Author Topic: Calm Heads  (Read 16796 times)

Offline alonsoisared

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Calm Heads
« on: January 31, 2019, 06:16:23 pm »
In the build up to the final of the Copa Libertadores between River Plate and Boca Juniors, it was revealed that a local radio station was to put on a special, alternative broadcast for the match. The crowd noise was to be drowned out by soothing music, and the commentators were told not to raise their voices. Specifically this was for those suffering from heart conditions who may be tipped over the edge by the excitement of the battle for South America's ultimate footballing prize. I'm wondering whether RAWK may be able to add some sort of plugin that automatically begins playing some soft jazz once someone logs in, or perhaps to accompany the match threads because, christ, do we need it.

I'm an extremely placid person in general but when it comes to the football, the cool head disappears and the panic sets in. I reckon most of RAWK ended up reading The Chimp Paradox after it emerged we were working with Dr Steve Peters during the 13/14 season, so I will use that analogy: With football, my computer goes into hiding, my human flaps it completely and my chimp goes into absolute overdrive. If you didn't read the book, I think you can put the pieces together as to what that means. And it aint pretty.

Last night, our inner chimps seemed to take over us all. Blokes were in the ground watching through their fingers with 25 minutes to go, chants were replaced by that general murmur of disapproval at a sideways or, god forbid, backwards pass. We began to see full backs attempting volleys from 25 yards out, silky smooth centre forwards snatching at 30 yarders with team mates free, even Jurgen ended the night swapping measured tactical instruction for bashing his fists against his chest like, well, a spectacled, New Balance clad, chimp. Panic set in, and for what? I know January feels like it goes on forever, but it is still January.

Were we in a title race in December 2015, when we were within eight of the leaders, Leicester, who we all knew were going to drop off at some point anyway? Were we in a title race in January 2017 when we were in touching distance of Chelsea? Was anyone even genuinely saying we were in a title race in 13/14 while we led at Christmas? I don't recall it, and yet somehow, people have been talking about a title race since September. When did this change? The truth is that until perhaps the middle of March there is no such thing as a title race. Until then, it is about getting yourself into a position, being in contention, picking up as many points as you can. Points will be dropped over a 38 game season, but if you can get to your final 5-6 games giving yourself a chance then you're in business. This is the sparring, the jostling, nobody is yet at their best. We're top of the pile.

Most of the time, words on an internet forum aren't all that important in the grand scheme of things. If you don't rate a player and think we should sell him, I won't argue with you, it's an opinion and wherever we stand on it, it won't change anything. But when it comes to panic and nervousness, that has a tangible effect on everyone. That's what makes football so amazing, we all play a part, otherwise what would be the point?

Anfield can be the best place in the world to play football, and it can also be the hardest place in the world to play football. There are times when we make the players feel invincible, when we're chasing something or holding on to something and a tide seems to turn against an opponent. Heads drop and when one goes in you just know we'll add a couple more. We've seen it time and time again. With that power also comes the potential for a negative impact, and I believe we saw that last night. Nerves and anxiety spread. These are professionals, and they're living the dream, but they are also humans operating under stress and we need to give them every edge that we can.

Throughout this season, the massive highlight has been the sheer ruthlessness that we have displayed. The free flowing attacking football we conjured up last season hasn't quite made a reappearance yet (it will though, and soon) but we have found this steel from somewhere. Until a month ago once we went one nil up it felt like the opposition would never get back into it, and I honestly have never felt that way about a Liverpool team in my 26, title-less, years of existence. Alisson, Van Dijk, Gomez, Wijnaldum, Salah, just some of the outstanding players this year and what they have all had in common is this aura of complete coolness. That is what wins you titles, and now isn't the time to begin making them second guess themselves.

So what is the solution? The issue is that there is such a fine line between the type of support that wants something so much that it drives a team on to reach dramatic heights, to one that is so desperate for a title after years of longing, that it creates a pressure that weighs on everyone's shoulders.

