Topic: Liverpool's defence - Giraffes, Walls and Automobiles

[Kashinoda]

Shots conceded on average, per game.



There's obviously work to be done but we really haven't defended consistently this good since 08/09.

 

[Schmidt]

What are you on about? Haven't you been listening to Danny Murphy? Our defence is awful and we'll never go anywhere with that back line.

[Kashinoda]

What are you on about? Haven't you been listening to Danny Murphy? Our defence is awful and we'll never go anywhere with that back line.

Ignoring of course the many times teams have won the league with more goals conceded after 11 games, and finished lower with much fewer conceded. But facts don't hold a place in punditry.

It's a non-issue but I guess people need things to talk about.

[Dubred]

Its there for the naked eye to see.  We really don't concede too many shots per game.

Yes we have a bit of an issue on the set pieces which I'm sure we'll get on top of eventually but its great that other areas of our defending seems to be so good.

Not acknowledged at all but who cares eh?!

[So… Howard Philips]

How many have we actually conceded from set pieces?

[richiedouglas]

I think Matip has been excellent, but if he couldn't play I'm actually quite confident that any defensive partnership could perform well. We just seem a lot more 'sound'. If Lucas and Ragnar started against Southampton I'd be ok. 18 months ago I'd have been wary.

[BritishGas]

Is this the rejuvenated defense thread or the rejuvenated defense thread?

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Is this the rejuvenated defense thread or the rejuvenated defense thread?

Neither, it's the rejuvenated defence thread.

[Kashinoda]

Neither, it's the rejuvenated defence thread.

[Vinay]

The surprising thing there is that Man Utd still has a very decent defense!

The other thing is that we are conceding at a relatively high rate given this defense.

[zero zero]

Another aspect to this is our (supposed) vulnerability to set pieces is how long it takes us to concede corners. On MOTD they made a point of showing the cheers from Watford fans when they won their first corner in the 67th minute. From memory, it took WBA till the 70th minute.

[jepovic]

We're a short team, so to some extent we have to live with being vulnerable at corners. Both full backs are pretty poor in the air. Can and Henderson are not too small but are frankly rubbish at aerials for some reason, and we don't have any big center forward to help us either. You can't have it all though, and I don't think we should get Benteke back just to improve our defending on set pieces.

[KurtVerbose]

Although it's true we've not kept many clean sheets (only 1 in the league) it's only been three matches that we've conceded more than one goal and we've won two of those. It's really not like 2013/4 when we had to score four in so many matches because we were conceding three.

Interesting stat though - really shows how lazy pundits are.

[SerbianScouser]

I think there`s a big drop-off going from Lovren to Lucas. I know Lucas is trying his best and his effort is admirable but last two games he covered for Lovren he cost us two goals, we know what he did vs Leicester while against Watford if you watched their goal again you`d see Lucas made a bad decision to leave his position and Janmaat went on to shoot unchallenged.

Since Matip came in we played 9 games and conceded 9 goals -- in the same spell Arsenal conceded 7, City 8, Chelsea 7, so it`s not that bad. We also concede the least amount of shots in the league. But overall we were desperately unlucky to concede with Lucas and Lovren howlers that happen ever so rarely in such fashion.

But we`ll have to address the situation with Lovren`s back-up because there`s this pattern with Lucas where he plays brilliantly 99.9% of time in games but always finds a way to give a goal away, it`s not even his fault that much because he needs more experience playing in that position. All in all I`m not concerned about our defence at all especially now when Karius showed some very, very positive signs our last game.

[jepovic]

I think there`s a big drop-off going from Lovren to Lucas. I know Lucas is trying his best and his effort is admirable but last two games he covered for Lovren he cost us two goals, we know what he did vs Leicester while against Watford if you watched their goal again you`d see Lucas made a bad decision to leave his position and Janmaat went on to shoot unchallenged.

