Topic: FSG discussion thread

[Avens]

If we continue to stockpile players who predominately play in a similar area because they are easy to sign whilst ignoring more pressing needs then Yes it will be their fault. For me Diaz, Carvalho, Gakpo and Mac Allister if we get him are all very attacking players who can play from the left or centrally. All four players are clearly talented and were all 'value' signings that were easy to do either because of buyouts, the selling club needing money desperately or in the case of Carvalho the ability to go to a tribunal.

All four signings individually make sense but as a collective, we have over recruited in certain areas and failed to recruit in others.

For me, success or failure will depend on whether we address a lack of pace, power and defensive nous in midfield and fail to bring in another centre back. I just hope we don't repeat the mistake of bringing in Gakpo because he was an easy deal to do, whilst ignoring the glaring deficiencies in midfield.

*all together now* Yes Al, but that wasn't my point. My point was that you'll blame them if it goes wrong but won't credit them if it goes right. That's fine, it's your call, but it's why it is literally impossible to have a sensible discussion with you about their ownership. 

[meady1981]

Have they sold up yet

[LifelongRed, Sussex]

Haha you are supposed to post the mac red heat map that he posted 100 times in the transfer thread.

How funny 

A post at 6:49pm yesterday brought Mac into this FSG discussion, likening his particular attributes to our attacking players such Gakpo and Diaz.

[TepidT2O]

Oh my days…

Are we complaining about singing a player the manager clearly wants and blaming the owners?

I’ve been going to matches since I for 3 decades. If, at any point in that time you’d told me that we were signing  an Argentinian midfielder who had starred at and won the World Cup six months previously, I’d have been made up!

[GinKop]

Oh my days…

Are we complaining about singing a player the manager clearly wants and blaming the owners?

I’ve been going to matches since I for 3 decades. If, at any point in that time you’d told me that we were signing  an Argentinian midfielder who had starred at and won the World Cup six months previously, I’d have been made up!

....+ had already proven themselves in the Premier League - some people are going to complain no matter what.

Mac Allister is versatile enough to play a key role in our system. On paper, this is an outstanding deal whichever way you look at it.

[Draex]

Oh my days…

Are we complaining about singing a player the manager clearly wants and blaming the owners?

I’ve been going to matches since I for 3 decades. If, at any point in that time you’d told me that we were signing  an Argentinian midfielder who had starred at and won the World Cup six months previously, I’d have been made up!

I think some would prefer we overpaid like Utd to show how ambitious we were… personally love being smart and savvy in the market and very glad we seem to have corrected our course back to that.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

For me Diaz, Carvalho, Gakpo and Mac Allister if we get him are all very attacking players who can play from the left or centrally.

To steal a line from Jack, tell me you haven't seen Mac Allister play without telling me you haven't seen Mac Allister play.

[ScottScott]

People are going to be unhappy it's only a £35m fee for Mac. Nowhere near expensive enough for him to have an impact and will massively hurt our net sales target for the summer too

Well done John, best owners in football proving it again

[Aldo1988]

People are going to be unhappy it's only a £35m fee for Mac. Nowhere near expensive enough for him to have an impact and will massively hurt our net sales target for the summer too

Well done John, best owners in football proving it again

Come on, you know it's all down to Jurgen when good things happen.  I do forget though, are the transfer team and big Jorg FSG or are they the good guys as well?

[Coolie High]

Come on, you know it's all down to Jurgen when good things happen.  I do forget though, are the transfer team and big Jorg FSG or are they the good guys as well?

The fact you're replying to a troll post seriously is funny.

[jillcwhomever]

Have they sold up yet

Whose coming in then?

[Aldo1988]

The fact you're replying to a troll post seriously is funny.

I know that he's taking the piss, that is quite obvious.

[classycarra]

It's less obvious, but I think he's trying to be humorous too!

[ScottScott]

It's less obvious, but I think he's trying to be humorous too!

Hey, no need for that! I've got feelings as well!

[Aldo1988]

Hey, no need for that! I've got feelings as well!

Yeah, feelings for John Henry and FSG.

