Author Topic: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)  (Read 20129 times)

Offline Studgotelli

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #120 on: January 28, 2021, 07:15:26 pm »
Went in on Naked Group this morning. Wanted to try something different to GME and wanted to wait but bit at $2.90 :butt currently down £50 from £100, hoping for a GameStop pt2 but likely wishful thinkning at this point. GameStop will go crazy tomorrow hope they stick it to the HFs.

Social media has its critics but if you’re a social media hawk it could’ve made you a killing last few days wish I’d spotted this talk earlier!

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #121 on: January 28, 2021, 07:22:43 pm »
Well,  the next time this retail subculture wants to stick it to the man,  they best start by paying good commissions for their trades at a proper broker.  It tells you a lot that there is shock and outrage about the actions of a discount / 'free'  broker like Robinhood in backing the paymasters,  when discount brokers selling lucrative order flow to market makers has been public,  legally required to declare info for a while now.. Hedge funds are major buyers of that order flow, but not only them.

Nothing of quality is ever free.  If you are actually serious about trading,  execution quality can be a major issue with these brokerages as well.

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #122 on: January 28, 2021, 07:25:56 pm »
Interesting to see how RH respond tomorrow.

Well,  the next time this retail subculture wants to stick it to the man,  they best start by paying good commissions for their trades at a proper broker.  It tells you a lot that there is shock and outrage about the actions of a discount / 'free'  broker like Robinhood in backing the paymasters,  when discount brokers selling lucrative order flow to market makers has been public,  legally required to declare info for a while now.. Hedge funds are major buyers of that order flow, but not only them.

Nothing of quality is ever free.  If you are actually serious about trading,  execution quality can be a major issue with these brokerages as well.

It’s not just RH but a selection of commission charging investors too.

Offline Mr F

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #123 on: January 28, 2021, 07:47:16 pm »
Whatever your thoughts on it all, there's no denying it's brilliantly entertaining to watch unfold.
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Offline Lotus Eater

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #124 on: January 28, 2021, 07:49:59 pm »
2pm - It went up 90% in 5 minutes

2.10pm it drops 45% in 5 minutes
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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #125 on: January 28, 2021, 07:58:03 pm »
Where have I posted whataboutism? I'm literally stating why I don't believe this to be coordinated. There is no central figure or group that are acting in their own interests. It's thousands, nay, tens of thousands of individuals seeing what others are doing and deciding to join the fun. Whether they're doing it for the "memes", to "stick it to the rich" or to make money, you can not say anyone actually coordinated this.
And whose fault is that?

The SEC for allowing naked shorting?

The hedge funds that decided to continually short a company - one that hires thousands of low income employees during a pandemic - until near bankruptcy all while greedily shorting more stock than the company even has, leaving themselves openly vulnerable to this exact situation?

Why are the common people who finally found a way to capitalise on the immense greed of these wallstreet fucks taking the flak here?

Sorry left part off the quotation. Was referring to this regarding whataboutism:
"Comparing that to what these hedge funds have done over the last few days is a fucking joke, and I don't know if you're just ignorant or actually believe this crap."

A company doesn't go bankrupt from a low stock price. Bad CEO's will always whine about short sellers, when the ultimate cause is of the malaise is bad management.  This company which has been laying off people steadily over the past few years. In 2017 it had 23,000 employees, now it has 14,000. That is due to poor management and failure to adapt to new market environment, and has naught to do with short sellers. You are also ignoring the counter point. Many hedge funds, that opt for the market as a benchmark, go by the 130/30 theme, that is 30% short and 130% long, i.e. the short position in a "bad" company are funding a long position in a "good" company.

Financial markets have always been about the efficient allocation of capital, and shorting plays a major part in that. Of course things can get out of hand in panic situations, but usually in those instances regulators will step in a restrict further short selling. Is it a infallible tool of price discovery? No. Is it the root of all evil in our society? Also no.

Funnily enough the clown of a CEO's shares soared in value by more than $780m, talk about being rewarded for failure.

Additionally the largest institutional holders of GME as of last filings were Fidelity, Blackrock, Vanguard and SIG. Sure sticking it to the man...
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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #126 on: January 28, 2021, 08:00:31 pm »
Never chase green candles in any form of trading, you will likely get burned.
If he retires I'll eat my fucking cock.

Great anti climax for those expecting jizzihno....

Offline josh101

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #127 on: January 28, 2021, 08:25:17 pm »
Sorry left part off the quotation. Was referring to this regarding whataboutism:
"Comparing that to what these hedge funds have done over the last few days is a fucking joke, and I don't know if you're just ignorant or actually believe this crap."

