Topic: The Anfield Wrap

[kavah]

Vote for the TAW

(Football Supporters Association)

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/fsa-awards-2022?mc_cid=af08d363c5&mc_eid=41a8987f74


(The FSA is the national, democratic, representative body for football supporters, advocates for supporter ownership, better fan engagement, cheaper ticket prices, the choice to stand at the match, protecting fan rights, good governance, diversity, and all types of supporter empowerment)

[decosabute]

In and of itself, I can take soft questioning for opposition fans on Coach Home and Friday Show - I understand that TAW can't just piss everyone off and not have them come back on.

But in the absence of any other substantial discussion of sportswashing and financial doping, it really starts to grate when Alex Hirst gets to come on and defend what Newcastle are doing (yeah, I know John Gibbons asked him if he was enjoying it, but it's hardly tough, and mostly he can just stick to the football as though nothing is wrong or off about what's happening). David Mooney will be on soon as well to avoid any difficult topics and cheerfully act like it's the most normal thing in the world that Man City are the best side in Europe.

Come on guys - two minutes of truth from Gutmann in a single show, and one line from Neil in an email about a "structural sporting issue" is simply not enough. The separate but linked subjects of sportswashing and financial doping are the biggest issues that elite level football faces - something that has directly cost the greatest Liverpool side of the past 30 years at least two league titles.

Needs to be confronted properly and regularly.

[Koplass]

There does appear to be a conscious policy to avoid talking about sportswashing, with or without opposition fans. I'd be genuinely interested to understand why if that is the case - is it fear of legal reprisals or just an editorial choice?

[red_Mark1980]

There does appear to be a conscious policy to avoid talking about sportswashing, with or without opposition fans. I'd be genuinely interested to understand why if that is the case - is it fear of legal reprisals or just an editorial choice?

Why would a opposition fan come back if they were.

They have to take a fine line with engaging and taking to the opposition without basically calling everyone shit and maintaining a relationship with them for future content.

John/Jane Doe from club X is under no obligation to continue to talk to TAW so pissing him/her off limits their opportunity with them and probably that club but also other clubs.

They are fan media, but they are media

[Koplass]

Why would a opposition fan come back if they were.

They have to take a fine line with engaging and taking to the opposition without basically calling everyone shit and maintaining a relationship with them for future content.

John/Jane Doe from club X is under no obligation to continue to talk to TAW so pissing him/her off limits their opportunity with them and probably that club but also other clubs.

They are fan media, but they are media

Sorry, I meant more in the case of when opposition fans aren't on the show. Looks like it's a general rule.

[decosabute]

Why would a opposition fan come back if they were.

They have to take a fine line with engaging and taking to the opposition without basically calling everyone shit and maintaining a relationship with them for future content.

John/Jane Doe from club X is under no obligation to continue to talk to TAW so pissing him/her off limits their opportunity with them and probably that club but also other clubs.

They are fan media, but they are media

Understand all that and said as much in my post, but surely there are ways to do it. I'm not asking them to grill a fairly innocent fan, but I am expecting them to talk about it properly on Reds-only shows.

And if David Mooney or Alex Hurst then actually refused to come on because TAW dared to address it on an Unwrapped or Overview, then frankly, they can fuck off and would be no loss.

I appreciate it's difficult and a balancing act. But they have to ask themselves if they want to (possibly) piss off a couple of opposition fans, or if they want to continue to piss off those of us who pay and are fed up of these topics being skirted around?

[red_Mark1980]

For me there's little to be gained from it in an echo chamber.

I know of no Liverpool fans who'd defend what city or Newcastle are doing/becoming.

Is there anything to be gained by having reds slagging both clubs off?

I'm sure people will just think I'm defending TAW, but I've come to the conclusion that we probably all think it's crap and unfair, we don't think much will change as the authorities seem to turn a blind eye.

I'm just not sure what would be added.

"Crap isn't it lads"
"Yeah"

[Kenny's Jacket]

In and of itself, I can take soft questioning for opposition fans on Coach Home and Friday Show - I understand that TAW can't just piss everyone off and not have them come back on.

