Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1440153 times)

Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24360 on: August 15, 2019, 06:19:20 pm »
Swinson's reply to Corbyn is fun.

Effectively, "Do you have at least 8 Tory MPs who'll say they'll vote for you? Cos I know 7 Opposition MPs who definitely won't even if every Lib Dem MP did. So shall we move on to discussing possible alternatives?"
Sniping as a substitute for achieving something. She should be doing all she can to persuade those 8 Tories and those 7 Labour MPs to support and join a GoNU regardless of who the leader is.

Honestly, the identity of the leader is the least important thing for an emergency temporary collective that will exist for a few weeks, a political mayfly, and in which the leader will have no real powers and be all but a ceremonial role. Yet all these tedious morons, from all sides, are trying to make it the most important point, and the media, naturally, will lap that up and run with it as if it was the most important issue, not the least.

Dismal
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24361 on: August 15, 2019, 06:24:51 pm »
Sniping as a substitute for achieving something. She should be doing all she can to persuade those 8 Tories and those 7 Labour MPs to support and join a GoNU regardless of who the leader is.

Honestly, the identity of the leader is the least important thing for an emergency temporary collective that will exist for a few weeks, a political mayfly, and in which the leader will have no real powers and be all but a ceremonial role. Yet all these tedious morons, from all sides, are trying to make it the most important point, and the media, naturally, will lap that up and run with it as if it was the most important issue, not the least.

Dismal

I'd rate her chances of succeeding with eg. Ian Austin at somewhere below zero.

The idea of forming a temporary government of national unity purely to hold an election is farcical in itself (why not legislate first if an election is your desired outcome and you have a majority?) but it's fascinating watching everyone pinning their preferred tail to the unicorn.
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Offline TheShanklyGates

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24362 on: August 15, 2019, 06:31:57 pm »
I'd rate her chances of succeeding with eg. Ian Austin at somewhere below zero.

The idea of forming a temporary government of national unity purely to hold an election is farcical in itself (why not legislate first if an election is your desired outcome and you have a majority?) but it's fascinating watching everyone pinning their preferred tail to the unicorn.

There might just be the numbers to prevent no deal in the current House of Commons. There isn't the numbers to do anything else. If there was a majority for a referendum or anything else for that matter then we wouldn't have got to this point.

Stopping no deal is all that can realistically be achieved without an election.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24363 on: August 15, 2019, 06:41:14 pm »
Hmmm and people wonder why I don't respond to replies ............ The usual it's all Jeremys fault bullshit.
The problem isn’t whether he is or isn’t a twat.

The problem is that the vast majority of parliament thinks he is as do the vast majority of the electorate.  And that’s causing huge issues.

There’s a paradox though, if it’s a temporary deal, why not have Corbyn just to stop the utter disaster that a no deal brexit would be.

On the flip side, if Corbyn believes no deal to be so toxic, why wouldn’t he (and the others) just nominate someone of no standing in any party to do the job?

Can’t decide which side of the fence I fall in to be honest.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24364 on: August 15, 2019, 06:46:14 pm »
There might just be the numbers to prevent no deal in the current House of Commons. There isn't the numbers to do anything else. If there was a majority for a referendum or anything else for that matter then we wouldn't have got to this point.

Stopping no deal is all that can realistically be achieved without an election.

Not a lot of this stops 'no deal' though, just potentially delays it for a few more months by asking the EU for an extension to hold an election. If there aren't the numbers to legislate to get to that outcome (ignoring obstacles for the moment) then how are there the numbers there to get to that very same place by bringing down the government and installing a brand new one?

The only upside to this is that it does normalise talk of emergency governments etc., and may put the wind up Johnson and friends that the opposition are, slowly, starting to get their shit sorted. And it may well come to needing it and thrashing things out now may give it a chance of succeeding. Still seems a desperation measure without much of any upside, even if Labour were to squeeze voters back as a result. Legislate and poison pill it for Johnson so he has to extend. That's the classy way to do it.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24365 on: August 15, 2019, 06:56:16 pm »
Lewis Goodall:

NEW: numbers looking even trickier, never mind for putting Corbyn in but for a motion of confidence itself. Chris Leslie tells me the five Change MPs might not vote against the govt in September.

