Topic: RAWK Round Table Southampton 3-2 LFC

[BabuYagu]

"The problem with confidence is a little bit, I'm not sure if I've said it before,
it's a little flower and if you step on it it's away in a second. It's much more difficult to let it grow than to let it die"

- Jurgen Klopp, pre-Southampton press conference, 20 March 2016

It seems there are two types of people on RAWK right now. Those who think Skrtel is entirely to blame for this collapse & result.... and those who do not. I have to say I can see both sides of the arguement on this one.

In one hand, itīs too simplistic to just put everything at his feet. Itīs not his fault we didnīt put away 2 or 3 goals more in the first half - and we really should have done. They were a mess. Itīs not his fault the decision was made to disrupt our solid looking defence and bring on a player who has been out for a long time and looked anything but a pillar of strength in his recent reserves outing. Itīs not his fault Benteke failed to take the easy chance that Lallana gave him. Skrtel had absolutely zero control of any of those situations.... any or all of which would have prevented the second half comeback we witnessed.

However, in the other hand, if you look at the game purely from the point Skrtel was introduced, where he had the opportunity to influence the game, then I would argue that every moment from there was due to him. And itīs really harsh, he has been out for a long time, heīs not looked very solid in comeback games and to be honest for those reasons Iīd have had Lucas or Kolo on the pitch before him. But at some point he needed to be given the chance to play his way back into first team contention. Kolo & Lucas were both given chances and this was Skrtels. 2-0, in a game we looked in complete control of. Klopp felt safe enough in his footing in this game that he could withdraw Lovren, protect him from the emotion of the occasion and risk of a second yellow, and also give Skrtel 45 minutes of first team football to play himself back into match fitness. With hindsight, itīs easy to find fault with that decision of course. But, if you take out of it your worries about Skrtel and look at it from a management of resources point of view, you can see how that would make some sense.

However, what Klopp maybe didnīt realise, was that Skrtel is our flower trampler. Our defence for a long time has been a mess regardless of who played and which manager was in charge. However, for the first time in a while, Skrtel was out of first team contention and without him around our confidence began to grow. It didnīt matter who was playing either. Kolo, Lucas, Sakho, Lovren or even Caulker. The very raw Moreno. Flanno without any football in 2 years. Clyne having a stinker at Old Trafford. Milner trying to fill in at full back. No matter what was happening - Mignolet grew in confidence as did our defensive unit as a collective. Maybe itīs because they are all working together. I do believe a large part of it is down to the absence of Skrtel though. He is a nightmare for a goalkeeper. He hates attacking the ball. He much rather back off and try to get a block - which for goalkeepers means shots from closer distances, shots with obstructed views, shots being bent round players, close range deflections, more own goals... all these are symptoms of Skrtels style of (I call it) Ice Hockey defending. Thatīs not to mention him defending deeper than the backline a lot of the time and dragging every into his own box as the rest cannot push out.

And so Skrtel is introduced and within a couple of minutes heīs given away a penalty. It didnīt matter that Mignolet made a world class penalty save. And it really was world class. The damage had been done. The flower had been trampled. The confidence that had been growing and starting to bloom with a dominant Lovren and aggressive Sakho at the back was killed in a moment. Southamptons, on the other hand, started to grow. "We can get at these". "They look so vulnerable back there now". You just know that was in their minds.

“Before you are tired, you think you are tired. If you don't think you are tired, it is easy."

- Jurgen Klopp, November 2015

When you lose that confidence, fear can start to take itīs place. Afraid of letting them back in the game. Afraid of pushing forwards. Afraid of taking risks, being creative, having a shot, making a tackle. Then you just want the game to end. You start to feel tired. Thinking "we just need to hold out, we have a 2 goal lead". "1 goal lead". "We still have an away point". Nothing.

Thankfully, in Klopp, we have a manager who understands better than anybody the importance of psychology in football. He is making us mentally stronger. To do that, he actually needs moments like this. We only have the league and the Europa League now to experiment in and if Klopp still has questions about his squad, then the league is absolutely the place he needs to search for those answers before next season. It hurts, it will be painful to watch and there may be other moments like this (hopefully only in the league and this season though). But as we have seen with Benteke, price, salary, status, value.... these things mean nothing to Klopp. If Benteke ruins our attacks, he wonīt play. If Skrtel ruins our defence, he wonīt play. He believes in giving people chances. Benteke had plenty. Maybe Skrtel will have more too. Hopefully, not in the Europa League though.