But in the absence of any other substantial discussion of sportswashing and financial doping, it really starts to grate when Alex Hirst gets to come on and defend what Newcastle are doing (yeah, I know John Gibbons asked him if he was enjoying it, but it's hardly tough, and mostly he can just stick to the football as though nothing is wrong or off about what's happening). David Mooney will be on soon as well to avoid any difficult topics and cheerfully act like it's the most normal thing in the world that Man City are the best side in Europe.

Come on guys - two minutes of truth from Gutmann in a single show, and one line from Neil in an email about a "structural sporting issue" is simply not enough. The separate but linked subjects of sportswashing and financial doping are the biggest issues that elite level football faces - something that has directly cost the greatest Liverpool side of the past 30 years at least two league titles.

Needs to be confronted properly and regularly.

This is why I dont listen to the opposing fan stuff.

The TAW contributors in general give Cities finances an easy ride.

[decosabute]

For me there's little to be gained from it in an echo chamber.

I know of no Liverpool fans who'd defend what city or Newcastle are doing/becoming.

Is there anything to be gained by having reds slagging both clubs off?

I'm sure people will just think I'm defending TAW, but I've come to the conclusion that we probably all think it's crap and unfair, we don't think much will change as the authorities seem to turn a blind eye.

I'm just not sure what would be added.

"Crap isn't it lads"
"Yeah"

So the alternative is what? Bury heads in the sand and pretend it's not happening? No mention of it? Laud City's (and soon Newcatle's) team and act as though their success is some kind of hard-earned footballing romance? I'm not asking it to be a talking point on every other show, but jesus christ, not discussing it at all is a valid course of action?

Ignoring it and not discussing it is exactly what the sportswashers want. If everybody continues to ignore it, eventually they get accepted without a spiritual asterisk beside their name, even amongst our fanbase. They've already worn down most of the football world, who now basically act like they're 100% legit, so it's not unrealistic to think Liverpool fans would feel the same way now or in the future. And when that happens, then it's over and they've won.

Sorry, I just can't at all subscribe to your line of thinking on this.

[Big Bamber]

Here’s a section of a reply to me from Neil earlier in this thread, which touches on points raised again now.

Note, this was on the general point of soft-pedalling oppo fans, not specifically on financial doping or sports washing.

/snip

When we interview the opposition supporters you get to hear what they authentically think, what their authentic hopes and expectations are. They offer the thoughts they have and shine a light on where they are amongst their fan base. Authenticity isn't rows and it certainly isn't someone looking for an argument. A couple of times when Emily Brobyn (whom I like a lot) has been on you've had her take a very much fairydust line around City's ownership. That's what she thinks. It is what a lot of City supporters think. David Mooney is really quite different and you hear that. My point is that we trust you all to be smart enough to know the difference and to absorb the experience and take the quite different insight into mindsets. Insight doesn't equal people being correct. The insight is as much into the thought process as it is to the end result. And that is there authentically.

So we have diversity in terms of race, nationality, gender and age. We aren't sat here knocking people back who want to contribute. We aren't though trying to manufacture arguments where there isn't much of one. And we aren't going to just get people on for a row because we have a duty of care. I'm not going to go "cranks wanted" on Twitter. But we aren't hard to find and we're always actively looking for contributors. If you've got people who you think we should have on then let me know.

The reason you'll get a robust response is that this question is about our values. And we have strong values. There are times where I wish we didn't. There are times when I think some people exaggerating what they think would get us more listeners and subscribers. There are times where I reckon me taking a mad position and Robbo being Robbo would see the numbers go up. But we have strong values. And on top of that being robust is one of our things.

[red_Mark1980]

So the alternative is what? Bury heads in the sand and pretend it's not happening? No mention of it? Laud City's (and soon Newcatle's) team and act as though their success is some kind of hard-earned footballing romance? I'm not asking it to be a talking point on every other show, but jesus christ, not discussing it at all is a valid course of action?

Ignoring it and not discussing it is exactly what the sportswashers want. If everybody continues to ignore it, eventually they get accepted without a spiritual asterisk beside their name, even amongst our fanbase. They've already worn down most of the football world, who now basically act like they're 100% legit, so it's not unrealistic to think Liverpool fans would feel the same way now or in the future. And when that happens, then it's over and they've won.

Sorry, I just can't at all subscribe to your line of thinking on this.