"We'll have to make a judgement in the circumstances in September. But voting 'no conf' without the absolute certainty of an alt govt of national unity risks Parliament being dissolved after 14 days. Which would in turn allow Johnson to crash out without a no-deal on Oct 31st and nothing standing in his way. I think its probably best to keep Parliament active and ready to legislate to stop this craziness."


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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24366 on: August 15, 2019, 06:58:19 pm »
Not a lot of this stops 'no deal' though, just potentially delays it for a few more months by asking the EU for an extension to hold an election. If there aren't the numbers to legislate to get to that outcome (ignoring obstacles for the moment) then how are there the numbers there to get to that very same place by bringing down the government and installing a brand new one?

The only upside to this is that it does normalise talk of emergency governments etc., and may put the wind up Johnson and friends that the opposition are, slowly, starting to get their shit sorted. And it may well come to needing it and thrashing things out now may give it a chance of succeeding. Still seems a desperation measure without much of any upside, even if Labour were to squeeze voters back as a result. Legislate and poison pill it for Johnson so he has to extend. That's the classy way to do it.

I should have clarified that I mean stopping no deal on the 31st of October. There isn't a majority to stop Brexit outright in this parliament but there may be a majority to get another extension. To stop Brexit outright you need to change the arithmetic which requires an election. Maybe we then end up with no deal anyway but at least we'd have one last chance to try and stop it at the ballot box.

And it was possible to force May into getting an extension because she was going to do it anyway. The Cooper-Letwin bill was only necessary because by that point nobody trusted her to keep her word. Johnson on the other hand would be much more belligerent to the point where legislating to force him to ask for an extension may not work. This is a good thread explaining some of the problems with that approach https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1162022412982075397.html?refreshed=yes If you cannot force Johnson into getting an extension then the only way to get one is the change the government.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24367 on: August 15, 2019, 07:05:24 pm »
So put the antisemite lightning rod in power because Labour moderates couldn't get their act together and kick him out before now? Yeah, no.

Parliament doesn't exist to wipe the arse of the constant mess that is the Labour Party. They should get their own house in order before having the gall to criticise anyone else.
Lets see how this plays out, Corbyn will be the one calling the VONC and he has the right to ask other MPs to back him as PM. the parties will meet and thrash something out hopefully, am sure some will say they can't back Corbyn as the leader of the National Government but they will back others inside the Labour party or any other party. the ball will be back in Corbyns court then, if he's not willing to give up his demand he may refuse to call the VONC, big mistake, I can see all the MPs who opposed Corbyn giving in under protest, they will hammer Corbyn in the election debates for putting his own interests before the countries.
We have to deal with realty, nobody is looking at it as a vote of confidence in Corbyn, it's a vote to stop a no deal. the fight against Labour party AS is important but it has nothing to do with stopping a no deal.
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24368 on: August 15, 2019, 07:11:08 pm »
Getting "Jo Swinson is a Tory" (who's named a Labour MP she could support) trending is really showing who the grown ups are in the room, and that the priority is Brexit, not party divides.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24369 on: August 15, 2019, 07:12:30 pm »
If you cannot force Johnson into getting an extension then the only way to get one is the change the government.

Snipping to this cos it's the important one given it's August and Parliament isn't sitting. The 'if' can be tried first, can't it? Was chatting about some of the problems with it last night with oldfordie, but as Peretz points out in his thread there, penalty clauses for failure can be made very politically costly for Johnson or mitigate the political fallout for a new government coming in.
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24370 on: August 15, 2019, 07:17:49 pm »
I'd rate her chances of succeeding with eg. Ian Austin at somewhere below zero.

The idea of forming a temporary government of national unity purely to hold an election is farcical in itself (why not legislate first if an election is your desired outcome and you have a majority?) but it's fascinating watching everyone pinning their preferred tail to the unicorn.
Are you still saying this despite it being answered numerous times?