[Hinesy]

Bump.

[Hinesy]

What do you think? Lets remember the RAWK ethos: reasoned debate and criticism with justification is acceptable. Abuse of LFC players is not.
ta

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Lifted from Babu's post:

"He is a nightmare for a goalkeeper. He hates attacking the ball. He much rather back off and try to get a block - which for goalkeepers means shots from closer distances, shots with obstructed views, shots being bent round players, close range deflections, more own goals... all these are symptoms of Skrtels style of (I call it) Ice Hockey defending. Thatīs not to mention him defending deeper than the backline a lot of the time and dragging every into his own box as the rest cannot push out."

I believe this to be very true and I argued it until I was blue in the face when the criticism towards Mignolet was at it's peak. The synergy, if you will, between the keeper and the CBs is vital to a keeper's game. Yet it was mostly argued that it was Mignolet who spread uncertainty to the center backs, instead of the other way around. Guess this is me saying I told you so.

Our defensive organisation has been good to very good for most of the games in the last couple of months and it doesn't take much to disrupt it. If one cog goes out of sync, then all the others can't function properly either. Maby a poor analogy, but the best my grasp of English can muster.

On top of this, I thought we looked tired from abot the hour mark, especially Can looked like he was huffing and puffing. The tiredness could have been mental as well.

A 3rd reason is our inability to take our chances. That game should have been over a half time, with us up by at least 3.

How often do you see referees give goals like Joe Allen's? Frequently, I'd say.

All in all, I am not very upset as I thought we saw so many good signs in the first half. Again. I think we've taken huge steps since Klopp came in and regardless of this result, we're on an upwards curve.

[Funky_Gibbons]

I thought first half was some of the best football we’ve played all season. We were so quick in possession, moving the ball forward with pace and directness, midfielders getting forward to support the attack with well-timed runs into the box. Allen and Can were dominating the midfield and were covering every blade of grass, Coutinho and Lallana were continuing their recent personal good form since we switched to 4-4-2 and both were creating chances at will for their team mates. Origi was a willing runner up front without looking a goal threat while Sturridge looked dangerous whilst still looking uncomfortable with his body.

The Coutinho goal was magical and the Sturridge goal was a lightening quick counter attack that was superbly finished by Sturridge, dummying the defender to give himself half a yard to curl into the bottom corner. Two big things happened next, the Allen miss which he should be putting away and would have been one of the goals of the season and the disallowed goal, these proved massive later in the game. There is no exaggeration to say that we could have gone into halftime four or five goals ahead and it wouldn’t have flattered us.

The start of the Second half saw massive changes that affected the rest of the match. Skrtel coming on for Lovren and Southampton bringing on Wanyama to add an extra body to midfield and Mane. Our midfield dominance from the first half was slowly eroded as the extra man Southampton had in midfield started to tell and Allen didn’t have the physicality to deal with. We also dropped deeper and deeper in defence (Skrtel) which meant the already outnumbered midfield were now covering more ground.

After the first goal we continued to drop deeper and invite more pressure. At this stage we should have been looking to solidify midfield but instead we made the odd decision to bring Benteke on for Sturridge (who moments before hand had refused to chase down an Allen pass down the wing). Despite Southampton now dominating the game we still managed to create chances that should have killed the game off. Lallana’s through ball to Can in the centre of the goal which he fails to get a good connection to and Lallana again playing in Benteke but his effort goes wide.

Clearly Skrtel’s introduction was the catalyst for the second half collapse but other players shouldn’t be ignored for their part:

1st goal – Can and Flanagan messing around with the ball, Mane runs off Sakho who is too slow to react.

2nd goal – Skrtel with a poor header, ball goes to Pelle, Sakho once again slow to close down and block the shot.

3rd goal – Awful kick from Mignolet goes straight up in the air, Skrtel underneath it completely misreads it, Skrtel and Allen to weak in the tackle, Mane runs of Sakho again who is slow to react.

For me this result was down to a couple of poor decisions from the manager and several from the players. Lovren had made only one foul in the first half so wasn’t walking a disciplinary tightrope, he had just come of 90-minutes at Old Trafford knowing managing to avoid a booking which would have suspended him for the next game. I didn’t think at the time it was a good decision to substitute him at half time and I’ve yet to be convinced it was a good decision. Secondly, not bringing on Henderson when we were 2-1 up but under pressure was wrong. We needed to be more pragmatic at that stage and hold onto what we had.