They aren't though. It's not about putting your head in the sand- but outside of comments from contributors (off the top of my head, Adam Smith, Guttman, Ian Salmon, Neil Docking, Heaton have all in the last month made comments about City) what else is to be gained?

I'm not sure TAW has the authority to bring city in line.

[JackWard33]

Here’s a section of a reply to me from Neil earlier in this thread, which touches on points raised again now.

Note, this was on the general point of soft-pedalling oppo fans, not specifically on financial doping or sports washing.

Its a decent effort at a rationalisation but you don't get to hear what fans of opposing fans 'authentically think' about being owned by despotic regimes who are using their clubs as PR exercises if you don't ask them about it...

[Jm55]

Why would a opposition fan come back if they were.

They have to take a fine line with engaging and taking to the opposition without basically calling everyone shit and maintaining a relationship with them for future content.

John/Jane Doe from club X is under no obligation to continue to talk to TAW so pissing him/her off limits their opportunity with them and probably that club but also other clubs.

They are fan media, but they are media

I’d genuinely be interested to know what the market research says about TAW subscribers and listeners who give two shites what the likes of David Mooney have to say.

I love TAW and I’ve subscribed for 4 years which is ever since I was first made aware of it but I don’t especially like the rival fan bits and I especially can’t listen to the likes of Moony, he rarely if ever says anything insightful and I deliberately skip past it.

What I would listen to is someone calling out their shithouse football club for an hour, however.

[Dench57]

I know Craig at least reads this thread so I'll be interested if the boys/girls at TAW HQ give us an answer. To me it's probably the obvious reason, that they won't be able to get oppo fans' views if they say the truth. It's not good for the product really. The Friday show is my favourite but I skip the City and Newcastle segments because well, they're bullshit aren't they? And it gets harder to listen when the gap between us grows bigger.

Is it in TAW's best interests to bang that drum of injustice every week? I doubt it. I understand why they don't.

[Big Bamber]

I know Craig at least reads this thread so I'll be interested if the boys/girls at TAW HQ give us an answer. To me it's probably the obvious reason, that they won't be able to get oppo fans' views if they say the truth. It's not good for the product really. The Friday show is my favourite but I skip the City and Newcastle segments because well, they're bullshit aren't they? And it gets harder to listen when the gap between us grows bigger.

Is it in TAW's best interests to bang that drum of injustice every week? I doubt it. I understand why they don't.

This was teased out around the time of the Man U protests. Try page 641 of this thread for example.

[tmsneil]

David Mooney is coming over for a face to face conversation about City's owners and his relationship to them once the games have died down. You aren't getting that conversation in a ten minute "so who's playing well at the minute bar Haaland and what do you reckon at the weekend?" When he does I expect there to be a fair bit of respect around it because he really doesn't have to.

When I do stuff on, say, the BBC and find a way to it, I'll drop in "sportswashing" or "financial doping". What's the point of talking about it on TAW subscription shows? Eliciting feelings of togetherness? A primal scream? It'll come up here and there from contributor to contributor but LFC aren't sportswashing and aren't financially doping. If they were, if I were still talking about football in that context, I'd be talking about it all the time. Do I think we are playing a rigged game? Yep. What's the next question? Stopping playing? When we are talking about Liverpool in the big picture - which there hasn't been as much time for as I'd like given the end of last season, Paris and then the speed of this campaign but will be during the World Cup - it will come up as what we are up against but the fact of the matter is that it is part of the firmament. Maybe I sound like I've given up, I just think I sound like the manager to be honest. There is this thing. It is there. We are up against it. We have to be perfect, they don't, that influences our decision making. By decision making you know I mean transfers and then...

...I go through that and I have a load of people screaming about Fenway Sports Group and transfers. Happy to do it. Have done it before, will do it again, but just letting you know that is where we will be. Not with tremors setting in across Newcastle and Saudi Arabia that their house of cards is going to collapse. I am instead not talking about the corruption of the sport but the Nunes lad who went to Wolves.

We've talked loads about football reform. I've written loads about football reform. And the subtext of football reform conversation is in significant part what is happening in Newcastle, Manchester and Paris. But, to be frank, the people you want talking about this don't make podcasts in Liverpool. They make shows in Media City in Salford or in wherever The Athletic are in London or actually in Manchester, Paris and Newcastle. And nobody is inviting me onto any panels by the way.

