Topic: Liverpool set to transform Kirkby Academy

[paulrazor]

Selling the Melwood sight won't bring in millions and millions it'll hardly make a dent in the £50m outlay.

we will see

[El Lobo]

James Pearce @JamesPearceEcho 2m2 minutes ago
Klopp on move to Kirkby: "I really love to Melwood but football changes. Sometimes you have to set standards."

James Pearce @JamesPearceEcho 1m1 minute ago
Klopp: "It's good that our owners give us the opportunity to make this big step in the future and bring Academy and 1st team together."

Would he actually say if he thought it was a bad idea though? 

[Chakan]

Would he actually say if he thought it was a bad idea though? 

Wasn't he the one pushing for it?

[Anfield89]

we will see

How much do you actually think land is worth?

[JCB]

Some german clubs use this , not sure if the link works

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhAyX81zP2M

Remember seeing that last year.... turns out that it costs somewhere between $2.4 million to $3.5 million depending on the level of complexity you want. Shankly probably got the Sweatbox built for a couple of grand for what is in effect similar results. The guy was a a visionary and a legend

[KiNki]

How much do you actually think land is worth?

It's a buyers market. How much is a plot of land in Kirkby worth? Depends very much on who buys it and for what purpose.

[CraigDS]

Nearest land for sale I could find is going for £50k for 1/2 acre. It's brownfield though so doesn't benefit from planning, although neither will the Melwood plot currently.

Not entirely sure how large Melwood is, but don't think it's any bigger than 15 acres.

[Uncle Ronnie]

Is there a chance that they won't sell off the land as is? Arsenal redeveloped Highbury and sold the flats themselves I believe.

Edit, from Wiki: The complex cost Arsenal £130 million to build. In 2009, Arsenal sold 150 apartments in Highbury Square to London & Stamford Property at a 20 per cent discount to market value because several buyers failed to complete apartment purchases. Arsenal cleared their debt on Highbury Square by 2010

[CraigDS]

The original press release makes it sound like the club will develop the land. Arsenal benefited from silly London prices though, we certainly won't.

[Eeyore]

Nearest land for sale I could find is going for £50k for 1/2 acre. It's brownfield though so doesn't benefit from planning, although neither will the Melwood plot currently.

Not entirely sure how large Melwood is, but don't think it's any bigger than 15 acres.

Big enough for 160 family houses according to the echo.

[gazzam1963]

It's a buyers market. How much is a plot of land in Kirkby worth? Depends very much on who buys it and for what purpose.

Think he's talking about melwood , If Liverpool gain plannjng  permission for the 160 houses muted the sites worth more than without ...with permission I'd say around between 30 and 40 grand a plot so around six million at the top end

[Anfield89]

It's a buyers market. How much is a plot of land in Kirkby worth? Depends very much on who buys it and for what purpose.

Not millions and millions that will pay for the new development

If they are going to build houses on the site then it will raise the price but don't think we'd be getting at a stretch anymore than £10m out of it.

[Uncle Ronnie]

Arsenal benefited from silly London prices though, we certainly won't.

Oh absolutely, but just wondered which way the club will go with it. Just sell it off and pocket the cash, or go with the development themselves.

[paulrazor]

How much do you actually think land is worth?

no way of knowing. I'd imagine a good few million anyway

[Anfield89]

no way of knowing. I'd imagine a good few million anyway

There's a way of getting a rough idea. prices of land, the size of the area. prices of the houses (if that's what's going to be built). A few million yes. It's not going to pay for a £50 million pound investment though.

[paulrazor]

I never said it would

[rob1966]

Gazza and rob. Not what I was trying to get at. Was asking what klopps version of it is

Ah, right. Was just jumping on RAWK while at work so didn't have a proper read.

I'd seen that Dortmund one before, awesome bit of kit. Shows Shanks was well ahead of his time.

[paulrazor]

Does indeed. They were still at melwood in 90s

[Chalky Boots]

what was the sweatbox?

Pretty much as the other posters have said. It was a box with painted sides, can't remember exactly but I think they'd chuck a ball in, the player would then have to control and hit an assigned part of the box. Helped with improving speed of thought and didn't intrude on main sessions. Edit: also think the early version Shanks had was essentially a giant sandpit as well, probably just to make the players sweat that little bit more; from digging a bit deeper, and coming across an old thread on RAWK http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=305389.0 it sounds like Shankly had two back in the day.

At Dortmund, and I believe they still use it (as well as Hoffenheim now), Klopp introduced the Footbonaut system. At the time it cost a couple of mil to install, might be a bit cheaper now, but it does mean players can have individual skill lessons after their main sessions are over. Obviously because Melwood was so small I'm not sure we could have had such a machine but with the expansion maybe it's a possibility.

Personally I think it would be worthwhile as klopp would be able to get players doing skill focused session after training and anything that could help the coaches would be more than welcome to be honest.

[Steve O]

Maybe it will be paid for using the money from the proposed sleeve sponsorship thats being talked about for next season onwards. Unless we are one of the unlucky few who have exclusivity deals with main shirt sponsor

[paulrazor]

Some good info chalky boots.