[lachesis]

It was disastrous. First half we were decent. Moved the ball quick, and could have been 3-0 up. But that's by the by, we were 2-0 up and pretty much coasting from an attacking point of view.

I don't know why we swapped Clyne and Flanagan. Clyne has been excellent, I think we may have tried him at left back once before (from memory, anyone confirm?), and I don't think he covered himself in glory then either. As much as I like Flanagan, by moving Clyne to left back we weakened both of those areas. Flanagan has played left back before and done it very well, I just don't see the benefit in creating two weak(er) areas instead of adding a bit of concrete to the significant one (left back).

Secondly, I think Klopp was right to take off Lovren. He'd already put 3/4 rash challenges because of 'heat-of-the-moment' decisions and the yellow card was a noose round his neck. For what it's worth, I think we would have conceded with him on (maybe only once though) or he would have walked in that second half.

Skrtel was a fucking disaster when he came on. But he's not the only culprit. Sakho firstly played Mane on for the first goal and then didn't get close enough to him. Second he didn't get close enough to Pelle (dangling his legs weirdly which left him flat footed to close the gap) and third he was not close enough again to his man. Mane took his second one quickly but I think he had the beating of Sakho all afternoon on that side if I'm being honest. He left a massive gap on his right for Pelle to unleash a ferocious shot as well.

Skrtel didn't do one thing right since coming on. He was all over the place, undisciplined and frankly caused havoc in the defence. While Sakho probably should have done better with each chance, Skrtel should have not have exposed him in the way that he did. The defence has been improving recently, there was a sense of calmness to it and when playing a defence that's based on organisation and strength in continuity, it's absolutely disastrous to tinker with it. That's pretty much what Klopp did, first with the full backs then throwing Skrtel in. Contextually Skrtel made no sense in this game, and it's why we conceded a penalty straight away. It wasn't that type of game where there was wrestling or shirt tugging so it stood out a mile when he did it.

I think a good portion of the lads thought the game was done and dusted and was equally a factor in the lacklustre second half as was 'tiredness'. As good as Daniel Sturridge is at finishing we don't have the quality to carry him for the other three quarters of his game time. Really frustrating me at the moment. Midfield was ok until it was challenged then it disappeared again. The matchup for Wanyama should have been Can so I'm not sure why everyone was getting on Allen's case. That's a huge mismatch. I think it goes back to having a leader in the team, someone who sees a problem and will take control of it on the pitch. And for what it's worth I don't think Henderson is that guy either. Our options are limited to deal with that kind of player but we have to find a way.

Allen should have done better with his attempt in the first half but it was on target and low, keeper just got a leg to it. He did net a few seconds later with a more difficult chance but it was offside. I also think people are being way too harsh on Benteke for that chance he rolled past the post. Sure, he was lazy again, didn't look arsed and I've no idea why he was in half the positions he was in but that chance wasn't simple.

Wider perspective - you can defend a decent portion of the playing personnel based on their ability (the argument is how consistently they show their talent), but how many of them have the hunger and desire of any of the Leicester players for example? OR even the Southampton players? We're OK when the wind's blowing the right way but we slink away with a whimper when we need to deliver. Not just this season but it's pretty much a hallmark of us as a club - despite the 3 or 4 high watermarks we've had in the last ten years or so.

I look at our squad right now and there is so much dead wood and shite in it, it's untrue. Then there are the 'pretenders' dotted round the periphery. The only way I see out of this mess is at least 5 new first team players, then I think of our asset profile and our track record over the last five years and I'm filled with real dread over what we'll get.

We're now ninth in the table and we'll probably finish 7-10th depending on what performances we stick in over the remaining games. Dortmund is a huge ask for this squad, so the pressure is at least off for that one. I don't know where to draw optimism from as this season winds down. There's at least 15 players I'd happily bin off from our current squad, there's an uncertain summer and I'm not sure it's going to have the dramatic effect everyone is assuming heading into the 16/17 season. Right now we're a mess, we've got the stink of about three managers on the squad and a bumbling transfer committee as well. We're in a position where we're managing game from game because we're basically unable to put a cohesive team out there. Even when you have the strongest players in each position there, it's rare we look anything like a team. It might come together for a half or we might play one excellent game only to look lost in the next. Coaching solidity will get you so far but at some point you need that desire to either arrest a comeback like Southampton mustered or to put your foot down and say you won't be bullied out the game. I think we can see the benefits of coaching in some areas of our play notably the defence becoming a bit better but there's no authentic passion from most of the players.