[Eeyore]

How funny 

A post at 6:49pm yesterday brought Mac into this FSG discussion, likening his particular attributes to our attacking players such Gakpo and Diaz.

Except I didn't I said like Gakpo the Mac deal needs to be backed up with additions in the areas we really need strengthening.

Gakpo was recruited for a position we were already strong in. Mac is the same we already have players who can play his role.

Like Gakpo he is a nice addition but we need to add pace and power to the midfield

[Aldo1988]

Except I didn't I said like Gakpo the Mac deal needs to be backed up with additions in the areas we really need strengthening.

Gakpo was recruited for a position we were already strong in. Mac is the same we already have players who can play his role.

Like Gakpo he is a nice addition but we need to add pace and power to the midfield

Gakpo was brought in as a Bobby replacement, think we got him early as other teams were sniffing around him.

[Black Bull Nova]

4 MacAlisters or 1 Bellingham


I'll take 4 please

[number 168]

"Like Gakpo he is a nice addition but we need to add pace and power to the midfield".
I think we are all agreed on that, but the season's not long finished and the window isn't even open yet. Let's see what happens.

[Eeyore]

Mac Allister’s totally different to the others.

How do I know this?  I watched him live for three seasons. He’s box to box allrounder with excellent defensive attributes.  Aside from my take, his positional heat maps online are very similar to Wijnaldum’s 2019/20 for example.

The problem with that though is Gini played the controller role. I agree completely that Mac could play that role. The problem is that the midfield controller role doesn't exist anymore unless we abandon Trent as an inverted full-back.

When Trent tucks in as an auxiliary 6 he becomes the controller. The player who gets on the ball and controls the tempo. Generally keeps it simple, makes the most passes and keeps us ticking over. His range of passing means he becomes a controller+.

That leaves us with a LCM and a RCM who play much higher and take up the kind of positions that DeBruyne and Gundogan do for City. In that system then for me there is no way Mac takes up the 6 role, using City as an example the Rodri role.

That means he either plays LCM where we have a lot of options or the RCM where for me we need a more powerful energetic player because of the lack of defensive responsibility we give to Mo, plus the need to cover Trent when he goes inside.

So for me Mac Allister is like Gakpo a useful addition but for the system to work we need another centre back with pace and power for when Ibou is unavailable plus more pace and power in the 6 and RCM roles. So for me we need to wait and judge the window as a whole dependent on whether we add those players or not.

[Passmaster Molby]

The problem with that though is Gini played the controller role. I agree completely that Mac could play that role. The problem is that the midfield controller role doesn't exist anymore unless we abandon Trent as an inverted full-back.

When Trent tucks in as an auxiliary 6 he becomes the controller. The player who gets on the ball and controls the tempo. Generally keeps it simple, makes the most passes and keeps us ticking over. His range of passing means he becomes a controller+.

That leaves us with a LCM and a RCM who play much higher and take up the kind of positions that DeBruyne and Gundogan do for City. In that system then for me there is no way Mac takes up the 6 role, using City as an example the Rodri role.

That means he either plays LCM where we have a lot of options or the RCM where for me we need a more powerful energetic player because of the lack of defensive responsibility we give to Mo, plus the need to cover Trent when he goes inside.

So for me Mac Allister is like Gakpo a useful addition but for the system to work we need another centre back with pace and power for when Ibou is unavailable plus more pace and power in the 6 and RCM roles. So for me we need to wait and judge the window as a whole dependent on whether we add those players or not.

At the end of the day it’s irrelevant what you think of the transfer window, it’s what Jurgen thinks as he is the one managing the squad. As long as he says he is pleased with his squad that’s all that matters, regardless of what you, me or anyone else on this forum thinks.

[Eeyore]

At the end of the day it’s irrelevant what you think of the transfer window, it’s what Jurgen thinks as he is the one managing the squad. As long as he says he is pleased with his squad that’s all that matters, regardless of what you, me or anyone else on this forum thinks.

No, what is relevant is that we don't have a 20/21 season or a 22/23 season. That is a season sabotaged by a lack of investment in a crucial area.