No one is subscribing because of who we have on Coach Home and Friday Show, however good I think Alex and David are, as examples. And if we did bang that drum of injustice every week then there is a really valid point when someone comes on from Brighton or Norwich or whoever around income. But I don't think it is either in TAW's best interests or not in our best interests to do that or not do it. And in the wider sense the whole thing just *is*. I deeply wish it wasn't. So:

I tweeted after the last time Jurgen spoke on this saying the follow up question he should be asked after mentioning the state owned clubs is about the regulator mentioned in The Crouch Review. Does Jurgen back it and will Liverpool back it? Because the truth is that sort of regulator posited in that is the only viable way home against the state owned clubs. That's it. That's the one pathway, something that looks like a statutory regulator. You only beat a state with a state.

Liverpool haven't said a word about The Crouch Review. And as and when we next have a chat about FSG I will be making that point.

[tmsneil]

There does appear to be a conscious policy to avoid talking about sportswashing, with or without opposition fans. I'd be genuinely interested to understand why if that is the case - is it fear of legal reprisals or just an editorial choice?

But, here, there is no conscious policy.

I mean we have very, very few conscious policies. Be sound. Wash your hands. Think that's about it.

[Rush 82]

When we lose like we did on Saturday I liberally delete all the TAW shows until the next game.

Soz! - it's just too painful hearing everything rehashed that we've just watched.

[KillieRed]

Some times it acts as therapy. I’d rather listen to them than any other football podcast, and as someone said on the pod last week: I’ve hardly watched motd at all this season! It’s bad enough watching dreck without pundits getting digs in.

[Big Bamber]

David Mooney is coming over for a face to face conversation about City's owners and his relationship to them once the games have died down. You aren't getting that conversation in a ten minute "so who's playing well at the minute bar Haaland and what do you reckon at the weekend?" When he does I expect there to be a fair bit of respect around it because he really doesn't have to.

When I do stuff on, say, the BBC and find a way to it, I'll drop in "sportswashing" or "financial doping". What's the point of talking about it on TAW subscription shows? Eliciting feelings of togetherness? A primal scream? It'll come up here and there from contributor to contributor but LFC aren't sportswashing and aren't financially doping. If they were, if I were still talking about football in that context, I'd be talking about it all the time. Do I think we are playing a rigged game? Yep. What's the next question? Stopping playing? When we are talking about Liverpool in the big picture - which there hasn't been as much time for as I'd like given the end of last season, Paris and then the speed of this campaign but will be during the World Cup - it will come up as what we are up against but the fact of the matter is that it is part of the firmament. Maybe I sound like I've given up, I just think I sound like the manager to be honest. There is this thing. It is there. We are up against it. We have to be perfect, they don't, that influences our decision making. By decision making you know I mean transfers and then...

...I go through that and I have a load of people screaming about Fenway Sports Group and transfers. Happy to do it. Have done it before, will do it again, but just letting you know that is where we will be. Not with tremors setting in across Newcastle and Saudi Arabia that their house of cards is going to collapse. I am instead not talking about the corruption of the sport but the Nunes lad who went to Wolves.

We've talked loads about football reform. I've written loads about football reform. And the subtext of football reform conversation is in significant part what is happening in Newcastle, Manchester and Paris. But, to be frank, the people you want talking about this don't make podcasts in Liverpool. They make shows in Media City in Salford or in wherever The Athletic are in London or actually in Manchester, Paris and Newcastle. And nobody is inviting me onto any panels by the way.

No one is subscribing because of who we have on Coach Home and Friday Show, however good I think Alex and David are, as examples. And if we did bang that drum of injustice every week then there is a really valid point when someone comes on from Brighton or Norwich or whoever around income. But I don't think it is either in TAW's best interests or not in our best interests to do that or not do it. And in the wider sense the whole thing just *is*. I deeply wish it wasn't. So:

I tweeted after the last time Jurgen spoke on this saying the follow up question he should be asked after mentioning the state owned clubs is about the regulator mentioned in The Crouch Review. Does Jurgen back it and will Liverpool back it? Because the truth is that sort of regulator posited in that is the only viable way home against the state owned clubs. That's it. That's the one pathway, something that looks like a statutory regulator. You only beat a state with a state.

Liverpool haven't said a word about The Crouch Review. And as and when we next have a chat about FSG I will be making that point.