A company doesn't go bankrupt from a low stock price. Bad CEO's will always whine about short sellers, when the ultimate cause is of the malaise is bad management.  This company which has been laying off people steadily over the past few years. In 2017 it had 23,000 employees, now it has 14,000. That is due to poor management and failure to adapt to new market environment, and has naught to do with short sellers. You are also ignoring the counter point. Many hedge funds, that opt for the market as a benchmark, go by the 130/30 theme, that is 30% short and 130% long, i.e. the short position in a "bad" company are funding a long position in a "good" company.

Financial markets have always been about the efficient allocation of capital, and shorting plays a major part in that. Of course things can get out of hand in panic situations, but usually in those instances regulators will step in a restrict further short selling. Is it a infallible tool of price discovery? No. Is it the root of all evil in our society? Also no.

Funnily enough the clown of a CEO's shares soared in value by more than $780m, talk about being rewarded for failure.

Additionally the largest institutional holders of GME as of last filings were Fidelity, Blackrock, Vanguard and SIG. Sure sticking it to the man...
I don't doubt the mismanagement of GameStop, it's been awful the past few years. However as I posted earlier, this interest in their stock didn't originate with because of the shorts. Ryan Cohen and a couple of his partners joined their board of directors after he acquired a 12% stake in the company. He had previously ran Chewy, a massive online pet supply store that he eventually sold for 3.5billion and rivaled Amazon for pet supplies. He has plans to transition GameStop into a eCommerce game retailer. Regardless of this, they continued with their massive shorting of the stock and even began a media campaign through Citron against GameStop.

Of course there are going to be insitutional winners. Retail wouldn't be enough to meet the volume needed for a short squeeze. Don't see what the problem there is. I don't have anything against the rich, just these greedy short selling market manipulating chumps.

---

So looks like Citadel doubled down on their short positions today before instructing Robinhood to halt trading and manipulating GME stock... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Es0w0FvXIAMoar6?format=jpg&name=900x900

Disgusting. Can they really get away with this blatant market manipulation? Even Senators such as AOC & Ted Cruz are asking for investigations into it now.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 08:26:54 pm by josh101 »

Offline OOS

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #128 on: January 28, 2021, 09:00:44 pm »
Interesting to see how RH respond tomorrow.

It’s not just RH but a selection of commission charging investors too.

56% of RobinHood users had some sort of holding of Gamestop. There is a two day settlement period for trades. I wonder what the running balance sheet was to settle these trades, in such a volatile market. It sounds like these 'free' brokers couldn't handle the volume of trades, cos the cost of fulfilling these trades were getting to risky.

Its been fun to watch, I will never understand day trading or ever want to get involved. If you want to invest, stick to passive funds (obvs ain't financial advice  ;D)

« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 09:24:58 pm by OOS »
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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #129 on: January 28, 2021, 09:10:26 pm »
I don't doubt the mismanagement of GameStop, it's been awful the past few years. However as I posted earlier, this interest in their stock didn't originate with because of the shorts. Ryan Cohen and a couple of his partners joined their board of directors after he acquired a 12% stake in the company. He had previously ran Chewy, a massive online pet supply store that he eventually sold for 3.5billion and rivaled Amazon for pet supplies. He has plans to transition GameStop into a eCommerce game retailer. Regardless of this, they continued with their massive shorting of the stock and even began a media campaign through Citron against GameStop.

Of course there are going to be insitutional winners. Retail wouldn't be enough to meet the volume needed for a short squeeze. Don't see what the problem there is. I don't have anything against the rich, just these greedy short selling market manipulating chumps.

---

So looks like Citadel doubled down on their short positions today before instructing Robinhood to halt trading and manipulating GME stock... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Es0w0FvXIAMoar6?format=jpg&name=900x900

Disgusting. Can they really get away with this blatant market manipulation? Even Senators such as AOC & Ted Cruz are asking for investigations into it now.
I don't doubt the mismanagement of GameStop, it's been awful the past few years. However as I posted earlier, this interest in their stock didn't originate with because of the shorts. Ryan Cohen and a couple of his partners joined their board of directors after he acquired a 12% stake in the company. He had previously ran Chewy, a massive online pet supply store that he eventually sold for 3.5billion and rivaled Amazon for pet supplies. He has plans to transition GameStop into a eCommerce game retailer. Regardless of this, they continued with their massive shorting of the stock and even began a media campaign through Citron against GameStop.