I don't think we're going anywhere fast, and I wouldn't be surprised if next season we're actually in that West Ham, Southampton, Stoke tier - at least we'll have United for company though.

[Redeo]

Sakho firstly played Mane on for the first goal and then didn't get close enough to him. Second he didn't get close enough to Pelle (dangling his legs weirdly which left him flat footed to close the gap) and third he was not close enough again to his man. Mane took his second one quickly but I think he had the beating of Sakho all afternoon on that side if I'm being honest. He left a massive gap on his right for Pelle to unleash a ferocious shot as well.

I fully agree. While it is the easiest thing to assort blame after a defeat, I think that second half exposed frailties of both of our central defenders. Skrtel's have been widely pointed out, but Sakho's haven't as much. While he seems to have a good head on his shoulders and can think through many situations very well, his gangliness/clumsiness/lack of speed and explosiveness was clearly exposed by a quick thinking, fast paced striker. In such one on one situations he is a clear liability and needs support.

Overall, however, I think the game summed up very well where we stand at the moment. Playing entertaining, offensive, well organised football but still lacking all of the proper pieces. Onwards and upwards!!

[Djimi Smicer34]

1) Babu is spot on about Skrtel.  Is what happened in the second half all down to him?  No.  Was his introduction the turning point in our regression from our first half performance?  Absolutely.

Even being 2-0 up and having played as well as we have all season for the first forty-five minutes, I can't be the only one who thought "uh oh" when I saw Skrtel ready to come on.  The difference in the back line in terms of composure and confidence when he came on was stark.  He is obviously lacking match fitness but even then he managed to do all the things that he is criticised for: needlessly pulling opposition player's shirts, being hesitant to attack the ball and be aggressive, dropping deeper than the rest of our defence and dragging it back with him.  It was as bad a performance as you'll see.  Sakho has looked so much better alongside Lovren, that is the partnership that we've built our solidity on in recent weeks and that is the one we have to keep on the pitch between now and the end of the season if both remain fit. 

It was a horrible substitution, made with the best intentions but it backfired spectacularly.  And I don't think Klopp will be doing it again.

2) The midfield in the first-half was as good as its been under Klopp.  The pressing and movement of Allen and Can was absolutely superb, exactly what you'd expect from a Klopp team, and allowed us to counter-attack them to devastating effect.  Henderson will probably come back into and stay in the team from Spurs onward but I do think we look more effective and dangerous as a team when Allen and Can are playing.

3) If we're going to play Clyne and Flanagan in the same team hopefully it will be on the opposite sides to where they played on Sunday.  Flanagan is perfectly comfortable at LB, Clyne doesn't look to be.

4) Benteke stifled our attack.  If you wanted any more proof that he isn't going to be part of Klopp's plans beyond this season then this was it.  Its not his fault but for all the talk about him adapting and knowing what he needs to do to adapt to Klopp, there has been absolutely no sign of him changing any part of his game in order to do that.  It can't be easy for him, he's arrived here for a lot of money and amidst big expectations having got the move to a big club he craved but he's been usurped by a 20-year-old who looks a real star in the making himself.  The dressing down by Klopp at the end attracted more attention that it deserved but in itself is probably a good indication of the frustration Klopp himself is feeling with Benteke. 

[BabuYagu]

I fully agree. While it is the easiest thing to assort blame after a defeat, I think that second half exposed frailties of both of our central defenders. Skrtel's have been widely pointed out, but Sakho's haven't as much. While he seems to have a good head on his shoulders and can think through many situations very well, his gangliness/clumsiness/lack of speed and explosiveness was clearly exposed by a quick thinking, fast paced striker. In such one on one situations he is a clear liability and needs support.

Overall, however, I think the game summed up very well where we stand at the moment. Playing entertaining, offensive, well organised football but still lacking all of the proper pieces. Onwards and upwards!!

Isnīt the problem though that Skrtel creates space for the opposition? Itīs a valuable commodity as an attacking team and so having an opposition player do that for you must be a joy. He pulls the defence away from the midfield, moves out of position at the wrong times leaving gaping holes for Sakho and Flannagan to fill?

