Topic: Curtis Jones

[Djozer]

He's the reason I'm not overly bothered whether we sign a midfielder or not.

[Asam]

Just want to bump this fella's thread. I think he's going to be wonderful for us this season.

Yep, one question; for those that have seen him progress from the youth set up, is he holding back on what he can do? I get the impression he’s got a lot more to his game in terms of creativity but he’s being more disciplined for us?

[tubby]

Yep, one question; for those that have seen him progress from the youth set up, is he holding back on what he can do? I get the impression he’s got a lot more to his game in terms of creativity but he’s being more disciplined for us?

He played further forward in the youth teams, usually as part of the front line, so he had more scope to take chances.  He's learning to be way more disciplined and tactical in midfield for the first team and it's making him a much better player.  But yeah, there's more to come.

[Knickers]

Yep, one question; for those that have seen him progress from the youth set up, is he holding back on what he can do? I get the impression he’s got a lot more to his game in terms of creativity but he’s being more disciplined for us?

I remember when he played in that Liverppol youth side during the Club World Cup he pulled off some absolutely ridiculous touches. Seems to have reined it in a bit while playing with the proper first team

[Asam]

He played further forward in the youth teams, usually as part of the front line, so he had more scope to take chances.  He's learning to be way more disciplined and tactical in midfield for the first team and it's making him a much better player.  But yeah, there's more to come.

Yeah, he seems to be one that has some flair, hope he continues to develop, he’s got a lot going for him

[Asam]

I remember when he played in that Liverppol youth side during the Club World Cup he pulled off some absolutely ridiculous touches. Seems to have reined it in a bit while playing with the proper first team

At times I think he’s the one who could take a bit more responsibility to break teams down, he’s got the talent to be a real game changer for us just needs to be more bold/decisive

[On Axis]

Rewatched that goal against Everton in the FA Cup recently. An absolutely perfect goal.

[Too early for flapjacks?]

Showed last season that he can do the disciplined side of the game. Hope he can bring out his "cheeky" side this year.

[.adam]

Watching him a bit last night and the main thing I'd like coached out of him is his inclination to 'chop it back' when he's trying to beat a man in the box.

At times when he is going shoulder to shoulder with a marker as he's driving into the box, rather than continue with the drive to get into a position to get a shot away, his inclination is to use his instep or outstep to kill the ball and stand up against his man.

The issue with this is it allows the defender to set himself in between the ball and the goal, adding another impediment to him getting a shot off.

Killing the ball and standing up the man has a time and a place but when he's in the box, I'd just like him to drive at the goal and get a shot away.

[RedForeverTT]

Rewatched that goal against Everton in the FA Cup recently. An absolutely perfect goal.

I hope he could go back to playing with his instincts. Players tend to get better with more experience but perhaps a poor run of results last season has damaged his confidence.

At the moment he is over thinking when the ball is at his feet.

[John C]

I'm all in on this

An inch taller and a year maturer makes him an excellent prospect.

[afc tukrish]

I hope he could go back to playing with his instincts. Players tend to get better with more experience but perhaps a poor run of results last season has damaged his confidence.

At the moment he is over thinking when the ball is at his feet.

The way we play, both attacking and defending, has very specific expectations both for closing down/pressing and for runs in behind/opening up and balls to play.

Instinct isn't a driving force in Klopp's attacking or defending systems.

I would argue that the more comfortable Curtis becomes with the expectations, the more he plays...

[mrantarctica]

That being said, I think he's about 6th choice in midfield for us with our starting lineup likely to be Hendo, Fab and Thiago with Naby and Ox the 2 most likely to be called up after that, and there's Milner ready to fill in where needed as well. In order to start games for us, either there's a few injuries and he's providing cover or he's added some strings to his bow that the other players don't have and at the moment though he's a young player, I don't see that he has anything over our starting 3, and his advantage over the next 2 is only fitness rather than technical or tactical ability. 

He is only 20 after all, and so I think if he can feature in the cup games, give a good account of himself in training and snap up opportunities during the season when they arise (and injuries will happen) then no reason why he can't make further progress on an already promising start to his career. In particular, some of the fringe lads like him, Caoimhin, Neco, Harvey and even Ibou need to be thinking if I'm not starting league games regularly then I need to be starting the FA and EFL games and driving the team to success in those competitions to show that they are good enough, and to then push for inclusion in the much bigger games.

[CraigDS]

He’s 4th choice if the run in last season was anything to go by as he was getting picked over both Keita and Ox.

He’ll get loads of minutes this season as those first choice 3 won’t play all the minutes (both through rotation and injuries) and he’s more than good enough to step in when asked to do so. I’ve a sneaky feeling he may even make himself a first pick before the end of the season.

[mrantarctica]

He’s 4th choice if the run in last season was anything to go by as he was getting picked over both Keita and Ox.

He’ll get loads of minutes this season as those first choice 3 won’t play all the minutes (both through rotation and injuries) and he’s more than good enough to step in when asked to do so. I’ve a sneaky feeling he may even make himself a first pick before the end of the season.

