Topic: FSG discussion thread

[farawayred]

So what with all these resignations from the football operations folk at the top, Twitter would have you believe they've resigned after Klopp had them gagged and bound in some dingy basement in Anfield, apparently going full dictatorship with recruitment.

What with the demand for blood thirsty Saudis, I really wonder about the state of some 'fans' of the club.

Klopp acted Qatari-style.

[G Richards]

My personal hope in all this is that we don’t get bought by any dodgy regime as their sports washing instrument. On a personal note that would leave me very conflicted. Just wanted to say that up front, before trying something on, for discussion.

If a Saudi is interested, is there a difference between a government or ruling official buying LFC, and a private individual or group doing the same?

Hypothetically speaking, the private individual has the money, loves his footy, and wants to buy into the Prem and sees LFC as a great opportunity.

He doesn’t buy arms. He hasn’t executed anyone. He just happens to live in a country that has some laws we find appalling, with some very dodgy people at the helm.

At that point, is a sale to such a person an automatic no-no?

Just wondering what the viewpoint is.

[Cozzymoto]

Give us some of the Middle Eastern money. Dubai state owned will do.

[west_london_red]

My personal hope in all this is that we don’t get bought by any dodgy regime as their sports washing instrument. On a personal note that would leave me very conflicted. Just wanted to say that up front, before trying something on, for discussion.

If a Saudi is interested, is there a difference between a government or ruling official buying LFC, and a private individual or group doing the same?

Hypothetically speaking, the private individual has the money, loves his footy, and wants to buy into the Prem and sees LFC as a great opportunity.

He doesn’t buy arms. He hasn’t executed anyone. He just happens to live in a country that has some laws we find appalling, with some very dodgy people at the helm.

At that point, is a sale to such a person an automatic no-no?

Just wondering what the viewpoint is.

I think the issue is that in that part of the world there are very few super wealthy people or large businesses that are not heavily linked to the government and ruling family if not part of it. It’s how the ruling families keep control of the country and their position within it, independent wealth doesn’t exist because it’s a threat and if it does it can be appropriated by the state with no recourse.

[MonsLibpool]

My personal hope in all this is that we don’t get bought by any dodgy regime as their sports washing instrument. On a personal note that would leave me very conflicted. Just wanted to say that up front, before trying something on, for discussion.

If a Saudi is interested, is there a difference between a government or ruling official buying LFC, and a private individual or group doing the same?

Hypothetically speaking, the private individual has the money, loves his footy, and wants to buy into the Prem and sees LFC as a great opportunity.

He doesn’t buy arms. He hasn’t executed anyone. He just happens to live in a country that has some laws we find appalling, with some very dodgy people at the helm.

At that point, is a sale to such a person an automatic no-no?

Just wondering what the viewpoint is.

The Saudi Sports Minister went out of his way to state that they'll support private-sector bids. It's sportswashing mate.

[G Richards]

Thanks for the responses.

On a related note, is there a palatable Middle East scenario?

As in, a ‘least bad’ option that we could potentially get on board with?

[Historical Fool]

Looking like we definitely have a consensus re. A.N.Other but to shift the emphasis back to where it belongs (if you will indulge me)?

I, assume (rightly or wrongly) we might hear summat in terms of biggish news either during or immediately following this total clown show that's laughingly called a world cup.

When do you think we might be put out of our misery so to speak? Short term? Long term?

With all due respect, this thread wasn’t started to discuss Club transfer rumours in the first place

[MJD-L4]

Just wanted to gauge an opinion on here.

I was out with my brother in law tonight (avid, season ticket holding United fan) and we got to talking about our prospective takeovers.

We both agreed that, at the moment, city are cheating. A question came up though that somewhat perplexed both of us. If, say, Saudi Arabia were to take over both of us, that would be us, United, City & Newcastle all funded by 'oil money'.

The question was, how many PL clubs need to be financed by 'oil money' before it stops being considered cheating? This is taking out all the human rights and moral aspects of things and focusing purely in money.

Fwiw I'm against any such regime having any sort of stake in us. I would hope that whoever owns us next has made their money ethically and has our best intentions at heart (however fat fetched that may be).

I've had a few so this may be an incoherent rambling, so feel free to ignore. I may delete this when I wake up haha

[Dim Glas]

Give us some of the Middle Eastern money. Dubai state owned will do.

your post history is hilarious (only read like about 15 granted, but that was enough), nothing positive, just whinge whinge whinge.

