Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[Jiminy Cricket]

I think it's absolutely ''right'', when the events I want to influence could directly impact my ability to live and work in my current country of residence.

True. But this does not really apply to Banquo's situation.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Technically it won't be a Winter Election as Winter doesn't start until 21st December.

Maybe it's time online voting was made available so "turnout" becomes less of an issue.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Not really. There are two generally accepted versions of the seasons:

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/learn-about/weather/seasons/summer/when-does-summer-start

American's almost exclusively use the astronomical calendar (I always found it bit weird when I lived there). Brits almost always utilise the meteorological calendar. Certainly, I've never thought of (all of) December as anything but winter.

[Henry Gale]

Not really. There are two generally accepted versions of the seasons:

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/learn-about/weather/seasons/summer/when-does-summer-start

American's almost exclusively use the astronomical calendar (I always found it bit weird when I lived there). Brits almost always utilise the meteorological calendar. Certainly, I've never thought of (all of) December as anything but winter.

Are we going to have voting booths in America? 

[Jiminy Cricket]

Are we going to have voting booths in America? 

I just mention the US because until I lived there, I never witnessed anyone base the start and ends of the seasons based upon the dates of solstices and equinoxes. (Excluding my US wife) Nor since, until reddebs mentioned it. It just seems a weird way to define the seasons.

[Jiminy Cricket]

You do realise that has just listed the number of times Corbyn has failed right? Not succeeded or won but failed. Hes a failure and a danger, under him a vote for Labour is a vote for Brexit

Funny. I did not even bother reading that list when Trada posted it. Because - you know - Trada.

[oldfordie]

 

Monster Crash with Jacob Rees-Mogg and Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1189853837273817089

[cloggypop]

Important not to infer likely voting in 2019 too directly from the 2017 result.

The Lib Dems are polling 2-3 times higher now than they were then. Many seats will return to form as Tory-Lib Dem battles. Look at that constituency poll in north east Somerset as an example.

You might want to check the small print on that

[BoRed]

You might want to check the small print on that

[gazzalfc]

Mad how it's the 31st October 2019, we're not leaving the EU and there aren't riots on the streets, angry backlashes and a need for increased police presence on the streets??

[rafathegaffa83]

Mad how it's the 31st October 2019, we're not leaving the EU and there aren't riots on the streets, angry backlashes and a need for increased police presence on the streets??

Does the country explode at 11:59pm? And is it outside Mark Francois' house?

[rob1966]

Monster Crash with Jacob Rees-Mogg and Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1189853837273817089

Fuck, I was hoping to see a car upside down in a ditch and a mortuary van.

[redmark]

I'm with you in spirit, but it's hard to look beyond the brexit stuff. It's not just one issue amongst others, it is the issue.

Two points: firstly, though Corbyn is the party leader and gets more TV time than the rest, he does not set party policy alone. Any scenario which leads to a Labour led/influenced government and a possible second referendum would be led by party policy, not Corbyn. He's lost plenty of internal party disagreements in the last couple of years.

Secondly - and this applies to antisemitism concerns too, I think - Jeremy Corbyn does not get into No 10 anyway. While the Labour membership may elect him repeatedly, the PM is a result of who can command a majority of MPs. Lib Dems won't stomach Corbyn as PM - and if it comes down to it, half his own MPs won't either.

[TepidT2O]

Two points: firstly, though Corbyn is the party leader and gets more TV time than the rest, he does not set party policy alone. Any scenario which leads to a Labour led/influenced government and a possible second referendum would be led by party policy, not Corbyn. He's lost plenty of internal party disagreements in the last couple of years.

Secondly - and this applies to antisemitism concerns too, I think - Jeremy Corbyn does not get into No 10 anyway. While the Labour membership may elect him repeatedly, the PM is a result of who can command a majority of MPs. Lib Dems won't stomach Corbyn as PM - and if it comes down to it, half his own MPs won't either.

Seamus Milne sets party policy.

