Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[Skeeve]

Plaid Cymru, Green and Liberals are talking about a progressive Remain Alliance and not actually standing candidates against Labour candidates who are pro-Remain.

This will be an election that will be decided on tactical voting. Even if the Tories win a large percentage of votes, voting tactically can stop them winning and kill Johnson's deal stone dead

Shame that labour won't reciprocate and will happily campaign strongly enough in places they have never won to hand seats to the tories.

[Trada]

Why are people still going on about Brexit?

There are just 2 outcomes now.

1 A Labour deal of a PV on a soft Brexit or remain

2 Johnsons hard Brexit or maybe a no-deal if no agreement is made at the end of 2020.


Oh and I guess the Lib Dems proping up the Tory deal saying they will take the edge off of the deal..... You know like they did by agreeing with the Tories about taking money away from the poor and disabled giving the go ahead with austerity ... but on the upside a carrier bag costs 5p.

[cloggypop]

Tactical voting link, which will tell you the best party to vote for to get an anti-Brexit majority in the Commons

https://www.getvoting.org/

Hmm...

@LeftieStats: Your "tactical vote dashboard" is telling voters to vote Lib Dem in Truro & Falmouth.

Here was the 2017 result in Truro & Falmouth:

CON: 44% (-)
LAB: 38% (+23)
LD: 15% (-2)
OTH: 3% (-17) https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1189518504606736384

[Trada]

Anyway thats me finished talking about politics on here until after the election or I will just get banned again like every election lately and ive just returned from a few days muted its not worth the hassle.

Come on Jeremy!!!!!

[TheShanklyGates]

Why are people still going on about Brexit?

Why do think we're having this election?

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Why are people still going on about Brexit?

There are just 2 outcomes now.

1 A Labour deal of a PV on a soft Brexit or remain

2 Johnsons hard Brexit or maybe a no-deal if no agreement is made at the end of 2020.


Oh and I guess the Lib Dems proping up the Tory deal saying they will take the edge off of the deal..... You know like they did by agreeing with the Tories about taking money away from the poor and disabled giving the go ahead with austerity ... but on the upside a carrier bag costs 5p.

Labour aren't going to win an outright majority and their only potential coalition partners are explicitly pro-remain. So the 'Labour deal' is a non-starter.

[fudge]

Why are people still going on about Brexit?

There are just 2 outcomes now.

1 A Labour deal of a PV on a soft Brexit or remain

2 Johnsons hard Brexit or maybe a no-deal if no agreement is made at the end of 2020.


Oh and I guess the Lib Dems proping up the Tory deal saying they will take the edge off of the deal..... You know like they did by agreeing with the Tories about taking money away from the poor and disabled giving the go ahead with austerity ... but on the upside a carrier bag costs 5p.

Yeah and the little matter of a tax free personal allowance of Ł10600 for every single person as a truly disruptive way of helping out millions of families. But don’t let that affect your bullshit agenda that day after day reads like the script for a new sketch of the Peoples Front of Judea helping to corrode the anti Tory vote, because you fuckers abdicated responsibility to govern when it was no fun doing it without any money.

[fudge]

Yeah and the little matter of a tax free personal allowance of Ł10600 for every single person as a truly disruptive way of helping out millions of families. But don’t let that affect your bullshit agenda that day after day reads like the script for a new sketch of the Peoples Front of Judea helping to corrode the anti Tory vote, because you fuckers abdicated responsibility to govern when it was no fun doing it without any money.

Sorry I was wrong to post the above , it was reactionary and over the top. It also made reference to Judea which of course we all know wouldn’t pass this governments anti Semite agenda.

[hide5seek]

If the Lib Dems hadn't fucked the country over during the Coalition government, it's unlikely that the Tories would have had a majority in 2015 and the referendum would not have happened.

They got blamed for supporting Tory austerity measures and Tuition fees, allowed for the introduction of the Bedroom Tax, Universal Credit etc etc.

If your conscious can handle that then go grab a bit of the Lib Dems again. Personally I would trust them as far as I could spew them

So, if your in a constituency where Libs have a chance of stopping the Tories but voting Labour means the Tories win?

[hide5seek]

I don't like Corbyn particularly, but I would much rather have a Labour government than a government that contains the likes of Jo Swinson who was at the very heart of the disgusting coalition government of 2010.