Thanks Neil. Just on the two points bolded above. Please don’t underestimate the value of eliciting the feeling of togetherness about the unfairness of financial doping and sportswashing, week after week if needs be. We need to know and say it is not right, will never be acceptable, will always be pointed out, and that we are not going mad. It should never be normalized. After every game week. And part of that is not going: “is the game rigged? Yes. Next question.” It involves pausing on the ‘yes’, and calling it out whenever we can. As long as it rigs the game, and Liverpool stay on the moral high ground. TAW would be doing our collective sanity a favour. And without getting to high and mighty, it’s important for the game. TAW has that profile.

[redgriffin73]

When we lose like we did on Saturday I liberally delete all the TAW shows until the next game.

Soz! - it's just too painful hearing everything rehashed that we've just watched.

I listen to the post match show and that's it except for non-related shows like AFQ.

[tmsneil]

Thanks Neil. Just on the two points bolded above. Please don’t underestimate the value of eliciting the feeling of togetherness about the unfairness of financial doping and sportswashing, week after week if needs be. We need to know and say it is not right, will never be acceptable, will always be pointed out, and that we are not going mad. It should never be normalized. After every game week. And part of that is not going: “is the game rigged? Yes. Next question.” It involves pausing on the ‘yes’, and calling it out whenever we can. As long as it rigs the game, and Liverpool stay on the moral high ground. TAW would be doing our collective sanity a favour. And without getting to high and mighty, it’s important for the game. TAW has that profile.

There is a lot in this - I don't think doing what you say there would be good for the collective sanity at all, for instance - but what I would say in the immediacy is Liverpool aren't on the moral high ground. They would be if they showed leadership and backed The Crouch Review's regulator. As it is they haven't done that and haven't shown leadership.

[Big Bamber]

There is a lot in this - I don't think doing what you say there would be good for the collective sanity at all, for instance - but what I would say in the immediacy is Liverpool aren't on the moral high ground. They would be if they showed leadership and backed The Crouch Review's regulator. As it is they haven't done that and haven't shown leadership.

Backing the Regulator might put Liverpool on higher moral ground, but they are already on higher ground relative to others. So there should be no barrier to consistently pointing out the rigged game, right now.

[red_Mark1980]

But, here, there is no conscious policy.

I mean we have very, very few conscious policies. Be sound. Wash your hands. Think that's about it.

Takes me back to the start of Covid in 2020.

Wash your hands, get her pregnant.

Cheers for taking the time before kick off to come back and fair play to Dave Mooney. You're absolutely right he doesn't have to which is precisely why I thought TAW wouldn't broach it with him or anyone.

[ljycb]

I’d genuinely be interested to know what the market research says about TAW subscribers and listeners who give two shites what the likes of David Mooney have to say.

I love TAW and I’ve subscribed for 4 years which is ever since I was first made aware of it but I don’t especially like the rival fan bits and I especially can’t listen to the likes of Moony, he rarely if ever says anything insightful and I deliberately skip past it.

What I would listen to is someone calling out their shithouse football club for an hour, however.

I can only speak for myself of course but I love it when they get opposition supporters on. I think David Mooney’s great. Ste Armstrong before he swerved the football off was as good as any of TAW’s regular contributors. The Chelsea supporter who they have on (Chris I think his name is) is clearly very sound. I’ve just seen that the lads from the Tenth Pint podcast have been on to talk about Everton - two young lads from the city who are just starting out and doing really well with their podcast. I wouldn’t pay for a subscription if there was not a variety of shows to listen to, so getting opposition supporters on is by its very nature a great way to achieve variety. Especially on TAW because it’s not like the usual fan media shite where the discussion is like “Núñez is a fraud. Discuss”

[decosabute]

Snip

Appreciate the time you've taken to write this Neil. Thanks. I still don't agree that there's little point in highlighting it and discussing it more regularly and more thoroughly on TAW shows, but I respect your position on it. I'm looking forward to hearing that show with David Mooney as well, and think that's an encouraging step.

I would also say though that - to get more specific than the general subject of sportswashing/financial doping - I was also writing in light of Man City very clearly trying to smear our manager. And Man City very clearly and deliberately not condemning some pretty disgraceful stuff in the crowd at Anfield.