Of course there are going to be insitutional winners. Retail wouldn't be enough to meet the volume needed for a short squeeze. Don't see what the problem there is. I don't have anything against the rich, just these greedy short selling market manipulating chumps.

---

So looks like Citadel doubled down on their short positions today before instructing Robinhood to halt trading and manipulating GME stock... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Es0w0FvXIAMoar6?format=jpg&name=900x900

Disgusting. Can they really get away with this blatant market manipulation? Even Senators such as AOC & Ted Cruz are asking for investigations into it now.


Do you have any credible sources on the claim that Citadel instructed Robinhood to halt trading, which if true is criminal. Though halting trading in highly volatility stocks isn't unheard of. It was halted multiple times, both on the way up and the way down.

No issues with them shorting it. If I could I would too.

My biggest concern with this whole saga is that retail investors late to the party will bear the brunt of the fall. You have people on reddit saying they are using their rent money to buy GME, or using the credit cards. Similar to the crypto bubble in 17/18.

And a coordinated short-squeeze is a form of market manipulation.
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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #130 on: January 28, 2021, 09:45:25 pm »
Robin Hood saying they’re reinstating the meme stocks tomorrow.... GME up 50% after hours.

Offline josh101

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #131 on: January 28, 2021, 10:14:33 pm »

Do you have any credible sources on the claim that Citadel instructed Robinhood to halt trading, which if true is criminal. Though halting trading in highly volatility stocks isn't unheard of. It was halted multiple times, both on the way up and the way down.

No issues with them shorting it. If I could I would too.

My biggest concern with this whole saga is that retail investors late to the party will bear the brunt of the fall. You have people on reddit saying they are using their rent money to buy GME, or using the credit cards. Similar to the crypto bubble in 17/18.

And a coordinated short-squeeze is a form of market manipulation.
I don't mean halting the trading as in not allowing any buying/selling of stock for a little to level out the market, that happens often enough as you said. RH and other brokerages have blocked any purchase of GME stock for retail customers all day today - whether it be by margin or cash. They even sold off any shares of GME that were bought on Margin by their customers - at the lowest price point of course. All the while selling was fine and never disallowed lol.

To be honest, I don't have a source. There has been a post floating about of a Robinhood employee admitting they got a call from them and the white house to pressurise them to halt trades, but that's an anonymous source so could just as much be bogus. The prevailing "evidence" on that is the fact that only the brokers who disallowed GME today are all partnered with Citadel and Citadel even has a commanding invest in RH and TD that both halted buying.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 10:21:22 pm by josh101 »

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #132 on: January 28, 2021, 10:31:28 pm »
 
Robin Hood saying they’re reinstating the meme stocks tomorrow.... GME up 50% after hours.
Yep pre-market is 260 already. We took their best shot.

edit: 300 at 11pm GMT. Yep.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 11:05:50 pm by OsirisMVZ »

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #134 on: January 28, 2021, 10:52:40 pm »
Citadel's manipulation of the market has already attracted the attention of lawmakers, so the double whammy of that plus the gamma squeeze is really gonna fucking hurt tomorrow. Maybe they didn't think a bunch of reprobates on the internet would find out that they have a pretty major influence on Robinhood, as well as a ludicrous level of shorts against Gamestop. Oh dear.....

Got in at just under $70 a couple of days ago, am holding on to this until it becomes silly, just to make the point to the hedging fuckers. This is not going to be the last time they are going to be targeted.

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #136 on: January 28, 2021, 10:55:20 pm »
remember when US senators got coronavirus briefings before the public and sold off millions of dollars in stocks before the crash last year and faced no consequences and no regulation? then reddit made one stock into a meme and they’re talking about restructuring the whole market

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #137 on: January 28, 2021, 11:47:35 pm »
Tomorrow could be an absolute bloodbath, could go down in history in all honesty. Gamestop up over 100% in after hours trading, AMC up over 50% in after hours trading.

Tomorrow is going to be a tonne of fun to watch

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #138 on: January 28, 2021, 11:48:37 pm »
Could nerds kill short selling?


It would be quite a thing
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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #139 on: January 28, 2021, 11:50:07 pm »
Citadel could be in massive massive trouble and there is apparently direct involvement with Janet Yellen. If this goes all the way to the top of Biden's administration the fallout could be mental.

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #140 on: January 28, 2021, 11:50:53 pm »
What's funny is Trump would have allowed all of this because he loved the chaos :D

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #141 on: January 28, 2021, 11:51:26 pm »
What's funny is Trump would have allowed all of this because he loved the chaos :D

you know what, I said the same thing today. Trump would have loved to see this happen.