[keyop]

Yep I wasn't interested in that person's hyperbolic venting. By the way I didn't trawl, I have a bizarrely good memory for random unimportant stuff so searched two words "net spend" and your post was the seond one there.

I wasn't trying to distract from anything. I was just continuing a conversation about our owners (and point out the role our biases play), and trying to point out that you might have been projecting a little in parts of that attack on Al the other day. All I can say is that's how it read to me (and others) earlier in the year and yesterday. so what you're saying is, you secretly want us to be sportswashed?
(I kid I kid, you can't have all the fun throwing this accusation!)I don't disagree with your point on yardsticks here - their biggest achievement was breaking out of the new stadium narrative, and getting redevelopment moving - but I will play devil's advocate.

I remember another time when I said I struggled to relate to you - instead of it being about framing money spent to pretend Klopp has had huge resources like yesterday, it was about you framing FSG as "winning us the CL and PL". Did you ever refer to 2005 as being 'won by' David Moores? Or the 2001 treble, did he 'bring us that'? Or is it only in this recent era that under FSG ownership (perhaps as a rote response to posts critiquing FSG) that you've started to think in those terms?

This was what LFC won in his 16 years, for what it's worth:
1 CL, 1 UEFA/Europa Cup, 3 FA Cups, 3 League Cups, 1 Super Cup, 2 Charity Shields

Last point, but I note you saying we're in a great place for future generations, and not being under massive debt.
LFC debt under David Moores (at point of sale): £45mil
LFC debt under FSG (latest accounts): £146mil net*

*£71.4mil to FSG, £88mil to other debtors. So that's about £160mil debt (but this is only gross! It goes down about £14mil when including assets)

It's really hard to take you seriously on any thread when your posts have zero context, and when you say stuff like this:

Don't think I'll ever grasp the motivation to opt to present information in a way that tries to admonish our venture capitalist billionaire owners, while tarnishing the resourcefulness of our legendary manager

Part of it is people being a bit puritanical, and part is trying to position the club as being small overachievers because we have to compete with cheats (whereas almost any other club in the world would laugh at LFC being considered plucky underdogs)

Whisper it, but there's for sure been some of the venturecapitalistwashing phenomenon on show on RAWK in recent years, mixed with a little stockholm syndrome to our captors/custodians. People are so used to (almost Pavlovian) disagreement with Al that they've ended up becoming so conditioned to naturally defending and sympathising more with the poor plucky venture capitalist organisation and the loveable billionaires who run LFC than they do with parts of Shanks' 'Holy Trinity'

For whatever reason, you aren't engaging on the topic of the thread (or your post topic, which was speculatively attempting to blame the club being run like a "shitshow" on Klopp and fully absolving FSG of any involvement definitively/as fact). Seems like you're deflecting.

I wouldn't worry too much, you won't make a dent - their support of FSG is zealously bulletproof, even if their desire for facts is a little inconsistent.

Suareznumber7 works extremely hard to always find an interpretation that places greater credit (when good) or lesser blame (when bad) on FSG at the expense of Klopp and the footballing side of the FSG/LFC equation.

Last point, but I note you saying we're in a great place for future generations, and not being under massive debt.
LFC debt under David Moores (at point of sale): £45mil
LFC debt under FSG (latest accounts): £146mil net*

'Small overachievers', 'Venturecapitalistwashers', 'Stockholm Syndrome' to our 'captors', 'Pavlovian disagreements', 'Blaming the club being run like a shithow on Klopp', 'Support of FSG being 'zealously bulletproof'.

What on earth are you on about 

You're reaching Al levels of nonsense and hyperbole now (which is quite the achievement given the low bar that's been set for more than a decade). You're picking arguments with multiple posters on different threads, and making some pretty wild accusations about their allegiances.

It's quite the insult to suggest that anyone who thinks we're being run sensibly is tarnishing Jurgen. I doubt there's a single poster on here that doesn't love him for who he is, and for what he's done for us.

Considering your username, that's a pretty classless way to speak to fellow fans about their support for our manager.