Never mind it being a rigged game on the sporting side, I would say they're acting in some deplorable ways in a PR sense too, lacking some pretty basic human decency. Doesnt this also need to be discussed too? You can't just say that this is "part of the firmament". We've had a rivalry with Man United for generations and we obviously don't like each other as fanbases, but there's usually been a base level of decency in how the clubs themselves have acted towards one another. I think it's different in this rivalry. To quote Bodie in the Wire, "they're a new breed". The gloves are off on their side, and yet it's not getting confronted or called out.

And by the way, watch Newcastle target us for a made-up bitter rivalry the next few years - like Chelsea and City before them, they'll be looking for some second-hand legitimacy by feuding with one of the actual giants.

Thanks Neil. Just on the two points bolded above. Please don’t underestimate the value of eliciting the feeling of togetherness about the unfairness of financial doping and sportswashing, week after week if needs be. We need to know and say it is not right, will never be acceptable, will always be pointed out, and that we are not going mad. It should never be normalized. After every game week. And part of that is not going: “is the game rigged? Yes. Next question.” It involves pausing on the ‘yes’, and calling it out whenever we can. As long as it rigs the game, and Liverpool stay on the moral high ground. TAW would be doing our collective sanity a favour. And without getting to high and mighty, it’s important for the game. TAW has that profile.

Couldn't agree more with this. I personally need the feeling of togetherness. I need it for my sanity, because I'm genuinely not overstating it when I say that Man City have ruined the game for me. A burning sense of injustice means I simply can't enjoy it anymore because of what they've done/are doing. And when seemingly all the rest of the football world and mainstream media wants to give City a free pass on everything, then one can start to feel gaslit and cut off.

Therefore it's a seriously important point that one shouldn't underestimate the idea of people needing to know there's sanity out there and that others feel the same way.

[Leivashire]

Great pink.

“Juan Gibbons from the Anfield Tortilla” really made me laugh.

[Crosby Nick]

The ‘one for the anoraks’ gag at the end was beautifully laboured as well.

[decosabute]

George Trad has definitely been a good addition.

[tmsneil]

Appreciate the time you've taken to write this Neil. Thanks. I still don't agree that there's little point in highlighting it and discussing it more regularly and more thoroughly on TAW shows, but I respect your position on it. I'm looking forward to hearing that show with David Mooney as well, and think that's an encouraging step.

I would also say though that - to get more specific than the general subject of sportswashing/financial doping - I was also writing in light of Man City very clearly trying to smear our manager. And Man City very clearly and deliberately not condemning some pretty disgraceful stuff in the crowd at Anfield.

Never mind it being a rigged game on the sporting side, I would say they're acting in some deplorable ways in a PR sense too, lacking some pretty basic human decency. Doesnt this also need to be discussed too? You can't just say that this is "part of the firmament". We've had a rivalry with Man United for generations and we obviously don't like each other as fanbases, but there's usually been a base level of decency in how the clubs themselves have acted towards one another. I think it's different in this rivalry. To quote Bodie in the Wire, "they're a new breed". The gloves are off on their side, and yet it's not getting confronted or called out.

This though is part of my argument not to do it. What's the point of me getting a load of people in to stick up for our manager against them? You all know we back him to the hilt. It's dog bites man going out to a load of dog bites men listeners. Now at least get me in front of some BBC microphones and I will gladly relish the opportunity to make all those points you'd like to hear someone make. Every last one of them. We called out the BBC parroting their lines on the show and in my emailed piece but it isn't a discussion is it? Not in a mean way, just it becomes a load of people sitting around going "they are fucking dreadful, yes mate".

But:

Couldn't agree more with this. I personally need the feeling of togetherness. I need it for my sanity, because I'm genuinely not overstating it when I say that Man City have ruined the game for me. A burning sense of injustice means I simply can't enjoy it anymore because of what they've done/are doing. And when seemingly all the rest of the football world and mainstream media wants to give City a free pass on everything, then one can start to feel gaslit and cut off.

Therefore it's a seriously important point that one shouldn't underestimate the idea of people needing to know there's sanity out there and that others feel the same way.

I do have some sympathy with this so let me think about if there is a way to do it so that it isn't just a primal scream. It's probably an EPL so will speak to Jono about if he has time in the World Cup to do a bit on it.