[harleydanger]

My personal hope in all this is that we don’t get bought by any dodgy regime as their sports washing instrument. On a personal note that would leave me very conflicted. Just wanted to say that up front, before trying something on, for discussion.

If a Saudi is interested, is there a difference between a government or ruling official buying LFC, and a private individual or group doing the same?

Hypothetically speaking, the private individual has the money, loves his footy, and wants to buy into the Prem and sees LFC as a great opportunity.

He doesn’t buy arms. He hasn’t executed anyone. He just happens to live in a country that has some laws we find appalling, with some very dodgy people at the helm.

At that point, is a sale to such a person an automatic no-no?

Just wondering what the viewpoint is.

The Saudi royal family basically locked up the richest non-royals in Arabia and stole all their money 4 years ago. It's a totalitarian state. There's no 'individual' money in Saudi Arabia

[G Richards]

The Saudi royal family basically locked up the richest non-royals in Arabia and stole all their money 4 years ago. It's a totalitarian state. There's no 'individual' money in Saudi Arabia

Is there a palatable Middle East option? One that we might not like, but could at least get on board with as the ‘least bad’ outcome?

Or does such a thing not exist?

Edit, thanks for response above, too. Seems like Saudi would be very difficult, but just wondering if there’s anything else out there in the Middle East that might not be so objectionable?

[GreatEx]

Is there a palatable Middle East option? One that we might not like, but could at least get on board with as the ‘least bad’ outcome?

Or does such a thing not exist?

Edit, thanks for response above, too. Seems like Saudi would be very difficult, but just wondering if there’s anything else out there in the Middle East that might not be so objectionable?

I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere, but I remember someone asking why people were happy that Saudi Arabia beat Argentina and whether that was hypocritical, and I found it an odd question because that was a victory not for the ruling classes, but for the people of Saudi Arabia, with whom I of course have no quarrel, as they are the biggest victim of the regime, or rather second after the Yemenis. So to answer your question, I'd have no trouble with a sale to a politically independent entity from the Middle East with the means and vision to run our club, but I cannot think who would even come close to meeting those criteria in practice.

[G Richards]

Thanks for the answer. I will watch, like all reds, to see what happens.

Maybe the answer is a deep pocketed fella like Ballmer, if he branches out from the NBA. I don’t think there’s any evidence he is interested though.

I feel let down by the authorities here. We have good owners, clever people, who have grown the club solidly. We have been able to go toe to toe with Man City for the last few years, by fair means, which is enormously commendable. I take the sale, in whole or part, as a sign that our owners don’t feel like we can compete within a rules based order, since there are those without constraint.

[TwitterJayy]

I totally agree that politics should be kept out of sport. However, it's not the fans who introduced politics to the game, it was owners and the game's governing bodies. The PL allowed Abramovic to launder his money stolen from the people of Russia. The government weren't arsed because London was, awash with dodgy Russian money at the time. Only Putin's insanity put paid to that.

We are now enduring a wholly corrupt World Cup, given to Qatar for political reasons. Abu Dhabi and now Saudi Arabia have also been allowed to walk into our game and wreck its structure for their own ends. These were all political decisions made by corrupt people in positions of power. Facts are, it was those people who brought politics into football, and now they are bleating about it because fans can see it for what it is and have begun saying so.

Who knows who will buy us, but you have to ponder over who could afford us. When you do that it's pretty clear we aren't getting a paragon of virtue. Saudi seemingly expressed interest yesterday, so people here are always going to comment on that possibility. I think that's quite natural.

I long for the days when you could just roll up at Anfield and watch a game of football then go home/pub again and all the conversation centred on was the game itself. Unfortunately, those that run the game these days have brought their corruption and their politics into it. That genie is out of the bottle now, and it's not going back in. That's why you will see it talked about on here and elsewhere.

Fully understand it all and I do believe politics should be kept out of sport, however some times it’s needed like you say.

I’d love us to be owned by the fans and being able to go to Anfield and not worry about getting a ticket but times have changed for the worse. Were in a situation now though where nobody is going to be happy.

Any owner from now will either take money out of the club or use us for personal gain. I see both sides too it as well. I understand those who are against it because of there personal stance and also the other side, who want to see Liverpool do well and don’t have the understanding on the politics that comes with it.

