Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread

[Manila Kop]

Yes nothing but positive reading about 5/6 young players is good hear. Lets just hope they come good here and not sold off.

Also refreshing to read a thread where our players aren't being slagged off every second post, hey? 

[Jack Slater]

I feel the new sub rule is a massive bonus for the Youth/Reserve players to get on the bench.

My prediction is that it will lead to many clubs (especially Chelsea and MU, but not just them) getting even bigger squads, so that they can ensure they have 7 experienced internationals on the bench at all times, even in the event of injuries and suspensions.

So it could make it even harder to come through the ranks of Youth Team and then Reserve Team.  (Not that many players are doing that at the moment at LFC, MUFC, CFC, to be fair)

[Crazyhorse7778]

Whats up with Nemeth at the moment? Haven't heard anything since his last little scoring rout - is he out injured?

Hes playing in an U19's international tournament in spain last time I heard.

[Jack Slater]

ha.
crossbar challenge failure = out of liverpool.

he isnt going to make the grade though, not because of that, he just isnt good enough.
he has been here for 3 years now and is no closer to getting a game.

I question the point of sending very young players out on loan.  Don't we back our coaches to be able to bring them on?  Wouldnt they learn more from our coaching, and playing for our reserves (against other PL standard reserves) than from 3rd tier coaches and matches against 3rd Tier opponents?

And some of the loanees don't even get first team games at the loan club. 

I'd say the only time a loan is really going to benefit a player is when they are already almost good enough for the PL, but are being kept out by an established star in the same position.  If they are then lent to a Tier 2 club (or even a PL club) then the manager can properly assess whether they are gonna make the grade, without dsrupting our own first team.

[Possibly it's different for goalkeepers and goalscorers.  I might accept that - for them - the benefit of getting competitive matches under the belt, and learning the tricks that opponents will pull in match situations, outweighs the loss of top level coaching.]

[ouestlereferee]

Did the reserves play yesterday?

no.  it was thursday i think when bruna scored his goal against everton.  they play again on monday tuesday.   it was the U18s that played yesterday - drawing 1-1 against stoke.

EDIT: tuesday (got me dates mixed up)

[ouestlereferee]

Whats up with Nemeth at the moment? Haven't heard anything since his last little scoring rout - is he out injured?

he was away with the hungarian u21s i think - and that had him out of the last couple of ressie games....

[ouestlereferee]

Also refreshing to read a thread where our players aren't being slagged off every second post, hey? 

i raise you jordy brouwer.

[Jack Slater]

Did the reserves play yesterday?

no.  it was thursday i think when bruna scored his goal against everton.  they play again on monday.   it was the U18s that played yesterday - drawing 1-1 against stoke.

Is the official site not reliable?  According to that we beat Bolton 3-0 last Monday, and play next (against Sunderland) on Tuesday.

They havent updated the league table though.  We're top, I believe.

[ouestlereferee]

My prediction is that it will lead to many clubs (especially Chelsea and MU, but not just them) getting even bigger squads, so that they can ensure they have 7 experienced internationals on the bench at all times, even in the event of injuries and suspensions.

So it could make it even harder to come through the ranks of Youth Team and then Reserve Team.  (Not that many players are doing that at the moment at LFC, MUFC, CFC, to be fair)

hang on.   Chelsea are about the oldest squad and the worst at bringing through youngsters around...  so they don't even try.

United will have the youngsters, as they always have done.  Ferguson has always very much had a first XI (with maybe 1/2 exceptions e.g. Neville or Brown, Anderson or Hargreaves (with Scholes)), 3 or 4 utility men/realistic developers e.g. O'Shea, Nani respectively - when faced with more than 1 or 2 injuries he's always used players like Pique or Simpson so I really don't see why changing to a 7 man bench will change things for Utd at all... if anything it gives more opportunities to the youngsters e.g. if they pick up 2 injuries at the back, then it would be O'Shea (firstly) and A.Youngster coming on rather than now, where he'd put on O'Shea and then have to shuffle around e.g. playing Hargreaves at RB etc...

