Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[Wild Romany Boy]

I've seen some posts highlighting other offensive tweets by England cricketers. One of which amounted to liking "looking at boobs" (WTF?). These complaints appearing on a forum that regularly spits hate at Jews and Hindus. The saying about sins and stones isn't remembered enough.

Which sort of forums are these on Sangria? I could venture a guess

[Sangria]

Which sort of forums are these on Sangria? I could venture a guess

You probably could.

[Wild Romany Boy]

You probably could.

Given your history of posts there is only one guess. And, all of a sudden, everything becomes a whole lot clearer, and a lot less enjoyable.

Like when Gillian Anderson susses out Jamie Dornan in The Fall.

[Sangria]

Given your history of posts there is only one guess. And, all of a sudden, everything becomes a whole lot clearer, and a lot less enjoyable.

Like when Gillian Anderson susses out Jamie Dornan in The Fall.

WTF are you talking about?

[Wild Romany Boy]

WTF are you talking about?

Go watch The Fall, though skip the third series my good fellow.

[So Howard Philips]

Given your history of posts there is only one guess. And, all of a sudden, everything becomes a whole lot clearer, and a lot less enjoyable.

Like when Gillian Anderson susses out Jamie Dornan in The Fall.

So Sangria is a serial killer? 

[Wild Romany Boy]

So Sangria is a serial killer? 

Nah, that might be going a bit far.

Wouldn't mind looking like Jamie Dornan though.

[Jiminy Cricket]

WTF are you talking about?

Yep. Spit it out Wild Romany Boy.

[Wild Romany Boy]

Yep. Spit it out Wild Romany Boy.

I think Sangria needs to spit it out. I wondered why he brought cricket in to a discussion about the left, when it's as relevant as Everton to a title challenge. Ask him about the sort of forums he is talking about and then wonder why in the hell he brought that up too. 

[Welshred]

Any chance of both of you stop having cryptic arguments that spams the thread and just tell each other the type of forums you think he's on like adults?

[TepidT2O]

Any chance of both of you stop having cryptic arguments that spams the thread and just tell each other the type of forums you think he's on like adults?

Typical.

Just like Christopher Biggins in I Claudius

[Sangria]

I think Sangria needs to spit it out. I wondered why he brought cricket in to a discussion about the left, when it's as relevant as Everton to a title challenge. Ask him about the sort of forums he is talking about and then wonder why in the hell he brought that up too. 

You mean that, in a discussion of culture wars, the current efforts to demonise cricketers for what they said as teenagers is not relevant? Maybe you should talk to the Tory cabinet about it, one of whom has already commented on the issue.

BTW, I was referring to a Pakistani cricket forum, where posters have pulled up past tweets by English cricketers and cried foul. I've explained what I was referring to. Can you explain what you were referring to?

[Yorkykopite]

Any chance of both of you stop having cryptic arguments that spams the thread and just tell each other the type of forums you think he's on like adults?

Innuendo. A corrosive element on social media. I wish posters would simply quote what they find objectionable and say why they find it so, instead of dropping dark hints and playing the shrinking violet. 

[Sangria]

Innuendo. A corrosive element on social media. I wish posters would simply quote what they find objectionable and say why they find it so, instead of dropping dark hints and playing the shrinking violet. 

I've explained my bit.

[Wild Romany Boy]

You mean that, in a discussion of culture wars, the current efforts to demonise cricketers for what they said as teenagers is not relevant? Maybe you should talk to the Tory cabinet about it, one of whom has already commented on the issue.

BTW, I was referring to a Pakistani cricket forum, where posters have pulled up past tweets by English cricketers and cried foul. I've explained what I was referring to. Can you explain what you were referring to?

My apologies. I got that one wrong.

I still thing you somehow blaming the left for the cricket thing is absolutely ridiculous but I can see that your actions were not motivated by any sort of prejudice. And I am sorry for that and to you personally.

The Tory cabinet could comment on my local shop running out of chewits this afternoon, it would be nothing to do with anything created by the left. You are talking about an action taken by the ECB, and I doubt they are raging lefties in the famously middle class sport of cricket.

[Sangria]

My apologies. I got that one wrong.

I still thing you somehow blaming the left for the cricket thing is absolutely ridiculous but I can see that your actions were not motivated by any sort of prejudice. And I am sorry for that and to you personally.

The Tory cabinet could comment on my local shop running out of chewits this afternoon, it would be nothing to do with anything created by the left. You are talking about an action taken by the ECB, and I doubt they are raging lefties in the famously middle class sport of cricket.

