Topic: Chasing the Title

[Barneylfc∗]

I am saying Emery has shown better promise in Europe than Ferguson did in all his career.

Just to be clear, you think Emery, who has won the Europa League 3 times, and done fuck all in the Champions League, has shown better promise than Ferguson, who has won the Champions League twice, lost in the final twice to arguably the best club side in history, the semi finals 3 times, won the Cup Winners Cup in 1991 with United and also in 1983 with Aberdeen.

You're honestly saying you think Emery has shown he is capable of that?

[v2krules]

Just to be clear, you think Emery, who has won the Europa League 3 times, and done fuck all in the Champions League, has shown better promise than Ferguson, who has won the Champions League twice, lost in the final twice to arguably the best club side in history, the semi finals 3 times, won the Cup Winners Cup in 1991 with United and also in 1983 with Aberdeen.

You're honestly saying you think Emery has shown he is capable of that?

Yes. He is! As a manager what Emery did with that Sevilla team in Europe looks easily more promising than what Sir Alex managed in his 20 years CL Career with a PL dominating United team. Yes I do think he has is tactically better and more flexible than Sir Alex and it will show in Europe and his relative dominance by the end of his career is in a trajectory to  outrank Sir Alex especially in this metric - Champion teams playing bang average in Europe.And so will many other manager's who may not even grace his total PL titles, but will have a far superior European record, simply because Sir Alex (much like Wenger) was good at one thing mainly - Good at Crushing Smaller teams(winning PL).

And people here talking about losing the 2 finals against Pep-Messi Barcelona as some kind of foregone conclusion, in itself reflects poorly on him, more so when people keep saying Pep's Barcelona was better than Sir ALex squad. That United squad had enough quality to hurt Barcelona under any other manager,  but got dominated every which way (owned literally) due to his tactical ineptitude. Chelsea fared way better against that Unbeatable Barca team than Sir ALex's United albeit with a relatively poorer squad than United in my opinion.

Even for arguments sake if we ignore the 2 finals and consider them a hard lose for Sir Alex, his tactical naivety has been found 100,000 times prior in the 15 odd years to the 2 finals he reached against Barcelona, where United had a way better team than many others and still flunked in Europe.

If you read the other posts, without nitpicking Emery/Benitez > Sir Alex
The highlight take -
1. Winning PL does not show a manager's or a team's superior quality to other good teams in Europe. Winning CL is the true reflection of a teams quality and is therefore more valuable in my opinion. Prime Example: Sir Alex/Wenger.

2. Sir Alex was tactically naive compared to other greats in the game  - Paisley, Ancelotti, Sacchi, Del Bosque, Mourinho. This is reflected in his poor European record.

3. Managers like Benitez and Emery have shown more tactical nous  and intelligence in their relatively short careers in Europe than Sir Alex managed in his 20 odd years.

Let me know if you agree or disagree. Please do it with valid points that will help the argument instead of stating
Bad Post- Must be mad - Crazy etc.. etc..

[Uncle Ronnie]

Astonishingly, this is quite possibly the worst collection of posts on a single page in RAWK’s history.

[Wullie160975]

I'll bite a little. What's the excuse for Emery at PSG with Neymar, Mbappe, Cavani, Veratti et al?

[Barneylfc∗]

Anyway, this is about Liverpool winning the league, not the ins and outs of Ferguson in Europe. Fuck that shit off elsewhere.

[AmanShah21]

I dont like Whiskey-Nose one bit, but credit where its due, he is the most dominant manager in the Premier League era. Its naive to compare Emery or Benitez to him, however biased your opinions are. His teams were relentless and they challenged for every single trophy year in year out for over 2 decades. It'll take decades for another to match his consistency and achievements. Rafa has/had the attributes, but he's never quite had the backing to do it, and until he does, it's bollocks to say he is better than Fergie.

1. Winning PL does not show a manager's or a team's superior quality to other good teams in Europe. Winning CL is the true reflection of a teams quality and is there for more valuable in my opinion. Prime Exmaple: Sir Alex/Wenger.