[jillcwhomever]

Pretty much as the other posters have said. It was a box with painted sides, can't remember exactly but I think they'd chuck a ball in, the player would then have to control and hit an assigned part of the box. Helped with improving speed of thought and didn't intrude on main sessions. Edit: also think the early version Shanks had was essentially a giant sandpit as well, probably just to make the players sweat that little bit more; from digging a bit deeper, and coming across an old thread on RAWK http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=305389.0 it sounds like Shankly had two back in the day.

At Dortmund, and I believe they still use it (as well as Hoffenheim now), Klopp introduced the Footbonaut system. At the time it cost a couple of mil to install, might be a bit cheaper now, but it does mean players can have individual skill lessons after their main sessions are over. Obviously because Melwood was so small I'm not sure we could have had such a machine but with the expansion maybe it's a possibility.

Personally I think it would be worthwhile as klopp would be able to get players doing skill focused session after training and anything that could help the coaches would be more than welcome to be honest.

That's really interesting thanks for that.

[Theatre of Screams]

Think this is long overdue. Who was the last youth player who came through from the academy to the first team and stayed there?

[CraigDS]

Think this is long overdue. Who was the last youth player who came through from the academy to the first team and stayed there?

Because United have been bringing through a conveyor belt of talent over the last decade haven't they?

[jillcwhomever]

Think this is long overdue. Who was the last youth player who came through from the academy to the first team and stayed there?

It is not just Liverpool that has this problem, a lot of the big clubs are not doing enough about bringing young players into the first team. There is too much short termism going on in football, that and the fact that people are too impatient, and want immediate success when a new manager comes in. But Klopp has serious plans to integrate youngsters from the academy so putting the first team in Kirkby is crucial to this.

Sterling came through the academy, a lot of his development was done here, until he chose City. We also had John Flanagan in the team when Brendan was here.

[the_red_pill]

To fork out 50mil out of the blue "just" to upgrade our facilities shows you that these guys do care about competing- with whatever resources they have.

I mean let's face it- this will not pay for itself immediately and there is no immediate gains in this- only long term, yet they've invested. They could've invested it somewhere else- we know the first team deffo needs depth, yet they've decided to do this.

Fantastic from FSG!

[KiNki]

Because United have been bringing through a conveyor belt of talent over the last decade haven't they?

Comparatively speaking, yes, they have had a conveyor belt of introducing youth to their first team, and then selling these squaddies that have failed to really cement a first team place and get substantial fees allowing them to reinvest the money in first teamers they do want.

[CraigDS]

Comparatively speaking, yes, they have had a conveyor belt of introducing youth to their first team, and then selling these squaddies that have failed to really cement a first team place and get substantial fees allowing them to reinvest the money in first teamers they do want.

Like we've been doing too, you mean?

[KiNki]

Like we've been doing too, you mean?

You could include raheem to skew the figures but he was a youth player that did cement a first team place for himself.  He was sold against wishes not cos he couldn't break into the side, or hold a place down, or was surplus to requirement.

With regard those types of players united have earned themselves approx 70m in sales 10 years from youth players who broke into first team squad but were ultimately 2nd fiddle and were sold on. Liverpool in the same time period, approx 40m of talent.

So yes like what they've been doing just half as good.

[CraigDS]

You could include raheem to skew the figures but he was a youth player that did cement a first team place for himself.  He was sold against wishes not cos he couldn't break into the side, or hold a place down, or was surplus to requirement.

With regard those types of players united have earned themselves approx 70m in sales 10 years from youth players who broke into first team squad but were ultimately 2nd fiddle and were sold on. Liverpool in the same time period, approx 40m of talent.

So yes like what they've been doing just half as good.

How has that changed in, say, the last 6 years since these owners have been here?

I mean isn't really what I replied to, so you've taken this on a bit of a tangent, but I'd imagine we've improved in this area over the course of the last decade, and particularly the last 5 years.


Edit - also where has £70m come from for them? Just had a quick scan and seems pretty high.

[KiNki]

You said they haven't had a conveyor belt of players, i contested the point that they've had a substantial number who've supplemented the squad, probably a leading club for it, sadly.  They've also done well supplementing their transfer kitty by selling the shite who can't quite make first 11.

transfer market figures for the past decade for manc players who played stiff and first team footy.

paddy mcnair - 4m sunderland - 24 appearances
tyler blackett 1.5m reading - 11 appearances
will keane 1m - 2 appearances
johnny evans 7m - west brom - 131 appearances
reece james 1m - wigan  - 0
danny welbeck - 17m arsenal - 92 appearances
michael keane - 2m - 1 appearance
richard de liat - 1m leicester - 3 appearances
john o shea - 4m sunderland - 256 appearances
wes brown - 1.2m sunderland-232 appearances
danny drinkwater - leicester 700k - 0 appearances
darren gibson - everton 500k - 31 appearances
corey evans - hull 500k
young ben foster - 6m  to birmingham - 12 appearances
frazer cambell - sunderland 3.5m
gerard pique - 4.5m - 12 appearances
chris eagles 1m
Giuseppe Rossi - 8m
kieran richardson 6m - mackems
phil bardsley - 2m
ryan shawcross 1m.
pogba 800k(arf)

approx 70m

[CraigDS]

You said they haven't had a conveyor belt of players

I replied, hence me quoting him, to a Manc WUM who said "player who came through from the academy to the first team and stayed there".

