Author Topic: Nat Phillips (Read 236908 times)

Eeyore · « **Reply #1560 on:** April 15, 2021, 02:39:31 am »

Quote from: B0151? on April 15, 2021, 02:29:39 am

It just seems a bit pointless to drone on about unless people are suggesting he should be first choice CB next season. People are praising him with the awareness of both our and his situation. At the very best people are saying he should be 4th choice next season.

I'm not saying that doesn't mean you're not allowed to say anything critical about his performances like, just some people seem bothered about people praising him

No people were saying he was practically flawless tonight. Then we have people criticizing Klopp for not playing him earlier. For me Nat has come on leaps and bounds precisely because Jurgen took his time and coached Nat to be able to cope with our system.

MinnyRed · « **Reply #1561 on:** April 15, 2021, 02:52:31 am »

Quote from: Al 666 on April 15, 2021, 02:24:30 am

You cannot blame a lack of pressing for getting done by a 60 yard straight ball. If there is no pressure on the ball then you drop. It is as simple as that.

Fucks sake dude. Mane did this to sule and rafinha two years ago. Why/how? bc Mane is boss and Munich couldn't press vvd. Also for fucks sake Leeds (LEEDS) did this to VVD and Gomez this fucking season.

Nat is both not our top choice CB and one of a few who can hold their heads up on both performances in this tie.

Eeyore · « **Reply #1562 on:** April 15, 2021, 03:00:13 am »

Quote from: MinnyRed on April 15, 2021, 02:52:31 am

Fucks sake dude. Mane did this to sule and rafinha two years ago. Why/how? bc Mane is boss and Munich couldn't press vvd. Also for fucks sake Leeds (LEEDS) did this to VVD and Gomez this fucking season.

Nat is both not our top choice CB and one of a few who can hold their heads up on both performances in this tie.

When did Leeds play a straight ball that resulted in our defence being outpaced ?

keyop · « **Reply #1563 on:** April 15, 2021, 08:25:59 am »

Quote from: JackWard33 on April 15, 2021, 12:28:35 am

I've become convinced his mistakes are invisible to most on this forum. Don't think he's played a game for us yet where he hasn't allowed a huge chance by either being out of position or getting turned.

No-one's mistakes are invisible - we all see them. It's just some of us don't micro analyse everything as part of a confirmation bias of our opinions on a player. We see the good and the bad, and when its mostly good then we give credit and support where it's due. Everyone has made mistakes this season - many of them significantly more experienced in this team and at this level than Nat.

It's easy to find fault in a player if that's all someone is looking for. But a much fairer way to make judgements is to give a player the benefit of the doubt, with context and perspective, whilst putting aside personal views of whether you want them in the team or not. That seems a difficult path to tread for some on here.

JackWard33 · « **Reply #1564 on:** April 15, 2021, 08:55:14 am »

Quote from: keyop on April 15, 2021, 08:25:59 am

No-one's mistakes are invisible - we all see them. It's just some of us don't micro analyse everything as part of a confirmation bias of our opinions on a player. We see the good and the bad, and when its mostly good then we give credit and support where it's due. Everyone has made mistakes this season - many of them significantly more experienced in this team and at this level than Nat.

It's easy to find fault in a player if that's all someone is looking for. But a much fairer way to make judgements is to give a player the benefit of the doubt, with context and perspective, whilst putting aside personal views of whether you want them in the team or not. That seems a difficult path to tread for some on here.

This is a fair point in general and people definitely do this.
The opposite phenomena of people and podcasts praising him to the rafters while hand waving his mistakes is similarly frustrating

Confirmation bias works both ways of course and with centre backs and keepers there’s a particular problem as their mistakes do define them - theyre professionals and they’re supposed to make clearances and saves so it’s the one or two times they don’t that or they make a positioning mistake or whatever that dictates their level.
The best example of this in a game is Lovren vs City when we won 3-1 - he had a decent second half because we were sitting deep and he got to make a ton of clearances but this dismissed his first half performance where he missed tackles and lost forward players in the box a couple of times to give up huge chances which another day cost us the game

Anyway - no doubt he’s applying himself and he had a generally good game last night, but it’s brutal at the top level and his mistakes mean it probably wasn’t a good performance (if we’re not grading on a curve)
But I’ve been sucked in here to a discussion with no positive conclusion - it’s very very hard to play centre back in our system and it exposes all but the best

na fir dearg · « **Reply #1565 on:** April 15, 2021, 09:16:00 am »

I thought he was brilliant last night, we could see his limitations with pace but in the air he was completely dominant and he played some decent ball on the floor too, more than anything he was trying to make something happen

El Lobo · « **Reply #1566 on:** April 16, 2021, 12:29:33 pm »

He keeps showing he's got more strings to his bow than we imagined. Played some really good passes against Real....but yeah of course still a stark difference to the likes of VVD, Gomez and Matip obviusly

jepovic · « **Reply #1567 on:** April 16, 2021, 01:19:12 pm »

I'd rather keep him than Kabak. With VVD back and one quality CB recruited, I think we only need one of them. They're young and should have a reasonable chance to play. Philips has improved quickly here, but he wouldn't have done that on the bench.