That's just utter tripe. The PL reflects the overall quality of your squad much better than the UCL.

2. Sir Alex was tactically naive compared to other greats in the game  - Paisley, Ancelotti, Sacchi, Del Bosque, Mourinho. This is reflected in his poor European record.

He's got 2 Champions League medal - same as Sacchi, Del Bosque and Mourinho. Also lost a couple more finals to Pep's Barcelona. Had 4 more SF eliminations. His record in europe is decent. He was never the best in Europe, but he's still a great on that stage, however much it hurts me to say it.

3. Managers like Benitez and Emery have shown more tactical nous  and intelligence than Sir Alex in their relatively short careers in Europe than Sir Alex managed in his 20 odd years.

Neither has achieved anything close to him. Benitez atleast has got consistency in Europe at the highest level to show for, but Emery doesn't yet exist on the same plane.


Now, since none of this matters to the topic at hand, lets go back to talking about the title, because FFS, we are in the mix for it at the fag end of the season after 5 years, and thats actually worth talking about.

Now I need to go take a shower after having to defend that scum.

[RyanBabel19]

Anyway, this is about Liverpool winning the league, not the ins and outs of Ferguson in Europe. Fuck that shit off elsewhere.

You are spot on mate but some posts just draw a reaction from you. Its one of the most insane comments i've ever seen regarding football

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I am sorry but those points is something the Bitters would say about us. Shocking stuff

[v2krules]

2. Sir Alex was tactically naive compared to other greats in the game  - Paisley, Ancelotti, Sacchi, Del Bosque, Mourinho. This is reflected in his poor European record.

He's got 2 Champions League medal - same as Sacchi, Del Bosque and Mourinho. Also lost a couple more finals to Pep's Barcelona. Had 4 more SF eliminations. His record in europe is decent. He was never the best in Europe, but he's still a great on that stage, however much it hurts me to say it.

Another 100 years he will manage 2 more. "He is decent in Europe" - Overrated the proper word. Doesn't matter talking about Fergie, Benitez or Emery, people see what they want to see.

Coming back to the thread

1. Winning PL does not show a manager's or a team's superior quality to other good teams in Europe. Winning CL is the true reflection of a teams quality and is there for more valuable in my opinion. Prime Exmaple: Sir Alex/Wenger.

That's just utter tripe. The PL reflects the overall quality of your squad much better than the UCL.

I have already shared my opinion in prior posts.

PL is generally won by teams that consistently perform well against smaller teams. Any big spending team with a quality squad depth with an attacking manager has a very good chance of winning the PL. You can win the PL even if you are not necessarily the best team nor beat the best teams. You have to have the best squad (to manage the marathon) and crush the smaller teams.

CL is won by best team with the best squad with tactically the best managers who have to win against the best teams with equally best squads and best managers across Europe.

Easy to see why CL is more prestigious and harder to win than PL.

The only difference between the two, is the relative margin of error being very low in CL making it all the more difficult that teams have to be near perfect to win it. Some call these luck.

But the PL is  definitive thing more often. The margin of error is big. The absolute strength of the squad and the investment will be visible by the end of the season, irrespective of being the better team or not.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Yes. He is! As a manager what Emery did with that Sevilla team in Europe looks easily more promising than what Sir Alex managed in his 20 years CL Career with a PL dominating United team. Yes I do think he has is tactically better and more flexible than Sir Alex and it will show in Europe and his relative dominance by the end of his career is in a trajectory to  outrank Sir Alex especially in this metric - Champion teams playing bang average in Europe.And so will many other manager's who may not even grace his total PL titles, but will have a far superior European record, simply because Sir Alex (much like Wenger) was good at one thing mainly - Good at Crushing Smaller teams(winning PL).

And people here talking about losing the 2 finals against Pep-Messi Barcelona as some kind of foregone conclusion, in itself reflects poorly on him, more so when people keep saying Pep's Barcelona was better than Sir ALex squad. That United squad had enough quality to hurt Barcelona under any other manager,  but got dominated every which way (owned literally) due to his tactical ineptitude. Chelsea fared way better against that Unbeatable Barca team than Sir ALex's United albeit with a relatively poorer squad than United in my opinion.