Let's all take up yoga, do some mindful colouring, go Vegan. I don't want to encourage illegal activity but roll yourselves a great big fucking joint if you have to. I'm considering Pilates first but after that, i'm open for suggestions. Find a sideline interest to occupy your mind. Probably best not to bother with politics at the moment, though. Just do whatever it takes to make this ride easier for yourself, because as the weeks go on it's going to get a hell of a lot more stressful than this, and I for one don't fancy shuffling off my mortal coil yet...certainly not before we've even wrapped up number 19.

14 games to go. That is a hell of a lot of time in football. The points difference doesn't matter a jot. Things change so quickly in football and it can never be predicted. In December, City dropped six in a week when they were still quoted as the greatest Premier League side of all time. We've just dropped five in a month. We are in a better position now than we've been in for, and I repeat, my 26 title-less fucking years of existence. I flapped it last night but i'm determined not to do it again. A couple on here will have you believe that they watch the games sat back like the Fonz, or Gini Wijnaldum as some call him, never for a moment questioning the side. For me at least, this is an impossibility, but what we can do is have belief in this team, from doubters to believers and all that. They've been absolutely unbelievable so far and we have a manager that completely knows what he's doing. We're in good hands, so try to trust them. Believe me, it'll help.

The desire, the desperation, the utter longing for that title will not go away. But it can be channeled and turned into the absolute force of nature that we know Anfield can be. We can all make a difference. Dust off the Chimp Paradox, play yourself some soothing music. We're in the middle of a ride that we've wanted to be on for our whole lives. Let's try to enjoy it.

Offline wige

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2019, 10:41:09 pm »
Deserves a longer response than this, but, it's good that Van Dijk has calmly spoken out and the Echo has doubled down. Need to spread posivity and calm.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2019, 10:49:21 pm »
Deserves a longer response than this, but, it's good that Van Dijk has calmly spoken out and the Echo has doubled down. Need to spread posivity and calm.

We need calm. Positivity will follow. In fact, I'm not worried about positivity or excitement because they'll come later in the season. For now, we need calm.
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The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2019, 10:51:47 pm »
Outstanding OP by the way Alonso and it echoes my thoughts. I was talking about this to someone on twitter and my sense was that maybe we are getting carried away a bit too early. As I put it to them, I might begin to think we are close to winning if we were on 88 points and 7 points ahead with a handful of games left. It is too early and completely unnecessary to get carried away already.
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2019, 10:56:08 pm »
Outstanding OP by the way Alonso and it echoes my thoughts. I was talking about this to someone on twitter and my sense was that maybe we are getting carried away a bit too early. As I put it to them, I might begin to think we are close to winning if we were on 88 points and 7 points ahead with a handful of games left. It is too early and completely unnecessary to get carried away already.

Totally agree, the problem is when City do drop points there is almost this desperation that we have to win the next three points to have any chance. We are getting ahead of ourselves, we need to continue to take each game as it tcomes. There is too much looking ahead of ourselves, let's make sure we keep the team on the straight and narrow, win those games we need to and then we can look ahead to that run in at the end. Great opening post as well.
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Offline brightside.

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2019, 11:11:03 pm »
Good post. I want to hear scousers cranking up the noise but keep the tone encouraging not exasperated sighs. Loudly whistle when opposition has the ball or a set piece. Intimidate the opponents not your own team.
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Offline royhendo

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #6 on: February 4, 2019, 10:29:51 am »
Lovely this mate. An entire crowd in a state of blissful equanimity. The Kop chants 'Ommmm....'

:)

You have to say though, under this present ownership and management, we face challenges, and we respond, and it repeats. So if we respond to the challenge of a tense crowd (and Van Dijk has already had words, hasn't he?), imagine how good we become then?
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Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #7 on: February 4, 2019, 10:49:29 am »
I'm wondering whether RAWK may be able to add some sort of plugin that automatically begins playing some soft jazz once someone logs in, or perhaps to accompany the match threads because, christ, do we need it.