[redmark]

Seamus Milne sets party policy.

No he doesn't Tepid. He may set the leader's PR. But they both get knocked back on policy fairly regularly. If they did, there would be no commitment to a referendum on a Labour deal - both in policy, and in what Corbyn says when asked on that policy. It's a convoluted mess of a position to articulate to the electorate versus 'Get Brexit Done' or 'Revoke'. But it's a relatively honest one, given where the party is (and the mistakes that got them there).
 

[BoRed]

Two points: firstly, though Corbyn is the party leader and gets more TV time than the rest, he does not set party policy alone. Any scenario which leads to a Labour led/influenced government and a possible second referendum would be led by party policy, not Corbyn. He's lost plenty of internal party disagreements in the last couple of years.

Secondly - and this applies to antisemitism concerns too, I think - Jeremy Corbyn does not get into No 10 anyway. While the Labour membership may elect him repeatedly, the PM is a result of who can command a majority of MPs. Lib Dems won't stomach Corbyn as PM - and if it comes down to it, half his own MPs won't either.

This is an important point. We've had years of Corbyn this, Corbyn that. Corbyn is useless, Corbyn is incompetent. Corbyn is evil, Corbyn is dangerous. People quitting Labour in fear of the danger posed by Corbyn becoming PM. Lib Dems saying rather a no deal Brexit than Corbyn as PM.

But Corbyn is not PM. He never has been and never will be.

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is PM. Perhaps it's time to stop barking up the wrong tree.

[TepidT2O]

No he doesn't Tepid. He may set the leader's PR. But they both get knocked back on policy fairly regularly. If they did, there would be no commitment to a referendum on a Labour deal - both in policy, and in what Corbyn says when asked on that policy. It's a convoluted mess of a position to articulate to the electorate versus 'Get Brexit Done' or 'Revoke'. But it's a relatively honest one, given where the party is (and the mistakes that got them there).
 

It was a slightly throw away comment..,

However, he does have significant control.

With Milne and Cummings it’s like an ideological ‘who’s the biggest most uncaring c*nt’ competition.

The country would be far better off if both took up ditch diving

[TepidT2O]

This is an important point. We've had years of Corbyn this, Corbyn that. Corbyn is useless, Corbyn is incompetent. Corbyn is evil, Corbyn is dangerous. People quitting Labour in fear of the danger posed by Corbyn becoming PM. Lib Dems saying rather a no deal Brexit than Corbyn as PM.

But Corbyn is not PM. He never has been and never will be.

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is PM. Perhaps it's time to stop barking up the wrong tree.

Is there not a correlation here?

Johnson is only PM because of the complete shitness of Corbyn.  That IS the tree.

Labour has to have a palatable leader next. It cannot just rely on people voting for them just because they’re not the Tories.

This will be four elections in a row that labour has lost.

Maybe there’s something to learn from that?

[goalrushatgoodison]

Why would you get a deal and then vote against it?

Would be genuinely absurd

It would. Dominic Raab levels of absurd.

[Dr. Beaker]

It was a slightly throw away comment..,

However, he does have significant control.

With Milne and Cummings it’s like an ideological ‘who’s the biggest most uncaring c*nt’ competition.

The country would be far better off if both took up ditch diving

And now we are in the situation, in both cases, where the arsehole has been wagging the dog for sufficient time to ensure that the status quo ante will never return. There are still some tectonic plates yet to fall into place but the old days are gone forever.

[BoRed]

Is there not a correlation here?

Johnson is only PM because of the complete shitness of Corbyn.  That IS the tree.

Labour has to have a palatable leader next.

I agree, but they're not about to change their leader in the next six weeks, so it's still the wrong tree to be barking up in the weeks leading up to a general election.

[Jiminy Cricket]

I don't think we should over egg the campaign ran by Corbyn.  Teresa May ran perhaps the worst campaign I can ever remember (arguably even worse than Gordon Brown) and yet still picked up 55 more seats than Corbyn.  I appreciate the popular vote was much closer than that but if he couldn't topple "weak and wobbly" May then he's hardly a master campaigner.

