Author Topic: Steven Gerrard  (Read 217587 times)

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #80 on: November 20, 2017, 07:53:31 pm »
Gerrard's in the UEFA Team of the Century  8)


Offline edge

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #81 on: November 21, 2017, 12:00:42 am »
Gerrard's in the UEFA Team of the Century  8)



Decent that.

Offline RayPhilAlan

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #82 on: November 21, 2017, 12:04:50 am »
Decent that.

I think Pique's a bit lucky to be there. Move Ramos inside and find another fullback - Dani Alves? Or maybe put Lahm on the right and play Maldini on the left?

Think I'd find a spot for Ronaldinho over Henry as well.

But Gerrard, definitely.

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #83 on: November 21, 2017, 02:17:15 am »
I think Pique's a bit lucky to be there. Move Ramos inside and find another fullback - Dani Alves? Or maybe put Lahm on the right and play Maldini on the left?

Think I'd find a spot for Ronaldinho over Henry as well.

But Gerrard, definitely.

I would def. have Alves in there, over Lahm.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #84 on: November 21, 2017, 09:26:12 am »
There's quite a few centre backs I'd have over those two. Hyypia, Ferdinand, Campbell, even England's Brave JT were all better than those two. And then you have the Italian centre backs like Nesta, Cannavaro, etc.

Dani Alves should be in at RB. Ramos as a defender shouldn't be in it but his knack of scoring vital goals is pretty useful. Not that you'd need it with Ronaldo, Gerrard and even Iniesta turning up on the big occassions.

Henry ahead of Dinho & Zidane is a bit of a joke.

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #85 on: November 21, 2017, 10:45:45 am »
There's quite a few centre backs I'd have over those two. Hyypia, Ferdinand, Campbell, even England's Brave JT were all better than those two. And then you have the Italian centre backs like Nesta, Cannavaro, etc.

Dani Alves should be in at RB. Ramos as a defender shouldn't be in it but his knack of scoring vital goals is pretty useful. Not that you'd need it with Ronaldo, Gerrard and even Iniesta turning up on the big occassions.

Henry ahead of Dinho & Zidane is a bit of a joke.

Hyypia and Campbell better than Ramos? You're joking, right?

Probably not the thread for it though.

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #86 on: November 21, 2017, 10:47:40 am »
I guess that settles the Gerrard v Scholes debate then  :)

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #87 on: November 21, 2017, 10:48:43 am »
Hyypia and Campbell better than Ramos? You're joking, right?

Nope, not at all. I see you're 25 though - I guess as a young child you weren't in a position to appreciate how good both were at their peaks. Take it from someone who watched them through adult eyes - they were both better defenders than Ramos.   :wave

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #88 on: November 21, 2017, 10:52:39 am »
Nope, not at all. I see you're 25 though - I guess as a young child you weren't in a position to appreciate how good both were at their peaks. Take it from someone who watched them through adult eyes - they were both better defenders than Ramos.   :wave

The game has changed a fair bit in the last ten to fifteen years, Hyypia in particular would never be able to cover space like Ramos can. Him and Owen were my favourite players growing up FWIW but to class him as better than Ramos is nonsense, the guy's achievements speak for itself.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #89 on: November 21, 2017, 10:54:05 am »
I guess that settles the Gerrard v Scholes debate then  :)

What debate?  :o
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #90 on: November 21, 2017, 10:59:27 am »
The game has changed a fair bit in the last ten to fifteen years, Hyypia in particular would never be able to cover space like Ramos can. Him and Owen were my favourite players growing up FWIW but to class him as better than Ramos is nonsense, the guy's achievements speak for itself.

He couldn't cover space like Ramos can. More pertinently, Ramos can't defend as well as Hyypia could.

Re: the guy's achievements, that's down to the team, not the individual.

Hyypia was a much better centre back than Ramos.

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #91 on: November 21, 2017, 11:00:19 am »
I guess that settles the Gerrard v Scholes debate then  :)

I can't believe there ever was a Gerrard v Scholes debate. Or even a Scholes v anybody debate. Since his retirement he has been elevated to levels that he never actually reached as a player. He was never as good as Stevie, or as good as Lampard, Vieira or Keane. He was a great player, there is absolutely no doubt about that. But he wasn't as good as the media and wider football fans would have you believe.