Anything but jazz of any sort.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #8 on: February 4, 2019, 10:58:33 am »
Great post but I think the fans will jack it in this week and come Wednesday night there could be a meltdown to end all fan meltdowns.

Offline 19th Nervous Title

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #9 on: February 4, 2019, 12:12:42 pm »
Ok Simon, I'm on board.

For tonight's game I'm turning the commentary off, making a three blader and playing Sons of Kemet.
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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #10 on: February 4, 2019, 01:06:26 pm »
Great post but I think the fans will jack it in this week and come Wednesday night there could be a meltdown to end all fan meltdowns.



Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #11 on: February 4, 2019, 06:34:36 pm »
Lovely this mate. An entire crowd in a state of blissful equanimity. The Kop chants 'Ommmm....'

:)

You have to say though, under this present ownership and management, we face challenges, and we respond, and it repeats. So if we respond to the challenge of a tense crowd (and Van Dijk has already had words, hasn't he?), imagine how good we become then?
Cheers mate! I like your thinking, it also probably suits us being away from home tonight.

Breathing exercises at the ready then folks, an hour and a half to go. Breathe in through the nose, and out through the mouth...

Anything but jazz of any sort.
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Offline idontknow

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #12 on: February 4, 2019, 06:53:55 pm »
Anything but jazz of any sort.
I went out with a woman who lost it when reggae came on. Chilling was not her thing. Speed, Special Brew, & Hey Ho Let's Go.
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Offline Keith Lard

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #13 on: February 4, 2019, 10:33:44 pm »
Great post but I think the fans will jack it in this week and come Wednesday night there could be a meltdown to end all fan meltdowns.

I don't know, there is a core group of Liverpool supporters that seem very steadfast and level headed.

Personally, I never felt the title was in the bag at any point, and was expecting a few draws. It's going to be a hard fight, and I think the supporters that matter are fucking up for it.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #14 on: February 4, 2019, 10:35:39 pm »
I don't know, there is a core group of Liverpool supporters that seem very steadfast and level headed.

Personally, I never felt the title was in the bag at any point, and was expecting a few draws. It's going to be a hard fight, and I think the supporters that matter are fucking up for it.

Maybe. I am not on social media but if you are then steer clear. When Aguero is scoring the 4th in a 4-0 win against Everton the internet will be full of fan meltdowns and hashtag bottledit, hashtag City'sleague, hashtag KyleWalkerknows, hashtag giveittoole, hashtag Pogback.

Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #15 on: February 4, 2019, 10:37:22 pm »
I don't know, there is a core group of Liverpool supporters that seem very steadfast and level headed.

Personally, I never felt the title was in the bag at any point, and was expecting a few draws. It's going to be a hard fight, and I think the supporters that matter are fucking up for it.

It will go to the end of the season we've not really had a dip as yet, so you have to expect it will happen at some stage. But we are still well placed and providing we keep at it we will still be there at the end. But West Ham are a team who are capable of getting a result like this.
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Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #16 on: February 4, 2019, 10:39:25 pm »
Maybe. I am not on social media but if you are then steer clear. When Aguero is scoring the 4th in a 4-0 win against Everton the internet will be full of fan meltdowns and hashtag bottledit, hashtag City'sleague, hashtag KyleWalkerknows, hashtag giveittoole, hashtag Pogback.

Some of our fans on there are an utter embarrassment I always avoid social media just wish my friends did as well, but sadly they report everything back to me.
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Offline Keith Lard

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #17 on: February 4, 2019, 10:40:40 pm »
Maybe. I am not on social media but if you are then steer clear. When Aguero is scoring the 4th in a 4-0 win against Everton the internet will be full of fan meltdowns and hashtag bottledit, hashtag City'sleague, hashtag KyleWalkerknows, hashtag giveittoole, hashtag Pogback.