Once again: the goal of forming a GoNU is not "purely to secure an election", it's not to secure an election all, and I can't see why you keep saying this. The goal is to prevent a cliff edge crash out on Oct 31 which Johnson and his government have stated they will cause to happen. Maybe they are lying, maybe they are involved in some kind of brinkmanship, who knows? But they have stated that they will facilitate a No Deal crash out so that has to be taken seriously.

No one wants to form a GoNU to prevent a No Deal crash out. That is proper sledgehammer to crack a nut territory, and we all know it. Every sane person would rather that the government would stop such a calamity of its own accord, because it is run by sensible people. But that very government has bragged and crowed about its intention to allow No Deal to happen. So everyone else has little choice but to try and wield a sledgehammer , i.e a GoNU and all the hassle it will entail just to stop a No Deal, just to do something the government could do with a single breath.

And General Election shortly afterwards is NOT a goal of the GoNU - I mean it might be any given individuals' goal, such as Corbyn's, but not the goal of the collective. Rather a GE will be a consequence of the government being defeated in a VoNC, and there almost certainly being no majority for either revoke or referendum in the House. An unfortunate consequence, which almost certainly will not result in anything good for the Remain side, but that's where we are.
 
Not sure what you mean about the unicorns line. Do you think I'm gunning for an election? That that is my preference? Absolutely not. It'll be a horrible, belligerent, corrosive, destructive campaign followed either by a result that brings continued paralysis or a full on right wing coup.

My preference is to revoke the shit out of this right now and deal with the consequences after, right up to using the army to deal with fucking Yaxley Lennon and his thugs. But just because that's my preference doesn't mean it will happen, so I have to at least try and take a clear-headed look at what probably might happen, as substandard as that may well be
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24371 on: August 15, 2019, 07:24:45 pm »
Are you still saying this despite it being answered numerous times?

Yes. You think it makes sense, I think it's a nonsense desperation measure. I understand that.
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24372 on: August 15, 2019, 07:25:45 pm »
Snipping to this cos it's the important one given it's August and Parliament isn't sitting. The 'if' can be tried first, can't it? Was chatting about some of the problems with it last night with oldfordie, but as Peretz points out in his thread there, penalty clauses for failure can be made very politically costly for Johnson or mitigate the political fallout for a new government coming in.
Here I agree with you. All the talk about VoNC and GoNU has been assuming that other attempts have failed. We're all being a bit premature in that, I agree.

Try and legislate for an extension, certainly. Try and legislate for a revocation while you are at it.
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24373 on: August 15, 2019, 07:26:59 pm »
Yes. You think it makes sense, I think it's a nonsense desperation measure. I understand that.
I don't think it makes sense. I think it's just what will likely happen, and why, if we get to the VoNC stage. I hope you can see that that is different
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24374 on: August 15, 2019, 07:30:40 pm »
I don't think it makes sense. I think it's what will likely happen if we get to the VoNC stage. I hope you can see that that is different

Still true.

Not saying it's probable, just that if MPs are going to all that trouble to bring down the government to avoid a specific outcome, and run the country for a couple of months before an election can be held, then throwing it all up in the air again immediately after they've got power would seem a remarkably bizarre thing to do. They cannot stop 'no deal' without revoking Article 50 or without finding a negotiated exit from the EU which will pass through Parliament. I do agree an election before 2022 would be the likely outcome - just saying that there's definitely going to be a period where you need to form a government and if MPs are going to be damned for a lamb, then they'll also be thinking they may as well be damned for a sheep.

Totally agree that a referendum is a huge stinking problem. But then so is the aftermath of an extension based on holding an election and hoping that the next government in will be able to pass the Withdrawal Agreement and/or legislation for a referendum by tweaking the political declaration before the timer runs out yet again.

edit: I want my unicorn to be stripey and have a purple mane btw.  ;)
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Offline nayia2002

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24375 on: August 15, 2019, 07:46:47 pm »
Cannot describe my hatred(always disliked them  :wanker)for the lib dems since that Tory loving bitch got elected party leader a few weeks ago  :wanker :no

You selfish 2 faced cow labour and Corbyn are HM official opposition party!
Not you and the spineless snake chukka umumma 
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24376 on: August 15, 2019, 07:56:08 pm »
Ok let me rephrase it this way. It's rather like the old footballing adage that you can't win the title in October but you can lose it.