So Chelsea it would probably make fuck all difference to (but they're useless at youth development anyway), and United it would probably aid their youth development.

Then comes us.  It is my belief that Rafa's setting us up for more youth development and youth progress, but it's most definitely not the case that it's certain - e.g. seeing Insua getting a run for the first team would have been a really good confirmation, but we haven't seen this and I'm still backing him based on other evidence.  So whilst I would love a 7-sub bench because we might see Insua or Pacheco on it, would I bet my house that Rafa just wouldn't fill it up with Voronin etc?  No.

[ouestlereferee]

I question the point of sending very young players out on loan.  Don't we back our coaches to be able to bring them on?  Wouldnt they learn more from our coaching, and playing for our reserves (against other PL standard reserves) than from 3rd tier coaches and matches against 3rd Tier opponents?

And some of the loanees don't even get first team games at the loan club. 

I'd say the only time a loan is really going to benefit a player is when they are already almost good enough for the PL, but are being kept out by an established star in the same position.  If they are then lent to a Tier 2 club (or even a PL club) then the manager can properly assess whether they are gonna make the grade, without dsrupting our own first team.

[Possibly it's different for goalkeepers and goalscorers.  I might accept that - for them - the benefit of getting competitive matches under the belt, and learning the tricks that opponents will pull in match situations, outweighs the loss of top level coaching.]

I wouldn't agree with this sentiment.  I get your point, but there's no substiute for experience.  The other issue is that, whilst we'd like it to be different, everyone who comes through our youth system (like United & WHU) is not good enough to play in the PL, so these players need to get shop windowed in the Championship / League One.

Even with players who may be Liverpool regulars in the future - Guthrie & Hobbs - are you honestly telling me you think their progress will be slower whilst on loan than if they had stayed in the ressies?

[Crazyhorse7778]

I just saw Mikel San Jose with the senior squad on SS1. Very interesting.

[ouestlereferee]

no.  it was thursday i think when bruna scored his goal against everton.  they play again on monday.   it was the U18s that played yesterday - drawing 1-1 against stoke.


Is the official site not reliable?  According to that we beat Bolton 3-0 last Monday, and play next (against Sunderland) on Tuesday.

They havent updated the league table though.  We're top, I believe.

you are correct (I got the Tuesday one wrong, sorry).  However the ressies also played on Thursday (I think), not in the RPL but in the Liverpool Senior Cup, when Gerardo Bruna scored his first goal....

[ouestlereferee]

I just saw Mikel San Jose with the senior squad on SS1. Very interesting.

at Chelsea?

[Crazyhorse7778]

at Chelsea?

Yes, he was getting off the team coach and walking towards the dressing room, just behind gerrard and lucas.

[Vintage Nerd]

I just saw Mikel San Jose with the senior squad on SS1. Very interesting.

i thought it was insua

[Crazyhorse7778]

i thought it was insua

Looked like San Jose to me, but I only saw him for a few seconds so I could be wrong.

[Vintage Nerd]

guess we`ll find out soon enough, intresting though, san jose is a centre back yeah?

[Crazyhorse7778]

guess we`ll find out soon enough, intresting though, san jose is a centre back yeah?

Yea, hes a CB

[jackh]

I just saw Mikel San Jose with the senior squad on SS1. Very interesting.

That was definitely him was it?   Wasn't sure who it was at the time...

[Vintage Nerd]

looked at pictures then, and im pretty sure it is san jose mate

[mulane]

Why would we need another centreback as a sub, isnt there carra,sami and skrtel! dont tell me they are gonna have the 3 of them on the starting team???

[Crazyhorse7778]

Why would we need another centreback as a sub, isnt there carra,sami and skrtel! dont tell me they are gonna have the 3 of them on the starting team???

Carra could be at right back again. Meaning we would need a CB on the bench.

[ouestlereferee]

would've thought a fullback or striker was more likely to get taken....

to clear up this debate...  how tall was the person in question?  similar to lucas or smaller and it would be insua or pacheco, stevieg or taller would be san jose....