Lovren and Sakho both look terrible when they have massive spaces in front of or between the defence to deal with. The solution was always to find someone else. The past weeks have shown us that if you actually remove the guy creating all that space and pair any combination of Kolo-Lucas-Sakho-Lovren together, have them defend as a unit rather than a collection of individuals, have them stay close to the midfield shield rather that run away from it at the first sign of danger, that it works out better for us. Even Migs, who I had honestly given up on after that Bordeaux game, looks far better without Skrtel standing on top of him, allowing point blank shots, obstructing his view and deflecting shots all over the place.

Sometimes you can look at an individuals failings and say "you should be doing better". But sometimes you need to take a more overhead look at things. Are those failings symptomatic of something else. Are all our goalkeepers and defenders an accident prone mess waiting to happen - or are they being negatively impacted by the actions of one? Do we need to replace all our goalkeepers and defenders bar Clyne (was being said earlier in the season, no joke) or do we just need to discover the one causing the rest to act erratically?

Yes, we must absolutely must point at Sakho and say "what the fuck are you doing there?". Others too. But we also need to help them. Keep giving Lovren or Sakho or anybody else huge amounts of space to defend and pacey forwards will fuck us up. Because there are no center halves in the game built like Alexis Sanchez. Small, agile, zippy players will always have an advantage if we do that.

Conclusion:- Stop fucking doing it!

[BCCC]

To be fair to Skrtel for their 3rd goal, he wasn't expecting the powder puff clearance from Mignolet (having said that I was..) to give him a challenge to make just in front of our 18yrd box when it should've been hitting Benteke. He was off balance and watching it come over his shoulder.

In terms of space we didn't need to be as deep as we were in the 2nd half when non of our back four are comfortable with the ball and turn over possession under pressure. Similarly our midfield had already decided we had done the job in the 1st half. I'd like to think it was an isolated learning experience but it happened regularly under Rodgers. We really needed a captain out there in the 2nd half and it was unfair on Flanagan to have to do the captain's job in those circumstances.

That 2nd half performance probably reaffirmed Klopp's thinking about what he needs to do with the squad. I'm expecting some high profile casualties during the summer transfer window.

[Miklagard]

I have read alot about Southampton running over our midfield when Wanyama came on, but I didnt see it like that. Even after Benteke came on I said to my nephew that we look solid in shape. This game was not lost in midfield. I dont want to single out players but this was on Skrtel. And a little bit of Klopp for letting him into the field.

[SerbianScouser]

It`s not that difficult to spot the clear pattern this season when it comes to defending. We are decent to very good defending against teams that like to keep the ball on the deck and pass through us but every time teams go long to their targetmen it creates massive problems for us regardless of personnel. It really is our Achilles heel this season.

Having watched the game again I was amazed how effective their diagonal balls to their targetman (Pelle) were. They were winning attacking aerial duels for fun and taking it from there. Good news is that Klopp realized very early in his tenure that defending this type of football is very problematic for us hence the Matip signing; and you could see in this game what the idea behind Matip was, if hypothetically speaking it was him rather than Skrtel and he managed to dominate or at least compete with Pelle in the air it would mean that next season defensively we`re gonna improve dramatically as with our pressing we are already decent against the teams that want to pass through us and get to the final third.

One other detail that people haven`t mentioned is that in situations where our CBs step out to challenge in the air adjacent fullback at the same time needs to move inside to fill that vacated space. The very moment Skrtel would step out to try to head it back Flanagan needed to move and try to fill that space because there was no danger on the outside to his right, all the danger was in that vacated space; now he may or may not have gotten there in time but it`s something I`d like to see our fullbacks do in these situations.

As for the positives I see a lot of encouraging stuff. We are top scorers in the league in 2016, these days it really looks like we have goals in us again and we look far more threatening than at any point since the start of 14/15 season. Going forward we are a transformed team since Coutinho, Origi and Sturridge returned from their injuries at the same time and once we finished Benteke experiment having realized over a period of time how negative his influence is on our attacking play. ( having said that Benteke more than fully deserved his chance that he got from Klopp in winter months to show what he can ). 

It`s one of the most hurtful defeats in recent times however it`s really clear where we can make massive improvements. If Matip can compete with targetmen of this league next season and be our Hyypia in a way our defensive improvement will be profound.

[jdillg]

It was a fascinating game. There will be talk of how much we bossed the first half and how badly Skrtel upset the works. These are true - Skrtel is a fine individual defender, but a poor team one. His best role that I have ever seen him in was as a sweeper in a three and that is as individual a role as you get in defense - the guy who puts out fires while the other two go out to meet attackers. There, Skrtel's athleticism, aerial prowess, and tackling shine. When he has to actually coordinate on where to play an offside line and where to shuffle out to meet attackers so as to minimize space - that is where he has always struggled.