Even for arguments sake if we ignore the 2 finals and consider them a hard lose for Sir Alex, his tactical naivety has been found 100,000 times prior in the 15 odd years to the 2 finals he reached against Barcelona, where United had a way better team than many others and still flunked in Europe.

If you read the other posts, without nitpicking Emery/Benitez > Sir Alex
The highlight take -
1. Winning PL does not show a manager's or a team's superior quality to other good teams in Europe. Winning CL is the true reflection of a teams quality and is therefore more valuable in my opinion. Prime Example: Sir Alex/Wenger.

2. Sir Alex was tactically naive compared to other greats in the game  - Paisley, Ancelotti, Sacchi, Del Bosque, Mourinho. This is reflected in his poor European record.

3. Managers like Benitez and Emery have shown more tactical nous  and intelligence in their relatively short careers in Europe than Sir Alex managed in his 20 odd years.

Let me know if you agree or disagree. Please do it with valid points that will help the argument instead of stating
Bad Post- Must be mad - Crazy etc.. etc..

Bloody 'ell.

Ferguson with 4 European trophies in 30 years of top flight management, plus a Club World Cup, and he's tactically naive?

What does that say about Klopp with no European trophies?

Anyway, we're winning the league, and that's all that has to be said about that.

[harleydanger]

Anyway, this is about Liverpool winning the league, not the ins and outs of Ferguson in Europe. Fuck that shit off elsewhere.

[SteveZissou]

I've gone through the predictive results again. Similar end result. City will take a three point lead after we draw with Southampton and they win their next game. But after that they drop points in at least three games, and we overtake them. But we also drop points in two games toward the end. So, it'd be tight. So, don't panic if we fail to win one game. Shit happens. To City too. All those on TV saying City won't drop any points are talking total rubbish.

[88_RED]

I've gone through the predictive results again. Similar end result. City will take a three point lead after we draw with Southampton and they win their next game. But after that they drop points in at least three games, and we overtake them. But we also drop points in two games toward the end. So, it'd be tight. So, don't panic if we fail to win one game. Shit happens. To City too.

This is going to the wire.. make no mistake..

City will struggle with the sheer number of matches they have in a short space of time..

We will struggle with the pressure of landing the elusive title after such a long time..

Its 50-50 at this point I would say..

To me ints not a question of who blinks first, but the timing of it.. City had a wobble when they lost 2 on the bounce.. We had a wobble when we drew 3 out of 4..

But both of those wobbles have come with plenty of games to go and time to get back on the title horse.

The next wobble and when it happens could be crucial..

Hopefully for our sake, they have it early enough and then concentrate on the Champions League..

But at this point in time, no amount of predictive results, super computers, octopuses, goats, or c*nts can predict this title race.. it's too fucking close to call..

[nico 8]

Bloody 'ell.

Ferguson with 4 European trophies in 30 years of top flight management, plus a Club World Cup, and he's tactically naive?

What does that say about Klopp with no European trophies?

Anyway, we're winning the league, and that's all that has to be said about that.

Whilst vk2rules may have gone overboard in his criticism of Ferguson and in the comparisons of other continental coaches, there is validity to his point. There is no doubt that Ferguson with the teams he has created over his tenure have under performed in Europe. Whilst he may have been unlucky in meeting one of the best teams ever created, this argument says more about the ability of Pep who was still a rookie manager, speaking relatively. If so- then the same should apply to his 2 wins where he was played off the park on both occasions. Isn't that the point  Vk2 rules is making. There is no doubting Ferguson as being the best premier league manager ever but there is no doubt that his record in Europe, given the teams he created, ought to have been a lot better. So why is that? How do you explain this underachievement- relatively speaking.

In regard to what is says about Klopp - it says that he is overachieving given the disparity in quality, depth and cost of players.

[nico 8]

This is going to the wire.. make no mistake..

City will struggle with the sheer number of matches they have in a short space of time..

We will struggle with the pressure of landing the elusive title after such a long time..

Its 50-50 at this point I would say..