[decosabute]

This though is part of my argument not to do it. What's the point of me getting a load of people in to stick up for our manager against them? You all know we back him to the hilt. It's dog bites man going out to a load of dog bites men listeners. Now at least get me in front of some BBC microphones and I will gladly relish the opportunity to make all those points you'd like to hear someone make. Every last one of them. We called out the BBC parroting their lines on the show and in my emailed piece but it isn't a discussion is it? Not in a mean way, just it becomes a load of people sitting around going "they are fucking dreadful, yes mate".

But:
I do have some sympathy with this so let me think about if there is a way to do it so that it isn't just a primal scream. It's probably an EPL so will speak to Jono about if he has time in the World Cup to do a bit on it.

Thanks again for the response Neil. I do appreciate you taking the time and while we might not be in total agreement, I understand your point of view.

Sounds like a nice idea with something around an EPL - love that show in general and have missed it (great to be hearing Ben Jonno again recently), so would be good to have it back regardless. Alternatively I feel that Gutmann could do something decent on this for an Unwrapped, as he trailed the possibility of himself recently.

[Jm55]

I can only speak for myself of course but I love it when they get opposition supporters on. I think David Mooney’s great. Ste Armstrong before he swerved the football off was as good as any of TAW’s regular contributors. The Chelsea supporter who they have on (Chris I think his name is) is clearly very sound. I’ve just seen that the lads from the Tenth Pint podcast have been on to talk about Everton - two young lads from the city who are just starting out and doing really well with their podcast. I wouldn’t pay for a subscription if there was not a variety of shows to listen to, so getting opposition supporters on is by its very nature a great way to achieve variety. Especially on TAW because it’s not like the usual fan media shite where the discussion is like “Núñez is a fraud. Discuss”

Fair enough, I’m probably a bit too tribal at times for my own good.

For example I had to switch off Ste Armstrong’s ‘what football means to me’ as I couldn’t get to grips with the fact he was a Manc, it just drives me nuts and I view everything through that lens.

[ljycb]

Fair enough, I’m probably a bit too tribal at times for my own good.

For example I had to switch off Ste Armstrong’s ‘what football means to me’ as I couldn’t get to grips with the fact he was a Manc, it just drives me nuts and I view everything through that lens.

Haha, I'm all for this approach in fairness!

[AmanShah21]

Havent been tuning in much this season though I do love and appreciate the work. Just personally like to not consume any additional liverpool content when we are not being boss week in week out.
In general though, i do have a minor gripe wherein I'd love the youtube subscription to have all the content. I am not a massive fan of the app and would love it if I could just switch to youtube and get everything there. I am subscribed to the website but would much rather have the youtube subscription if it carried the podcasts too.

[decosabute]

I can only speak for myself of course but I love it when they get opposition supporters on. I think David Mooney’s great. Ste Armstrong before he swerved the football off was as good as any of TAW’s regular contributors. The Chelsea supporter who they have on (Chris I think his name is) is clearly very sound. I’ve just seen that the lads from the Tenth Pint podcast have been on to talk about Everton - two young lads from the city who are just starting out and doing really well with their podcast. I wouldn’t pay for a subscription if there was not a variety of shows to listen to, so getting opposition supporters on is by its very nature a great way to achieve variety. Especially on TAW because it’s not like the usual fan media shite where the discussion is like “Núñez is a fraud. Discuss”

My issue that I raised previously wasn't with how well David Mooney or Alex Hurst can talk about the football itself. They're both articulate and fair minded when it comes to the on-field performances of their teams and ours. It's more just that it's always done from a position of it being completely normal and natural that their teams are where they are. That part - the fact that they don't really acknowledge the giant gulf state-shaped elephants in the room - is what drives me mad. But I don't really mean to get into this too much again, as it's been done for now.

In general I think that the vast majority of opposition fans on TAW are superb. Chris Barbour is brilliant and funny; Teza Simekulwa is probably the most reasonable, realistic United fan I've ever heard; Paul Duhaney has always been great on Spurs; Tom Fahy is good on Villa, and the various Arsenal fans are always decent value.

Also agree that the Everton lads they've had recently are good - again, fairly balanced and realistic, despite that fanbase in general not exactly being known for those traits.