And it's a culture war issue in which a Tory minister has taken the action of pointing and effectively saying, see this is why you should vote Tory, it's the only sane choice.

What were you referring to originally then? I've explained my bit.

[Wild Romany Boy]

And it's a culture war issue in which a Tory minister has taken the action of pointing and effectively saying, see this is why you should vote Tory, it's the only sane choice.

What were you referring to originally then? I've explained my bit.

Which again has nothing to do with the left! What do you want the left to do about the cricket?

I thought you had a problem with Muslims to be honest Sangria. You have spoken of the horrors you have seen of Muslim posts on specific forums on such threads as the Israel one and I put 2 and 2 and made 19. That was all my fault and I apologise.

[Elmo!]

And it's a culture war issue in which a Tory minister has taken the action of pointing and effectively saying, see this is why you should vote Tory, it's the only sane choice.

What were you referring to originally then? I've explained my bit.

I can't help but feel you are doing exactly the thing the Tories want though Sangria. They are fanning the flames of the culture war, and yet you consistently blame the left without fail for it. It's divide and conquer, and it appears to be working.

[B0151?]

I'm not sure about the whole "was just 19"

If a 27 year old to do with Labour made anti Semitic posts when they were 19 I would certainly want them investigated and those posts taken very seriously.

No the cricketers aren't politicians but they are representing their country.  It's an important and prestigious position.

The whole going through social media posts is obviously a modern and often unpleasant phenomenon but  I don't know. I'm 27 and 19 is pushing the "I was just a silly kid" thing a bit there.

[Sangria]

Which again has nothing to do with the left! What do you want the left to do about the cricket?

I thought you had a problem with Muslims to be honest Sangria. You have spoken of the horrors you have seen of Muslim posts on specific forums on such threads as the Israel one and I put 2 and 2 and made 19. That was all my fault and I apologise.

It's a culture war issue. Starting with accusations of racism, then homophobia, and then sexism. The last two of which, from what I've seen, really, really stretch interpretation. And a Tory minister has already played for political capital on this.

My original post, which you and others took exception to, is that the left should avoid debates of this sort. And the current discussion about these cricketers illustrates this perfectly IMHO, hence my pointing to it as an illustration.

I'm still waiting for the kind of forum you thought I was getting this info from.

[Wild Romany Boy]

It's a culture war issue. Starting with accusations of racism, then homophobia, and then sexism. The last two of which, from what I've seen, really, really stretch interpretation. And a Tory minister has already played for political capital on this.

My original post, which you and others took exception to, is that the left should avoid debates of this sort. And the current discussion about these cricketers illustrates this perfectly IMHO, hence my pointing to it as an illustration.

I'm still waiting for the kind of forum you thought I was getting this info from.

That's only true if you think the culture war is only from the left. As someone else said, I have the feeling you are falling for this hook, line and sinker, even as you articulately lay out the very trap itself. The left didn't start that debate and aren't even in it.

Read between the lines Sangria. Actually don't, I all but outright said it. I assumed you were visiting Muslim forums, for whatever reason, and getting a little incensed at what you saw. Hey, you may come across things said by Muslims on forums that you abhor, but I was wrong to suggest you had any prejudice. A cricket forum makes sense to me.

[Sangria]

That's only true if you think the culture war is only from the left. As someone else said, I have the feeling you are falling for this hook, line and sinker, even as you articulately lay out the very trap itself. The left didn't start that debate and aren't even in it.

Read between the lines Sangria. Actually don't, I all but outright said it. I assumed you were visiting Muslim forums, for whatever reason, and getting a little incensed at what you saw. Hey, you may come across things said by Muslims on forums that you abhor, but I was wrong to suggest you had any prejudice. A cricket forum makes sense to me.

I've never said that the culture war exists only on the left. I've always stated that they've been pursued by both left and right. But with differing effects. When fought on the left, the ultraliberals (those who fight to be right) fight culture wars in order to gain ascendancy on the left. See the example of that Guardian journo who was forced out by a group led (AFAICS) by Owen Jones. Feminists versus trans. But it's used by the right to gain ascendancy nationally, not just on their wing. And that, whenever it happens, whoever starts it, the right point to it and win votes.

Hence my conclusion: the left should not engage in it at all.

Can you explain how this is accusing only the left of doing it?