Since Matip came in we played 9 games and conceded 9 goals -- in the same spell Arsenal conceded 7, City 8, Chelsea 7, so it`s not that bad. We also concede the least amount of shots in the league. But overall we were desperately unlucky to concede with Lucas and Lovren howlers that happen ever so rarely in such fashion.

But we`ll have to address the situation with Lovren`s back-up because there`s this pattern with Lucas where he plays brilliantly 99.9% of time in games but always finds a way to give a goal away, it`s not even his fault that much because he needs more experience playing in that position. All in all I`m not concerned about our defence at all especially now when Karius showed some very, very positive signs our last game.

With Sakho in the freezer and Lucas on his last year, I'm sure a new CB is high on the shopping list.

[The G in Gerrard]

Think criticism of the defence and keeper have been unjustified this season (since Burnley game in particular)

[Yorkykopite]

They're all getting better but unfortunately if they improve any more Barcelona will want them and because everyone dreams of playing for Barcelona we'll be left with nothing.

[Bunter]

Think criticism of the defence and keeper have been unjustified this season (since Burnley game in particular)

The thinking probably stems from us winning games comfortably and then failing to keep a clean sheet by always conceding a sloppy goal. The media and pundits seem to using the clean sheet thing as justification for thinking we'll come unstuck because of it, when in fact it's bollocks as we're blowing teams away.

[Hazell]

Think criticism of the defence and keeper have been unjustified this season (since Burnley game in particular)

It's a narrative that's stuck. We're quite obviously not perfect and there's plenty of room for improvement but yeah, since the Burnley game (we conceded 5 in our first two games and a goal on average thereafter), we've generally looked decent defensively, not conceding many chances. Plus we're scoring loads so it doesn't matter

[pyroparty]

I dont mind criticism of it, it's justified on occasions but theres never any context. Watford was just pure laziness because the game was over, not really anything to do with a shit defence! Annoying to concede but human nature to switch off, after they scored we went back to battering them again. West Brom's goal shouldn't even have stood!! 1 or 2-0s are "the sign of champions" etc but 6-1 and conceding a goal at 5-0 up or winning 4-2 brings all sort of questions! Baffles me. And the hilarious "what happens if their attack doesn't function?" errr we'll drop some points maybe? Like Arsenal did v Boro, like City did v Boro and Everton etc etc.

And if our defence is that hopeless it doesn't really say much for our rivals attack, Tottenham had 2 chances v us in their own stadium, Chelsea 1 and didnt even threaten after they got a goal back etc etc. Let's see who finishes higher out of us and Spurs with their "amazing defence", it won't be them I guarantee you that! I'm happy with how we are defending, we can do better but the luxury of having the best attack in the country means it isn't a big deal if we dont.

[reddebs]

I think a lot of the narrative stems from previous seasons, especially the failure of the 13/14 season. 

It also didn't help that they were all talking about our need to strengthen there this summer but in their eyes getting Matip on a free, Karius for less than £5m and using Milner as a makeshift LB meant that we'd "failed" to address the problem.

It isn't our fault that they know fuck all about Bundesliga players or that they think the only way to improve is to spend shed loads of money. 

Let them think what they like, they lack the vision and imagination to believe that a coach can actually improve things by coaching.  Shortsighted dimwits the lot of them.

[Petadroli]

It's a narrative that's stuck. We're quite obviously not perfect and there's plenty of room for improvement but yeah, since the Burnley game (we conceded 5 in our first two games and a goal on average thereafter), we've generally looked decent defensively, not conceding many chances. Plus we're scoring loads so it doesn't matter

Especially because the Burnley game was such an outlier. We definitely weren't at our best that day, but it was remarkable how we lost that game: 80% possession and  26 to 3 shot attempts. Plus we have the best head-to-head in the "big teams league", so you can't argue that our defense isn't solid enough if the best teams in the league can't break it down often enough to win.

[BassTunedToRed]

How many have we actually conceded from set pieces?

Four in the league so far. We've scored five in our last two games, for context!