Hard to say how reliable last season was. Some of our midfielders were playing in defence and some of them just sat on the bench. It was unclear whether or not Naby and Ox had some lingering fitness issues as well that curtailed their freedom to play more regularly. Curtis definitely thrived given the opportunity and I hope he gets a similar chance again, but this time around both Ox and Naby are pretty fit. I think Curtis could well come into things around AFCON time where we'll lose Naby, Sadio and Mo (and at a very outside stretch though most probably no way - Matip back into it for Cameroon). Especially because he can fill in in a more wide advanced role, or stay in the midfield 3.

[Djozer]

It probably won't happen, but I'd be interested in seeing what he can do in the false nine role. Think he's got some attributes that would work well there. I just want to see him on the pitch really!

[macmanamanaman]

It probably won't happen, but I'd be interested in seeing what he can do in the false nine role. Think he's got some attributes that would work well there. I just want to see him on the pitch really!

Interesting shout.
If the Ox is tried there, then probably Curtis Jones might be equally or more suited ....

[royhendo]

So… what do we call this one then?

https://mobile.twitter.com/curtisjr_10/status/1422625829608112129

-

He’s a unit now - looks the size of Fabinho. At some point he’s going to realise he can dominate players physically as well as everything else. Spent the Bologna game scanning the layout of the pitch in between cultured cameos. *sigh*

[Clint Eastwood]

Big season for him. I was really impressed by the maturity of his performances last season. He's always looked like someone capable of spectacular moments but there were question marks over whether he was tactically disciplined enough to play in the first team. Last season he showed he's capable in that regard. He needs to strike a good balance now and try to influence games a bit more. If he can do that, I have no doubt he can be a big player for us.

[afc tukrish]

So… what do we call this one then?

https://mobile.twitter.com/curtisjr_10/status/1422625829608112129

-

He’s a unit now - looks the size of Fabinho. At some point he’s going to realise he can dominate players physically as well as everything else. Spent the Bologna game scanning the layout of the pitch in between cultured cameos. *sigh*

Vision might be his biggest asset, though, Roynaldo...

[scatman]

Anyone else think he's become more tenacious? Just felt that way watching the preaseason games

[Knight]

Interesting shout.
If the Ox is tried there, then probably Curtis Jones might be equally or more suited ....

That's actually a really interesting shout. He's physically got quite a bit there for him, decent size, quite quick. Technically he's obviously got it, close control and passing vision. Does he have the tactical understanding to move?

[vivabobbygraham]

Curtis spent last season learning a new position. I expect him to take off this year by adding a bit of his own personality to his game. He might take a lot of Gini's minutes but he won't be playing Gini's position. I don't expect anyone will, Gini was a trojan, impossible to emulate, maybe Thiago but further forward with more end product

[Henry Kissinger]

Anyone else think he's become more tenacious? Just felt that way watching the preaseason games

Tenacious C

[jepovic]

It probably won't happen, but I'd be interested in seeing what he can do in the false nine role. Think he's got some attributes that would work well there. I just want to see him on the pitch really!

I think he makes more sense there than Ox anyway. He's got the touch and close control needed, and he's pretty strong.

[BOBSCOUSE]

I think he makes more sense there than Ox anyway. He's got the touch and close control needed, and he's pretty strong.

Not strong as an ox though!

[Asam]

Someone posted an article about a new metric XT Expected threat, Jones is someone who is being highlighted as someone who can get to an elite level of threat, he’s got the capacity to improve alot from his existing base

[killer-heels]

Someone posted an article about a new metric XT Expected threat, Jones is someone who is being highlighted as someone who can get to an elite level of threat, he’s got the capacity to improve alot from his existing base

 Link?

[Pradan]

Link?

https://theathletic.com/2751525/2021/08/06/introducing-expected-threat-or-xt-the-new-metric-on-the-block/

[killer-heels]

https://theathletic.com/2751525/2021/08/06/introducing-expected-threat-or-xt-the-new-metric-on-the-block/

Thanks. Behind a pay wall though.

What does it say in regards to Jones and any current players that score highly on that metric?

[Djozer]

Thanks. Behind a pay wall though.

What does it say in regards to Jones and any current players that score highly on that metric?

It says Jack Grealish is bloody good, but that's no surprise. Hudson Odoi would be a good underrated (and homegrown) pick up for someone, especially if Chelsea keep on not playing him that much, although I suppose a consequence of that would be his limited minutes last season and the resulting limited sample size. Seems like Salah and Alexander Arnold are our best, Salah at carrying the ball and Trent at passing. Jones seems to be a decent all rounder, but maybe especially good at good at adding xT, which apparently means he's good at getting the ball to other players who can go on and threaten even more. I'm not entirely sober, so hopefully someone can synthesise it in a better way, but I think this is roughly the gist.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Link?

