a top team, either). And then a small percentage will become all-time greats. And a further percentage will drop out of the game altogether, or become coaches instead of players.


My Nephew has been at an Academy for 9 years. My brother turned down Man City, Man Utd & Liverpool for different reasons who wanted him at the time.
He plays for his country in European competition.
He may make it, He may not - I'm not a coach, so haven't a clue. But it's great to see his development & he enjoy's playing.

Offline BrandoLFC

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98979 on: February 11, 2019, 07:56:15 pm »
Really interesting debate - thanks for that to all of you contributing for your insights.

POP - everything you say makes sense in most cases and most clubs. I think where others are disagreeing with you is that at a few clubs it just becomes a greater level of difficulty for that top class Academy player to come through. It's an extra challenge for the player at Man City, for instance, beyond what they'd have at Southampton. We know Pep Guardiola doesn't mind bringing through youth players when they're good enough - Pedro was cited above. But would Pedro have got a chance as a teenager if he was competing with the 20-25 year old versions of Sterling, Sane, Mahrez, the Silva brothers and Kevin de Bruyne? He might be considered such a good player that the club wouldn't want to release him, but he's not going to get a start in an important match.

Same with Harry Wilson, to bring it back to Liverpool. A lot of us think he's the best attacker we've produced in some time. But is he going to get games ahead of Salah or Mane?

You've said that players come through if they have the talent and the determination required (not an exact quote from you, excuse the paraphrase). Surely, though, it weakens the determination if they're not getting games and they can see little prospect of getting games because, good as the Academy player is, they're not as good as the guy getting the starts?

So Jadon Sancho has the determination, and decided he would do something about it. Another player might not. It will be interesting to see what happens what happens with Phil Foden. Will it ever happen that Pep, coming to Anfield, will say "Foden or de Bruyne/Silva today? Hmm, think I'll go with Foden."

I don't really understand what you're arguing here.  Wilson should get games over Mane and Salah just because he's from the Academy?  Foden should play when he's not better than De Bruyne or Silva?  The clubs see these players train for years yet we here know better?

Sancho is a great, and also extreme, example in that would anybody actually take him over Sterling or Sane?  So he moved on to a club where he could play regularly and it benefited all involved.  Happens every day to every player that can't play at the top level, there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't even know what to make of your Pedro example.  Pep played a 21 year old Messi and Pique while Busquets was 19 in a season in which they won La Liga and the CL.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98980 on: February 11, 2019, 08:00:30 pm »
My Nephew has been at an Academy for 9 years. My brother turned down Man City, Man Utd & Liverpool for different reasons who wanted him at the time.
He plays for his country in European competition.
He may make it, He may not - I'm not a coach, so haven't a clue. But it's great to see his development & he enjoy's playing.

Ultimately, that's what it's all about. If he's not the absolute standout player of his age group, then he needs to become a hard worker (if he isn't already) and get a ton of luck and/or contacts. There's more chance of a solid career in football from the academies then there is of playing for one of the bigger clubs as a starter (statistically). But ultimately, it comes down to their own enjoyment, motivation and experience. There used to be a saying - we're not coaching players, we're coaching future coaches. Kids like your nephew may or may not make it, but they'll learn the process that might help them to help someone who will, in the future. The overall experience of being an elite youth player is worth it. The chances of being a top starter are statistically small. So it's always best to look at it from a holistic point of view than to look at it specifically about getting the big contracts at the big clubs.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98981 on: February 11, 2019, 08:03:28 pm »
I don't really understand what you're arguing here.  Wilson should get games over Mane and Salah just because he's from the Academy?  Foden should play when he's not better than De Bruyne or Silva?  The clubs see these players train for years yet we here know better?

Sancho is a great, and also extreme, example in that would anybody actually take him over Sterling or Sane?  So he moved on to a club where he could play regularly and it benefited all involved.  Happens every day to every player that can't play at the top level, there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't even know what to make of your Pedro example.  Pep played a 21 year old Messi and Pique while Busquets was 19 in a season in which they won La Liga and the CL.

I would have taken Sancho over everyone at that club he looked like an obvious world beater and better than any other English player not named Rooney at the same age.. in recent years.

Offline stevo7

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98982 on: February 11, 2019, 08:13:56 pm »
Ultimately, that's what it's all about. If he's not the absolute standout player of his age group, then he needs to become a hard worker (if he isn't already) and get a ton of luck and/or contacts. There's more chance of a solid career in football from the academies then there is of playing for one of the bigger clubs as a starter (statistically). But ultimately, it comes down to their own enjoyment, motivation and experience. There used to be a saying - we're not coaching players, we're coaching future coaches. Kids like your nephew may or may not make it, but they'll learn the process that might help them to help someone who will, in the future. The overall experience of being an elite youth player is worth it. The chances of being a top starter are statistically small. So it's always best to look at it from a holistic point of view than to look at it specifically about getting the big contracts at the big clubs.

