Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[classycarra]

the difference in your sense of morality when it comes to Tories/Lib Dems compared to Corbyn is quite striking. Pile on Corbyn for anything you can for 4 years and label him an anti Semite but you can forgive and defend people who actively fail to vote in favour of gay rights and openly disagree with gay marriage.

You must be chuffed with Boris. And if that's bringing the thread downhill then take a look at the number of smears against Corbyn and "corbynites" over the last few pages.

I think you're mistaking him correcting an incorrect assertion/use of the word "block" with him endorsing views. Might be wrong.

Can you quote the 'smears' please, instead of alluding to them? It's not clear what you have a problem with, but you aren't letting people know which means they don't have a chance to argue their case against your suggestion they are smears

[Sangria]

Assuming that Brexit is somehow averted, it seems clear to me that there must be a radical rethink about the Union. It should be four equal partners moving forward, with most things devolved to each of the four nations. Keeping the Union means that things like defense (a huge potential problem, particularly for the UK if the Union breaks up) does not become a stumbling block. There will still need to be some redistribution of wealth to grease the wheels. I think it could be done if enough people (on all sides) kept an open mind. I'm fooling myself, aren't I!?

Any change to the constitution must be agreed to by a majority of the nations. Scotland must have as big a say as England.

[Sangria]

the difference in your sense of morality when it comes to Tories/Lib Dems compared to Corbyn is quite striking. Pile on Corbyn for anything you can for 4 years and label him an anti Semite but you can forgive and defend people who actively fail to vote in favour of gay rights and openly disagree with gay marriage.

You must be chuffed with Boris. And if that's bringing the thread downhill then take a look at the number of smears against Corbyn and "corbynites" over the last few pages.

My main issue with Corbyn can be found in a Labourlist report and in Hansard voting records. Don't know if that counts as smears.

[TepidT2O]

A salutary warning about jumping on the Owen Jones band wagon today....

Tories may not be people I’d ever vote for or would want to hang out with, but that doesn’t make them bigots and homophobes (although some are of course).

It still makes me scratch my head that they were the party to bring about gay marriage..

[ShakaHislop]

the difference in your sense of morality when it comes to Tories/Lib Dems compared to Corbyn is quite striking. Pile on Corbyn for anything you can for 4 years and label him an anti Semite but you can forgive and defend people who actively fail to vote in favour of gay rights and openly disagree with gay marriage.

You must be chuffed with Boris. And if that's bringing the thread downhill then take a look at the number of smears against Corbyn and "corbynites" over the last few pages.

What I defended Farron and Lee from was the assertion that they were good examples of people who had blocked gay rights legislation. It's only since then that the goalposts have been moved and now Farron and Lee are being criticised for not voting in favour of such legislation, or for related comments they have made.

I don't see what any of this has to do with my views on Corbyn? Am I immoral because I've criticised Corbyn more, on a range of issues, than I have Farron or Lee specifically?

No idea why you've made that "chuffed with Boris" comment either. Have I not maintained an adequate Corbyn:Johnson criticism ratio or something?

[paddysour]

You're missing my point. I'm not blaming the EU for the state of this country. I'm saying the abject state of this country occurred whilst we were members. They can't be divorced.

And so although the EU can do things to keep the Tories honest CLEARLY its not enough is it? Because fucking look around yourself.

Therefore, I cannot subscribe to the convenient opinion that remaining in the EU will fix a lot of the issues currently going on. Because the EU was present when the issues were being manifested.

If you could give me no EU membership but a Labour government in its current iteration for 20 years I wouldn't think twice about which one to chose.

This is a bit of a bizarre stance. It's like having no money, and deciding you may as well bin your house because it doesn't provide food.

The Tories are absolutely the problem. But wrecking our economy for a generation does not help with that whatsoever. Especially when they'd somehow blame Labour for it anyway and the people would lap it up.

[killer-heels]

I'm torn on the Lib Dems. On the one hand they are now apparently fine with just revoking article 50 without a referendum if they were in power, but on the other hand they don't believe that anything at all would justify haveing a second indyref. Even a majority for the SNP in Holyrood with a clear manifesto commitment to one.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17903434.willie-rennie-indyref2-blocked-even-snp-greens-win-holyrood-election/

They are still probably the best option for those of you in England who want to stop Brexit but it doesn't stop the fact they are a bunch of disingenuous c*nts who only believe in democracy when it suits them.

Absolutely laughable comments by that Lib Dem.

But then again they have always been a lying set of c*nts.

[Banquo's Ghost]

The last few pages demonstrate why Labour in its current form will never form a majority government again.

I repeat what I have written several times before: The purists must understand that to form a government, Labour will have to gain votes from people that have previously voted Conservative and Liberal Democrat. (Let's not even consider the challenge of getting voters back from the SNP when Scotland is crucial to a Labour majority government).