Comparing our current debts to the debt levels under Moores is one of the funniest things I've read on here (did you let Al have your login?). It's a comparison entitely free of any context - you know, things like different eras, different financial landscape, different transfer fees, higher wages, extending contracts, keeping pur best players, competing with cheats, expanding the stadium, transforming  the area around Anfield for fans, and building a new training ground. Oh, and a global pandemic (or were you asleep for 2 years). Using lower debt under Moores as a stick to beat our current owners with is just hilarious, but then nothing on this thread surprises me anymore.

At least it's serving the purpose I created it for - containing many of the money-obsessed mood hoovers in one place, whilst preventing other threads from getting regularly hijacked and locked, and keeping many of the debates elsewhere more reasoned (except the transfer thread...).

[classycarra]

Keyop mate you seem to have gone off the deep end. You don't seem to have any arguments about the points, so instead try to reframe things in your own (incorrect words) like you're in PR. Plus ad hominems 

Thanks for at least providing the links to my posts that - when reading alongside what they're responding to - demonstrate that a few posters on here hold biases that don't seem to be able to handle other people having discussion on the club's ownership very well without a compulsion to twists things to look more favourable for FSG..

making some pretty wild accusations about their allegiances.

It's quite the insult to suggest that anyone who thinks we're being run sensibly is tarnishing Jurgen. I doubt there's a single poster on here that doesn't love him for who he is, and for what he's done for us.

Firstly, your pearl clutching hyperbole here is hilarious given you think I've been hyperbolic. Secondly you've just made those things up (given you seem to have taken some time to trawl through my posts, and curated an exhibition of them, the fact you haven't found a single quote from me supporting this accusation probably proves it)

Comparing our current debts to the debt levels under Moores is one of the funniest things I've read on here... SNIP...Using lower debt under Moores as a stick to beat our current owners with is just hilarious, but then nothing on this thread surprises me anymore.

I'm not clear why this has upset you so much? You've read far too much into an off the cuff comment when you mentioned there's not much debt on the club (but it's over 3 times as much as it was in 2010). It wasn't deep, and it wasn't "a stick to beat our owner' (although why you're so precious about having their record compared to Moores' is beyond me).

At least it's serving the purpose I created it for - containing many of the money-obsessed mood hoovers in one place, whilst preventing other threads from getting regularly hijacked and locked, and keeping many of the debates elsewhere more reasoned (except the transfer thread...).

Mate, come on now, surely even you can now see that you're projecting here!

You waded into the transfer thread yesterday while everyone was excited about the Mac Allister transfer with a post about money! And then used it to grind your axe and have an argument with "some posters" (again, you couldn't find any relevant quotes) about things that nobody had said, to try to 'hoover' the mood as you put it.

[keyop]

Keyop mate you seem to have gone off the deep end. You don't seem to have any arguments about the points, so instead try to reframe things in your own (incorrect words) like you're in PR. Plus ad hominems 

Thanks for at least providing the links to my posts that - when reading alongside what they're responding to - demonstrate that a few posters on here hold biases that don't seem to be able to handle other people having discussion on the club's ownership very well without a compulsion to twists things to look more favourable for FSG.. Firstly, your pearl clutching hyperbole here is hilarious given you think I've been hyperbolic. Secondly you've just made those things up (given you seem to have taken some time to trawl through my posts, and curated an exhibition of them, the fact you haven't found a single quote from me supporting this accusation probably proves it)I'm not clear why this has upset you so much? You've read far too much into an off the cuff comment when you mentioned there's not much debt on the club (but it's over 3 times as much as it was in 2010). It wasn't deep, and it wasn't "a stick to beat our owner' (although why you're so precious about having their record compared to Moores' is beyond me).Mate, come on now, surely even you can now see that you're projecting here!

You waded into the transfer thread yesterday while everyone was excited about the Mac Allister transfer with a post about money! And then used it to grind your axe and have an argument with "some posters" (again, you couldn't find any relevant quotes) about things that nobody had said, to try to 'hoover' the mood as you put it.

As I said - you're reaching Al levels of deflection and revisionism now, which you've just confirmed in your reply.