Thanks for feedback. His head is screwed on and he lives at home. Seeing his development since travelling abroad with his country has been interesting.
Ste Gerrard had a go at him when his team played Liverpool, so he can't be doing too much wrong. Although I hope he doesn't end up at Rangers.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98983 on: February 11, 2019, 08:18:57 pm »
I would have taken Sancho over everyone at that club he looked like an obvious world beater and better than any other English player not named Rooney at the same age.. in recent years.

If that means you'd stop fellating over Hazard then I'd have to agree as well ;)

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98984 on: February 11, 2019, 09:57:37 pm »
Sorry, lads/lasses. But having been involved in player development for nigh on 20 years, having worked with youth players who went on to be professionals and internationals in a few cases, I can say with a good measure of certainty, that most here have a really idealised and incorrect view of elite youth development. Truly top class players aren't held back. They are, in fact, promoted quite readily. The sad truth is that most players in the academy level will only ever have good and steady careers. Some will have great careers but will be "water-carriers" for the teams they end up playing for (not unskilled, but not the standout player in a top team, either). And then a small percentage will become all-time greats. And a further percentage will drop out of the game altogether, or become coaches instead of players.

But for anyone to sit here and say that just because youth academy players aren't getting their chance at City, or Chelsea, or whoever, that they are not ever going to reach their full potential, and that we won't know a Messi unless they are given a run of games, is naive at best. We ALWAYS know that player. They ALWAYS stand out. Whether they become a great is largely up to their professionalism and dedication and ability to turn talent into consistency (see the aforementioned Robinho, but also Balotelli for a more polar extreme example). But they were never "hidden" behind 2 or 3 inferior, but senior, players at their clubs. They were obvious talents. Barca didn't sign Messi up on a napkin in Argentina on the flip of a coin. They saw what he could become with the right guidance. They didn't take all of his youth team-mates as well, just in case it was the coaching that made Messi great at that age. They took Messi. Here is a good article about Barca signing Messi. When you see that player, you know. You don't know how far they'll go, but you know that they have the tools to go far if they apply themselves: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/oct/15/lionel-messi-barcelona-decade

It's all relative. Academy players in general stand out from their local peers, and that's why they become Academy players. Then in the Academy, they stand out from their team-mates, so they get to play up an age when allowed. Then they stand out from their select peers who get to play up an age, and they train with the first team squad. Then they stand out from the squad players, so they get put on the bench. Then they stand out from the bench players, so they get a start. Then they stand out from the starters, so they get a run. Then they stand out from the league, and they become a transfer target. Then they stand out from the opposition, and they become a great.

Everyone's progress is measured on that ladder just there, and everyone has an upper limit. It's not like players go home and do nothing from game to game, and then just turn up an hour before kick-off and the manager has to guess who is capable of what. They are constantly being informed by their staff of the progress of the Academy players in training, and if anyone stands out, they will be urged to have a look at them, and if they like what they see, they have them work with the first team, and if they stand out in first team training, they get minutes. That's the process. No manager is going to come across a top class Academy player, watch them turn the starters inside out (or mark them out of a training game), and then say "You know what? I don't need that player. Keep him with the other kids". My mind boggles that anyone would think it was different than that.
Much of what you're saying makes lots of sense, obviously, but I do think you have to look at the cases of Foden and Sancho as counter examples.

Sancho is clearly an elite level talent, but City have Sterling, Mahrez and Sane.
Foden won the golden ball at the FIFA U17 World Cup (if that's not standing out in the way you describe, I don't know what is), but City have KDB, the Silvas and Gundogan.

The pathway is blocked for those two elite talents. One of them has gone elsewhere for games and is flourishing, and the other has stayed put and is making cameo appearances.

It's not just City either. Ademola Lookman is another one. He was much better off in Germany than he is at Everton. I'm sure Hudson-Odoi would have benefitted from games too if he'd been allowed to leave Chelsea.

These players need to be playing proper competitive senior football at 18/19/20. If they spend those years playing U23 and making do with sporadic League Cup games, their careers will suffer. As I've said a fair bit on this thread (to the irritation of many), I massively do not believe in the U23 league as a breeding ground for top level talent.

And whilst your Messi/Balotelli/Mbappe/Vinícius Júnior type talents are all fast-tracked into first teams because they're so ridiculously good at an early age, you surely know as well as I do (if not better) that players can develop later and still reach an elite level.