However, it is important to remember that the early spell of Southampton pressure and Lovren's clumsy challenge on Long could have been nearly as calamitous. There was space in the channels for their strikers when the game was 442 - 442. It was just that Pelle isn't the sort of forward to take advantage of this space and we got a bit lucky with Long. On the other hand, there was also space for our strikers in the channels and our attacking midfielders in between the lines, and Sturridge did well to take his chance. Coutinho's goal was more RNG than anything else. He is always capable of that sort of thing, of course, but it is difficult to count on it. Allen's first chance was a very good one and well saved and we were perhaps unlucky on the offside for his second.

In the second half, they adjusted fairly well, but not spectacularly well. Wanyama gave them more solidity in between the lines, and Mane made intelligent off the ball runs. The thing was, we gifted them chances. Mignolet did fantastically well to save the penalty, but he still is not of the standard that I would expect of a top half goalkeeper, much less a top four one. We surrender a terrible percentage of our shots on target to goals and underperform expected goals against terribly, and a lot of that is down to Mignolet. When we actually allow chances, it is often due to disorganization caused by Skrtel, lack of balance by Sakho, or rash decision making by Lovren, with the former tending to bring out the worst of the other two. At least the offensive side of our game is looking much more up to scratch, though I will agree that Sturridge should have come off for Henderson in order to add energy to the midfield. At the very least we would have had more bodies covering the chasm of space in between attack and defense caused by the retreat of our defensive line. But, it is hard to criticize without knowing about Henderson's true fitness level. And Benteke made a few good runs into the channels, one of which was a good chance to grab a killer third goal. He's still a bit awkward and slow and lacks energy and struggles with offside traps, but he's been trying to make positive forward runs lately and this has resulted in the late penalty against Palace and the good chance in this match. Too often, he would check back towards the midfield earlier in the season.

All in all, we missed a chance to make a top four push, but that is because we are not a top four standard team right now. There are plenty of good things to look at. Plenty of bad. At least Liverpool can't be said to be boring this year! I'm sure that the manager will identify and address most of the problems and mess up on a few solutions. That is to be expected. That is football. But I trust this management team more than the last to make good decisions more often than not. And that is all that you can ask for.

[redtel]

Yes, a frustrating Sunday afternoon especially if you spend ages trying to get your new Android box to find a way through Kodi, or whatever, to a decent stream from St Mary's. When the very clear pics arrived we were 2-0 up which was annoying at first but better than being 0-2 I reconciled. (I did say it took me ages!)

I thought this would be a tough game coming off a Thursday away and facing a team out to avenge a 1-6 drubbing just a few months ago. Koeman would have them up for it and as I watched us pile forward in search of more goals into acres of space, it seemed to me they were chasing the game fearful of what dressing down they would get at half time.

We should have had three but for the disallowed goal but maybe the outcome of the second half would have been only slightly different. A draw instead of a win. Certainly Klopp wouldn't have hesitated to sub Lovren if it was 0-3.

No need to add anything to the above posts as Skrtels faults have been highlighted and the lack of fight when we are in a battle have been there for a couple of seasons. Wanyama was put on to make it a battle and when Ward-Prouse appeared later he fouled our midfield every time he went near the ball. Koeman can spot weakness and the tactics paid off. Just why nobody in our team gets riled when they can see the likes of Allen, Coutinho and Lallana getting floored is a mystery to me. There's never a reaction.

Lastly, a ray of hope for this season.

I visit Southampton every summer when my wife visits family there. In August 2000 I made sure our trip down coincided with the Reds last visit to The Dell which was not our happiest hunting ground. Ged was building a team which was built on the solidity of H&H at the back, Stevie and The Kaiser in midfield, and a young speedy Owen up front.

All were playing as we cruised to a 3-0 score line at 64 mins. We also had Babbel and Carra in defence so I was still enjoying the sunshine when Pahars scored after 73mins. No problem even though they had made substitutions I reasoned. With about 5 mins to go a second goal went in and right on time with the home crowd in a frenzy, Pahars scored his second to make it 3-3. Shades of Mane on Sunday.

It felt like a defeat as I trudged out of The Dell for the last time. Good riddance I thought.

That's why I think even 3-0 at half time last Sunday wouldn't  have guaranteed a win for us.