[Wild Romany Boy]

I've never said that the culture war exists only on the left. I've always stated that they've been pursued by both left and right. But with differing effects. When fought on the left, the ultraliberals (those who fight to be right) fight culture wars in order to gain ascendancy on the left. See the example of that Guardian journo who was forced out by a group led (AFAICS) by Owen Jones. Feminists versus trans. But it's used by the right to gain ascendancy nationally, not just on their wing. And that, whenever it happens, whoever starts it, the right point to it and win votes.

Hence my conclusion: the left should not engage in it at all.

Can you explain how this is accusing only the left of doing it?

Are you talking about Julie Birchill? Bloody hell, look up what she did.

If you don't think the left should fight back against that...wow. And Owen Jones didn't even chase her out anyway. She's even been dropped by another paper recently for her remarks about the royal baby. You might like or dislike Owen Jones, but he does show a vision for the wider economic arguments whilst talking about these cultural issues. Why? Because he can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Either way, the cricket was nothing to do with the left. You used it as an example of something they shouldn't do when they are not doing it!

I tell you what, I had a tricky essay to do today, if I took your attitude I'll start blaming Owen Jones.

[Yorkykopite]

Not Julie Burchill. Even I know that. He means Suzanne Moore. She was treated very shabbily.

[Sangria]

Are you talking about Julie Birchill? Bloody hell, look up what she did.

If you don't think the left should fight back against that...wow. And Owen Jones didn't even chase her out anyway. She's even been dropped by another paper recently for her remarks about the royal baby. You might like or dislike Owen Jones, but he does show a vision for the wider economic arguments whilst talking about these cultural issues. Why? Because he can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Either way, the cricket was nothing to do with the left. You used it as an example of something they shouldn't do when they are not doing it!

I tell you what, I had a tricky essay to do today, if I took your attitude I'll start blaming Owen Jones.

Can't remember her name, but it's definitely not Julie Birchill. It happened in the past couple of years.

I pointed to the cricket example as an illustration of culture war issues that the right are profiting from. How many times do I need to restate this?

[Wild Romany Boy]

Can't remember her name, but it's definitely not Julie Birchill. It happened in the past couple of years.

I pointed to the cricket example as an illustration of culture war issues that the right are profiting from. How many times do I need to restate this?

If you're talking about Suzanne Moore she left voluntarily when she couldn't write about gender critical issues. Not sure Owen Jones had much to do with that. She's done well since crying about being cancelled.

Fair enough. But there will always be that. If anything the cricket issues shows that the left shouldn't stay out of it because they had nothing to do with this and the tories still tried to make hay with it.

[Elmo!]

I don't know exactly what happened to Moore but I do remember her complaining about being censored and silenced afterwards in a column in, I think, the Daily Mail. I obviously don't condone any abuse she received.

The Guardian regularly churns out anti-trans rights articles without giving any voices to actual trans people. This could be out of date or not quite right but I remember reading the only trans person they have had write for them is Nicky Bandini, who writes about football.

[Sangria]

I don't know exactly what happened to Moore but I do remember her complaining about being censored and silenced afterwards in a column in, I think, the Daily Mail. I obviously don't condone any abuse she received.

The Guardian regularly churns out anti-trans rights articles without giving any voices to actual trans people. This could be out of date or not quite right but I remember reading the only trans person they have had write for them is Nicky Bandini, who writes about football.

Didn't even know that Nicky Bandini is trans. And that factoid is definitely incorrect, as Jan Morris wrote on a variety of subjects. Maybe others as well that I don't know about, similarly to how I knew of Jan Morris as a travel writer long before I knew she was trans.

[Elmo!]

Didn't even know that Nicky Bandini is trans. And that factoid is definitely incorrect, as Jan Morris wrote on a variety of subjects. Maybe others as well that I don't know about, similarly to how I knew of Jan Morris as a travel writer long before I knew she was trans.

Aye fair enough, I wasn't 100% sure on it so happy to be corrected.

Nicky was formerly known as Paolo.

[Yorkykopite]

I don't know exactly what happened to Moore but I do remember her complaining about being censored and silenced afterwards in a column in, I think, the Daily Mail. I obviously don't condone any abuse she received.

Here's what happened to her.

https://unherd.com/2020/11/why-i-had-to-leave-the-guardian/

I'd say she was treated very badly. Owen Jones was one of the signatories referred to in her article. Par for the course for him I think.

[Commie Bobbie]

Here's what happened to her.

https://unherd.com/2020/11/why-i-had-to-leave-the-guardian/

I'd say she was treated very badly. Owen Jones was one of the signatories referred to in her article. Par for the course for him I think.