If you constantly insult them for ever having considered another party than Labour, do you really think that will help?

[Ghost Town]

EDITED: Hell, I'm missing my daily dose of Parliament

Apparently it was just a joke...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-cummings-boris-johnson-brexit-prorogue-suspend-parliament-joke-a9106096.html



Next thing they'll be joking about carting opponents off to re-education camps

Yep, they'll make a 'joke' about it and watch carefully how people respond. If it goes down badly they'll just pretend they were joking; but if it garners interest...

 

[Ghost Town]

That's epic!

[Zeb]

So what's happening now. Lost track for a few days and now they are saying about a deal to be done?

'There's deffo going to be a deal just so long as the EU compromises on everything Johnson tells them he wants' is going to be the theme of the next few weeks.

"There can’t be an agreement without a backstop, that is the fundamental position and everything begins from that. If you don’t want to talk about that, that means you don’t want to talk at all, and that there’s nothing to talk about." - President of the European Parliament, David-Maria Sassoli, via Beeb's Katya Adler a couple of days ago.

[Zeb]

I'm torn on the Lib Dems. On the one hand they are now apparently fine with just revoking article 50 without a referendum if they were in power, but on the other hand they don't believe that anything at all would justify haveing a second indyref. Even a majority for the SNP in Holyrood with a clear manifesto commitment to one.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17903434.willie-rennie-indyref2-blocked-even-snp-greens-win-holyrood-election/

They are still probably the best option for those of you in England who want to stop Brexit but it doesn't stop the fact they are a bunch of disingenuous c*nts who only believe in democracy when it suits them.

Have own issues with Lib Dems but I can see an underlying logic to a position where you see Scottish (and Welsh) nationalism, leading to independence calls, stemming from similar populist roots as that which fuels what is going on with Brexit. A similar take would be to see Labour as more recently coming from a similar place. Not commenting on whether it's right/wrong/fair/unfair just that it doesn't strike me as quite as contrary a view as some might take it for those who take such a view to be opposed to enabling any of them. Easy enough to say 'no' though when you're fairly certain that you'll, at best, only have a relatively minor role in needing to patch stuff back up later if your position is followed.

[Devon Red]

How about instead of all this circular whataboutery we agree that all parties are problematic and flawed but in our electoral system we need to vote for whoever is best placed to beat the Tories and Farageists.

[Alan_X]

Does that still work when he did introduce the bill he said he would doing a similar thing? Bit of a difference between "Labour were all up for passing the SNP bill because it was better" (they weren't but reasonable debate on merits of proposals) and "Gyimah's a homophobe for wanting stronger checks on precise nature of historic offences covered".

edit: Gyimah explaining why Tories, Labour leadership, and Lib Dems wanted another approach: https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/10/23/sam-gyimah-op-ed-turings-law-is-going-ahead-as-promised/

Thanks for posting that. Top quote from the article:

"The Government supports the principles behind Mr Nicolson’s Bill but it could not support how these proposals would work in practice.

On the face of it, blanket pardons for the living seem like a straightforward and fair way to deliver justice but, however well-intentioned Mr Nicolson is, this Bill is ill-thought out and potentially damaging.

The problem arises because the historic offence of “gross indecency” also covers acts that are still crimes today – such as sex with someone under the age of 16 and non-consensual sex.

Gymiah talked out Nicholson's bill because it would have effectively granted pardons to paedophiles and rapists.

Gymiah on the day Turing's Law gained rotal assent:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/31/uk-issues-posthumous-pardons-thousands-gay-men-alan-turing-law

[Alan_X]

I know the EU can't stop it. That's the point.

The EU in all their divinity can't prevent the tories from doing all the damage they've done the past decade. So why should I belive that remaining is by far the biggest issue of the day? Because if we remain then the tories will and can still just continue to enrich the rich. EU subsidies or not.

Seat belts won't stop me from being injured or dying if I drive drunk at 100mph. Let's get rid of seat belts and all car safety laws...

[rob1966]

I know the EU can't stop it. That's the point.

The EU in all their divinity can't prevent the tories from doing all the damage they've done the past decade. So why should I belive that remaining is by far the biggest issue of the day? Because if we remain then the tories will and can still just continue to enrich the rich. EU subsidies or not.

We are fighting for the advantages the EU gives us, the workers rights protections, maternity and paternity leave, paid holidays, the freedom to move people and goods, the standards that stop our kids losing eyes to shoddy toy manufacture, the links to the European police databases, the funding that has regenerated Liverpool, Manchester and other places in the UK - the funding that helped Nissan set up in Sunderland. These are all things worth fighting to keep, we will have them no matter who rules us.

[Red Viper]

Wait, people in here are seriously considering voting Lib Dem? Good grief.