[ouestlereferee]

Carra could be at right back again. Meaning we would need a CB on the bench.

finnan crocked?

[Vintage Nerd]

well taller.
i double checked it.
it was san jose.

[Crazyhorse7778]

would've thought a fullback or striker was more likely to get taken....

to clear up this debate...  how tall was the person in question?  similar to lucas or smaller and it would be insua or pacheco, stevieg or taller would be san jose....

It was definately San Jose, he was 6ft+.

[ouestlereferee]

It was definately San Jose, he was 6ft+.

no dissrespect to the player, but i would have bet on 5/6 ressies getting the nod before him today.  no reflection on san jose, just a reflection on the positions we're short of (e.g. fullback, striker) and player development (insua, plus i would have thought shoving jay spearing down the left or something like that would be a relatively conservaitve move (when it comes to introducign ressies against chelsea)....

[Crazyhorse7778]

no dissrespect to the player, but i would have bet on 5/6 ressies getting the nod before him today.  no reflection on san jose, just a reflection on the positions we're short of (e.g. fullback, striker) and player development (insua, plus i would have thought shoving jay spearing down the left or something like that would be a relatively conservaitve move (when it comes to introducign ressies against chelsea)....

Well, if I'm right, and Carra maintains his position at right back then we needed a backup CB on the bench.

IMO, San Jose is the best CB in the reserves, so it makes sense.

[ouestlereferee]

Well, if I'm right, and Carra maintains his position at right back then we needed a backup CB on the bench.

IMO, San Jose is the best CB in the reserves, so it makes sense.

carra's playing CB today....  hyypia must be injured.  agree san jose is the best cb in the ressies.  would have thought if rafa was planning to move carra to RB he wouldn't have let hobbs go on loan especially with the agger situation....

[Crazyhorse7778]

San Jose is on the bench, confirmed.

[lfcmaster]

san jose, spearing, insua, nemeth, pacheco, plesis
give them games this season

[ouestlereferee]

San Jose is on the bench, confirmed.

congratulations to him.  he must be the 4th regular ressie player to make the step up to the 1sts this season?   with hobbs, leto, & elzhar?

[.adam]

Bit surprised, would've thought Huth would be ahead of San Jose in the pecking order. Good work though lad, do us proud if you get on!

[Sarge]

Good stuff for San Jose.

[ouestlereferee]

Bit surprised, would've thought Huth would be ahead of San Jose in the pecking order. Good work though lad, do us proud if you get on!

because he used to play for Chelsea? 

And why do we have Ayala playing with the kids?  Surely he's better than that, but then again, are there many better than Argentina's record-breaking captain to be coaching our young defenders? 

[Jack Slater]

I wouldn't agree with this sentiment.  I get your point, but there's no substiute for experience.  The other issue is that, whilst we'd like it to be different, everyone who comes through our youth system (like United & WHU) is not good enough to play in the PL, so these players need to get shop windowed in the Championship / League One.

Even with players who may be Liverpool regulars in the future - Guthrie & Hobbs - are you honestly telling me you think their progress will be slower whilst on loan than if they had stayed in the ressies?

I don't disagree about the shop window point.  Besides, if they've decided that Antwi will definitely not make it, then it obviously makes sense to have him out on loan, coz there's no point wasting coaching time or wages on him.

But what I'm saying is that IF the club thinks that a 19 year old has a chance of being good enough for Liverpool's first team in two or three or four seasons' time, then he is too young to be out on loan.  I think he could learn more in the reserve squad.

Guthrie is an example of someone who has outgrown the reserves, but isnt yet good enough for Liverpool's First XI.  Like I said, that's the type of player that loans can benefit.  It can make him a better player.  And it helps LFC.  At worst, we can sell him for more money.  At best, we have someone who can make it at Anfield.

I think we may - possibly - have seen the last of Hobbs.  I'd make the same comments about him, as about Antwi (they're roughly the same age, although Hobbs is ahead in first team experience).  In other words, if we are sure that he aint gonna make it, then fair enough.  Loan him out, then sell him.  But before his 20th birthday, why not give him top level coaching and play him in the reserves?