[Bobinhood]

So… what do we call this one then?

https://mobile.twitter.com/curtisjr_10/status/1422625829608112129

-

He’s a unit now - looks the size of Fabinho. At some point he’s going to realise he can dominate players physically as well as everything else. Spent the Bologna game scanning the layout of the pitch in between cultured cameos. *sigh*

That is obviously the Jones One Hopper what a hit  imagine you could one hop em like that at will-great weapon. fool every goalie, 35 yard wet day wonder strikes the whole bit. He is getting bigger all the time that lad. My baseline expectation with this kid is that he will mount a  very high level challenge in the next two or three years on trent for the unofficial official title of best scouse footballer in the world, with both of them just performing just madness's.

Its a lot to hope but also seems like coming true like a freight train. See how things go this is an exciting new season on hand. 

 

[Clayton Bigsby]

Expected threat?

I officially give up

[royhendo]

Thanks. Behind a pay wall though.

What does it say in regards to Jones and any current players that score highly on that metric?

Here you go.

You’re in a pub on a Saturday night, and you’ve just finished your drink. You’re three rounds down and it’s now your turn to get the lemonades in. You make your way to the bar, which is stacked with people. The left side of the bar is serving far quicker than the right, so you decide to go there.

In that moment, you’ve done some sort of calculation in your mind and decided: “go to the place which serves quickest”. You didn’t do a literal calculation — it’d be called xPints, if it were a metric — but you’ve subconsciously recognised that the left side is more efficient, more valuable than the other, to get served quickly.

That, roughly, is what expected threat is about. No, not lemonades or the pub, or that Harry Maguire chant that’s ringing in your ears, but the fact that certain spaces are more valuable than others.

The same is true on the football pitch…

…not all attacking actions are connected to a shot occurring, and xT is a way of zooming out a little further to see more of the game. The current public suite of analytical metrics are great at telling us who is attacking the opponent’s goal (goals, shots, expected goals) or helping to provide those chances to do so (assists, chances, expected assists) but looking at how the ball gets into those dangerous positions in the first place is missing.

And that’s the crux of what expected threat can tell us: what’s the chance of scoring in the current possession based on where the ball is now?

…how players increase their team’s chances of scoring from their carrying or passing. In fact, any movement of the ball between the different zones can be used to calculate the xT a player adds through their actions, such as crossing or even looking at passes received that pull the team further upfield. For now, though, these are removed as they skew heavily towards target men getting on the end of crosses and cross-heavy wingers and full-backs.

To start, we want to measure who’s consistently progressing the ball upfield, rather than providing a general level of danger through their play.

It’s worth a note here to say that this model is built on event data — passes, tackles, shots etc — but has no idea about the location of the other players on the pitch. Looking at individual examples like the above may prompt a “that doesn’t look right?” reaction, but in the aggregate, the numbers are far more reliable.

By looking at all of the xT increases thanks to a player’s completed passes and carries, we can illuminate the best ball progressors in the league, some of whom are predictable, but others perhaps a little underrated in their ability to move the ball forwards.

The chart below shows the xT per 90 that a player adds from their passes and carries in open play. Again, crosses and pass receptions are removed at this time, and only the positive xT is taken into account, as there are some actions (eg, most backwards and sideways passes) that reduce a team’s chances of scoring.

Where the Tim Watchkiss-presented Liverpudlian model went further was firstly on this: “(xT) has no idea about the location of the other players on the pitch”, and secondly in including off ball actions (positioning, movement, use of space). Our model factors those in so our boffins can infer things about how crafty a player is on and off the ball, how a combination works together, or how effective a one on one defender a player is.

But yeah - xT is basically how much impact a player has on a side’s ability to score, beyond just retrospectively looking at the actual goals.

[Knight]

So the additional level of detail this adds on top of already existing ball progression is it ranks ball progression according to his much additional threat any ball progressing action adds? So the ball that progressed the ball down the sideline into a cup de sac is less valuable than the ball that progresses the ball into the penalty box in the middle of the pitch? Very cool.

[Joff]

Expected threat?

I officially give up

Me too

[royhendo]

So the additional level of detail this adds on top of already existing ball progression is it ranks ball progression according to his much additional threat any ball progressing action adds? So the ball that progressed the ball down the sideline into a cup de sac is less valuable than the ball that progresses the ball into the penalty box in the middle of the pitch? Very cool.

Based on a grid, yeah. The Liverpool one factors in number of defending players in front of the ball carrier and all sorts though. This is where we have our advantage you would suspect.

[Welshred]

Expected threat?

I officially give up

We should make up an 'Expected bollocks' metric for things like this

[Sinyoro]

That's actually a really interesting shout. He's physically got quite a bit there for him, decent size, quite quick. Technically he's obviously got it, close control and passing vision. Does he have the tactical understanding to move?

I suggested this idea a year or two ago and still think he can do really well in this position. He can hold onto and shield the ball very well, is an excellent dribbler and knows where the goal is.

He can also effectively drift either side. The only aspect of his game tha needs improving on is the heading especially scoring headers.

The coaches are working to improve his overall game at the moment. Great prospect