Andy Robertson is arguably the best left-back in the league now. He wasn't getting fast-tracked anywhere at the age of 17.

Job Flanagan was never and will never be an elite talent, but during the 13/14 season he was thrown in at the deep end, sink or swim. He swam (somehow), nearly won the league and even made an England squad.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 10:00:47 pm by KingKolo »

Offline stevo7

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98985 on: February 11, 2019, 10:05:08 pm »
snip
I don't know what country you are from.  Do you support Corbyn?

Offline BrandoLFC

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98986 on: February 11, 2019, 10:30:25 pm »
Much of what you're saying makes lots of sense, obviously, but I do think you have to look at the cases of Foden and Sancho as counter examples.

Sancho is clearly an elite level talent, but City have Sterling, Mahrez and Sane.
Foden won the golden ball at the FIFA U17 World Cup (if that's not standing out in the way you describe, I don't know what is), but City have KDB, the Silvas and Gundogan.

The pathway is blocked for those two elite talents. One of them has gone elsewhere for games and is flourishing, and the other has stayed put and is making cameo appearances.

It's not just City either. Ademola Lookman is another one. He was much better off in Germany than he is at Everton. I'm sure Hudson-Odoi would have benefitted from games too if he'd been allowed to leave Chelsea.

These players need to be playing proper competitive senior football at 18/19/20. If they spend those years playing U23 and making do with sporadic League Cup games, their careers will suffer. As I've said a fair bit on this thread (to the irritation of many), I massively do not believe in the U23 league as a breeding ground for top level talent.

And whilst your Messi/Balotelli/Mbappe/Vinícius Júnior type talents are all fast-tracked into first teams because they're so ridiculously good at an early age, you surely know as well as I do (if not better) that players can develop later and still reach an elite level.

Andy Robertson is arguably the best left-back in the league now. He wasn't getting fast-tracked anywhere at the age of 17.

Job Flanagan was never and will never be an elite talent, but during the 13/14 season he was thrown in at the deep end, sink or swim. He swam (somehow), nearly won the league and even made an England squad.

What are you even trying to argue?  That youth players don't get chances yet you're bringing up ones that do?

Sancho - club wouldn't guarantee him playing time so he didn't sign a new contract and went to a club that would guarantee him minutes.  What's the issue with that?
Foden - No idea what the club is promising, probably that D. Silva has only a year or two left?  So he signed a new contract which is a risk for both him and the club as he's clearly not better than D. Silva or he'd be playing
Lookman - He's getting minutes in the first team in the league, isn't that what you are saying should happen?
Robertson - He wasn't a PL academy player, what are you even arguing?
Flanagan - Got his chance, was fine but clearly not good enough long term for whatever reason
Hudson-Odoi - Do you think Bayern are going to play him more than Chelsea if he isn't of the required level?  LOL

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98987 on: February 11, 2019, 10:47:16 pm »
Flanagan didn’t get thrown in during 13/14 anyway, he got his debut a few years before
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98988 on: February 11, 2019, 11:38:28 pm »

Sancho is clearly an elite level talent, but City have Sterling, Mahrez and Sane.

That actually sounds like a, well not exactly terrible, but far from an optimal deal for City. They should never have bought Mahrez, kept and used Sancho as the backup for Sterling and Sane and spent the Mahrez money on a proper replacement/deputize for Fernandinho at DM and got him in this season. Luckily for us they didn't. 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 11:42:44 pm by trimore »
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98989 on: February 12, 2019, 12:02:21 am »
Sancho left because he didn't want to be back-up

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98990 on: February 12, 2019, 12:16:47 am »
Sancho left because he didn't want to be back-up

That's great for us and Dortmund. But to me that's a slightly disappointing attitude from a young player if true. He would have got plenty of minutes as City are competing on all four fronts, as Mahrez and Bernardo Silva's playing times have shown. I'd like to think whatever marginal additional minues he gains at Dortmund isn't worth giving up the chance to learn from experienced pros like Aguero, De Bruyne and David Silva day in, day out over a season or more.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 12:35:24 am by trimore »
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98991 on: February 12, 2019, 01:06:02 am »


Andy Robertson is arguably the best left-back in the league now. He wasn't getting fast-tracked anywhere at the age of 17.


He was a 1st team regular at aged 17/18,pretty unusual for a defender.
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Offline U-238A

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98992 on: February 12, 2019, 01:40:35 am »
To the coaches - How often do you see someone be amazing in training, but it simply doesn't translate to real game minutes? Or the opposite? They don't really stand out, but due to injuries, are thrown into the deep end, hold their own and become first choice after a consistent run of good games?