Sort of similarly (but not exactly the same, I know, pedants) you can't 'win' against No Deal in October, as it can still happen later on, but  you can 'lose' if No Deal happens, irrevocably, on Oct 31.

That's why sensible and sane parliamentarians may well have to go to ridiculous lengths like a bad-tempered, ill-founded, unwanted GoNU, which will result inevitably in a GE that most of them don't want at this juncture, just to stop that No Deal happening on Oct 31, even though they know it could well still happen a few months later. It could be a huge waste of time, but they may have to try it anyway, if all other options are closed.

There's nothing good about the situation we are in.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24377 on: August 15, 2019, 07:59:51 pm »
Cannot describe my hatred(always disliked them  :wanker)for the lib dems since that Tory loving bitch got elected party leader a few weeks ago  :wanker :no

You selfish 2 faced cow labour and Corbyn are HM official opposition party!
Not you and the spineless snake chukka umumma 
Ok, devils advocate.

If Corbyn is that determined to stop a no deal Brexit, and given that people won’t work with him.... why wouldn’t he let someone more palatable (Harman?)  become interim PM to save the country?

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24378 on: August 15, 2019, 08:08:13 pm »
Ok, devils advocate.

If Corbyn is that determined to stop a no deal Brexit, and given that people won’t work with him.... why wouldn’t he let someone more palatable (Harman?)  become interim PM to save the country?



Whether  "we" like it or not he has won 2 leadership contests and he is the party leader which in my eyes gives him the right to be interim PM to stop a no deal Brexit and call a GE for the autumn!
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24379 on: August 15, 2019, 08:11:40 pm »
Ok let me rephrase it this way. It's rather like the old footballing adage that you can't win the title in October but you can lose it.

Sort of similarly (but not exactly the same, I know, pedants) you can't 'win' against No Deal in October, as it can still happen later on, but  you can 'lose' if No Deal happens, irrevocably, on Oct 31.

That's why sensible and sane parliamentarians may well have to go to ridiculous lengths like a bad-tempered, ill-founded, unwanted GoNU, which will result inevitably in a GE that most of them don't want at this juncture, just to stop that No Deal happening on Oct 31, even though they know it could well still happen a few months later. It could be a huge waste of time, but they may have to try it anyway, if all other options are closed.

There's nothing good about the situation we are in.

Can see that, can also see the attraction of packaging it as "And there won't be policies so we only need to worry about having an election". But, as with Lucas' ideas about holding a referendum, there has to be an acknowledgement that a temporary government (even self-limiting in time) is still going to have to run the country. It's still going to be making decisions, even during purdah.

Will put an extra £25 into Rawk's coffers should the following play out: government of national unity is formed, announcement is that this will be a limited government and has no intention of governing until 2022 and will hold an election at as early a date as possible. Its job is a caretaker one etc etc etc etc...  and will hold a general election in spring 2020 (I'd go for May 2020 but I think that's too long).

Don't think it's workable. Don't think it's going to be politically sane for anyone to sign up to that after, what, 5 months of relentless Johnson and Frottage campaigning specifically geared to an election? As a last gasp measure, the noble sacrifice of political parties and careers on the bonfire of Brexit, yeah. Anyways, why I think it's so unlikely and unworkable in that form as much as any other. Least lingering on leaves room for other options before heading into an election. It's not like Tories who go for that will be standing for Parliament again either. Well, not as Tories, heh.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 08:13:30 pm by Zeb »
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Offline RobinHood

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24380 on: August 15, 2019, 08:15:47 pm »
Whether  "we" like it or not he has won 2 leadership contests and he is the party leader which in my eyes gives him the right to be interim PM to stop a no deal Brexit and call a GE for the autumn!

The internal elections of the Labour Party are totally irrelevant to the Tories, Lib Dem’s, SNP and the others. It’s who has the support of Parliament that matters, and if Harman has and Corbyn hasn’t then it should be her any day of the week.