[Purple Red]

Nice stat. While they never tell the whole story I feel this stat is quite illustrative of how generally solid our defending has been this season. It's never porous which is the main thing. As others have said, the idea that our defence is poor is a lazy narrative that has stuck early on. Doesn't matter if we get a few clean sheets on the bounce, if we concede from a corner the knives will be out again. It is slightly ridiculous though. Actually watching our defence is enough to show anyone we're very solid at the back. All our defenders are individually good players. We're not carrying a Smalling or a Jagielka.

[rscanderlech]

I think there`s a big drop-off going from Lovren to Lucas. I know Lucas is trying his best and his effort is admirable but last two games he covered for Lovren he cost us two goals, we know what he did vs Leicester while against Watford if you watched their goal again you`d see Lucas made a bad decision to leave his position and Janmaat went on to shoot unchallenged.

Since Matip came in we played 9 games and conceded 9 goals -- in the same spell Arsenal conceded 7, City 8, Chelsea 7, so it`s not that bad. We also concede the least amount of shots in the league. But overall we were desperately unlucky to concede with Lucas and Lovren howlers that happen ever so rarely in such fashion.

But we`ll have to address the situation with Lovren`s back-up because there`s this pattern with Lucas where he plays brilliantly 99.9% of time in games but always finds a way to give a goal away, it`s not even his fault that much because he needs more experience playing in that position. All in all I`m not concerned about our defence at all especially now when Karius showed some very, very positive signs our last game.

Yes and in my view Klavan isn't that brilliant either. In contrast to skrtel, he at least allows us to play the system that Klopp has in mind, so he is an improvement, but he isn't a great next option in defence. I think that further improvement will come from Karius getting used to this league and his teammates and eventual upgrades at LB and CB, with the CB possibly being Gomez or a new signing.

I really don't understand why we are so bad at set piece defending, though, but more experience for Karius and the odd defensive upgrade would help.

The worst thing that we do is probably to give away reckless set pieces, with Lucas standing out in particular for that crime.

But this is certainly an improvement and i suspect that we will finish the season with having conceded closer to 40 this year than the typical 50.

[rickardinho1]

With Sakho in the freezer and Lucas on his last year, I'm sure a new CB is high on the shopping list.

Matip, Lovren, Klavan, Gomez, with Stewart or Ilori as 5th... not sure we're in that desperate need for a CB, though a lot depends on how Gomez recovers.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Matip, Lovren, Klavan, Gomez, with Stewart or Ilori as 5th... not sure we're in that desperate need for a CB, though a lot depends on how Gomez recovers.

I think there is a very clear gap in the squad for at least a quality third choice centre back given that Lucas and Klavan are currently sharing that role. Especially given how frequently Lovren seems to miss games.

[simbo]

Yes and in my view Klavan isn't that brilliant either. In contrast to skrtel, he at least allows us to play the system that Klopp has in mind, so he is an improvement, but he isn't a great next option in defence. I think that further improvement will come from Karius getting used to this league and his teammates and eventual upgrades at LB and CB, with the CB possibly being Gomez or a new signing.

I really don't understand why we are so bad at set piece defending, though, but more experience for Karius and the odd defensive upgrade would help.

The worst thing that we do is probably to give away reckless set pieces, with Lucas standing out in particular for that crime.

But this is certainly an improvement and i suspect that we will finish the season with having conceded closer to 40 this year than the typical 50.

We are a small side, just down to pure size why we are bad at Set Plays. Be interesting to see some stats on where we rank in terms of size in the prem

[Grobbelrevell]

Four in the league so far. We've scored five in our last two games, for context!

How does that compare to the rest of the league, out of interest?

[rscanderlech]

We are a small side, just down to pure size why we are bad at Set Plays. Be interesting to see some stats on where we rank in terms of size in the prem

That, I know, but I still don't think that we ought to be quite as vulnerable as we are. Often it's our taller players or the goalkeeper that makes a mistake, and we are so often punished by the second ball. That seems to have as much to do with positioning, alertness and actual heading technique/quality of clearances as it does with height.