Offline Lotus Eater

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #142 on: January 28, 2021, 11:55:44 pm »
GameStop up 77% after hours
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Offline Lotus Eater

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #143 on: January 28, 2021, 11:57:10 pm »
Citadel could be in massive massive trouble and there is apparently direct involvement with Janet Yellen. If this goes all the way to the top of Biden's administration the fallout could be mental.
Where is your source?
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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #144 on: January 28, 2021, 11:57:15 pm »
Up 75% AH. Jesus fuck..... makes you think if it survived today where the all the biggest brokers literally stopped trading, where will it go?

Offline Studgotelli

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #145 on: January 29, 2021, 12:04:41 am »
Dogecoin on the crypto is going crazy can’t get verified for a Binance account! :butt :butt :butt

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #146 on: January 29, 2021, 12:59:44 am »
My “personalized “ email from Robinhood:

It’s been a tough day, and we’re grateful to you for being a Robinhood customer. In light of the extraordinary market conditions this week, we temporarily limited buying for certain securities this morning. Starting tomorrow, we plan to allow limited buys of these securities. We’ll continue to monitor the situation and may make adjustments as needed.
This was a temporary decision made to best continue serving you, and was not an easy one to make. We know it’s led to frustration and confusion, and wanted to provide some clarity.
As a brokerage firm, we have many financial requirements, including SEC net capital obligations and clearinghouse deposits. Some of these requirements fluctuate based on volatility in the markets and can be substantial in the current environment. These requirements exist to protect investors and the markets and we take our responsibilities to comply with them seriously, including through the measures we have taken today.
To be clear, this decision was not made on the direction of any market maker we route to or other market participants.
The past year in particular has shown us that the financial markets are for everyone—not just institutional investors and hedge funds. We’ve seen a new generation enter the market, and they’re sparking conversations about what it means to be an investor. We stand in support of you, our customers. Democratizing finance for all means giving more people access, not less.
We’ll keep monitoring market conditions and will update this Help Center article with the latest changes. We also published a blog post regarding today’s events.
Thank you again for being a Robinhood customer. We’re so grateful for your support.
Sincerely,
The Robinhood Team
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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #147 on: January 29, 2021, 01:21:04 am »
Whatever the ethics or eventual outcome of the Gamestop/meme stock saga, it's immensely gratifying to see short sellers get screwed, particularly those dumb enough to apparently buy more shares in a company that actually exist, and corrupt enough to try and drive the stock down by publicly badmouthing the company through the media. When you see articles as ridiculous as Trumpism is Behind the Gamestop Surge, how can you not be on the side of the retail investors?

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #148 on: January 29, 2021, 01:23:31 am »
My “personalized “ email from Robinhood:

It’s been a tough day, and we’re grateful to you for being a Robinhood customer. In light of the extraordinary market conditions this week, we temporarily limited buying for certain securities this morning. Starting tomorrow, we plan to allow limited buys of these securities. We’ll continue to monitor the situation and may make adjustments as needed.
This was a temporary decision made to best continue serving you, and was not an easy one to make. We know it’s led to frustration and confusion, and wanted to provide some clarity.
As a brokerage firm, we have many financial requirements, including SEC net capital obligations and clearinghouse deposits. Some of these requirements fluctuate based on volatility in the markets and can be substantial in the current environment. These requirements exist to protect investors and the markets and we take our responsibilities to comply with them seriously, including through the measures we have taken today.
To be clear, this decision was not made on the direction of any market maker we route to or other market participants.
The past year in particular has shown us that the financial markets are for everyone—not just institutional investors and hedge funds. We’ve seen a new generation enter the market, and they’re sparking conversations about what it means to be an investor. We stand in support of you, our customers. Democratizing finance for all means giving more people access, not less.
We’ll keep monitoring market conditions and will update this Help Center article with the latest changes. We also published a blog post regarding today’s events.
Thank you again for being a Robinhood customer. We’re so grateful for your support.
Sincerely,
The Robinhood Team

What a load of utter bullshit.

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #149 on: January 29, 2021, 02:25:10 am »
Fuck Robinhood. Fuck all the brokers who pulled the rug yesterday.

I was watching all this as an entertained bystander but I'm buying one GameStop and some AMC shares today just to participate and stick it to the hedge fund bastards.

This is not investment advice. I just love stonks.
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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #150 on: January 29, 2021, 02:38:22 am »
Interesting to see buying and holding stock described as "market manipulation".