Anyone believe Trent would've got his run-in if Clyne was fit? If yes/no... Why?

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98993 on: February 12, 2019, 09:00:20 am »
That's great for us and Dortmund. But to me that's a slightly disappointing attitude from a young player if true. He would have got plenty of minutes as City are competing on all four fronts, as Mahrez and Bernardo Silva's playing times have shown. I'd like to think whatever marginal additional minues he gains at Dortmund isn't worth giving up the chance to learn from experienced pros like Aguero, De Bruyne and David Silva day in, day out over a season or more.

Marginal additional minutes? He's played nearly 1700 minutes and counting for Dortmund this season. He'd have needed to play like Garrincha to approach 600 or 700 at Man City. To describe a player's attitude as disappointing if they want to play football matches is absolutely ludicrous.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 09:03:02 am by Gerry Attrick »

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98994 on: February 12, 2019, 10:04:50 am »
The cream will rise to the top.

But PoP you're being dismissive if you don't think an individual clubs current situation can't impact that or prohibit it from happening.

Pogba was and is elite, he was ready for first team football at united and all and sundry knew it. But Rafael got games at CM ahead of him along with Park Ji Sung and a retired only to be resurrected old man Scholes.

So he had to leave least he risk wasting his talent watching less talented footballers from the stands.

It happens. It will happen more often than is desirable under a manager like Mourinho and a club like Chelsea for the very specific and very situational specifics of a manager and/or a club placing much more emphasis on immediate results and therefore place much more trust in senior players they know rather than risk a talented but inconsistent teenager.

Pogba, Sancho, any number of Real Academy graduates and so on, its really not that short a list. They all had to leave their clubs to realise their potential. It's a sliding doors moment ultimately, neither of us can sit here and claim to know for sure how things pan out for Pogba if he stays at United. If he languishes or succeeds because ultimately that scenario didn't come to pass.

We do know however that these players, their advisors, they knew something had to give and that they were more ready than the opportunities being provided.

You look at someone like Loftus Cheek and there's a clearly top level talent there, PL and International quality talent. But his lack of first team games is hampering both his career and his improvement. That's the flipside of the coin if you don't remove yourself from such a situation. 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 10:06:47 am by Cpt_Reina »

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98995 on: February 12, 2019, 01:17:23 pm »
Pogba left united due to money, not playing time,  though.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98996 on: February 12, 2019, 01:47:31 pm »
If you say so.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98997 on: February 12, 2019, 02:22:15 pm »
interesting article with Barry Lewis (LFC U18 manager) talking about his squad.  I saw it in the Echo. 

https://www.goal.com/en/news/gerrards-cousin-the-scouse-german-and-meet-liverpools-next/hxe540f7d1lz1tegjs55wktvw

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98998 on: February 12, 2019, 02:40:23 pm »
interesting article with Barry Lewis (LFC U18 manager) talking about his squad.  I saw it in the Echo. 

https://www.goal.com/en/news/gerrards-cousin-the-scouse-german-and-meet-liverpools-next/hxe540f7d1lz1tegjs55wktvw

Thanks for this mate,interesting read  :)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98999 on: February 12, 2019, 03:10:22 pm »
If you say so.

I don't - Raiola (his agent), does:


Quote
Paul Pogba was then a teenage hopeful at Manchester United. He hadn’t broken into the first team and Raiola told him he was underpaid, but added that perhaps he ought to stay anyway, especially as United had a “fantastic manager”, Alex Ferguson. However, in 2012 Raiola asked United for a better contract. He breaks into English to recount the negotiations:

Ferguson to Raiola: I don’t talk to you if the player is not here. Raiola: Get the player out of the locker room and sit him here. Pogba enters. Ferguson to Pogba: You don’t want to sign this contract? Pogba: We’re not going to sign this contract under these conditions. Ferguson to Raiola: You’re a twat.

Raiola was unfazed, partly because he didn’t know the word.

Raiola: This is an offer that my chihuahuas — I have two chihuahuas — don’t sign. Ferguson: What do you think he needs to earn? Raiola: Not that. Ferguson: You’re a twat.

- https://www.ft.com/content/548155cc-9bcf-11e6-b8c6-568a43813464

Ferguson on Pogba -

Quote
"I mean if we hold Pogba back, what's going to happen? He's going to leave. You know, in a couple of years' time when his contract is going to finish. So we have to give him the opportunity to see how he can do in the first-team and he's got great ability."

- Marshall, A; Sharrock, D (12 August 2011). "Boss set to promote Pogba". Manchester United F.C. Retrieved 12 August 2011.

Better looking than Samie.