As for all your comments about other fans allegiances to Jurgen - totally classless and completely unwarranted.

[classycarra]

As I said - you're reaching Al levels of deflection and revisionism now, which you've just confirmed in your reply.

What are you even trying to get at, at this point? Deflecting/revising what? (I don't care, and am about to go on holiday, so take this rhetorically)

As for all your comments about other fans allegiances to Jurgen - totally classless and completely unwarranted.

Again, there's been no questioning of allegiance, despite your effort to spin. Those posts are about the way people's biases make them frame their points in a way that was less favourable to the football side of the club than to the owners side - not about allegiance.

But, since you're continuing the ad hominem attacks on me, I'll check out now but leave you with this comment questioning fans allegiances - in a 'classless and unwarranted' manner (well put)

It's just an utterly bizarre way to support a football club when there is (and has been) so much to enjoy along the way.

You come across as a glass half-empty person (perhaps completely empty), which is fine in isolation. But you don't even come across as an actual fan of football, or even seem to enjoy the good times. It makes me wonder why people like you even follow a club when all you seem to do is whine endlessly, find fault with everything, and stick the boot into all the players (or people) at the club that you don't like (usually the ones that didn't put us at the top of your European net spend league).

[FLRed67]

Hello everyone!

Given Barcelona’s press release yesterday, does anyone know if LFC owners or club officers are going to issue a press release to announce the non-arrival of Bellingham?

Does the statement have to focus on one non-arrival only, or can the club take the opportunity to announce that Gavi, Tchewmany, Vini Jr, Mbappe and Nabil Fekir are also not signing for the club?

I wonder .   .    do you think it’s too late to ask Hicks and Gillette to officially announce that David Silva, David Villa and Dani Alves are not coming to LFC either?

I just feel it would bring closure, and heal some of the hurt and confusion.

[emitime]

Hello everyone!

Given Barcelona’s press release yesterday, does anyone know if LFC owners or club officers are going to issue a press release to announce the non-arrival of Bellingham?

Does the statement have to focus on one non-arrival only, or can the club take the opportunity to announce that Gavi, Tchewmany, Vini Jr, Mbappe and Nabil Fekir are also not signing for the club?

I wonder .   .    do you think it’s too late to ask Hicks and Gillette to officially announce that David Silva, David Villa and Dani Alves are not coming to LFC either?

I just feel it would bring closure, and heal some of the hurt and confusion.

Richard Lawson Martindale Snr has some serious questions to answer about Dixie Dean.

[keyop]

What are you even trying to get at, at this point? Deflecting/revising what? (I don't care, and am about to go on holiday, so take this rhetorically)
Again, there's been no questioning of allegiance, despite your effort to spin. Those posts are about the way people's biases make them frame their points in a way that was less favourable to the football side of the club than to the owners side - not about allegiance.

But, since you're continuing the ad hominem attacks on me, I'll check out now but leave you with this comment questioning fans allegiances - in a 'classless and unwarranted' manner (well put)

If my posts bother you (which they clearly do), then just put me on ignore, and I'll do the same in return.

Then you won't have to listen to my ramblings about perspective, enjoying the ride, being happy with what we've achieved, how toxic the game (and the fans) are becoming with the obession over spending, and how comparing ourselves to other clubs (with zero context whatsoever) is a totally pointless venture.

I'll also then not have to listen to your (often incoherent) ramblings, which always lack any context or perspective. You accuse me of going off the deep end, after you've posted stuff about Stockholm Syndrome to our 'captors', Pavlovian disagreements, capitalistventurewashing, small overachievers, blaming the club being run like a shithow on Klopp, or the support of FSG being 'zealously bulletproof'. Or about how we're more in debt now under FSG than our previous owners (like almost every other top club in Europe...?), or your habit of regularly questionning other people's allegiances to Jurgen (not classy, Cara)

However, feel free to continue your arguments with anyone else who's simply enjoying the ride like me, and who doesn't feel that spend, spend, spend is the solution for LFC (or for football in general). I don't have the time or the inclination to debate with anyone who continually fires digs at other Liverpool fans about their support for the manager - which is utter nonsense, and is also unnecessarily provocative and divisive 

[DelTrotter]

Then you won't have to listen to my ramblings about perspective, enjoying the ride, being happy with what we've achieved

Hopefully being so happy is reflected in your posts soon and we some different content to constantly attacking Al and other posters. Excited to see the new you!