To me ints not a question of who blinks first, but the timing of it.. City had a wobble when they lost 2 on the bounce.. We had a wobble when we drew 3 out of 4..

But both of those wobbles have come with plenty of games to go and time to get back on the title horse.

The next wobble and when it happens could be crucial..

Hopefully for our sake, they have it early enough and then concentrate on the Champions League..

But at this point in time, no amount of predictive results, super computers, octopuses, goats, or c*nts can predict this title race.. it's too fucking close to call..

I think it is critical that we continue to pick up 3 points as this will apply pressure mentally which will ratchet upwards when they are physically gassed out. If they are afforded a cushion in that they are aware that a draw is sufficient to stay ahead, this will enable them to be more relaxed in their approach which will; inevitably lead to 3 points and not the 1 when playing under pressure and less control against the clock.
Regardless, we are in for a ride.

[vinothmct]

It shows how much the team has improved in a short period of time with people debating in March what they would prefer to potentially win this season out of the league title and the European cup.

We haven't won any silverware for far too long, so let's hope we end up with one or both trophies at the end of the season!

This

[PhaseOfPlay]

Whilst vk2rules may have gone overboard in his criticism of Ferguson and in the comparisons of other continental coaches, there is validity to his point. There is no doubt that Ferguson with the teams he has created over his tenure have under performed in Europe. Whilst he may have been unlucky in meeting one of the best teams ever created, this argument says more about the ability of Pep who was still a rookie manager, speaking relatively. If so- then the same should apply to his 2 wins where he was played off the park on both occasions. Isn't that the point  Vk2 rules is making. There is no doubting Ferguson as being the best premier league manager ever but there is no doubt that his record in Europe, given the teams he created, ought to have been a lot better. So why is that? How do you explain this underachievement- relatively speaking.

In regard to what is says about Klopp - it says that he is overachieving given the disparity in quality, depth and cost of players.

Because there were other good teams out there too. It's not a reflection of a manager's tactical prowess when other teams have similar or greater resources, and equally talented managers.

Most managers don't win one European trophy, let alone four. And even fewer managers win one Champions League/European Cup. And even less again win two. If Ferguson was tactically naive with the teams he build, then surely Del Bosque was worse given the team he had?

I just don't buy the "tactically naive" argument. Same for us - we've lost every final we've been in under Klopp - is he tactically naive, or have we just come up against teams who were equally as good as us? Was Rafa naive? We had the best midfield in the world. It's really simplistic to view winning trophies and not winning trophies as boiling down to "tactical naivety".

[nico 8]

Because there were other good teams out there too. It's not a reflection of a manager's tactical prowess when other teams have similar or greater resources, and equally talented managers.

Most managers don't win one European trophy, let alone four. And even fewer managers win one Champions League/European Cup. And even less again win two. If Ferguson was tactically naive with the teams he build, then surely Del Bosque was worse given the team he had?

I just don't buy the "tactically naive" argument. Same for us - we've lost every final we've been in under Klopp - is he tactically naive, or have we just come up against teams who were equally as good as us? Was Rafa naive? We had the best midfield in the world. It's really simplistic to view winning trophies and not winning trophies as boiling down to "tactical naivety".

But surely there is truth in the statement that -"some managers are more tactically astute than others"? Perhaps the word "naive" in this context as used by vk2rules is inappropriate as managers at that level with those achievements are simply not naive but not as astute as others. A fairer statement may be that Ferguson is not as tactically astute as his continental counterparts as he hasn't needed to be. Ferguson had other managerial traits that made him into the greatest manager in the PL era. He however did underachieve in Europe given the teams he created.
On Del Bosque- he too should have faired better given the team assembled.

[Carra-ton]

It doesn't matter to Celtic fans. They want to win 10 in a row to top Rangers 9 in a row.

No one else cares, that is the point. While most of the world watches in awe when someone wins Champions league more than once.

[PoetryInMotion]

From what's required to win trophies based on my years of observing both European & National League tournaments,

To win European Leagues (CL or EL - EL only in the later stages), best 'Tactics' is required from manager. This is why a number of games at the European Top level are tactical. Not a lot between the sides, so fine pieces of information & exploiting whatever little weaknesses of the opposition is mostly important to keep going through.

