Author Topic: On The Buses  (Read 3094 times)

Offline AlphaDelta

  • Creepy, geeky, recidivist hose-spotter, checking out the size of your engine as we speak......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,382
  • People's Republic of Liverpool
On The Buses
« on: July 16, 2019, 01:25:25 pm »
I'm interested to see what peoples thoughts are on this, especially as its causing a bit of uproar amongst passengers and local business owners alike.

https://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/travel-updates/Pages/city-centre-bus.aspx

Merseytravel can dress it up all they like, but it basically means loads of the buses are stopping and starting at Queen Square from January, they are making a bus hub at Old Haymarket to reduce the number of buses parking on-street and travelling around the city centre (!). This screws people who work in the business district of town, for example I work in Old Hall Street. A walk to Queen Square after being in work all day is a pain in the arse but walkable, but I have colleagues who are disabled or not to handy on their legs, they are dreading these changes.

It seems to me they are just pushing ahead with the plans, despite a public consultation, plus if it really is to reduce buses in the city, how does having hundreds of them parked up in Old Haymarket gonna help.

Lastly, Queen Square is a pain in the arse now with crowds getting on the bus, imagine what its gonna be  like when its the only place to get one!



"I ask that you believe in this team and believe that together we can achieve great things."

Offline Spongebob Redpants

  • Is a spingly spangly
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,468
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2019, 03:38:39 pm »

I'll get you Butlerrrrrrr ! (Sorry ! )

As far as Liverpool city council are concrened , they can't even synchronise the traffic lights throughout the city , so would be majorly suprised if this was in the least bit successful .

Lane reductions on the Strand which can't cope as it is - it'll be fuckin chaos !
Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes. Then, when you do criticise him, you're a mile away and you have his shoes.

Offline Big Red Richie

  • Thread killer extraordinaire. For future reference the order is T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,535
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2019, 07:47:09 pm »
I've been convinced for many years, that it's all geared towards a congestion charge.     It doesn't make sense for any other reason.


I have a relative who works for Merseytravel, so I've spoken to them several times regarding the movement of busses, and the traffic flow in general around the city centre etc.

What's in the pipeline regarding road closures, and re-gigging traffic flow, is gonna fuck certain parts of the city centre, big time.

Narrowing the Strand, narrowing and one-way on Lime Street, just doesn't make sense. It's like the road planners have designed it from thousands of miles away, without ever visiting the city itself.

It's gonna be one big clusterfuck.

You've only got to remember when they re-gigged the timing on the lights at Lime Street a couple of years ago, and it was gridlock, them having to send all the buses down the flyover.


As for the op question.  First of all, Old Haymarket is gonna be one big snarl up. I just can't see it being big enough for purpose for the sheer volume of buses needed.

As has been mentioned. If you are disabled or can't walk far, it's going to be a nightmare, even with the proposed shuttle buses provided.

In the summer, not so bad. When the weather is shit, everyone working further in than Stanley Street is going to be soaking and extremely pissed off all day.

All in all. Shite idea all around.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

  • Asterixophile
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,751
  • From the depths of Sevvy Park lake
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2019, 08:30:21 pm »
If it paves the way for vastly improved and subsidised public transport and green infrastructure, and less people using their cars, I'm all for it. Problem is they will make these changes and yet public transport and cycling infrastructure will remain wholly inadequate without massive and immediate investment.

I'd be all for a congestion charge as well by the way. Preferably with bigger more polluting vehicles (i.e. 4v4s) charged more then others. And disabled people and the infirm getting some kind of pass. People will moan, people might get wet on a rainy day. But that is a small sacrifice in the grand scheme of things. People will not change their behaviour until absolutely forced to, even with all the evidence there before our eyes. Even when the majority of cars turn electric, matching the number of cars we have on the roads now is still clearly unsustainable, and also undesirable. So winding down car infrastructure around the centre is the direction we need to be moving. Ultimately any decisions that force people to change habits will prove unpopular.

But as noted the incentives to use public transport have to be implemented alongside the disincentives for driving. Starting with massively improved green infrastructure (even at the expense of potholed roads - although with proper investment it wouldn't have to be either or).