Every club has them, and half the time you can't really tell whether they're real supporters or just wind up merchants from another club. Meh whatever - who really cares. Just idiots and I don't think real supporters take notice of social media nonsense these days - just full of extremities and drama queens.
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Offline Felch Aid

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #18 on: February 4, 2019, 10:45:01 pm »
It's one game at a time and keeping adding points.

We don't have a divine right to win every game and expect the opposition to down tools.

Don't assume three points against Bournemouth suddenly means we've turned a corner.

One game at a time and some players back but most of all get behind the team and drive them on.

Believe.

Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #19 on: February 4, 2019, 11:14:12 pm »
Whale music tonight it is then.

Just one of the many twists and turns. City had their stumble and lost back to back, we've had a stumble and drawn back to back. Still top, still to play our best football. Frustrating but let's look at the positives...who knows how important that point might be at the end of the season?

I hope these last couple of games will have grounded us as a fanbase. Newcastle beating city last week felt massive,it was being talked about as potentially decisive, people were discussing the possibility that another city defeat might leave them sacking the league off and concentrating on europe. But suddenly these two results are a reminder that everything is still wide open and there's a long way left, both of us will drop points. A long old way to go, keep cool. Think of the old ticker...

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #20 on: February 4, 2019, 11:17:49 pm »
Maybe. I am not on social media but if you are then steer clear. When Aguero is scoring the 4th in a 4-0 win against Everton the internet will be full of fan meltdowns and hashtag bottledit, hashtag City'sleague, hashtag KyleWalkerknows, hashtag giveittoole, hashtag Pogback.

You're a clairvoyant. This club really needs to learn how to manage expectations because you're right, there are far too many that will lose their shit when Everton inevitably crumble.
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The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline MNAA

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #21 on: February 5, 2019, 01:32:15 am »
We’ve won the league 18 times. None of them we’re handed on the plate. We had to fight for them with ups and downs, twists and turns all throught the season. A few probably were a bit easier and less stressful. But mostly they’re not

It’s tougher these days. We’ve done very well so far - 25 games into the season with 13 to go. We all know that the team is giving our best shot. We are wobbly a bit now but we should keep the faith that they will get back on track sooner rather than later

We should all enjoy the ride. Help the team by keeping calm instead of perpetuating the tension and anxiety in the stands, on the net and in the social media. It’s a pressure cooker to try to win the league especially when they know how muc it meant for the fans. They don’t need us to heap more pressure on them
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Offline fintanmar

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #22 on: February 5, 2019, 10:30:59 am »
City have made 1 point up on us since their win on the 3rd of January.

You'd think we were now 3 points behind.

We are in our worst form of the season and need to turn it around pretty quickly.

If 4 or 5 of our players return to good form and we get a few back form injury results will quickly turn around.

Offline royhendo

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #23 on: February 5, 2019, 10:44:53 am »
We're improving and improving. If we improve more, well, we'll be the best we've ever been. It's that simple when you step back from it and look at the process.
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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #24 on: February 5, 2019, 11:28:07 am »
We need to unite as a fanbase, so many of our fans going mental.

We have enough rival fans trying to bash us at every opportunity, the players don't need our fans joining in!.
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Offline deFacto please, you bastards

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #25 on: February 5, 2019, 11:45:33 am »
At least the players have their heads right

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/336878-james-milner-reaction-liverpool-west-ham

Lallana also posted on his IG about not being arsed what anyone else thinks or says about us and focusing on the next game

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #26 on: February 5, 2019, 01:39:19 pm »
At least the players have their heads right

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/336878-james-milner-reaction-liverpool-west-ham

Lallana also posted on his IG about not being arsed what anyone else thinks or says about us and focusing on the next game

“I think we should enjoy being in this position, these are the positions you want to play in. It is a lot worse at the bottom end of the league when you are fighting against relegation or playing for nothing in mid-table, so let’s enjoy it and push forward together – ourselves, the fans and the whole club – and embrace it.”
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Offline deFacto please, you bastards

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #27 on: February 5, 2019, 02:04:25 pm »
Even Mark bloody Noble making a point

“I watched the game at Anfield during the week on TV and you could tell obviously with the history that Liverpool have got and the anxiety around the stadium it feeds into the players. I could even feel it sitting at home on my sofa,” he said to Sky Sports after the match.