We all know he won’t step aside though as a temporary PM is the closest he’ll ever get. What a mess we’re in.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24381 on: August 15, 2019, 08:18:54 pm »
Whether  "we" like it or not he has won 2 leadership contests and he is the party leader which in my eyes gives him the right to be interim PM to stop a no deal Brexit and call a GE for the autumn!

Lots of people in this hypothetical GoNU won't be Labour MPs and don't really care about that. I mean, I don't know. The PM and LotO (especially in a political environment so geared towards two massive parties) seem to me to be the two most divisive positions in Parliament and therefore at odds with the very concept of 'Unity'. I worry as well that Corbyn heading anything like this is going to be easily portrayed by the Tory machine as some sort of coup, leading to blowback at the GE. If I were Corbyn, I'd be happy to be well out of it (as long as I was assured a GE).

I'd agree that Corbyn entitled to ask the question and sound people out about commanding the confidence of the Commons, but if it becomes apparent that people won't get behind him then he needs to not just go off in a huff, taking the whole party with him.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24382 on: August 15, 2019, 08:36:52 pm »
Whether  "we" like it or not he has won 2 leadership contests and he is the party leader which in my eyes gives him the right to be interim PM to stop a no deal Brexit and call a GE for the autumn!
He is the leader of the opposition and he has the right to try and form a government first. if he fails then others have the right to form a government. we all know the problem,  it's about appointing a leader acceptable to all MPs.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24383 on: August 15, 2019, 08:41:10 pm »
Getting "Jo Swinson is a Tory" (who's named a Labour MP she could support) trending is really showing who the grown ups are in the room, and that the priority is Brexit, not party divides.
all about winning twitter for those losers

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24384 on: August 15, 2019, 08:49:22 pm »
Whether  "we" like it or not he has won 2 leadership contests and he is the party leader which in my eyes gives him the right to be interim PM to stop a no deal Brexit and call a GE for the autumn!
That’s an answer to a different question...

Go back and answer my question...  I don’t know the answer too it, I don’t have an answer, I'm interested in what others think
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24385 on: August 15, 2019, 08:53:13 pm »
The internal elections of the Labour Party are totally irrelevant to the Tories, Lib Dem’s, SNP and the others. It’s who has the support of Parliament that matters, and if Harman has and Corbyn hasn’t then it should be her any day of the week.

We all know he won’t step aside though as a temporary PM is the closest he’ll ever get. What a mess we’re in.
corbyn doesn’t have the support of his MPs never mind other party MPs, who no doubt don’t want the prospect of the likes of Milne and Murray having the machinery of the state to play with even for a temporary arrangement

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24386 on: August 15, 2019, 09:01:48 pm »
The so called anti-no deal parties and politicians are an absolute disgrace. Not one of them are willing to put aside their own petty agendas to stop us crashing out of the EU and with mere weeks to go until doomsday there's no common plan to stop Johnson riding roughshod over democracy and all the attention is on ludicrous bullshit like the 'suggestion' Lucas has come up with.

The 'Tory rebels', if such a thing even exists, and the Lib Dems would rather no deal than see Corbyn as Prime Minister.

Corbyn is completely unwilling to countenance any solution which doesn't involve him becoming PM and I suspect would be fine with the damage no deal will do so he can point the finger at the Tories and hope the country turns to him to save us.

Of course Corbyn would be fine with no deal when he is a fecking brexiter and the idea of any remain alliance being happy with him being in charge is quite rightly laughable on those grounds regardless of opinion on other policies.


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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24387 on: August 15, 2019, 09:04:16 pm »
and have a purple mane btw.  ;)

I don't care what colour Mane is, as long as he's a red
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24388 on: August 15, 2019, 09:37:16 pm »
I don't think the big question has been clarified yet. it's not about Corbyn asking to be leader of a National Government after a VONC, is he making this a condition for calling a VONC, is he telling all the parties he won't call the VONC unless they back him as leader.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 10:05:18 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread
« Reply #24389 on: August 15, 2019, 09:46:13 pm »
I don't think the big question right has been clarified yet. it's not about Corbyn asking to be leader of a National Government after a VONC, is he making this a condition for calling a VONC, is he telling all the parties he won't call the VONC unless they back him as leader.
if that’s the case he won’t do it, so it could massively backfire on him if he’s essentially seen as the roadblock to preventing no deal (not to mention the irony of the man who did whatever he wanted as a backbencher and undermined all his predecessors now demands people from other parties, even tories to get in line behind him!)