Whereas to win National leagues, best pure 'Management' techniques are required from manager. You need to keep your players motivated and hungry throughout the season even from small games in random hours like Friday evening, early Saturday afternoon or Monday nights with not so good atmosphere. Also, need to balance games, rotate players & keep important players fit for tenure of the season etc. Tactics are needed, but teams competing for the league are already better than most of the sides in the league, so they have better quality disparity right away. The most important thing is man management and paying attention to problem points (points mentioned by doctor, or assistant in training, fitness etc.) to handle different situations and endurance. 

If any of this makes sense that is 

[nico 8]

From what's required to win trophies based on my years of observing both European & National League tournaments,

To win European Leagues (CL or EL - EL only in the later stages), best 'Tactics' is required from manager. This is why a number of games at the European Top level are tactical. Not a lot between the sides, so fine pieces of information & exploiting whatever little weaknesses of the opposition is mostly important to keep going through.

Whereas to win National leagues, best pure 'Management' techniques are required from manager. You need to keep your players motivated and hungry throughout the season even from small games in random hours like Friday evening, early Saturday afternoon or Monday nights with not so good atmosphere. Also, need to balance games, rotate players & keep important players fit for tenure of the season etc. Tactics are needed, but teams competing for the league are already better than most of the sides in the league, so they have better quality disparity right away. The most important thing is man management and paying attention to problem points (points mentioned by doctor, or assistant in training, fitness etc.) to handle different situations and endurance. 

If any of this makes sense that is 

Makes sense and would agree with most of it.

[idontknow]

It maybe too early to start singing, I get that, but is it ok if I hum a bit?
Mm mma m m league?..
Here we go mm mming cups in Mmm?
Please?

[Mr_Shane]

Ah International breaks. ... 

[Sharado]

Ah International breaks. ... 

I'm actually really enjoying this one. So much more productive at work etc.

[arab88]

Ah International breaks. ... 

I hate 'em!

[PoetryInMotion]

I'm actually really enjoying this one. So much more productive at work etc.

Had to take the whole week off sick and I've been sitting with nothing to do when not sleeping. Bad time to miss football I suppose!

[Floydy]

Absence makes the heart grow fonder, and I'm not just talking about not having a game this weekend.  So close.

[dimwit]

But surely there is truth in the statement that -"some managers are more tactically astute than others"? Perhaps the word "naive" in this context as used by vk2rules is inappropriate as managers at that level with those achievements are simply not naive but not as astute as others. A fairer statement may be that Ferguson is not as tactically astute as his continental counterparts as he hasn't needed to be. Ferguson had other managerial traits that made him into the greatest manager in the PL era. He however did underachieve in Europe given the teams he created.
On Del Bosque- he too should have faired better given the team assembled.

Ferguson is an arrogant, selfcentered bastard who is obsessed with Liverpool.

He was a great manager though, and to call him tactically naive is a bit much.

Don't know if anyone agrees, but I think it meant more to him to surpass LFCs title haul in England, than any triumphs in the continent.

[Floydy]

Ferguson is an arrogant, selfcentered bastard who is obsessed with Liverpool.

He was a great manager though, and to call him tactically naive is a bit much.

Don't know if anyone agrees, but I think it meant more to him to surpass LFCs title haul in England, than any triumphs in the continent.

nothing wrong with having a marker or benchmark in any sport. He used it as a siege mentality and he said what he said because he probaby expected us to be the team that would fight it out with them , sadly we didnt. It was a compliment really

[Son of Spion]

Ferguson is an arrogant, selfcentered bastard who is obsessed with Liverpool.

He was a great manager though, and to call him tactically naive is a bit much.

Don't know if anyone agrees, but I think it meant more to him to surpass LFCs title haul in England, than any triumphs in the continent.

That wouldn't surprise me. He had a major bee in his bonnet with us after we destroyed his Aberdeen side in the European Cup in 1980.