Edit: More specifically on the bus routes. They changed the 82 up a couple of years ago so it no longer goes through the centre, and instead skirts around straight to L1. I was pretty annoyed (especially as the explanation was to reduce city centre congestion - when surely buses should be getting priority), but at the end of the day it is not the worst inconvenience to have to get off at the Baltic Triangle to get to the Bombed Out. Again though I appreciate that is different for the elderly and disabled.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 08:40:53 pm by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline kesey

  • Hippy - Scally - Taoist - Rafiki - Dad - Trichotomist. Hill Climber, David Cassidy Fan Club
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 27,067
  • Truth , Love and Simplicity ♡
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2019, 10:45:35 pm »
Reduce traffic in town it's a pain in the arse.

Yes Iam cyclist.
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

Offline Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,566
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2019, 03:49:31 pm »
One of my biggest peeves about the city.

Remember the gyratory?  Somebody thought it would be a great idea to turn it into a single lane either side elbow and call it Queen's Square.  Where if a bus broke down in the wrong place it gridlocked the entire city centre.

I long said that, with L1 bus station handling buses for south Liverpool, we needed a new station for north Liverpool as well, as too much bus traffic was being funnelled through Queen's Square.  But the Haymarket is a lunatic location. 

The best (temporary) idea would be to have "north" Liverpool buses stop at St John's lane, then turn left, away fro QS and back past St George's Hall and out of the city that way.

I'm a committed pedestrian but even I know this is a stupid idea and gridlock is not tourist friendly.
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline sharkeyb

  • Would pay to see a Mason's willy, but not more than £35.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,082
  • He's on the floor
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2019, 11:46:25 am »

I'm a committed pedestrian but even I know this is a stupid idea and gridlock is not tourist friendly.

(I'd love to pedestrianise bold st)
Sir, the cash monies?

Offline kesey

  • Hippy - Scally - Taoist - Rafiki - Dad - Trichotomist. Hill Climber, David Cassidy Fan Club
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 27,067
  • Truth , Love and Simplicity ♡
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2019, 02:52:53 pm »
(I'd love to pedestrianise bold st)

A few Sundays ago tere was a market there. It should be like that more often.
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

Offline sharkeyb

  • Would pay to see a Mason's willy, but not more than £35.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,082
  • He's on the floor
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2019, 03:04:55 pm »
A few Sundays ago tere was a market there. It should be like that more often.

funny enough I rode past it and had a look down, was such a good atmosphere, agreed, should be like that more often
Sir, the cash monies?

Offline kesey

  • Hippy - Scally - Taoist - Rafiki - Dad - Trichotomist. Hill Climber, David Cassidy Fan Club
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 27,067
  • Truth , Love and Simplicity ♡
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2019, 06:20:58 pm »
funny enough I rode past it and had a look down, was such a good atmosphere, agreed, should be like that more often

Deffo . Every Sunday or every last Sunday or something. It had a real vibe to it . The cafes moved outdoirs , buskers and local independant companies doing good trade.
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

Offline Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,566
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2019, 01:20:00 am »
(I'd love to pedestrianise bold st)

Back in the 80s it WAS pedestrianised.  Now it's some weird "hybrid" street.
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline OOS

  • Jordan Henderson fanclub member #4
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,657
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2019, 09:03:53 pm »
Whoever came up with this, has never got a bus to and from the city. People in the east part of the city (West Derby/ Canny Farm/ Norris Green/ Croxteth/ Tuebrook ect..), it's bad enough the journey in/ out of town, nevermind getting a connecting bus to get to Old Hall Street/ Strand/ Mann Island L1 ect... Rush hour is takes longer getting a bus from Mann Island to Croxteth than getting a train from Liverpool to Manchester.

So we will have a business district/ L1 that can't be accessed by a direct bus?  ;D I don't mind walking from Old Hall Street to Queens Square, but what about people with disabilities,poor mobility, elderly?

Queens Square is bad enough as it is, its gridlock when two busses need to get into the same bay.

All for greener cities ect ... but this seems a bad idea IMO.
"I think the most important thing about music is the sense of escape." - Thom Yorke

Offline Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,566
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2019, 10:04:03 pm »
Once or twice I found myself hopping the train from James Street to Lime Street because I wasn't in the mood to walk but new the bus would take almost as long as being on foot.

A good idea would be to have buses terminate at the major bus stations, but then with hop-on, hop-off minibuses shuttling between the stations and the waterfront so people aren't forced to walk. 