Eeyore · « **Reply #1568 on:** April 16, 2021, 01:21:43 pm »

His distribution was very good the other night. He has some big challenges coming up over the next month or so though. We are playing a lot of teams who have genuine pace upfront and who will drop off and look to exploit the right side of our defence.

rushyman · « **Reply #1569 on:** April 16, 2021, 11:03:13 pm »

For me the highlight of an obviously disappointing season

Black Bull Nova · « **Reply #1570 on:** April 16, 2021, 11:37:45 pm »

Quote from: Al 666 on April 15, 2021, 03:00:13 am

When did Leeds play a straight ball that resulted in our defence being outpaced ?

Just look at the first 2 Leeds goals, especially the 2nd and imagine what a caning Nat would have got on here had it been him involved

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3A6Yjt81t4

Fromola · « **Reply #1571 on:** April 17, 2021, 09:08:05 am »

Quote from: Black Bull Nova on April 16, 2021, 11:37:45 pm

Just look at the first 2 Leeds goals, especially the 2nd and imagine what a caning Nat would have got on here had it been him involved

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3A6Yjt81t4

We've been done by the ball in behind all season regardless of who is at the back. It's the nature of playing a high line. The whole shape of the team needs to be spot on for it to work. When it does work it's great which we've seen at times this season and throughout last season.

Villa had an absolute field day in the 7-2 and we had Van Dijk and Gomez at the back for that one (two of the fastest defenders around).

Eeyore · « **Reply #1572 on:** April 17, 2021, 11:02:45 am »

Quote from: Black Bull Nova on April 16, 2021, 11:37:45 pm

Just look at the first 2 Leeds goals, especially the 2nd and imagine what a caning Nat would have got on here had it been him involved

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3A6Yjt81t4

Neither of them show our defence being out paced though. For the first Trent gets goal side and then is beaten by a fantastic touch. Second VVD is 5 yards goal side and tries to be too clever.

They simply aren't in the same League as Nat getting done over the top in both legs versus Madrid. In the two goals v Leeds players get back goal side. Players just run away from Nat.

Eeyore · « **Reply #1573 on:** April 17, 2021, 11:12:14 am »

Quote from: Fromola on April 17, 2021, 09:08:05 am

We've been done by the ball in behind all season regardless of who is at the back. It's the nature of playing a high line. The whole shape of the team needs to be spot on for it to work. When it does work it's great which we've seen at times this season and throughout last season.

Villa had an absolute field day in the 7-2 and we had Van Dijk and Gomez at the back for that one (two of the fastest defenders around).

There is a huge difference between holding a line and getting beaten by well-timed runs and just being done for pace. Nat against Callum Wilson, twice v Madrid and Rhys getting done time and time again United are quite different.

Nat is exceptional in the air and has come on leaps and bounds but a couple of times a game he will get there too late and get spun when he tries to press and continually gets done over the top. It isn't his fault he isn't quick enough to cope with fast strikers and doesn't have the experience to counteract his lack of pace with better positioning.

The issue is during the run in we are coming up against teams that will play a low block and try to exploit the right-hand side of our defence.

darragh85 · « **Reply #1574 on:** April 17, 2021, 10:57:51 pm »

could see Atletico Madrid making a bid for him in summer. his stock has risen quite a bit. depends on whether we will want to keep him or not.

Eeyore · « **Reply #1575 on:** April 17, 2021, 11:20:32 pm »

Quote from: darragh85 on April 17, 2021, 10:57:51 pm

Could see Atlético Madrid making a bid for him in summer. His stock has risen quite a bit. Depends on whether we will want to keep him or not.

I would love you to detail the specific qualities that Nat posses that would attract Atlético.

67CherryRed · « **Reply #1576 on:** April 17, 2021, 11:24:38 pm »

Quote from: Al 666 on April 17, 2021, 11:20:32 pm

I would love you to detail the specific qualities that Nat posses that would attract Atlético.

He can keep Trippier off Whatsapp.

TepidT2O · « **Reply #1577 on:** April 18, 2021, 09:38:53 am »

This is a really interesting article

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nat-phillips-the-boss-sees-himself-in-me-first-division-brain-third-division-feet-l0hxp0dbs

By no means your average footballler

BeingJohnMarkovic · « **Reply #1578 on:** April 18, 2021, 10:19:04 am »

Quote from: TepidT2O on April 18, 2021, 09:38:53 am

This is a really interesting article

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nat-phillips-the-boss-sees-himself-in-me-first-division-brain-third-division-feet-l0hxp0dbs

By no means your average footballler

Any chance of an old copy and paste job for us non-subscribers?