In any case, the Liberals have no chance in my constituency.

Labour have a huge majority but could in theory be threatened by Frottage's lot. I'll take Corbyn's Labour over Frottage any day of the week

Your not going to get aLabour government under Corbyn, that is lala land. Any Lib Dem MP is better than a Tory.

[Libertine]

Hmm...

@LeftieStats: Your "tactical vote dashboard" is telling voters to vote Lib Dem in Truro & Falmouth.

Here was the 2017 result in Truro & Falmouth:

CON: 44% (-)
LAB: 38% (+23)
LD: 15% (-2)
OTH: 3% (-17) https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1189518504606736384

Important not to infer likely voting in 2019 too directly from the 2017 result.

The Lib Dems are polling 2-3 times higher now than they were then. Many seats will return to form as Tory-Lib Dem battles. Look at that constituency poll in north east Somerset as an example.

[gazzalfc]

Happy 'Dead in a ditch' day everyone

[Umbarto]

If only.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Do you think Corbyn realises how much he's fucking pissing off Labour Remain voters?

He's an absolute shithouse.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Not to downplay Brexit, it's a big issue, but it's still just one issue in this election. Also I think Brexit is inevitable now so you're basically voting for a Labour Brexit or a Tory one.

Not a hard choice is it?

And if anyone is stupid enough to be duped by the Lib Dems again then quite frankly you can fuck off. Should only be voted for in Lid Dem/Tory marginals and even then I'd feel sick about having to do it. They'll go with the Tories again if the chance presents itself.

So vote for the country to be utterly fucked for 30-50 years and the NHS to be destroyed and the fabric of society to be ripped up and our social contract to be null and void or vote for the country to be utterly fucked for 30-50 years and the NHS to be destroyed and the fabric of society to be ripped up and our social contract to be null and void?

Tough choice.

I've got a better idea. Fuck Corbyn.

Yeah Brexit will likely happen, but for millions of Labour Remain voters to vote Labour and to be told by that c*nt they voted leave....

[TepidT2O]

So vote for the country to be utterly fucked for 30-50 years and the NHS to be destroyed and the fabric of society to be ripped up and our social contract to be null and void or vote for the country to be utterly fucked for 30-50 years and the NHS to be destroyed and the fabric of society to be ripped up and our social contract to be null and void?

Tough choice.

I've got a better idea. Fuck Corbyn.

Yeah Brexit will likely happen, but for millions of Labour Remain voters to vote Labour and to be told by that c*nt they voted leave....

Are you trying to tell me that having the most unpopular leader on electoral history might harm Labours chances?

Surely not!

[Dr. Beaker]

Corbo just giving one of his sermons to a lock-out in Battersea.

Actually I can well see Johnson turning up to massive attendances around the country - it will be shaved heads and tattoos all over the place with plenty of violence all round.

The country can observe and decide if they really want to be on that particular bandwagon.

[Red Viper]

Lots to respond to over the past couple of pages but I can't be bothered going over and over this. I'll just leave with the point that I think helping to facilitate a Tory majority because you don't like Jeremy Corbyn is really stupid.

[Cpt_Reina]

I just dont know what people who supposedly consider themselves liberal or left leaning would find so offensive about this Labour party forming a government.

Beyond their stance on not being overtly remain/revoke on Brexit, they're offering the least worst solution on a confirmatory vote but apparently thats not enough...but whatever, beyond the Brexit stuff what is it that is so awful about them forming a government to you centrists?

Where are the policies which turn you off to such an extent that you'd risk another Tory win?

Seems its mostly personality driven to me, in which case you deserve the Tories and the Brexit they'll deliver.

[vagabond]

I just dont know what people who supposedly consider themselves liberal or left leaning would find so offensive about this Labour party forming a government.

Beyond their stance on not being overtly remain/revoke on Brexit, they're offering the least worst solution on a confirmatory vote but apparently thats not enough...but whatever, beyond the Brexit stuff what is it that is so awful about them forming a government to you centrists?

Where are the policies which turn you off to such an extent that you'd risk another Tory win?

Seems its mostly personality driven to me, in which case you deserve the Tories and the Brexit they'll deliver.

I'm with you in spirit, but it's hard to look beyond the brexit stuff. It's not just one issue amongst others, it is the issue.