It is almost like Scholes was the best midfielder of his generation and if you think he wasn't then you don't know football. A quality passer of the ball, scored goals, played with world class players his whole career and won everything. Fair play. But as a player in terms of quality he only beat Stevie in one or two categories, in everything else Stevie was a level above.

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #92 on: November 23, 2017, 10:40:17 am »
I can't believe there ever was a Gerrard v Scholes debate. Or even a Scholes v anybody debate. Since his retirement he has been elevated to levels that he never actually reached as a player. He was never as good as Stevie, or as good as Lampard, Vieira or Keane. He was a great player, there is absolutely no doubt about that. But he wasn't as good as the media and wider football fans would have you believe.

It is almost like Scholes was the best midfielder of his generation and if you think he wasn't then you don't know football. A quality passer of the ball, scored goals, played with world class players his whole career and won everything. Fair play. But as a player in terms of quality he only beat Stevie in one or two categories, in everything else Stevie was a level above.
He was PL history’s best CM playmaker. None of the others had his skill and vision as playmakers who could control a game—though some were good at it. In fact, he is the only PL-era English midfielder I know of who was a proper cultured playmaker. The idea that Lampard was superior to Scholes is really baffling to me.

Scholes is in the same category as the above players, for sure. I don’t know whether he was superior necessarily, though.

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #93 on: November 23, 2017, 02:33:35 pm »
I think Pique's a bit lucky to be there. Move Ramos inside and find another fullback - Dani Alves? Or maybe put Lahm on the right and play Maldini on the left?

Think I'd find a spot for Ronaldinho over Henry as well.

But Gerrard, definitely.

Maybe an argument for Roberto Carlos as well? Or Cafu?

Offline Fiasco

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #94 on: November 23, 2017, 02:39:25 pm »
He was PL history’s best CM playmaker. None of the others had his skill and vision as playmakers who could control a game—though some were good at it. In fact, he is the only PL-era English midfielder I know of who was a proper cultured playmaker. The idea that Lampard was superior to Scholes is really baffling to me.

Scholes is in the same category as the above players, for sure. I don’t know whether he was superior necessarily, though.

As a technical player Lampard isn't superior but if you gave me a choice of having one of them on my team I'd pick Lampard. He's much more likely to directly influence a game with his knack of scoring and drives forward. Scholes is almost mythical these days on reflection. He was obviously a much better playmaker than Lampard and Stevie but how much is that worth? Being able to completely change a game and win a game is more important to me than controlling it. Sure, you go a long way to winning a game via that aspect of control but the most simplistic argument in this debate is the one that always wins it for me: If you put Scholes in our team in 2005 then there is zero way that we win the Champions League. If you had Gerrard in the United team instead of Scholes during their elongated period of success then not only do you likely still have the same number of honours, you probably have another European trophy or two in the cabinet. He was that good and that influential, especially on the big stage.

Scholes was a wonderful player. He wasn't as good as his retirement has made him.

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #95 on: November 23, 2017, 11:49:20 pm »
As a technical player Lampard isn't superior but if you gave me a choice of having one of them on my team I'd pick Lampard. He's much more likely to directly influence a game with his knack of scoring and drives forward. Scholes is almost mythical these days on reflection. He was obviously a much better playmaker than Lampard and Stevie but how much is that worth? Being able to completely change a game and win a game is more important to me than controlling it. Sure, you go a long way to winning a game via that aspect of control but the most simplistic argument in this debate is the one that always wins it for me: If you put Scholes in our team in 2005 then there is zero way that we win the Champions League. If you had Gerrard in the United team instead of Scholes during their elongated period of success then not only do you likely still have the same number of honours, you probably have another European trophy or two in the cabinet. He was that good and that influential, especially on the big stage.

Scholes was a wonderful player. He wasn't as good as his retirement has made him.
According to your logic, Xavi was inferior to Gerrard.

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #96 on: November 24, 2017, 04:07:53 am »
According to your logic, Xavi was inferior to Gerrard.

While he's not entirely correct in the way he stated his argument, I think what he's trying to say is that Scholes was a good, nay excellent, playmaker - but he was not Xavi good. In any case, Roy Keane was a better and more influential player than Scholes in almost every way.
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Offline Fiasco

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #97 on: November 24, 2017, 10:42:45 am »
While he's not entirely correct in the way he stated his argument

Que?!