TepidT2O · « **Reply #1579 on:** April 18, 2021, 11:25:56 am »

Quote from: BeingJohnMarkovic on April 18, 2021, 10:19:04 am

Any chance of an old copy and paste job for us non-subscribers?

Oh... it was free for me...

Jookie · « **Reply #1580 on:** April 18, 2021, 12:18:15 pm »

Quote from: darragh85 on April 17, 2021, 10:57:51 pm

could see Atletico Madrid making a bid for him in summer. his stock has risen quite a bit. depends on whether we will want to keep him or not.

This is a wild shout!

Phillips has improved massively the last few months. He has some really key strengths that we've utilised. He also has some obvious weaknesses. Ones that are potentially amplified in our system and what we ask our centre backs to do.

Hard to knock Phillips though and I wouldn't be too surprised if he stays around beyond this summer. I doubt it'll be anything more than as a 5th choice option and a homegrown player. That 5th choice option might be useful given 3 players are returning from long term injury. Think it's Kabak or Phillips for that role personally.

If we decide to sell Phillips I'd personally be hugely surprised if its the likes of Atletico who are lining up to buy him. I'd be thinking lower half Premier League - Burnley, Brighton, one of the promised teams - that would be interested if the fee was <10M.

Bend It Like Aurelio · « **Reply #1581 on:** April 18, 2021, 06:29:07 pm »

Quote from: Al 666 on April 16, 2021, 01:21:43 pm

His distribution was very good the other night. He has some big challenges coming up over the next month or so though. We are playing a lot of teams who have genuine pace upfront and who will drop off and look to exploit the right side of our defence.

I think this whole pace thing is overrated. It’s not pace, it’s anticipation that’s more of an issue. If you look at the likes of Gomez, who has bags of pace, he gets done in too in some 1v1 situations.

Slower CB’s have coped with playing a high line for years by learning how to anticipate developing situations and boxing out the attackers from dangerous areas. I think this is something Nat has coped better with as he has played, he needs the time to do it in my opinion.

Perhaps the verdict of him will become clearer at the end of this season.

thaddeus · « **Reply #1582 on:** April 18, 2021, 09:51:50 pm »

Quote from: Bend It Like Aurelio on April 18, 2021, 06:29:07 pm

I think this whole pace thing is overrated. It’s not pace, it’s anticipation that’s more of an issue. If you look at the likes of Gomez, who has bags of pace, he gets done in too in some 1v1 situations.

Slower CB’s have coped with playing a high line for years by learning how to anticipate developing situations and boxing out the attackers from dangerous areas. I think this is something Nat has coped better with as he has played, he needs the time to do it in my opinion.

Perhaps the verdict of him will become clearer at the end of this season.

I'm not disagreeing but recovery pace alongside learning to anticipate the play is certainly useful. VVD is a good example as he anticipates the game so well that he rarely breaks a sweat but also has it in him to chase down almost any forward in world football when he really has to (not that I want to compare Nat to VVD as it's an unfair comparison - more that being less mobile has its limitations).

The Premier League has a lot of defenders that would not be playing at this level without their pace. Rudiger immediately springs to mind as his decision making is all over the place at times.

Bend It Like Aurelio · « **Reply #1583 on:** April 19, 2021, 02:59:19 am »

Quote from: thaddeus on April 18, 2021, 09:51:50 pm

I'm not disagreeing but recovery pace alongside learning to anticipate the play is certainly useful. VVD is a good example as he anticipates the game so well that he rarely breaks a sweat but also has it in him to chase down almost any forward in world football when he really has to (not that I want to compare Nat to VVD as it's an unfair comparison - more that being less mobile has its limitations).

The Premier League has a lot of defenders that would not be playing at this level without their pace. Rudiger immediately springs to mind as his decision making is all over the place at times.

Players in the PL have many limitations and downsides in general, I think that’s just a fact. I could turn this around and say a lot of CB’s bread and butter is dealing with the aerial threat, and they do it well, and are compensated handsomely for it. Maguire, he of the 80 million pound variety, is a good example of that. Can somewhat handle a ball, but turns like an Asian container ship.

On the other hand, having pace isn’t necessarily a trait that a good CB must have. I find that in many respects, it’s a priority that is well down the list of importance for me. Why people think it’s such a problem in our team is the idea of recovery pace required because of our high line. But a lot of that has to do with paying attention to who’s playing level with you and what path you take to intercept. You can see that Phillips has been improving in that respect, much like Matip had since he’s arrived at our club. The latter isn’t exactly the fastest player either, but he knows how to push the attacker outside, cut off his stronger foot, and when to go to ground and get a tackle. But it wasn’t always this easy for him before, injury or no injury.