« Last Edit: January 29, 2021, 02:45:00 am by leroy »

Offline Chakan

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #151 on: January 29, 2021, 03:10:03 am »
Interesting to see buying and holding stock described as "market manipulation".

It’s only market manipulation when the rich don’t do it

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #152 on: January 29, 2021, 08:08:30 am »
Had to buy a little bit yesterday; entertaining this - almost like Hicks & Gillett; you shouldn't mess with the internet warriors
It’s not even about individuality, it’s about the team. Our game was based on his controlling of the tempo. Squeeze the life out of the opposition and then strike. That is our game. Like a pack of pythons.

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #153 on: January 29, 2021, 08:41:35 am »
It’s only market manipulation when the rich don’t do it

Exactly.

The rich don't like it when the average Joe does it.

Offline Sheer Magnetism

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #154 on: January 29, 2021, 09:11:30 am »
Interesting additional info:
Quote

Popular online brokerages today restricted trading in soaring stocks, including GameStop and AMC, leaving traders with just two options: hold or sell. The move, notes the WSJ, fueled a firestorm of criticism among users and even some members of Congress.
 
One of the brokerages, Robinhood, said its own decision to halt trading tied to its capital obligations and clearinghouse deposits, which fluctuate based on volatility in the markets (a revelation likely to spook some of its customers). According to the New York Times, the platform was even forced tonight to turn to its venture investors, including Sequoia Capital and Ribbit Capital, for emergency funding to prevent from having to place further limits on customers' trades. Unsurprisingly, there are strings attached, adds the report. The investors will receive additional equity in Robinhood at a "discounted valuation tied to the price of Robinhood shares when the company goes public."
 
In the meantime, Redditors moved on to an obscure oil company called New Concept Energy that "employs five people and appears to produce negligible amounts of oil and natural gas from some wells in Appalachia," notes Bloomberg. Its shares soared 1,000% today, turning the company, which saw revenue of $590,000 in 2019, into one whose market cap hit $128 million.
 
One clear winner from all this zaniness: the Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan. After shares in mall owner Macerich Co. jumped 68% across four trading sessions after losing 84% over the last three years, the pension group, which owned 16.4% of the company, dumped its entire stake for $500 million. Bloomberg has the story here.

Offline Babel Time

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #155 on: January 29, 2021, 09:35:55 am »
It’s only market manipulation when the rich don’t do it



Here is the definition of market manipulation:
"Market manipulation is the act of artificially inflating or deflating the price of a security or otherwise influencing the behavior of the market for personal gain."

This is 100% the case here. Who is doing it is irrelevant.

No different than when the Hunt brothers tried to corner the silver market. And they got charged and fined $134M.

Equally it is market manipulation if it does prove to be true that Citadel intervened to instruct RH to halt trades / disable by orders. In fact that would be orders of magnitude worse. There will severe legal repercussions if that is the case, which is why I am sceptical that Citadel would do this on the most highly watched stock in history. Committing a crime whilst everyone is watching, please, they are not that stupid.

...
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Offline leroy

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #156 on: January 29, 2021, 09:42:38 am »
Buying and holding is not "artificially inflating or deflating the price of a security".

« Last Edit: January 29, 2021, 09:44:21 am by leroy »

Offline rodderzzz

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #157 on: January 29, 2021, 09:57:34 am »
AMC flying in the pre markets let’s goooooo babaaayyyyy

Offline Babel Time

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #158 on: January 29, 2021, 10:00:24 am »
Buying and holding is not "artificially inflating or deflating the price of a security".



Its not that though is it. It is coordinated mass buying to push up the price of the security up and trigger margin calls for the short sellers and induce a short squeeze. That is the ultimate premise of the strategy.

Buy and hold is buying and holding the security for a long time with little regard for market fluctuations. This is about as far from buy and hold as it gets. How many GME investors will still be holding it in a month?
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Offline Johnny Foreigner

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Re: Modern Day David V Goliath (Redditors v Hedgefunders)
« Reply #159 on: January 29, 2021, 10:04:31 am »


Here is the definition of market manipulation:
"Market manipulation is the act of artificially inflating or deflating the price of a security or otherwise influencing the behavior of the market for personal gain."



Commonly known as "shorting" I assume ?

Planted articles, algoritm and robots...

It’s not even about individuality, it’s about the team. Our game was based on his controlling of the tempo. Squeeze the life out of the opposition and then strike. That is our game. Like a pack of pythons.