As for my logic that Xavi was inferior to Gerrard? Inferior in what way?

Offline Dench57

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #98 on: November 24, 2017, 01:52:26 pm »
Peter Crouch has more PL assists than Scholes. He was an excellent, intelligent playmaker but he's become vastly mythologized since his retirement. Stevie won games on his own.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #99 on: November 24, 2017, 02:26:34 pm »
According to your logic, Xavi was inferior to Gerrard.

And?
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #100 on: November 24, 2017, 03:33:19 pm »
He was an excellent, intelligent playmaker but he's become vastly mythologized since his retirement. Stevie won games on his own.

People always say that story about Scholes. Ronaldo was training and trying to hit a target, Scholes came over, picked up a ball, pointed at a tree in the distance and went "watch this". He then ran over and had a shit behind it.

Something like that
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Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #101 on: November 24, 2017, 04:45:27 pm »
And?
You seriously are going to argue that Gerrard was a better midfielder than Xavi?

Offline Samie

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #102 on: November 24, 2017, 04:46:59 pm »
Yes... so back to Lobo's question AND?

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #103 on: November 24, 2017, 04:47:42 pm »
As for my logic that Xavi was inferior to Gerrard? Inferior in what way?
An inferior player to have in your team, in that he controlled games as a playmaker and was not the one 'winning them', whatever that means.

It makes no real sense to me anyway, since controlling a game surely has a great deal to do with winning it...

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #104 on: November 24, 2017, 04:48:58 pm »
You seriously are going to argue that Gerrard was a better midfielder than Xavi?

Am I personally? Christ no mate, not got the inclination for that on a Friday evening :)
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #105 on: November 24, 2017, 04:49:45 pm »
Am I personally? Christ no mate, not got the inclination for that on a Friday evening :)
I didn't think so.  :)

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #106 on: November 24, 2017, 04:50:23 pm »
I didn't think so.  :)

But he was, and probably still is  :thumbup

And I wouldn't be MASSIVELY surprised that people on a Liverpool forum might hold that opinion
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #107 on: November 27, 2017, 02:09:32 pm »
You seriously are going to argue that Gerrard was a better midfielder than Xavi?

I'd argue that Stevie wasn't a million miles off Xavi.  Further to that I'd say Stevie would be miles better than Xavi in every other position of the pitch and for that reason if I were picking an 11 his name would always be higher up.

Was it Zidane that once described Gerrard as the best all round player he had ever seen?  In his pomp there was no role or position he couldn't do brilliantly in. 

He was a fantastic wingback, a brilliant winger, a world class playmaker.  He could do box to box, he could be one of the top 2 pairing.  He ended his career doing a fine Pirlo impression at the base of midfield.

The sad fact is England never got to see him at his best because his sheer adaptiveness allowed them to use him to accommodate lesser players in positions they felt comfortable.

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #108 on: November 27, 2017, 03:51:26 pm »
Xavi would be better for Barcelona than Gerrard ever would. I'd also argue Gerrard would be better for most other teams who don't play in that way too.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #109 on: November 27, 2017, 03:55:48 pm »
You seriously are going to argue that Gerrard was a better midfielder than Xavi?

They weren't that far away from each other. Gerrard was a better goalscorer, Xavi a better creator, and there wasn't much between them either way. So in the sense that the central or attacking mid's job is to score goals and create goals, they were on the same level in terms of position, although Xavi had better technique, while Gerrard had better athleticism.
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Offline zabadoh

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #110 on: November 27, 2017, 10:34:57 pm »
Gerrard on the right  ;)
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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #111 on: November 27, 2017, 10:39:18 pm »
As a young footballer who looked up to Djimi Traore, I'm saddened to see that he didn't make the shortlist.
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Offline SwordInYourGut

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #112 on: November 28, 2017, 03:34:27 am »
Its interesting that people classify Lampard as a midfielder at all honestly. I always viewed him more as a second striker than a midfielder.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #113 on: November 28, 2017, 03:55:34 am »
Its interesting that people classify Lampard as a midfielder at all honestly. I always viewed him more as a second striker than a midfielder.