[ouestlereferee]

I don't disagree about the shop window point.  Besides, if they've decided that Antwi will definitely not make it, then it obviously makes sense to have him out on loan, coz there's no point wasting coaching time or wages on him.

But what I'm saying is that IF the club thinks that a 19 year old has a chance of being good enough for Liverpool's first team in two or three or four seasons' time, then he is too young to be out on loan.  I think he could learn more in the reserve squad.

Guthrie is an example of someone who has outgrown the reserves, but isnt yet good enough for Liverpool's First XI.  Like I said, that's the type of player that loans can benefit.  It can make him a better player.  And it helps LFC.  At worst, we can sell him for more money.  At best, we have someone who can make it at Anfield.

I think we may - possibly - have seen the last of Hobbs.  I'd make the same comments about him, as about Antwi (they're roughly the same age, although Hobbs is ahead in first team experience).  In other words, if we are sure that he aint gonna make it, then fair enough.  Loan him out, then sell him.  But before his 20th birthday, why not give him top level coaching and play him in the reserves?

Not having a go, but I'd like you to explain this to me a bit more. 

I don't understand your reasoning on why it's ok to send Guthrie out on loan but not Hobbs?  I would have preferred to see Hobbs go to a PL club, just because I'd like to see him get experience against Keane, Berbatorv, Rooney, Tevez, Drogba, Anelka, Adebayor etc and evaluate him against such opposition.  Others have argued he's better off in a lower division when it comes to building confidence etc..

In any case I don't know if you can apply hard-and-fast rules to players at particular ages...  e.g. Carragher is older than Michael Owen, yet which player was better 10 years ago, and which is better now?

[Jack Slater]

You can't have hard and fast rules, I agree.

But Guthrie is playing a reasonable number of PL games and getting a bit of European experience too.  Obviously, LFC has decided that is beneficial, and it would be hard to argue.  The matches are much more skillful (as well as more competitive) than the Reserver League.  Maybe LFC's coaching is superior, but it is a worthwhile trade off for a 20 year old.

But Antwi and Hobbs are both younger.  Antwi is playing in the middle of Tier 3, and Hobbs at the bottom of Tier 2.  They will play in matches that are more competitive, but less skillful, than the reserve league.  At their age, I'd like to see them work on technical ability.  And just being around the Liverpool team ought to breed competitive instinct.  The coaching at Liverpool is bound to be superior, and it is a shame that two 19 year olds are missing out on it.

HOWEVER, I keep coming back to the point that what I'm saying about Antwi and Hobbs applies if and only if LFC sees them as long term prospects.  If we already think that they will not make it here, then we've done the right thing by farming them out.

[ouestlereferee]

But Antwi and Hobbs are both younger.  Antwi is playing in the middle of Tier 3, and Hobbs at the bottom of Tier 2.  They will play in matches that are more competitive, but less skillful, than the reserve league.  At their age, I'd like to see them work on technical ability.  And just being around the Liverpool team ought to breed competitive instinct.  The coaching at Liverpool is bound to be superior, and it is a shame that two 19 year olds are missing out on it.

Agree with your other points.  It is possible the coaching staff feeling their technical ability is good enough (I remember comments about Hobbs being a surprisingly good passer after the Bolton game), and they need to work on their concentration and tackling, maybe?  perhaps they will be re-loaned to a PL club next season to further develop?

These are possibilities, not certainties.   I think Hobbs can be a very good defender, and whilst I love to see youngsters coming through, he wouldn't be ideal for me.  The reason is his lack of pace, we've seen this year how offensively limited we are with Carra & Hyypia - granted we've been unlucky with injuries, but I like the idea of all of our players having pace, so even if we do get injuries, our system of play doesn't get too drastically affected...  Granted it's a bit idealistic, but perhaps Rafa etc think like this and they have already decided Hobbs won't be an LFC player in the future and they only signed him just to make money on the deal....   I've not seen much of Antwi so can't really comment on him...

[suede lady]

I seriously don't think Rafa would sign a 17-year old in order to make money of him. Especially a totally unknown one.