There is/was a huge stretch of derelict land, seemingly on the approach to the old Exchange Street Station, that would have been perfect for a bus station; but they started building some kind of tower block on it, and that that project seems to have stalled.

I remember the good old days when all the buses just terminated at the Pier Head.  Might not have been very pretty for the tourists, but a revamped version of that would have been functional and efficient.
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline Medellin

  • Self-confessed daft meff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,543
  • Sound
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2019, 04:21:49 pm »
https://liverpoolcitycentrebus.commonplace.is/about  :wave

faq's & a place to 'have your say'.
Support the team,Trust & Believe.

Offline butchersdog

  • Scouse Tiger.....grrrr :)
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2019, 10:34:25 am »
Perhaps this is the wrong place to talk about climate change, so if this thread was more related to congestion, apologies, however, I've become much more conscious of the climate change and pollution issue in the last few years. I spent some time away from cities recently, and on coming back, was shocked that, having got used to breathing cleaner air, I could actually taste the fumes in the air. Something that is quite routine nowadays, but I was watching the telly and an advert came on for Water Aid, it showed a little girl walking miles to collect polluted, parasite infested, dirty water to drink. We're so de-sensitised to this stuff that we can almost ignore it, but when you actually sit and focus on the message, this, it goes without saying, really isn't ok, and is only going to get worse, the longer we continue to pretend climate change isn't happening. It's a global problem, but things have to change at all levels, starting with the individual, and at a local level. So looking at our city, how do we get to the point where we can look at ourselves in the mirror and be happy with what's looking back? I don't personally think a congestion charge is the answer. I don't think penalising people without giving them viable alternatives, in a region that's significantly poorer than other parts of the country anyway, is going to get people on board, which for me, is the primary goal. All it does is penalise the less well off, while those with lots of money will just pay the charge. It needs to form part of a bigger strategy.

A similar idea, but rather than targeting specific areas, I'd sooner implement a national commuter tax, where if you commute more than 10 (or insert mileage here) miles to your place of work, you pay a 'green' tax out of your PAYE. Would be easy to implement through companies having to have proof of address upon employing you, so this could just be registered with the government. The money generated could be ring fenced to fund green initiatives and public transport, with spending proportionate with the revenue raised in certain areas of the country (so the money couldn't just be invested into one area), so in theory, over time, people are given more cost affective green transport alternatives, further driving down congestion. It could even be used to subsidise electric vehicles for those who wouldn't have the funds to access them. The tax would in the main only hit people who can 'afford' to commute long distance, and it would encourage people to work locally, thus easing a bit of the congestion on motorways, in cities etc. I think that's more justifiable than charging everyone to drive into town, which would result in someone driving 30 miles to get to town, and paying the same charge as the bloke who drives a couple of miles to work each day. While air quality and congestion in cities seems to be something of an emergency, if you look at it from a climate emergency perspective, pollution is pollution, whether you drive down a country lane to work, or down the waterfront in town. It would need tweaking for the occasional person that might cycle long distance, use an electric car etc, but yeh. A proportion of tax on fossil fuels could also be treated in the same manner.

I'd also put a tiered green tax on flights. People who consider themselves conscientious with regard to ecological issues often seem to forget that jet engines are a big part of the problem; climate change is an issue, and we either all look at what we contribute as individuals across all areas of our lives, or we fail. Cherry picking certain areas to target, while ignoring other areas out of convenience (which we are all guilty of), isn't the answer, and will leave people further divided into categories, feeling alienated, and ultimately won't change peoples hearts and minds re: thinking green, which for me, is what this is all about. It's an entire cultural and lifestyle shift. The questions shouldn't be isolated ones, questions that make people feel marginalised or adversarial, like do you drive to work, do you fly long haul, are you part of a 'problem' group, they should be, what's your carbon footprint, what do you do to offset it, what could you do to improve it, what can we as a collective do to improve all of the above, with tiered approaches down from here, but keeping people aware of the entire tree, not just the branches they use/belong to. Encourage both personal and collective responsibility in this regard, be transparent in plans and where money goes from initiatives like the above, give people rewards for being carbon neutral, whether that's subsidised/free use of transport networks, tax breaks; as long as it's viable and sustainable, why not?