[Devon Red]

Wait, people in here are seriously considering voting Lib Dem? Good grief.

If you lived in a constituency which was a Tory/Lib Dem marginal would you seriously consider not voting Lib Dem?

[filopastry]

Wait, people in here are seriously considering voting Lib Dem? Good grief.

Yep, after being called a Red Tory for long enough I thought being called a Yellow Tory would be a nice change of pace.

[Red Viper]

If you lived in a constituency which was a Tory/Lib Dem marginal would you seriously consider not voting Lib Dem?

Tactically voting for them to keep the Tories out is an entirely different thing from choosing to vote for them because you don't like Labour right now

[Red Viper]

I disagree with Reina on the weight he puts on EU membership as I think it's more important than he makes out but I agree with him on his stance about the Lib Dems. Fuck those guys to be honest. Some very short memories on here clearly.

[filopastry]

I disagree with Reina on the weight he puts on EU membership as I think it's more important than he makes out but I agree with him on his stance about the Lib Dems. Fuck those guys to be honest. Some very short memories on here clearly.

Some even shorter ones on what is going on in Labour at present, let's just agree to disagree on this one.

It's a pretty bad comment on how I feel about the other parties now that while I felt pissed at the LDs and thought they were utterly finished after the coaltion years they now like the major party that has shafted me the least recently.

Voted Labour in 2017, got told that was a vote to deliver Brexit by the delighful Gardiner, can also not ignore institutional anti-semitism within Labour anymore than I could ignore instituional islamaphobia in the Tories, and just to add insult to injury I have a momentum-bot as my Labour candidate now.

Each to their own in any case we all have the right to make our own voting decisions

[Circa1892]

When push comes to shove I will PROBABLY still vote Labour as I have an excellent local MP from the moderate wing of the Party. That said, it's 50-50 at the moment. If I had some Momentum shite like O'Mara or Pidcock no chance would I put my cross anywhere near them.

[Devon Red]

Tactically voting for them to keep the Tories out is an entirely different thing from choosing to vote for them because you don't like Labour right now

Sure, but the thing is most of us will be in this position one way or the other. What I find frustrating about the arguments going on between Lib Dem and Labour supporters is that most of the time they are missing one crucial bit of data; where they live. This one piece of info should be the deciding factor in how we all vote, but it's hardly ever mentioned. We should just forget about theoretical preferences and stop bickering over details. If Labour are most likely to beat the Tory candidate then vote Labour, if the Lib Dems are most likely then vote Lib Dem, same for Greens, Plaid, SNP etc. In 3-way or even 4-way seats it's tougher but a bit of research can normally clear things up. In rock solid safe seats then a) be absolutely certain it is a rock solid safe seat in these strange times and then b) vote your preference.

I know that there will be occasional exceptions to this rule, but apply common sense and weigh options against the likely alternative.

I doubt that the remain/referendum parties will get their acts together to cooperate so we are going to have to do it for them by hammering home the message that our shitty electoral system means we can't be precious or purist, we have to be practical.

[Welshred]

I disagree with Reina on the weight he puts on EU membership as I think it's more important than he makes out but I agree with him on his stance about the Lib Dems. Fuck those guys to be honest. Some very short memories on here clearly.

So you think that anyone who votes Lib Dem is a Tory even if they've previously voted Labour in every GE they've been able to?

[No666]

According to Heidi Allen, she's optimistic the Remain Alliance will be operating at the next GE. (Though she's somewhat naive, I have to add.) & of course, Labour isn't a part of the Remain Alliance. Yougov did a poll last week asking the pertinent questions on this - how would you vote if Lib Dem/Labour best placed to win against Tories; even, how would you vote if the Lib Dems ran their selected candidate against Allen. Be interested to know who commissioned it.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I disagree with Reina on the weight he puts on EU membership as I think it's more important than he makes out but I agree with him on his stance about the Lib Dems. Fuck those guys to be honest. Some very short memories on here clearly.

Aren't you more angry that a load of people that have never voted anything but Labour all their lives feel like they can't vote for the party they have voted for all their lives?

[stevo7]

In South Liverpool we are blessed with excellent pro-remain Labour MP's - No such much in North Liverpool.
If I was in a Lib/Lab marginal with brexit leaning Labour MP I'd vote Liberal.

[Nobby Reserve]

When push comes to shove I will PROBABLY still vote Labour as I have an excellent local MP from the moderate wing of the Party. That said, it's 50-50 at the moment. If I had some Momentum shite like O'Mara or Pidcock no chance would I put my cross anywhere near them.

Does the Labour manifesto not come into it, then?