“They just want to win that league so much. They’ve got a great chance of doing it, but the fans have got to stick by them and support them. Especially when you’re top and everyone is chasing you.

“You know Man City are not going to rest for one game, so you need to stick together. I’m pretty sure they’ll be fine they’ve got a fantastic squad of players and a world class manager.

“And for the Liverpool people I think it would be fantastic if they won it, Manchester City have won a few.

Offline thegoodfella

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #28 on: February 5, 2019, 02:13:39 pm »
Let's try to enjoy it.

Absolutely this. And I would add that instead of calling posters/fans who are criticising a decision here and there bedwetters or worse, we gotta understand that even that creates a negative atmosphere. Let's channel every ounce of positivity we got, and try to enjoy this. It is good to be in this 'squeaky bum' situation than being lost in the middle of the table get tanked by Wolves with cats running around the shop.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #29 on: February 5, 2019, 02:40:20 pm »
Even Mark bloody Noble making a point

“I watched the game at Anfield during the week on TV and you could tell obviously with the history that Liverpool have got and the anxiety around the stadium it feeds into the players. I could even feel it sitting at home on my sofa,” he said to Sky Sports after the match.

“They just want to win that league so much. They’ve got a great chance of doing it, but the fans have got to stick by them and support them. Especially when you’re top and everyone is chasing you.

“You know Man City are not going to rest for one game, so you need to stick together. I’m pretty sure they’ll be fine they’ve got a fantastic squad of players and a world class manager.

“And for the Liverpool people I think it would be fantastic if they won it, Manchester City have won a few.

He's right. We should celebrate we're top of the league, not be too anxious about it. We should see it as an opportunity to win something, like we do when we go into every Cup Final. Each game can take us one step closer to our goal. Now is the time to be positive and optimistic. Everyone of us would have taken 1st after 25 games, even on goal difference before the season started. Now we're there. Now is not the time to panic or be anxious.

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Offline Rush 82

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #30 on: February 5, 2019, 02:59:55 pm »
Good thread this.

Offline Sharado

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #31 on: February 5, 2019, 03:25:05 pm »
Lovely in here. I don't really want to do predictions, but I think by March, we'll start to look a little more like our normal selves. The next two games feel very big indeed. But I don't think we necessarily need to win them both. As much as that may send others into meltdown.
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Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #32 on: February 5, 2019, 05:28:30 pm »
Lovely in here. I don't really want to do predictions, but I think by March, we'll start to look a little more like our normal selves. The next two games feel very big indeed. But I don't think we necessarily need to win them both. As much as that may send others into meltdown.
I also am trying not to worry about what may or may not happen but I do agree with you on that. Recent history tells us that we will find our best form, and very soon. The Champions League returning and the atmosphere that brings to the club can only help us as well, I really don't buy that it will have any negative impact on us. Momentum is everything which is why i'm expecting City to get through this week with another two wins, while also being confident they'll drop the ball elsewhere.

Until that happens...ommm

As for the social media stuff, I should've included that in the OP along with taking up yoga and going vegan. Just don't look at it. The trouble with Twitter especially is that there's Liverpool fans on there, pretending to be Evertonians and making statements about how they hope "we" lose to City tomorrow. There's Man City fans pretending to be Liverpool fans, using #kloppout and #bottledit. Everyone is contributing to the avalanche of total bollocks and misinformation and it has to be taken with a pinch of salt. People have said RAWK doesn't represent our match going support; it certainly represents it a hell of a lot better than Twitter does!