Plus if he did become PM this way could you be that confident that he sticks to his word on it being a temp where there is no legislation passed?

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread
« Reply #24390 on: August 15, 2019, 10:04:05 pm »
if that’s the case he won’t do it, so it could massively backfire on him if he’s essentially seen as the roadblock to preventing no deal (not to mention the irony of the man who did whatever he wanted as a backbencher and undermined all his predecessors now demands people from other parties, even tories to get in line behind him!)

Plus if he did become PM this way could you be that confident that he sticks to his word on it being a temp where there is no legislation passed?
I think this is playing out as expected up to now, it all depends on whether Corbyn makes a bad tactical error. he is leader of the opposition, he should be the person who has the first chance to form a government so there's nothing wrong with him asking other parties to form a government with him, this is how things have always worked, the Lib Dems see Corbyn as a remainer they can't trust, they don't trust him and would never endorse him as leader so it's no suprise to hear them say they won't support him but this is the first stage, it's a opportunity for the Lib Dems to show the country they are not willing to jump into bed with Corbyn unless they are given no choice, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Lib Dems walked away telling Corbyn he has to allow another leader to be chosen or we will finish up with a no deal. Corbyn will go on record saying he's not prepared to allow another MP to be leader, imo the Lib Dems will back down and support him and we hopefully win the VONC,
Corbyn now has to campaign to win a GE, the Lib Dems will rip him apart for being prepared to allow us to crash out with no deal unless he became leader, being leader was more important to Corbyn than stopping a no deal.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24391 on: August 15, 2019, 10:05:42 pm »


Plus if he did become PM this way could you be that confident that he sticks to his word on it being a temp where there is no legislation passed?

He would have no majority for anything beyond Brexit. He couldn't pass legislation. He would himself be no confidenced if he did anything beyond the agreed remit.

I get that people don't think he should be PM. But I don't get how people think he's going to sneak legislation through a hostile house.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24392 on: August 15, 2019, 10:12:35 pm »
You know why the Lib Dems are doing this, they know that a General election will now come down to vote Tory for a Johnson hard Brexit or Labour for a 2nd ref on any deal Labour get, with remain on the ballot there will be no need to vote for the Brexit party or the Lib Dems.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24393 on: August 15, 2019, 10:15:56 pm »
You know why the Lib Dems are doing this, they know that a General election will now come down to vote Tory for a Johnson hard Brexit or Labour for a 2nd ref on any deal Labour get, with remain on the ballot there will be no need to vote for the Brexit party or the Lib Dems.
That makes no sense.

They would be quite happy to back this with almost anyone else leading it.  They’ve said as much

Their problem is Corbyn.  His uselessness and his racism.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24394 on: August 15, 2019, 10:45:09 pm »
Well Trada, you had better hope the LibDems aren't irrelevant because without them picking off Tory marginals in The South, the Tories are likely to get a majority

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24395 on: August 15, 2019, 10:50:03 pm »
Quote
Election Maps UK
@ElectionMapsUK
 · 6m
According to my numbers:

At worst, a Corbyn caretaker Govt. WOULD FAIL to get the House's confidence by 34 votes.

At best, a Corbyn caretaker Govt. WOULD SUCCEED in getting the House's confidence by 1 vote.


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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24396 on: August 15, 2019, 11:00:51 pm »

He would have no majority for anything beyond Brexit. He couldn't pass legislation. He would himself be no confidenced if he did anything beyond the agreed remit.

I get that people don't think he should be PM. But I don't get how people think he's going to sneak legislation through a hostile house.
you seriously don’t think there is a possibility they won’t willingly give up a position where they control the country? Even if he did get no confidenced, much like boris I don’t see them giving it up quietly (and there is the question of who next)

That makes no sense.