[rickardinho1]

I think there is a very clear gap in the squad for at least a quality third choice centre back given that Lucas and Klavan are currently sharing that role. Especially given how frequently Lovren seems to miss games.

I think you're underestimating Gomez. He's just as smooth on the ball as Matip, and Klopp isn't shy with playing young players. As long as he's fit he'll most likely be 3rd choice CB.

[Dench57]

I think you're underestimating Gomez. He's just as smooth on the ball as Matip, and Klopp isn't shy with playing young players. As long as he's fit he'll most likely be 3rd choice CB.

Lovren is good, but already I don't think he can be as good as Matip.

Matip looks to be a truly great CB, the best I've seen at LFC since peak Agger or Hyypia. I would like to see someone of his calibre alongside him. I don't know if Gomez is that guy, haven't seen enough of him.

[rickardinho1]

Lovren is good, but already I don't think he can be as good as Matip.

Matip looks to be a truly great CB, the best I've seen at LFC since peak Agger or Hyypia. I would like to see someone of his calibre alongside him. I don't know if Gomez is that guy, haven't seen enough of him.

I agree, but finding a CB of Matip's calibre is easier said than done...

[BassTunedToRed]

How does that compare to the rest of the league, out of interest?

Annoyingly nowhere has this info compiled, but I did see some figures before last weekend - Everton the best with 1 against, Palace the worst with 8.

[vagabond]

As great as this stat is, surely a more illustrative measure is clear cut chances conceded rather than simply shots? We may concede two less shots a game than spurs for instance but all the shots they concede may be speculative comparatively

[RogerTheRed]

Ah but... our defence does not have to face our attack - we have trashed most teams' defensive records :-)

[rscanderlech]

I agree, but finding a CB of Matip's calibre is easier said than done...

Well we got this one for £0 and Sami Hyypia for £2m around 2000-ish so I'm sure that, between them, Klopp, Edwards and up to £25m could find the guy we want if it isn't Gomez.

[cdav]

I think you're underestimating Gomez. He's just as smooth on the ball as Matip, and Klopp isn't shy with playing young players. As long as he's fit he'll most likely be 3rd choice CB.

I think we will sell Ilori and Sakho is obviously gone too, Klavan is 31 and Lucas is pushing 30. Its got to be either we hugely trust Gomez to develop into a starting quality centre back for a title challenging team or look to buy an additional centre back. I think Van Dijk fits the bill perfectly, good age (25), 6 ft 4 and great in the air, a good ball player with decent passing range, can bring the ball out, rarely injured and plays for Southampton (got to buy someone every year)!

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

Although it's true we've not kept many clean sheets (only 1 in the league) it's only been three matches that we've conceded more than one goal and we've won two of those. It's really not like 2013/4 when we had to score four in so many matches because we were conceding three.

Interesting stat though - really shows how lazy pundits are.

Exactly.

And at 3-0 on Sunday, we could have shut up shop and made some conservative changes to protect the defence and ensure we kept a clean sheet. But we didn't. We went for the jugular and recognised the importance of absolutely demolishing these teams. Goal difference could be massively important. If City had won on Saturday, we still would have been top due to goals scored.

I would be worried if we were shipping more than a goal in a lot of games, but we aren't. And more importantly, teams aren't really getting the chance to.

We play all-out attacking football. We are going to have moments when we sacrifice a bit of protection for the chance of scoring a goal. I would put my house on that winning us more points than it will lose us over the course of a season.

Set pieces we look uneasy, and that can definitely be worked on but I think the rest of it is blown out of proportion massively. 

[rickardinho1]

The goals conceded recently are down to individual lapses rather than structural issues, so the comparisons to 13/14 (when the team had very little defensive protection) are shallow.

For example, Watford's goal was down to Milner uncharacteristically losing his man on the left; and one of Palace's goals was down to Lovren's mis-kick.

Hardly something to get worried about.