Another thing to remove from your life to try and keep that heart rate down: predictions. We've all been there, obsessing over our next five fixtures compared to theirs. Who would've thought that the points dropped by each team over Christmas and up til now would've come against Leicester times 2, Newcastle, West Ham and Crystal Palace? Don't do it to yourself, it's torture. Game by game, enjoy where we are (which is top of the league by the way) and enjoy where we're going. The only thing we can control about the period between now and May is the mentality, and that can go a hell of a long way.

Offline GIPPO77

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #33 on: February 5, 2019, 05:31:46 pm »
All we as fans can do, is support our team, and expect them to try their best.
YNWA

Offline horne

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #34 on: February 5, 2019, 05:34:45 pm »
success= the absence of the fear of failure


go for the jugular boss....and us
success = the absence of the fear of failure

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #35 on: February 5, 2019, 05:44:16 pm »



"

I wouldn't say nerves are showing," said 24-year-old Liverpool left-back Andrew Robertson. "Did anyone say that when City dropped points against Crystal Palace and Leicester? I don't think they did.

"It's no different for us. People talk about pressure because we've not been in this position, but it's February.

"Everyone needs to relax and try and enjoy the run-in. Many other clubs want to be in the position we're in just now. Nerves aren't showing in the changing room. It's been two poor results and poor performances, it happens during a long season.

"We need to get back to playing the better football we can, but it's nothing to do with nerves. We're having a wee blip and we need to just try and get over the line in a couple of games."

« Last Edit: February 5, 2019, 05:46:35 pm by Sudden Death Draft Loser »
"The greatest argument against democracy is to have a five minute conversation  with the average voter. "

Offline U13

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #36 on: February 5, 2019, 05:58:12 pm »
Brilliant opening post and echos my feelings pretty much exactly.

The backlash to the last two results is staggering to me, 6 teams in history have as many points as this Liverpool team at this stage of the season. Six. And yet the moment they stumble a sizeable chunk of the fan base are giving them pelters.

It's interesting listening to the responses to our recent results in comparison to City's, especially because we've faced the same opposition over a short period of time.

Both played Palace at home, we won and City lost
Both played Arsenal at home we won 5-1 and City won 3-1
Both played Leicester we drew and they lost

The narrative seems to be our draws are catastrophic whereas City's losses aren't terminal for their title hopes. Every fucker wants us to lose this title so I can understand others buying into it but it's mental that our own fans are buying into it as well.

It's difficult to find the words to explain how much we all care about winning this title but I think we've got to do a better job of channelling that energy than we seem to be at the minute. We've been desperate to be in a title race for a long time and the squad are delivering, we should afford them a misttep without losing our shit.

Offline Andypandimonium

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #37 on: February 5, 2019, 06:17:47 pm »
Thank goodness for a sensible thread on here at the moment. Goodness knows what the atmosphere will be like on Saturday if all the doomsayers on RAWK are in attendance. As Shanks said, "at a football club, there's a holy trinity - the players, the manager and the supporters", sounds like the players and the manager are up for the fight, but not sure about some of our fans at the minute. If anyone can't handle the pressure in February maybe they should keep away until May, and if anyone wants to take me up on that suggestion, I'm still looking for two tix for Saturday  ;)

Come on you reds...wouldn't it be marvellous to stop the Mancs from progressing their oil-fuelled dynasty? We need more a bit more spirit of Shankly, and a bit less doom and gloom. Dare to dream and who knows what might happen  :scarf

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #38 on: February 6, 2019, 04:29:54 pm »
This is getting a bit too far down the page.
"The greatest argument against democracy is to have a five minute conversation  with the average voter. "

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Calm Heads
« Reply #39 on: February 6, 2019, 10:25:35 pm »
 :wave
"The greatest argument against democracy is to have a five minute conversation  with the average voter. "