[Dougle]

In general I think that the vast majority of opposition fans on TAW are superb. Chris Barbour is brilliant and funny; Teza Simekulwa is probably the most reasonable, realistic United fan I've ever heard; Paul Duhaney has always been great on Spurs; Tom Fahy is good on Villa, and the various Arsenal fans are always decent value.

Also agree that the Everton lads they've had recently are good - again, fairly balanced and realistic, despite that fanbase in general not exactly being known for those traits.

Gonna piggyback this one to say I love the Friday show and (nearly) all the contributors. Excellent stuff.

[Big Bamber]

My issue that I raised previously wasn't with how well David Mooney or Alex Hurst can talk about the football itself. They're both articulate and fair minded when it comes to the on-field performances of their teams and ours. It's more just that it's always done from a position of it being completely normal and natural that their teams are where they are. That part - the fact that they don't really acknowledge the giant gulf state-shaped elephants in the room - is what drives me mad. But I don't really mean to get into this too much again, as it's been done for now.

In general I think that the vast majority of opposition fans on TAW are superb. Chris Barbour is brilliant and funny; Teza Simekulwa is probably the most reasonable, realistic United fan I've ever heard; Paul Duhaney has always been great on Spurs; Tom Fahy is good on Villa, and the various Arsenal fans are always decent value.

Also agree that the Everton lads they've had recently are good - again, fairly balanced and realistic, despite that fanbase in general not exactly being known for those traits.

I think it’s best to just move on. I’ve accepted that TAW are going to IMHO soft pedal oppo fans due to their values, commitment to ‘sound’, and the need to keep them coming back. It has been harder to accept the approach to financial doping and sports washing, but I have. When you think about it, they have no choice but to Mean Jean Okerlund/WWE it. If you fully pull the thread on the rigged nature of the league, bright supporters will get disillusioned with the game, it knocks the whole house of cards, and the only losers might be TAW etc., and City and Newcastle just keep doing their thing.

[Fitzy.]

Enjoyed the main show that came out yesterday - as much as you can enjoy such a thing after the awful happenings of Saturday evening.

A quick note of praise about Neil's relentless pursuit of nuance and the 'grey area' that often (nearly always) gets brushed past when football is being chatted about. There's no question that recruitment issues appear to be at the heart of a lot of what's going wrong at the moment. However, Neil's point that there's an inextricable link between last season's delights and it being a really settled squad is so central to the discussion. Go heavy in summer 2021 and you may have disrupted the equilibrium of the squad.

Now this is conjecture but it's impossible to say we'd have 94pts with another decent midfielder as Liverpool were winning loads anyway.

For me, the journey that has got us to the peak of the mountain has a cost to it...which we are now paying for...annoyingly.

[red_Mark1980]

Enjoyed the main show that came out yesterday - as much as you can enjoy such a thing after the awful happenings of Saturday evening.

A quick note of praise about Neil's relentless pursuit of nuance and the 'grey area' that often (nearly always) gets brushed past when football is being chatted about. There's no question that recruitment issues appear to be at the heart of a lot of what's going wrong at the moment. However, Neil's point that there's an inextricable link between last season's delights and it being a really settled squad is so central to the discussion. Go heavy in summer 2021 and you may have disrupted the equilibrium of the squad.

Now this is conjecture but it's impossible to say we'd have 94pts with another decent midfielder as Liverpool were winning loads anyway.

For me, the journey that has got us to the peak of the mountain has a cost to it...which we are now paying for...annoyingly.

Nuance is something missing in most walks of life.

Many of us are quick to tell others that we know best and if only X had happened Y wouldn't have done.

If we don't try to chase city down last season do we have enough left to get us over the line in Paris?

If we actually chase city down in 2018/2019 and they drop points before Barca, are we all or nothing when we play them?

Very little is binary, black and white today. Talking about a football club, it's impossible to boil it down to single decisions.

I had a Villa fan on Saturday tell me we should have signed Haaland when we won the league. Because it's simple you see. He definitely knows more than anyone else. Why else is he in the pub on a Saturday night when he's got five kids and a sixth on the way.

[Ghost Town]

Excellent posts Fitzy and Red_mark. This nuance is what I'm always on about, what I'm looking for, why I keep calling people twats when they don't exhibit it.

I appreciate that I could be more diplomatic, like...