I will always remember players like Tiago Ilori, supposedly the fastest payer we had at the club at the time, turning out to be a dud. When you can’t defend, being fast means nothing if you are a CB. It would be nice to have all the attributes, but unless if you’re okay to deal with the downsides, you’re not going to get a complete defender anyway for affordable prices.

Fordy · « **Reply #1584 on:** April 19, 2021, 10:12:05 pm »

Missed him tonight.

Fromola · « **Reply #1585 on:** April 19, 2021, 10:16:18 pm »

Quote from: Fordy on April 19, 2021, 10:12:05 pm

Missed him tonight.

Especially if you're going to keep giving corners away. He'd have been there to head it clear.

Might have put one away at the other end as well given they were shit at defending them as well.

BeingJohnMarkovic · « **Reply #1586 on:** April 20, 2021, 12:26:14 am »

Big loss tonight. Provides so much strength and aerial power to the team at the moment. Hopefully he's back for the next one.

Sheer Magnetism · « **Reply #1587 on:** April 20, 2021, 12:41:29 am »

Love how we've got to the point where fans are bemoaning the fact Phillips is injured - I mean that genuinely too. it's great to see someone step up from the reserves and stake a claim. Seems a great lad.

King Kenny 7 · « **Reply #1588 on:** April 20, 2021, 03:08:58 am »

His height, strength and bravery/doggedness was missed.

It will be interesting to eventually see him and VVD get a few games together.

Crosby Nick · « **Reply #1589 on:** April 20, 2021, 07:16:01 am »

Quote from: BeingJohnMarkovic on April 20, 2021, 12:26:14 am

Big loss tonight. Provides so much strength and aerial power to the team at the moment. Hopefully he's back for the next one.

Would definitely want him back for the likes of West Brom and Burnley. Was it a minor thing?

Keith Lard · « **Reply #1590 on:** April 20, 2021, 10:47:25 am »

Quote from: Sheer Magnetism on April 20, 2021, 12:41:29 am

Love how we've got to the point where fans are bemoaning the fact Phillips is injured - I mean that genuinely too. it's great to see someone step up from the reserves and stake a claim. Seems a great lad.

Me too. Too many people have been condescending towards Nat Philips. I’m no footy expert but I see a really good premier league centre back there with character and steely determination.

y2w902 · « **Reply #1591 on:** April 20, 2021, 11:08:09 am »

Quote from: BIG DICK NICK on April 20, 2021, 07:16:01 am

Would definitely want him back for the likes of West Brom and Burnley. Was it a minor thing?

I feel nothing is ever minor when it comes to our injuries but I hope i'm wrong.

BeingJohnMarkovic · « **Reply #1592 on:** April 20, 2021, 10:09:39 pm »

Quote from: BIG DICK NICK on April 20, 2021, 07:16:01 am

Would definitely want him back for the likes of West Brom and Burnley. Was it a minor thing?

I remember the match notes saying he had a "slight hamstring strain" so hopefully it was just precautionary. We need Nat back for the next game!

B0151? · « **Reply #1593 on:** April 20, 2021, 10:37:58 pm »

It's like what I was saying, he has weaknesses but he also has strengths that he brings to the team that we don't have elsewhere.

We don't have much height right now so the fact we have someone so aerially dominant is a godsend. He also has brings aggression which is a valuable quality, especially so when we need to grind wins out.

Zoomers · « **Reply #1594 on:** April 21, 2021, 06:27:38 am »

When is he back? I have not seen any news on his injury...

Black Bull Nova · « **Reply #1595 on:** April 21, 2021, 11:52:57 pm »

Who would have believed we'd have fans saying "I hope Nat Phillips is fit for the weekend" 12 months ago

decosabute · « **Reply #1596 on:** April 23, 2021, 03:52:40 pm »

Quote from: Black Bull Nova on April 21, 2021, 11:52:57 pm

Who would have believed we'd have fans saying "I hope Nat Phillips is fit for the weekend" 12 months ago

It is mad, but that's where we are. I'm genuinely disappointed he's out again this weekend. Not arsed with Fabinho being pulled out of midfield to plug the gap, so part of me hopes we give Davies a run.

AmanShah21 · « **Reply #1597 on:** April 24, 2021, 02:30:17 pm »

Missing him dearly, almost as much as the other 3 senior centre halves. 2 games missed, 2 late goals conceded. He thrived in these situations where all you need is to boot it out to finish the game.

Welshred · « **Reply #1598 on:** April 24, 2021, 02:34:35 pm »

He'd have made absolutely no difference to the result

MonsLibpool · « **Reply #1599 on:** April 24, 2021, 02:36:37 pm »

No way we concede the last two goals with him playing.