They would be quite happy to back this with almost anyone else leading it.  They’ve said as much

Their problem is Corbyn.  His uselessness and his racism.
corbyn and the people around him, bad enough they run the Labour Party so can’t see them getting the backing

I think this is playing out as expected up to now, it all depends on whether Corbyn makes a bad tactical error. he is leader of the opposition, he should be the person who has the first chance to form a government so there's nothing wrong with him asking other parties to form a government with him, this is how things have always worked, the Lib Dems see Corbyn as a remainer they can't trust, they don't trust him and would never endorse him as leader so it's no suprise to hear them say they won't support him but this is the first stage, it's a opportunity for the Lib Dems to show the country they are not willing to jump into bed with Corbyn unless they are given no choice, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Lib Dems walked away telling Corbyn he has to allow another leader to be chosen or we will finish up with a no deal. Corbyn will go on record saying he's not prepared to allow another MP to be leader, imo the Lib Dems will back down and support him and we hopefully win the VONC,
Corbyn now has to campaign to win a GE, the Lib Dems will rip him apart for being prepared to allow us to crash out with no deal unless he became leader, being leader was more important to Corbyn than stopping a no deal.

one thing in the Lib Dem’s favour is that corbyn is massively unpopular (rather pathetic in the circumstances), so all they need to do is highlight why he’s unsuitable (can’t command the house, the antisemitism, his uselessness, his past etc) whilst also saying she had a credible alternative (Harman) who could have worked, and bingo Jezza gets the shit and his dreams die at long last

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24397 on: August 15, 2019, 11:41:53 pm »

He would have no majority for anything beyond Brexit. He couldn't pass legislation. He would himself be no confidenced if he did anything beyond the agreed remit.

I get that people don't think he should be PM. But I don't get how people think he's going to sneak legislation through a hostile house.

I'm not exactly sure how yet, but I just can't see that this proposal and the thinking behind it hasn't got some kind of contingency, a careful calculation, for just such a thing to be able to occur.

It just wouldn't have been made otherwise, not with Murray and Milne behind it.

It's a trust thing. Do you trust them, really? Does anyone trust them other than the acolytes and the delirious?
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24398 on: August 16, 2019, 12:04:40 am »
Do you trust them, really? Does anyone trust them other than the acolytes and the delirious?
a lot of the corbyn outriders don’t seem to get that a lot of people on the centre left/centre do not trust those people at all and find them utterly toxic, so if he can’t get those onside how the hell could he get Tories on side?

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24399 on: August 16, 2019, 12:08:34 am »

one thing in the Lib Dem’s favour is that corbyn is massively unpopular (rather pathetic in the circumstances), so all they need to do is highlight why he’s unsuitable (can’t command the house, the antisemitism, his uselessness, his past etc) whilst also saying she had a credible alternative (Harman) who could have worked, and bingo Jezza gets the shit and his dreams die at long last
I expect the Election campaign to get really nasty so am sure all the parties will be tearing into Corbyn, am sure his supporters will argue he can't win either way, whatever he says will be thrown back in his face by his critics and thats true but he created this situation. even now we are being told Labours changed it's stance, they are now a remain party who support another referendum, vote Labour if you want to stop a no deal and bring about another referendum. where was he 3 yrs ago when Owen Smith made this argument, all the sh.. thrown at him and others to get us where we are today. are we supposed to desert all the MPs who have stood up to be counted, taken death threats and abuse daily while he has argued we must respect the result of the referendum but he will get a jobs first Brexit. a lot of s,, can be thrown at Corbyn for what he has done over the last few yrs but the thing that sickened me the most is what he did to Anna Soubry after she left the Tory party.
The woman has ripped her own party apart far more than Corbyn has ever done. she went through a period of not being able to return home due to death threats. what did Corbyn do while this was happening, he held a rally in her constituency demanding she held a by election to unseat her, he was demanding she walks round the streets banging on doors of angry gammons while the woman is in fear of her life due to fighting the Tories Brexit. he's a very nice man am told.
 I think it's very important to support any MP who has stood up to be counted over the last few yrs regardless of party. there are many MPs who have in the Labour party and I hope voters support them the rest can pee off.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
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