Not really.  She's a bigot, same as that bastard Burchill.

The radicals of the 80s continue to wind up to become the bigots or the crackpots of the 2020s.

Standard.

[Yorkykopite]

Not really.  She's a bigot, same as that bastard Burchill.

The radicals of the 80s continue to wind up to become the bigots or the crackpots of the 2020s.

Standard.

I don't agree.

More than that your reaction - which is clearly becoming more common in small sections of society - seems way over the top. And the letter that Owen Jones and the others wrote demanding that their boss censure a work colleague strikes me as a little bit fascist as well as cowardly and inquisitorial.

[Zeb]

To Captain Piltchard and Captain Wren, the Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade was a glorious pain in the ass, since it complicated their task of organizing the crews for each combat mission.

[Snail]

And the letter that Owen Jones and the others wrote demanding that their boss censure a work colleague strikes me as a little bit fascist as well as cowardly and inquisitorial.

That’ll be the Owen Jones that was literally beaten up by literal fascists a couple of years ago? That Owen Jones?

[Indomitable_Carp]

I never liked Suzanne Moore, but that was more because of her sneering and snide-style of writing designed to wind certain people up without contributing much, which I just donīt think really belonged in a respectable newspaper (and which is why it doesnīt surprise that she had an article go down well in the Daily Mail) - rather then anything trans related. That said I donīt agree with anyone being hounded out for putting forward alternative views, even if controversial to some (within limits of course). 

As for "the Left" staying out of the "culture wars", I agree. But there is a small and committed fringe on the Left that is fully wedded to the culture wars. For as long as people have a voice on social media, that fringe isnīt going anywhere. And it only takes a handful of people making a handful of tweets for Tories to start pouncing on it and blowing it up - which they will do without restraint. That is just the nature of the beast.

On the other hand, giving the cricket example, you could blame the wider culture of hounding people on social media for the Cricket Authorities decision, but that culture is a two-way street and not just the "the Left". I would never have even heard about it if it handed been mentioned here, and I doubt the vast majority of the "Left" would have heard about it or really cared either. All it takes is one person to dig through someones old social media posts, to put it up and get a handful of people questioning it, before the ECB feels it has to act to stop it potentially snowballing, and then Tory MPs will jump in on it.

How does "the Left" stay out of that? Quite simply it canīt - because there is a rabid right wing media with a ready audience ready to pounce on social media posts and blow up issues beyond all proportion. "The Left" can try to temper some of the worst excesses, and of course avoid MPs and the like engaging, but if the Tories want culture wars, then culture wars they shall have.

Actually funnily enough the one time I had someone dig through my social media posts from when I was 18 and start trying to publicly shame me, it was because I had once made a post saying something nice about the Lib Dems in 2010, after someone took issue with me supporting Starmer in the 2020 leadership election. Honestly never thought it would happen to me - although the way it happened was laughable. But lord knows Iīve probably said things when I was 14-15 that are less laughable and would probably get me slaughtered today if I had been stupid enough to stick it on social media. But hey-ho - people grow up!

[Dr. Beaker]

To Captain Piltchard and Captain Wren, the Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade was a glorious pain in the ass, since it complicated their task of organizing the crews for each combat mission.

The book that keeps on giving - and forever will.

[reddebs]

Why do things have to be described as a war rather than differences of opinion?

Who decided there was a war that needed winning?

Why are we buying into the rhetoric and compounding the differences, rather than working together to overcome them?

[Riquende]

Why do things have to be described as a war rather than differences of opinion?

Who decided there was a war that needed winning?

Why are we buying into the rhetoric and compounding the differences, rather than working together to overcome them?

Easier to keep a population cowed if you can point them to a threat to both fear and unite against.

"We have always been at war with Eastasia."

[Yorkykopite]

That’ll be the Owen Jones that was literally beaten up by literal fascists a couple of years ago? That Owen Jones?

Correct.

[Elmo!]

Here's what happened to her.

https://unherd.com/2020/11/why-i-had-to-leave-the-guardian/

I'd say she was treated very badly. Owen Jones was one of the signatories referred to in her article. Par for the course for him I think.

Ah yeah I remember reading that at the time now. I think it is only fair to say that that is her side of the story, and that Owen Jones has denied that he leaked the letter, and that he wrote it (though his name was added to it).

Without going back and reading her piece that triggered it, I don't really have a problem with the letter in principle to be honest, if someone was writing (fpr example) racist pieces for the paper I worked for I would want that to stop and I wouldn't consider that trying to censure a work colleague.