The fact is that we went on to do the treble that season including a famous 5-4 in Dortmund. We are going back there next month and whilst we can't win a treble it's not impossible for this team to win a cup if they can retain the attitude shown in the two games against the mancs.

Klopp was angry at the final whistle and only partly with Benteke. Maybe with himself and the lack of fight out there. Bullied out of it.

[Alf Garnett!]

Some great analysis in here,top post from Funky Gibbons which i agree completely,difficult to add much to your version of events.

Almost word for word regarding who was culpable for the goals conceded that i posted in the CB thread.

Skrtel has been slaughtered,harsh to be given the levels of criticism for his role in the 2nd half where i thought Sakho could have prevented or done a lot more to avoid all 3.
Skrtel aint the future,we all know that-but he has been a scapegoat for this defeat no doubt-we fell apart as a team,an awry substitution too.

1) Babu is spot on about Skrtel.  Is what happened in the second half all down to him?  No.  Was his introduction the turning point in our regression from our first half performance?  Absolutely.

After half time it was clear we were not in control of the midfield,its debatable whether Skrtel being on or off the field would have made such a massive a difference like some think.
The loss of midfield control & not adapting effectively were major factors in us surrendering the game.

[ArchieC]

After his midweek game, Skrtel should not of even have been named on the subs bench for the Southampton match.  Didn't deserve that spot.

[CHOPPER]

Easy to point the finger solely at the defence and in particular certain players. However - You don't take your chances, you don't win football matches.........And Guilty edged chances no less!


See man united in the week, for being 'lucky' in this respect.


When we play Dortmund, if we squander chances like we have over the last three games - then we will be out before we even get them back to Anfield.

[wemmick]

Some great analysis in here,top post from Funky Gibbons which i agree completely,difficult to add much to your version of events.

Almost word for word regarding who was culpable for the goals conceded that i posted in the CB thread.

Skrtel has been slaughtered,harsh to be given the levels of criticism for his role in the 2nd half where i thought Sakho could have prevented or done a lot more to avoid all 3.
Skrtel aint the future,we all know that-but he has been a scapegoat for this defeat no doubt-we fell apart as a team,an awry substitution too.

After half time it was clear we were not in control of the midfield,its debatable whether Skrtel being on or off the field would have made such a massive a difference like some think.
The loss of midfield control & not adapting effectively were major factors in us surrendering the game.

I think Skrtel was the major reason reason for this. The midfield lost its compactness with Skrtel (and therefore Sakho) constantly dropping deeper and deeper when possession was lost. With a small, technical midfield we needed that compactness to prevent being overrun, especially after the Wanyama sub. I'm honestly not sure that even bringing on Henderson would have made that much difference. Perhaps he would have created more compactness just by being an extra body, but the general compactness in the middle was lost with Skrtel's introduction. That's really what pissed me off about his performance. It wasn't the individual errors so much as the sheer stupidity of not recognizing his part in keeping the midfield compact. There's no effective counter-pressing or counter-attacking game without it. Skrtel has enough experience that he should recognize the part he has to play in the team.

[moloch]

The difference between players is not always the quality but their mentality.

Sums it up to me really.

[DonkeyWan]

Firstly, I don't quite agree with the division as you see it. There are two camps, yes; those who blame Skrtel and those who partly blame Skrtel. The stats after the game were telling, no interceptions, tackles or headers, but watching the game he clearly had a torrid time, his first action being a penalty and after that to back off and sit deep. He undermined the entire backline and was the achilles heel in the capitulation.

However, I belong to the latter group, there were a lot of different factors that led to the collapse:

1] The reason Liverpool had so much success early on is because their 442 was better than Southampton's. Yes, Liverpool had glaring misses, but the failure to replicate that form in the second half was the key problem. The reason they failed to do that stemmed from the substitutions. After half time Southampton switched to a 4231. Liverpool kept Origi and Sturridge on. Perhaps Sturridge was supposed to play wide, but effectively what happened was the midfield got overrun. When Sturridge came off, the use of Benteke rather than solidifying the middle of the park exacerbated the problems in the backline.

2] Personnel did Liverpool few favours. The old failings from key players let the side down. Firstly, while Allen had a good first half, as soon as it became more of a battle in the middle, his lack of pace and strength were exposed. Again we were subjected to the sight of holes appearing in the middle and being exploited. The bigger issue of course was Skrtel, the weakect CB at the club I think. So easily brushed off the ball; added to this was a lack of fitness and match sharpness. Finally, Benteke, once again, not performing, missing chances.