Having said all that, nothing would please me more than a repeat performance of Labour over-achieving.  Anything but a Tory majority.

This.

[TSC]

The fact that trump has waded in via Frottage to attempt to give corbyn a kicking will probably be lapped up by the lunatic fringe on the far right.  On the other hand hopefully it scares any ditherers away from the tories.

Trump would be better served focusing on his impeachment process instead of butting into the election affairs of a foreign country.

[Dr. Beaker]

 Falange must have done deal with Johnson. Bit of dirty work here and there for a safe seat maybe.

[Alan_X]

Corbyns just given a election speech. talked about Labours Brexit stance.
Sky political commentator was asked his opinion on his speech. Corbyns saying he will get a deal in 6 months and put it to the people with the option to remain, he thinks Corbyn will support the Labour deal to leave the EU.

He’s attacking the Lib Dems for campaigning to revoke saying it’s undemocratic. Anyone dumb enough to believe that Corbyn won’t campaign for Brexit/Lexit if Labour wins needs a kick up the bracket.

If you don’t want the Tories to be able to sell off the NHS in a trade deal then STAY IN THE FUCKING EU.

Labour Brexit is Brexit.

By equivocating on Brexit Corbyn has managed to turn away Labour Leavers and more significantly Labour Remainers who voted Labour in 2017 but will vote Lib Dem or Green this time round.

As for the other arguments on here.

Corbyn’s Labour Party has a problem with structural anti-semitism. If you defend it you’re part of the problem.

Corbyn is massively disliked/distrusted by voters. If the Labour Party insists on voting for a useless prick as Leader it’s no good saying the country has to vote for him to keep the Tories out. And replacing him with even more useless politicians like Long-Bailey or Pidcock isn’t going to make them more electable.

Corbyn’s Labour has taken the piss with my vote. I want change. I’d prefer a competent Labour Party but that seems to be a vain hope now. I think we could be fucked for decades.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Monster Crash with Jacob Rees-Mogg and Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1189853837273817089

Cheers for posting that mate. Really cheered me up

[Alan_X]

I agree, but they're not about to change their leader in the next six weeks, so it's still the wrong tree to be barking up in the weeks leading up to a general election.

And when is the right time?

Many of us said Corbyn would be a disaster when he was elected leader.

‘Get behind him - the enemy is the Tory Party’

He fucks up the referendum campaign...

‘Get behind him, he’s only representing what many people think...  the enemy is the Tory Party...’

He loses the 2017 General Election against the Maybot.

‘Get behind him, look how far behind he was... they said he’d be wiped out so it’s really a victory... the enemy is the Tory Party. Keep the faith’

He refuses to campaign for Remain despite all the evidence of corruption, lies and the damage Brexit will do and keeps talking about some bullshit ‘Brexit for jobs...’

‘Get behind him, he’s just waiting for the Tories to melt down. They’ll self destruct and he’ll step in. The real enemy is the Tory Party and you don’t do anything when your enemy is self destructing...’

He comes up with a ridiculous plan to win an election, renegotiate a deal in six months (the EU extension is Jan 31st) then have a referendum between the new deal and Remain. But they won’t talk about Brexit during the election or say which side Labour would campaign for...

‘Get behind him, this election (which is clearly being fought over Brexit) won’t be about Brexit. What about renationalising the Post Office? The Tory Party is the real enemy...’

If Corbyn’s Labour wins or even loses by a small enough margin he’ll stick around like shit on a blanket. If he goes we’ll have more of the same.

There’s no good time for this. Labour needs a clear out or another party needs to take up the reins of progressive politics.

The Tory Party is the real enemy. And it is inexcusable that the Labour Party has utterly failed at a time when the Tories should have been in meltdown, and had been complicit in the greatest political crisis in the UK since the Second World War.