 

The 2017 manifesto was hardly revolutionary, fitting between 'centre-left' and 'moderate-left'

Most of the policies - including the renationalisation of essential utilities - were policies accepted by all parties until that bitch The Thatcher and her government of spivs realised their wealthy paymasters could make a killing through privatisation, with us consumers and the employees of the utilities paying a hefty subsequent price.

[Cpt_Reina]

Seat belts won't stop me from being injured or dying if I drive drunk at 100mph. Let's get rid of seat belts and all car safety laws...

I'm saying replacing the driver might actually be the bigger concern, seeing as they keep crashing the car.

[Nobby Reserve]

Sure, but the thing is most of us will be in this position one way or the other. What I find frustrating about the arguments going on between Lib Dem and Labour supporters is that most of the time they are missing one crucial bit of data; where they live. This one piece of info should be the deciding factor in how we all vote, but it's hardly ever mentioned. We should just forget about theoretical preferences and stop bickering over details. If Labour are most likely to beat the Tory candidate then vote Labour, if the Lib Dems are most likely then vote Lib Dem, same for Greens, Plaid, SNP etc. In 3-way or even 4-way seats it's tougher but a bit of research can normally clear things up. In rock solid safe seats then a) be absolutely certain it is a rock solid safe seat in these strange times and then b) vote your preference.

I know that there will be occasional exceptions to this rule, but apply common sense and weigh options against the likely alternative.

I doubt that the remain/referendum parties will get their acts together to cooperate so we are going to have to do it for them by hammering home the message that our shitty electoral system means we can't be precious or purist, we have to be practical.

 

I agree completely.

I'd hold my nose and vote Lib Dem in a heartbeat if it was a Tory-Lib Dem battle seat.

And I'm left-of-centre.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I'm saying replacing the driver might actually be the bigger concern, seeing as they keep crashing the car.

No they keep deliberately crashing into the barrier. Once the barrier is removed then they'll deliberately drive off the cliff.

[Elmo!]

I'm saying replacing the driver might actually be the bigger concern, seeing as they keep crashing the car.

Doesn't matter who is driving me, I'd still want to wear a seatbelt.

[rob1966]

Sure, but the thing is most of us will be in this position one way or the other. What I find frustrating about the arguments going on between Lib Dem and Labour supporters is that most of the time they are missing one crucial bit of data; where they live. This one piece of info should be the deciding factor in how we all vote, but it's hardly ever mentioned. We should just forget about theoretical preferences and stop bickering over details. If Labour are most likely to beat the Tory candidate then vote Labour, if the Lib Dems are most likely then vote Lib Dem, same for Greens, Plaid, SNP etc. In 3-way or even 4-way seats it's tougher but a bit of research can normally clear things up. In rock solid safe seats then a) be absolutely certain it is a rock solid safe seat in these strange times and then b) vote your preference.

I know that there will be occasional exceptions to this rule, but apply common sense and weigh options against the likely alternative.

I doubt that the remain/referendum parties will get their acts together to cooperate so we are going to have to do it for them by hammering home the message that our shitty electoral system means we can't be precious or purist, we have to be practical.

I got involved in the vote swap at the last but one GE. Kate Green is my MP, very safe Labour seat, so I vote swapped with a Green in Brighton, marginal seat and Labour won the seat down there. I had no worries about voting Green as I knew Labour where getting a vote they normally wouldn't have had.

[classycarra]

I'm saying replacing the driver might actually be the bigger concern, seeing as they keep crashing the car.

But then the payments on the car get tougher to pay, and the driver has to downsize to a bike

(am I doing this right?)

[Jiminy Cricket]

Any change to the constitution must be agreed to by a majority of the nations. Scotland must have as big a say as England.

But of course, Each nation would need to agree to the new Union. Otherwise, it is not a union.

[Dr. Beaker]

I'm almost tempted to vote Tory as my MP is one of the sainted twenty-one , Stephen Hammond known affectionately as 'bomb 'ead' by his mates. 

[Cpt_Reina]

No they keep deliberately crashing into the barrier. Once the barrier is removed then they'll deliberately drive off the cliff.

Excellent, so you're content to keep crashing in to the barrier and footing the bill for the repairs?

I have some great news for you if so.

[eddymunster]

Excellent, so you're content to keep crashing in to the barrier and footing the bill for the repairs?

I have some great news for you if so.

What are you on about? You're making no sense.

[Cpt_Reina]

What are you on about? You're making no sense.

The metaphor has jumped the shark, but what Andy has done has further endorsed my point.

He's saying that as long as we have the seatbelt of the EU in place then having the Tories crashing the car regularly isnt as much of an issue.

But...it is.

Because we end up footing the bill to get the car back on the road every fucking time they do it. Seat belt or not what we really need is someone who will stop short of crashing the car in the first place.

Which clearly isn't going to be the Tories or the Lib Dems, EU or no EU.