Some other thoughts re: Liverpool; electric mopeds can be driven on a CBT, and cost about 2.5 - 3k - in a scenario like the above wouldn't be that hard to set up some sort of quick rental system akin to the whole 'Boris' bike thing with charging points around the city? It'd pay for itself pretty quickly I think.  In terms of a larger scale, long term plan, the Seattle monorail is a tourist attraction, other cities have cable cars, in the long term there's nothing to stop Liverpool implementing this stuff on the waterfront, down Lord Street, there's pockets of space, the city could be a world leader in green transport, show other places how to do things. People would visit to see this stuff, more money into the local economy. A green transport plan for the next 20 years, push carbon emissions down, drive down pollution, with re-investment of profit back into the system. A solution not motivated by profit, but because it's the right thing to do.

It's a pity we're about to do the whole Brexit thing re: funding.. that said, crowd funding, and companies/individuals taking time out to provide content for this type of thing, CAD designers and the like, it'd drive costs down and show what could be done. The question isn't can we afford to, it's as a nation, a city, an individual, can we afford not to?

Offline Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,566
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2019, 09:00:08 pm »
The problem with tax is that the money is rarely spent the way you want it to be spent. 

All of this could be sorted through regular taxation and a proper budget, but it never happens because governments want to keep the impression that people are paying less for the same quality of services.
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,791
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2019, 05:20:55 pm »
I'd never agree to a congestion charge, as Red Berry says above, the money is rarely if ever spent where it should go. When Greater Manchester gave us a vote on a congestion charge, I voted against it. Those who were backing it wanted all the money raised to be spent solely on their links out to Altrincham and there was nothing there to improve the lot of the 99% of other commuters.I used the bus for almost a year to get to work and it was shite. I was paying £25 a month more than fuel was costing, I'd walk the kids to school and I could be home, get my mike out of the garage and in work before the next bus arrived at the bus stop. The journey in was taking 30 minutes rather than under 10 and coming home it could take over an hour to get home. If the traffic in the City centre was bad, the bus could be anything up to an hour late and the bus stops have no weather protection.

What this country needs is a massive investment in public transport, making it a better alternative to using the car and then congestion charges etc are justified. Until this happens, you'll never get people out of cars.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Offline moondog

  • dot com! Wake him up before he go-gos.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,434
  • Bring the noise
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2019, 11:59:52 pm »
I always bang on about the great health and economic benefits we would see out of making all local busses absolutely free to local residents. Then crank up car parking charges and have a congestion charge too. Getting everyone to walk five minutes or so at each end of their journey would help fitness and wellbeing , this would be my main policy if running for office.

Offline rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,791
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2019, 07:28:11 am »
I always bang on about the great health and economic benefits we would see out of making all local busses absolutely free to local residents. Then crank up car parking charges and have a congestion charge too. Getting everyone to walk five minutes or so at each end of their journey would help fitness and wellbeing , this would be my main policy if running for office.

That is the kind of path we should be on.

My Dad didn't get his first car til I reckon 1976, so we used to walk or bus everywhere and when they divorced in 1980, my Ma couldn't drive so it was bus, train or bike. Public transport was dirt cheap and reliable and it never bothered us. Then that c*nt Thatcher fucked it up. It is going to take massive investment to get people out of cars and hitting them in the pockets, without a viable alternative is unfair.

Living and working in Manchester, I see how the city is growing, but the transport links aren't being updated to suit, so traffic has got worse and worse over the past 10 years - and those c*nts in Government are too busy wasting money on shit like their banker mates to fund proper changes.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 73,672
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2019, 02:49:51 pm »
Those new routes are great for me - guessing they'll be pedestrianising the centre a lot more.

It's pathetic sometimes coming out of Liverpool One on an 86, 82, 80 etc. and then spending half an hour just to get to the lights on Renshaw/Hardman St.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,566
Re: On The Buses
« Reply #20 on: August 3, 2019, 05:11:35 pm »
There's no point in anymore pedestrianisation unless there's a cohesive plan on what to do with traffic.  We're short on roads in the city centre as it is. 

Everything in the city centre always seems to be an ad-hoc solution; and for every problem they solve they create two more.  Either ban the cars and erect huge park and ride facilities (prohibitively expensive probably) or have more roads to improve traffic flow.
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art