[Red Viper]

Sian posted this in the other thread and I think it's worth putting in here as well. Brexit has clouded everything so much these past three years that the real issues seem to have been forgotten.

Brexit or no Brexit, these Tory bastards need to be gone, NOW. End of.

Leaving this here and then I’m off.

Vote for your party, vote tactically, but please make sure the Tories go. I was born in the dying days of Thatcher, my adult years have been blighted by austerity, I want better for my kids.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/30/food-banks-childrens-books-britain-hungry-election

[Cpt_Reina]

I'm with you in spirit, but it's hard to look beyond the brexit stuff. It's not just one issue amongst others, it is the issue.

It is.

But we've ended up where we've ended up, people voted for Brexit and in the 3 years in between its looking now like people are largely now fed up of it and are fatigued enough to just want it done for the most part.

So in light of that, I dont think Labour's stance to allow the people the final say on a deal vs remaining is really anything beyond the pale. Certainly no reason not to vote for them, it seems fair and it seems prudent (to me).

So what else is there that's really a reason to vote for Labour and to risk another hung parliament or Tory majority?

Are the potential Labour voters in here really turned off by their promises to make the UK greener? To close tax loopholes and tax the wealthy? Is it offensive that Labour want to end homelessness?

Where are misgivings? Genuinely curious.

[classycarra]

Lots to respond to over the past couple of pages but I can't be bothered going over and over this. I'll just leave with the point that I think helping to facilitate a Tory majority because you don't like Jeremy Corbyn and/or the Lib Dems is really stupid.

[vagabond]

It is.

But we've ended up where we've ended up, people voted for Brexit and in the 3 years in between its looking now like people are largely now fed up of it and are fatigued enough to just want it done for the most part.

So in light of that, I dont think Labour's stance to allow the people the final say on a deal vs remaining is really anything beyond the pale. Certainly no reason not to vote for them, it seems fair and it seems prudent (to me).

So what else is there that's really a reason to vote for Labour and to risk another hung parliament or Tory majority?

Are the potential Labour voters in here really turned off by their promises to make the UK greener? To close tax loopholes and tax the wealthy? Is it offensive that Labour want to end homelessness?

Where are misgivings? Genuinely curious.

When I said I'm with you in spirit, I mean that I also want a socialist as the leader, and am fully supportive of the vast majority of Labour's policies. The misgivings are entirely about brexit.

But I can't speak for others here.

[classycarra]

Are the potential Labour voters in here really turned off by their promises to make the UK greener? To close tax loopholes and tax the wealthy? Is it offensive that Labour want to end homelessness?

Where are misgivings? Genuinely curious.

So genuine

I'll avoid all your weird framing and add a couple of lesser-spotted criticisms of this iteration of Labour.

Personally I didn't like that the last manifesto offered to redistribute resources to middle class young people. It widens inequality, which is about as far the opposite of my economic political point of view as a party can get.

Also appeared to prioritise nationalising things like rail franchises and the post office which, considering the costs involved (assuming they don't seize assets would cost billions and take years and years, seemed like some insanely poor triage. Personally I want a Labour party that will prioritise reversing cuts and ring fencing funding - particularly to local authority public health. Unfortunately Corbyn et al's use of "anti-austerity" appeared to be (a lot of) lip service/rhetoric, and a handy catch-all word that ultimately didn't seem as important in the manifesto as they made out.

Anyway, that's just a couple of my misgivings (that have steered away from any personality politics) with the current shadow cabinet. I'm gonna be voting for Keir Starmer in this election, as it stands.

[Red Viper]

I've already stated if you need to vote Lib Dems to keep out the Torys then do it whereas some of you in this thread are actively advocating not voting for Labour cos of Corbyn.

[classycarra]

I've already stated if you need to vote Lib Dems to keep out the Torys then do it whereas some of you in this thread are actively advocating not voting for Labour cos of Corbyn.

It wasn't a response to yours, just an addition (also based on quite a few in this thread)

[Andy82lfc]

So genuine

I'll avoid all your weird framing and add a couple of lesser-spotted criticisms of this iteration of Labour.

Personally I didn't like that the last manifesto offered to redistribute resources to middle class young people. It widens inequality, which is about as far the opposite of my economic political point of view as a party can get.