You then added the part about bringing them through and selling them, which was a whole different point.

[KiNki]

like i said, if i'm talking to you, i'll quote you, what you said before or what other people said to you is irrelevant to me.   That's what happens when people don't follow conversations and pick a little snippet and run with it.

Imho they've had a conveyor belt of youth players coming into the first team supplementing the first team - which is the point of the academy. They've also done far better than we have - in selling on their fodder and supplementing their kitty.

What's changed in 6 years....nothing so far, we were behind 6 years ago and are still playing catch up in terms of utalising and getting the most out of the academy.

[rob1966]

You said they haven't had a conveyor belt of players, i contested the point that they've had a substantial number who've supplemented the squad, probably a leading club for it, sadly.  They've also done well supplementing their transfer kitty by selling the shite who can't quite make first 11.

transfer market figures for the past decade for manc players who played stiff and first team footy.

paddy mcnair - 4m sunderland - 24 appearances
tyler blackett 1.5m reading - 11 appearances
will keane 1m - 2 appearances
johnny evans 7m - west brom - 131 appearances
reece james 1m - wigan  - 0
danny welbeck - 17m arsenal - 92 appearances
michael keane - 2m - 1 appearance
richard de liat - 1m leicester - 3 appearances
john o shea - 4m sunderland - 256 appearances
wes brown - 1.2m sunderland-232 appearances
danny drinkwater - leicester 700k - 0 appearances
darren gibson - everton 500k - 31 appearances
corey evans - hull 500k
young ben foster - 6m  to birmingham - 12 appearances
frazer cambell - sunderland 3.5m
gerard pique - 4.5m - 12 appearances
chris eagles 1m
Giuseppe Rossi - 8m
kieran richardson 6m - mackems
phil bardsley - 2m
ryan shawcross 1m.
pogba 800k(arf)

approx 70m

Seeing as they bought Pogba back. they've made a £20 miilion loss 

[sminp]

Just going back to the summer of 2010:

Sergi Canos - 4.5m
Jordon Ibe - 15m
Brad Smith - 6m
Raheem Sterling - 49m
Conor Coady -0.4m
Martin Kelly - 1.5m
Jack Robinson - 1m
Suso - 1m
Jay Spearing - 1.7m
Chris Mavinga - 1m
Tom Ince - 0.25m
Daniel Ayala - 0.85m
Mikel San Jose - 2.6m
Kristian Nemeth - 1m
Lauri Dalla Valle - 0.75m
Alex Kacaniklic - 0.75m

I've excluded Ilori, Coates, Insua and Ngog as I wasn't convinced we should include them, I've also excluded a few players who went for undisclosed fees as these amounts are likely to be minimal. I'd argue Rossi should be excluded from the Manc assessment above as well (or we should include the four I mentioned above in ours).

That's £87.3m or £38.3m if you exclude Sterling (I have no idea why you'd exclude him but someone mentioned it above).

[CraigDS]

like i said, if i'm talking to you, i'll quote you

You quoted my post to someone else, you can't just ignore what we were on about and go on another tangent and not expect me to mention it.

Then have the audacity to talk about not following conversations... 

[CraigDS]

I've excluded Ilori, Coates, Insua and Ngog as I wasn't convinced we should include them, I've also excluded a few players who went for undisclosed fees as these amounts are likely to be minimal. I'd argue Rossi should be excluded from the Manc assessment above as well (or we should include the four I mentioned above in ours).

That's £87.3m or £38.3m if you exclude Sterling (I have no idea why you'd exclude him but someone mentioned it above).

There are a few on the United list I'd question too.

They bought Rossi at 17, hardly gone through their youth system. Same with Pique.

[KiNki]

You quoted my post to someone else, you can't just ignore what we were on about and go on another tangent and not expect me to mention it.

Then have the audacity to talk about not following conversations... 

Of course i can, you do it all the time, not follow conversations, taking a tidbit you disagree with and drag the whole conversation in a different direction.  It's what you excel at to be honest. 

What imput has kenny had as a boardroom member on this development of kirkby academy? 

[reddebs]

It's easier to sell on your fodder when so many of your ex players and LMA buddies are managing clubs in the same league.

[Chalky Boots]

Just going back to the summer of 2010:
*snip*

I think in the grand scheme of things we've not been any better or worse at shifting youth players when compared to them, obviously Sterling bumps up our figures significantly but if you were to extend back to around 2006 then you'd include the likes of Paul Anderson, Adam Hammill, Danny Guthrie, Mellor, Warnock and a couple of others.