3] Managerial mistakes. I said after the game and still maintain Klopp ballsed this up. Lallana in the middle of the park is a mistake, he needs to be further forward to get the most out of him.  Origi and Sturridge up front worked for a while, but once Koeman reacted he needed to ditch that formation and put steel in the middle. I think he was convinced the game was over and decided to experiment a bit. You do that in the premiership, you get bit. Mind you, that is a lesson every foreign coach new to the premiership needs to learn at some point, lets hope Klopp realises now the fickle nature of then premiership.

4] There is also another problem I think Klopp is struggling with, a problem that Rodgers has also struggled with in the past, namely how to get he best out of Sturridge. He is not a lone striker and is fact better with a big man (a la Origi) beside him.  I think part of the reason Klopp didn't reinforce the midfield stemmed from his desire to maximize Sturridge's usefulness. That still doesn't explain the benteke sub though, perhaps this was Klopp trying out different things and falling flat on his face a little.

Yesterday I see as little more than a  hiccup, teething problems, a temporary setback. Why? Because Klopp has already demonstrated a preference for a first XI. On another day Milner, Henderson, Firmino and Moreno would come into that side and give it solidity. Lovren (clearly our 2nd best CB now) would stay the 90, regardless of a yellow, or at worst Toure would come on. Yesterday was partly Klopp giving peripheral players like Origi, Allen, Flanagan, Skrtel, Ojo and Benteke time on the pitch. It went horribly wrong, but it feels very different to when, for example, Rodgers would take a winning 11 and try to crowbar his favourites back into the side, only for it all to come undone.

[fowlermagic]

Long story short we lost control of the middle of the park and gave Saints the initiative to get at our backline which Mane did very well. Obviously Skrtel did not cover himself in glory but our team is so mentally frail that when we sniff trouble, we open the door to the opposition and allow them to put the fox amongst the hens. With or without Skrtel our team has looked frail during large chunks of this season to the point we need to add a strong character into every facet of our spine - attack, central midfield, defence and goalie. Crazy to say that but not one of our players comes within a mile of what we have seen in previous teams as how would you compare our present spine's character to a Reina, Carragher, Mascherano or Suarez? The sad thing is not even those guys had one league title btw them so I wont even start comparing our present lot to the 70s / 80s versions.

[RayPhilAlan]

The calamitous second half almost makes us forget how good we were in the first half. Individual brilliance for the first goal, and a stunning team move for the second (their forward has the ball under control near our goal line but somehow Sakho robs him and gets it to Clyne, who immediately feeds Coutinho, whose single touch is a delightful pass to meet Origi's run and he then finds Sturridge in the box.) The chance Joe Allen missed would have bettered that move if not for Forster's save.

Both of those team moves reminded me of Borussia Dortmund's play - it's coming lads.

And then the second half. Well that one reminded me of the QPR game a few years ago (the one with Coates's goal in it.) Completely on top and then substitutions tip the balance. We looked a beaten team as soon as they got their first.

Exhaustion played a part in that. It will be an interesting squad re-jig in the summer, as the Klopp style clearly needs players who can run all game at high intensity. If games come too thick and fast, we'll need a big enough squad of high enough quality to rotate without any drop-off in the ability to win. Some current players clearly can't cope with the style, and I think they've been identified in this thread.

[BabuYagu]

Both of those team moves reminded me of Borussia Dortmund's play - it's coming lads.

Good post mate. And itīs true also that I think we showed us at our best and us at our worst. Iīm sure the cliche spitting knobheads were falling over themselves to say "Itīs a game of two halves"

A look at our second half performance yesterday and canīt help but think "imagine bringing Grujlic on to deal with Wanayama" or "imagine bringing on Matip to deal with Pelle". I already think those two incoming players will add that little extra steel that we seem to miss at times. Of course that is putting a lot of pressure on Grujlic in particular but I like the look of him. Seems a real powerhouse midfielder. I remember seeing a young can in pre-season shoulder charging people all over the place and thinking "he could be that midfield bully we are missing". I hope in Grujlic we see similar glimpses in a few months time.

Klopp used to throw on center halves to fill that gap between midfield and defence but he has stopped doing so for a while now. I know he used to use Kehl in such a way as a first team regular though. I wonder if we will see such a player being either brought in or moulded from what we already have. It was crying out for it this game to be honest.