You're actually probably right - he really was only a nominal midfielder. He was more like a Peter Beardsley in his positioning for Chelsea. But with less skill, and better looks.
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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #114 on: November 28, 2017, 06:21:32 am »
They weren't that far away from each other. Gerrard was a better goalscorer, Xavi a better creator, and there wasn't much between them either way. So in the sense that the central or attacking mid's job is to score goals and create goals, they were on the same level in terms of position, although Xavi had better technique, while Gerrard had better athleticism.

It's a very specific skill, but Xavi was much, much better at controlling the tempo and rhythm of play. At his peak, he was a million miles from the late version of Gerrard who played at the base of midfield (but then that wasn't Gerrard at his peak - but then Gerrard never really played there during his peak...).

Gerrard would be better in almost every other way and every other position though. But if one of your midfielder needs to control the game from the base of midfield, Gerrard wouldn't get a look in for a Premier League all time XI, nevermind an all time great XI.

Now if you were looking for other midfield positions then Gerrard is a shoe in for the Premier League all time XI and definitely a contender for the all time great XI.

Ultimately, for an all time great XI, he'd be one of the best squad players you could ask for because he could cover everything from the wings to split striker to defensive mid to central mid to wing back, positions he's played for his club and country to a very high level.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #115 on: November 28, 2017, 12:56:59 pm »
It's a very specific skill, but Xavi was much, much better at controlling the tempo and rhythm of play. At his peak, he was a million miles from the late version of Gerrard who played at the base of midfield (but then that wasn't Gerrard at his peak - but then Gerrard never really played there during his peak...).

Gerrard would be better in almost every other way and every other position though. But if one of your midfielder needs to control the game from the base of midfield, Gerrard wouldn't get a look in for a Premier League all time XI, nevermind an all time great XI.

Now if you were looking for other midfield positions then Gerrard is a shoe in for the Premier League all time XI and definitely a contender for the all time great XI.

Ultimately, for an all time great XI, he'd be one of the best squad players you could ask for because he could cover everything from the wings to split striker to defensive mid to central mid to wing back, positions he's played for his club and country to a very high level.

If one of your CMs need to control the game from the base of midfield, then you choose someone else to go with Stevie :)
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #116 on: November 28, 2017, 01:14:00 pm »
In his autobiography (see attached excerpt) Stevie's pretty unequivocal that he thinks Xavi was better than him, or at least his ghostwriter thinks that and Stevie hasn't bothered reading it.

I don't think it's as clear cut though. When he had a team built around him playing the exact specific style that suited him and surrounding him with the very best players in the world who also happened to be suited to that exact specific style, then Xavi was absolutely magnificent. When he wasn't playing in that extremely specialized environment then he was, well, the Xavi of 1998 - 2007. A very good player who wasn't even coming close to setting the world alight and not considered one of the best players in his own team.

It's hard to think of another player in football history who had as much advantage as Xavi in having both the team built exactly to fit his style and also having that level of elite player alongside him to allow him to fulfill his potential.

Stevie didn't have any of that. As others have alluded to, in the 'Xavi role' in a tika taka team, Xavi was undoubtedly better than Stevie would have been. Every other position in the pitch or in a team not playing tika taka, then Stevie was far superior.

Offline bornandbRED

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #117 on: November 28, 2017, 08:49:30 pm »
When Gerrard was in his pomp in the mid 2000s there was no Gerrard/Scholes debate. Or Scholes/Lampard. In fact, Scholes was rarely mentioned as one of the premier midfielders in Europe. There were times in the early 2000s where Ferguson opted for Butt over him. So I have absolutely no idea where and why the recent Scholes jizz fest began. Speaking to some Man Utd fans you'd think he's the second coming of Jesus.

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #118 on: November 29, 2017, 09:15:49 am »
If one of your CMs need to control the game from the base of midfield, then you choose someone else to go with Stevie :)

That's literally almost exactly my next sentence in that post you quoted...
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #119 on: November 29, 2017, 05:04:40 pm »
That's literally almost exactly my next sentence in that post you quoted...

No it’s not

You said if one of your midfielders needs to control, then Stevie doesn’t get in. But he would, because you have one controlling with Stevie in the other spot

Simple
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.