I find it incredible that for the second time in my life, the Labour Party’s left has vacated the heart of British politics and given right wing Tories the centre stage.

[oldfordie]

Cheers for posting that mate. Really cheered me up

JRM as Dracula being repelled by a EU flag
Johnson as Frankenstein, Cummings as Dracula, brilliant.

[jason67]

It's the best option that we have because it's the only system we have.

No offence, but if you're sitting this one out you are part of the problem.

So let me ask you this Alan.. Are you happy with politics at the moment? Or should I say politicians?

You run a business, would you let any of your staff get away with what these clowns are doing?

As for your second point I see you as part as the problem, whatever you think about me you empower these dickheads to continue to do what they do (which if you haven't realised by now is to look after themselves).

They must be laughing their tits off, 50k+ a year and all they have to do is lie to keep the people that elsct them happy.

[oldfordie]

He’s attacking the Lib Dems for campaigning to revoke saying it’s undemocratic. Anyone dumb enough to believe that Corbyn won’t campaign for Brexit/Lexit if Labour wins needs a kick up the bracket.

If you don’t want the Tories to be able to sell off the NHS in a trade deal then STAY IN THE FUCKING EU.

Labour Brexit is Brexit.

By equivocating on Brexit Corbyn has managed to turn away Labour Leavers and more significantly Labour Remainers who voted Labour in 2017 but will vote Lib Dem or Green this time round.

As for the other arguments on here.

Corbyn’s Labour Party has a problem with structural anti-semitism. If you defend it you’re part of the problem.

Corbyn is massively disliked/distrusted by voters. If the Labour Party insists on voting for a useless prick as Leader it’s no good saying the country has to vote for him to keep the Tories out. And replacing him with even more useless politicians like Long-Bailey or Pidcock isn’t going to make them more electable.

Corbyn’s Labour has taken the piss with my vote. I want change. I’d prefer a competent Labour Party but that seems to be a vain hope now. I think we could be fucked for decades.

If the Tories win a majority then am afraid we are f... even if Corbyn +co go.
The damage will be done, leaving the EU with a nutty hard right Tory party. less talented MPs to hold them to account.

[Jiminy Cricket]

So let me ask you this Alan.. Are you happy with politics at the moment? Or should I say politicians?

You run a business, would you let any of your staff get away with what these clowns are doing?

As for your second point I see you as part as the problem, whatever you think about me you empower these dickheads to continue to do what they do (which if you haven't realised by now is to look after themselves).

They must be laughing their tits off, 50k+ a year and all they have to do is lie to keep the people that elsct them happy.

Jason. I understand that you feel the system is terrible/corrupt/whatever. But people deciding to simply sit out will have absolutely zero effect. The only possible way to have any influence upon the system is to be involved. No politician, and no voter will give a toss about your decision to abstain. That's just the reality of the situation.

[Alan_X]

If the Tories win a majority then am afraid we are f... even if Corbyn +co go.
The damage will be done, leaving the EU with a nutty hard right Tory party. less talented MPs to hold them to account.

And as many of us have been saying for years now - Corbyn is a free pass for the Tories. He had his best chance against May and managed to win 50 less seats than her.

A vote for Corbyn is a vote for Brexit.

A vote for Corbyn strengthens his hold over the party and pretty much guarantees Tory government as long as he’s leader.

Johnson is hugely overrated and won’t be great in this campaign. He has skeletons in his closet and has questionable opinions on many subjects. I still think he’ll win fairly comfortably.

[TSC]

Some traditional labour voters (on here but likely resonates beyond too) will have various issues with the current party. The elephant in the room for me is the apparent anti-semitism and the inability or unwillingness to deal with it.

However the current Tory party, led by the ERG and a bunch of sycophants, seemingly overseen by the politically unknown and unelected Cummings, coupled with their Brexit ‘deal’, is by far the biggest danger. 