Also appeared to prioritise nationalising things like rail franchises and the post office which, considering the costs involved (assuming they don't seize assets would cost billions and take years and years, seemed like some insanely poor triage. Personally I want a Labour party that will prioritise reversing cuts and ring fencing funding - particularly to local authority public health. Unfortunately Corbyn et al's use of "anti-austerity" appeared to be (a lot of) lip service/rhetoric, and a handy catch-all word that ultimately didn't seem as important in the manifesto as they made out.

Anyway, that's just a couple of my misgivings (that have steered away from any personality politics) with the current shadow cabinet. I'm gonna be voting for Keir Starmer in this election, as it stands.

I think Cpt Reina is pointing out that, yes you maybe right in everything you said, lets throw some more into that fire too, yet it's still galaxys away from 5 more years of tory rule, absolute galaxys. Then the brexit thing, yes Corbyn is being a c*nt, he will continue to be a c*nt, but its at least an offer of a referendum vs torys again and an almost definite exit. Or lib dems who will not get enough seats to revoke, so it at best will be them and torys and a ref at a massive push. So labour and a ref or ref plus lib dems and tory rule.

So I agree with what he says wholeheartedly. Labour are dogshit but I'd rather them a million times over than tory rule again. If they get put back in after all the damage they have done they will bulldoze the shit out of everything they can. All that aside I'll be voting tactically to keep them out no matter what.

[filopastry]

I've already stated if you need to vote Lib Dems to keep out the Torys then do it whereas some of you in this thread are actively advocating not voting for Labour cos of Corbyn.

I would say both sides have the same issue, a lot of LD and Lab supporters will be unwilling to vote for the other party for various reasons.

[Welshred]

When I said I'm with you in spirit, I mean that I also want a socialist as the leader, and am fully supportive of the vast majority of Labour's policies. The misgivings are entirely about brexit.

But I can't speak for others here.

But parties with socialist leaders historically dont get elected in this country...

[Welshred]

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 41% (+8)
LAB: 24% (-)
LDEM: 20% (-3)
BREX: 7% (-3)
GRN: 3% (-1)

via @IpsosMORI, 25 - 28 Oct

Jezza is playing a blinder 

[Andy @ Allerton!]

It is.

But we've ended up where we've ended up, people voted for Brexit and in the 3 years in between its looking now like people are largely now fed up of it and are fatigued enough to just want it done for the most part.

So in light of that, I dont think Labour's stance to allow the people the final say on a deal vs remaining is really anything beyond the pale. Certainly no reason not to vote for them, it seems fair and it seems prudent (to me).

So what else is there that's really a reason to vote for Labour and to risk another hung parliament or Tory majority?

Are the potential Labour voters in here really turned off by their promises to make the UK greener? To close tax loopholes and tax the wealthy? Is it offensive that Labour want to end homelessness?

Where are misgivings? Genuinely curious.

People want Brexit done because they are tired of it.

Ah-ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Once Brexit is 'done' there will nothing in the news for the next 30 years. You can't 'do' Brexit - once it happens, it's a neverending clusterfuck of Deals/Negotiations/horse trading/giveaways/compromises/shit for the country.

[oldfordie]

Corbyns just given a election speech. talked about Labours Brexit stance.
Sky political commentator was asked his opinion on his speech. Corbyns saying he will get a deal in 6 months and put it to the people with the option to remain, he thinks Corbyn will support the Labour deal to leave the EU.

[Circa1892]

Corbyns just given a election speech. talked about Labours Brexit stance.
Sky political commentator was asked his opinion on his speech. Corbyns saying he will get a deal in 6 months and put it to the people with the option to remain, he thinks Corbyn will support the Labour deal to leave the EU.

He will. Because he's fucking shit.

[TepidT2O]

Corbyns just given a election speech. talked about Labours Brexit stance.
Sky political commentator was asked his opinion on his speech. Corbyns saying he will get a deal in 6 months and put it to the people with the option to remain, he thinks Corbyn will support the Labour deal to leave the EU.

Why would you get a deal and then vote against it?

Would be genuinely absurd

[Dr. Beaker]

I suppose the best deal you can get could still be shite (in fact we all know it must be) and then in that case you would vote against it.

[vagabond]

But parties with socialist leaders historically dont get elected in this country...