Beat them home and away, 5-0 on agg.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/O3cSliGfLWo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/O3cSliGfLWo</a>

[latortuga]

Hopefully Ferguson is alive long enough to see us reclaim top position, having won the most league titles. 

And so continues the circle of life...

[kesey]

That wouldn't surprise me. He had a major bee in his bonnet with us after we destroyed his Aberdeen side in the European Cup in 1980.

Beat them home and away, 5-0 on agg.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/O3cSliGfLWo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/O3cSliGfLWo</a>

Their fans have too. I've read in some of ' those ' books that Aberdeen started the ' terrace or casual ' scene and when we played them in 1980 we copied them.

 

[dimwit]

I'm sorry but I can't get it out of my head that that's Eric Idle doing the comms on that 

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/O3cSliGfLWo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/O3cSliGfLWo</a>

[vicar]

That wouldn't surprise me. He had a major bee in his bonnet with us after we destroyed his Aberdeen side in the European Cup in 1980.

Beat them home and away, 5-0 on agg.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/O3cSliGfLWo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/O3cSliGfLWo</a>

That flick from Dalglish for Neil's goal is fantastic.
You also forget how good a player Hansen was and how attacking, he gets so far forward on every attack!

[SteveZissou]

Interesting comment from Steve Nicol the other day saying the 1989 Liverpool team was totally spent, playing three games in six days ending with the famous loss to Arsenal.
He said they were running on empty and you could see that, so it's interesting when people think this is only a modern problem. Of course it's even worse now with the UEFA fixtures.

[SteveZissou]

I haven't read anywhere else, but the problem we could have is that we are not playing City when they are tired in this climax. If we did then I believe we would've killed them off with our extra energy. You keep hearing we are going to be livelier but we are not playing them. There's no use us being livelier when City's opposition is half dead.

We say they are tired and we count Spurs to help us. But they're extremely tired too. What about Manutd? They got the UCL and played in the FA Cup up to the qf so they'd be tired too. So when will they play a team who's not only energetic to hunt them down but also plays fearless football to attack their weaknesses? Otherwise it'd be just like their recent games with tired City v tired opposition or opposition resting their players and not willing to risk stretching themselves? Our hope may lie with the relegation candidates.

[Perham]

Interesting comment from Steve Nicol the other day saying the 1989 Liverpool team was totally spent, playing three games in six days ending with the famous loss to Arsenal.
He said they were running on empty and you could see that, so it's interesting when people think this is only a modern problem. Of course it's even worse now with the UEFA fixtures.

I agree that fixture congestion's always been a problem but that particular time was unique circumstances as we'd had games cancelled for a few weeks following Hillsborough which led to playing the later games really close together. In normal circumstances, that wouldn't have happened.

[Floydy]

Interesting comment from Steve Nicol the other day saying the 1989 Liverpool team was totally spent, playing three games in six days ending with the famous loss to Arsenal.
He said they were running on empty and you could see that, so it's interesting when people think this is only a modern problem. Of course it's even worse now with the UEFA fixtures.

remember that run in  so vividly, the games that stick out for me ,I remember we drew a Goodison 0-0 , I remember thumping West Ham 5-0 was it?  Then of course that Friday night fixture against Arsenal

[Crosby Nick]

remember that run in  so vividly, the games that stick out for me ,I remember we drew a Goodison 0-0 , I remember thumping West Ham 5-0 was it?  Then of course that Friday night fixture against Arsenal

The 0-0 at Everton was the first competitive game back I think. And West Ham was 5-1, think they scored late which reduced Arsenal’s required target by one.

[slotmachine]

We beat Everton in the cup final after extra time on the saturday when the temperature pitchside was over 100 degrees with the obvious emotions that occasion brought. We then beat West Ham in our game in hand on the tuesday night 5-1 and it was once again a really warm night and i remember the humidity was crazy and then the title decider against Arsenal was on the friday night and it was a game too far. We were fucked and we struggled mentally in how to approach the game because we could afford to draw or lose the game by 1 goal and still win the league. Fair play to Arsenal who were a great side but the fixture list really caught up with us.