[TepidT2O]

Still in the EU......

[redmark]

A vote for Corbyn is a vote for Brexit.

A vote for Corbyn strengthens his hold over the party and pretty much guarantees Tory government as long as he’s leader.

I agree with you on most-things-Corbyn, but not these two. Corbyn alone does not determine Labour policy on Brexit. If he did, we'd have left by now. Party policy would not be 'renegotiate then second referendum' if it was down to Corbyn. The Flint -> Kinnock wing never got more than 20 rebels at any point (might be 35 or so tempted), and there are only a handful of real Lexiteers around the leadership. That's no more than 20% of the PLP (and less, in the membership) that support any form of Brexit.

On the latter, I suspect the quickest route to oust Corbyn is if the numbers produce a Labour-LibDem coalition; because MPs - not members - determine the PM. At that point, the PLP will be able to moderate any nominations to the membership vote by making it abundantly clear who they would, or would not, serve. Another defeat will galvanise the hard left, purges will increase and the party really will be fucked for the foreseeable under Pidcock, Burgon or similar.

[oldfordie]

And as many of us have been saying for years now - Corbyn is a free pass for the Tories. He had his best chance against May and managed to win 50 less seats than her.

A vote for Corbyn is a vote for Brexit.

A vote for Corbyn strengthens his hold over the party and pretty much guarantees Tory government as long as he’s leader.

Johnson is hugely overrated and won’t be great in this campaign. He has skeletons in his closet and has questionable opinions on many subjects. I still think he’ll win fairly comfortably.

He's been a walkover for every Tory PM and that's caused the damage.
I know I repeat myself but what got me so upset was how little he influenced public opinion. I cant actually think of anything he argued in the first 2 yrs after the vote to leave that influenced public opinion. I can think of many things May argued that had a massive effect on public opinion.

[Alan_X]

I agree with you on most-things-Corbyn, but not these two. Corbyn alone does not determine Labour policy on Brexit. If he did, we'd have left by now. Party policy would not be 'renegotiate then second referendum' if it was down to Corbyn. The Flint -> Kinnock wing never got more than 20 rebels at any point (might be 35 or so tempted), and there are only a handful of real Lexiteers around the leadership. That's no more than 20% of the PLP (and less, in the membership) that support any form of Brexit.

On the latter, I suspect the quickest route to oust Corbyn is if the numbers produce a Labour-LibDem coalition; because MPs - not members - determine the PM. At that point, the PLP will be able to moderate any nominations to the membership vote by making it abundantly clear who they would, or would not, serve. Another defeat will galvanise the hard left, purges will increase and the party really will be fucked for the foreseeable under Pidcock, Burgon or similar.

I have a lot of respect for your opinion and your knowledge of the party but I’m not sure I agree. I think there’s a strong case that the Labour Party is irreparably fucked for the foreseeable future.

[killer-heels]

Did Antoinette Sandbach vote for Boris’ deal?

[Dr. Beaker]

Did Antoinette Sandbach vote for Boris’ deal?

Pretty sure she voted for it. But she's been a king sized pain in the arse for Johnson (and she is seriously big - believe me, you wouldn't want a knee in the bollocks off this girl) and has really taken a stand against him.

[killer-heels]

Pretty sure she voted for it. But she's been a king sized pain in the arse for Johnson (and she is seriously big - believe me, you wouldn't want a knee in the bollocks off this girl) and has really taken a stand against him.

Thing was that she was big on Tory unity and how she would vote for the deal not so long ago and now within a week she has defected to the Lib Dems who are all about complete revocation of Brexit. Seems a huge leap.

[Dr. Beaker]

Thing was that she was big on Tory unity and how she would vote for the deal not so long ago and now within a week she has defected to the Lib Dems who are all about complete revocation of Brexit. Seems a huge leap.

Literally just seen her have that point put to her in an interview. She said she's been on a 'journey' and learned a  lot over the last three years about how much good stuff the EU does!