That may well be the case and may be a reason to vote tactically to stop the tories. I was just talking about the policies I support.

[oldfordie]

Why would you get a deal and then vote against it?

Would be genuinely absurd

Depends how you look at it, there has to be at least 2 questions on the referendum Ballot slip. do you want a disastrous no deal v remain question or a negotiated deal v remain.
Labour could argue they have got the best deal possible and it's up to the people to decide if they want it but they still believe we have the best deal already as members of the EU.

[Jiminy Cricket]

I find myself in an ethical quandary, and would actually appreciate advice from some of the posters here that I consider worthy of respect.

I have always believed that ex-patriates (particularly rich ones) should not vote in UK elections. It seems disingenuous to influence a country which one has decided to leave, especially in terms of tax policy and so forth.

For this election, I find myself a rich ex-pat, but one who was a member of the Labour party for near-on forty years and only ever voted for Labour policies (but never blindly - the 80's were a struggle). I left for NZ because of the Leave vote and my analysis of where the country would fall - as well as my main business being reliant on EU membership. I am fully involved in NZ politics (a shiny new member of the Labour party here) and a sometime advisor to government as I was to the recent Labour government in the UK.

This is possibly the most important vote for the future of the UK in living memory. My place of registration has a Labour MP, not marginal but probably vulnerable. He is a personal friend, a strong Remainer and represents an outlier Remain constituency. Despite being a 'Blairite' he has supported the Corbyn leadership loyally, and is a good man.

On the other hand, I cannot in all conscience vote for the current Labour party as I believe Corbyn as Prime Minister would be an unmitigated disaster, and the stance of the Party on Brexit is reprehensible. (Anti-semitism is a huge concern for me personally). I believe Corbyn and his advisors would embrace Brexit in their own way and not Remain, and thus a vote for Labour is a vote for Brexit. I do not think Corbyn's version of Labour is electable, and even if it was, the demands of government would likely paralyse their efforts to be remotely progressive - especially amongst the economic chaos of whatever a Lexit might look like.

I don't think I should vote, as I am not and am not likely to be, a British citizen that has to face the consequences. Next year, I will be voting Labour in my adopted home of New Zealand, because that affects my future.

Yet by not exercising the franchise that is still mine by law, I may be facilitating terrible problems for the country I still love and the people left behind that don't have my choices.  And if I do vote, do I vote Labour to support my friend despite my severe reservations of what that vote would entail and indicate at the macro-scale. Or do I cast a vote for the LDs as a Revoke party in alignment with my strong view (that may secure the seat for them, but very unlikely, more probably give the seat to a Tory as it was Conservative before 1997). Or waste a vote for the Greens in some sort of deluded personal symbolism that validates my belief one should always exercise the hard-won franchise.

I am genuinely conflicted.

You know, I wasn't sure what I might suggest - I too have always been against 'ex-pats' retaining the franchise, I live abroad, and am also similarly conflicted - but there is a false dilemma contained within your last paragraph: it is a legal right which extends to all those in similar circumstances to you. By not voting, you provide undue weight to others who have emigrated and who might vote the other way to you in the election. Election rules are full of unfairness (FPTP); we all are constrained by the rules. All we can do work as best we can within the framewark as currently constructed. I think it is OK and defensible for you to vote in the upcoming GE.

[Cpt_Reina]

I think Cpt Reina is pointing out that, yes you maybe right in everything you said, lets throw some more into that fire too, yet it's still galaxys away from 5 more years of tory rule, absolute galaxys. Then the brexit thing, yes Corbyn is being a c*nt, he will continue to be a c*nt, but its at least an offer of a referendum vs torys again and an almost definite exit. Or lib dems who will not get enough seats to revoke, so it at best will be them and torys and a ref at a massive push. So labour and a ref or ref plus lib dems and tory rule.

So I agree with what he says wholeheartedly. Labour are dogshit but I'd rather them a million times over than tory rule again. If they get put back in after all the damage they have done they will bulldoze the shit out of everything they can. All that aside I'll be voting tactically to keep them out no matter what.

This is exactly what i'm getting at.

Those misgivings around nationalisation of services etc, they can be legitimate concerns and they're fair enough.

But are they really such terrible and horrible policies that you'd risk taking another Tory coalition to avoid them? Another few years like the last 10?

Surely not.