[classycarra]

If my posts bother you (which they clearly do), then just put me on ignore, and I'll do the same in return.

I'm not bothered, and prefer to find differing views rather than wanting conformity and everyone to behave and support the team identically.

Let me explain why I've replied to a handful of your posts recently. You made that abusive post to Al, questioning not just the way he supports his team but also the way he lives his life (and then days later you accuse me of questioning allegiances, by deliberately misrepresenting posts). 

It's not for the first time that you made it really personal with Al, because he doesn't fall in line with the way you want people to post/support the team. Al'll tell you, I'm no sycophant (looking only for people I agree with) - me and him share all manner of healthy disagreements over the years - what I don't care for, and what's motivated my replies to you, is when people dish out behaviour that they can't take. Whether it's online or at the pub, it'll always be something that sticks out for me.

I've offered you the mildest amount of (accurately represented) scrutiny about the logical inconsistencies of a couple of points you've made when trying to angle your 'evidence' to your pre-conceived biases - and you've thrown your toys out of the pram with unfounded made-up spin to try to discredit me (instead of broaching the points about your projection or the way you frame positive/negative LFC news)

You've written out another mini essay of the same barbs, grinding the exact same ax, as you've done dozens of times. Days after telling Al he's gonna get through five keyboards this summer typing out repeat arguments. You just don't seem to me great at noticing that the accusations you're lashing out at others, in your manner of toxic positivity (as opposed to 'enjoying the ride', as you like to suggest), all apply to you

[Ratboy3G]

'Only' paid £35m for MacAllister, bloody cheapskates.

FSG OUT!!!

[newterp]

'Only' paid £35m for MacAllister, bloody cheapskates.

FSG OUT!!!

we already had this faux-angst yesterday. go be angry on your own time!

[Ratboy3G]

we already had this faux-angst yesterday. go be angry on your own time!

Ha ha, sorry it was meant to be tongue in cheek

[newterp]

Ha ha, sorry it was meant to be tongue in cheek

lol - I know! the others that posted this were also joking around (I hope...haha)

[19th Nervous Title]

It's gonna be a long hot summer.

[keyop]

Hopefully being so happy is reflected in your posts soon and we some different content to constantly attacking Al and other posters. Excited to see the new you!

What are you expecting when the thread is littered with so many people acting like 'A child wanting a Ferrari for Christmas' (Jurgen's words, not mine). Feel free to read my other posts about our players, Jurgen, the Klopp template, Man City, Arsenal, Messi, and my ramblings on many other topics. Judging my post history or disposition from this thread alone is pointless - when my views on this topic are perfectly clear in my OP.

As for 'constantly attacking Al', are you kidding? - the poster that runs through every thread he possibly can - arguing with everyone and anyone with a big target on his back, provoking reactions and arguments at every turn.

If you read my post history, I'm optimistic about the players, the manager, and the club. I'm less optimistic about the state of the game, or teams like City or PSG, or the endless obsession with money. If I'm not allowed to comment on other's views, then we might as well close the whole site.

It's not negativity when your motives are positive (there's a big difference...). I'm happy with the way the club is run and with our players and trophies, and all the fun we've had under Jurgen. What I'm not happy with is the toxic discussions around money on here and on other threads (and in football in general), which is why I'll post my views if I feel the need to (you don't have to read them  ).

[Eeyore]

'Only' paid £35m for MacAllister, bloody cheapskates.

FSG OUT!!!

The owners and the recruitment team have done really well to get Mac Allister for that kind of fee. Hopefully, we can bring in players to compliment him and address the weaker areas of the squad.

[Samie]

They have bought back Melwood for the Women's team and Women's Academy for £13m.

[newterp]

They have bought back Melwood for the Women's team and Women's Academy for £13m.

and there goes any hope for Bellingham.