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

I just don’t like this win at all costs attitude. Eventually it will morally bankrupt this club, and stances like JFT97 will become embroiled in it.

And enough of this whataboutery with the likes of Nike. It isn’t even close.

[Red-Soldier]

Just wanted to gauge an opinion on here.

I was out with my brother in law tonight (avid, season ticket holding United fan) and we got to talking about our prospective takeovers.

We both agreed that, at the moment, city are cheating. A question came up though that somewhat perplexed both of us. If, say, Saudi Arabia were to take over both of us, that would be us, United, City & Newcastle all funded by 'oil money'.

The question was, how many PL clubs need to be financed by 'oil money' before it stops being considered cheating? This is taking out all the human rights and moral aspects of things and focusing purely in money.

Fwiw I'm against any such regime having any sort of stake in us. I would hope that whoever owns us next has made their money ethically and has our best intentions at heart (however fat fetched that may be).

I've had a few so this may be an incoherent rambling, so feel free to ignore. I may delete this when I wake up haha

It'll never be called out as cheating, as the PL are only interested in money. Plus, our government openly encourage 'investment' from Gulf States.  They are part of the furniture mate, both here and in the US.  Currently, they are untouchable and can do more or less as they please.

[Redbonnie]

As ever a well balanced response.

My single biggest bug bear in all this, and why it feels like virtue signalling, is the same people who buy their LFC replica shirts (knowing they are made by exploited slave labour) are the ones on here talking about protecting human rights! 

We cannot save the world, but someone saying they would boycott the club in the event of a Saudi takeover because human rights need to be protected, I find is disingenuous to the cause when they at the same time supporting Nike in exploiting said human rights!

Simple thing, not whataboutery, don’t buy the LFC replica shirt, as you’re supporting exploitation.  You know you’re supporting exploitation.

So please don’t anyone tell me about human rights if you choose not to do the most basic thing of not supporting Nike.

It’s like you never read a word.

[So… Howard Philips]

your post history is hilarious (only read like about 15 granted, but that was enough), nothing positive, just whinge whinge whinge.

Amazing taking the trouble to sign up to a website and spend your time continually whingeing about the team you supposedly support.

Mind you there are some miserable fuckers about.

[FLRed67]

The Saudi royal family basically locked up the richest non-royals in Arabia and stole all their money 4 years ago. It's a totalitarian state. There's no 'individual' money in Saudi Arabia

The richest was very much a royal. Hung upside down for a few days until he coughed up his wealth.

Allegedly one of the biggest players in global human trafficking.

Used to be quite the darling of the global media. But has not been seen out and about since, alas .    .    .

Oh, and that so-called "democracy activist" who got served up on a platter in the Embassy in Turkey? Let's just say his family didn't become billionaires because of "oil" or because of how clever they were at writing code .    .     .

[Drinks Sangria]

Without wanting to get into a nonsense tit-for-tat, Nike have spent £1bn since 2015 to improve wages and working conditions in non-domestic locations. It doesn’t eradicate the issues they’ve helped to embed, but it’s a start and shows that there’s a tacit understanding at the company that they need to do something beyond just talk.

Spending some money on Nike products is not the same as tolerating or supporting a totalitarian dictatorship and as ever, RAWK baffles in that sentence having to be written.

[Red Beret]

It's a funny thing, this whataboutery (or wharaboutery as I originally typed it by accident, but is suitably scouse appropriate).

People use it to justify their own position, in this case, saying people who buy official merch/Nike are hypocrites, and if they don't wish to be branded as such, don't buy from the club's official sponsors. But at no point does said poster acknowledge the moral vacuum that exists within their own position.

Basically, it comes down to, "I love blood money, and you can't criticize me for that unless you yourself are whiter than white. And even then, it won't change my mind. Give me the journalist murderers."

For a fanbase that frequently suffers despicable chants of "murderers!" from rival fans, for some to want to be associated with actual murderers is very strange.

[naka]

Give us some of the Middle Eastern money. Dubai state owned will do.

Not for me
Prefer the way we are going about our business at the moment
Definitely would be hard to stomach watching lfc if they cheated like city.

[Koplass]

It's a funny thing, this whataboutery (or wharaboutery as I originally typed it by accident, but is suitably scouse appropriate).

People use it to justify their own position, in this case, saying people who buy official merch/Nike are hypocrites, and if they don't wish to be branded as such, don't buy from the club's official sponsors. But at no point does said poster acknowledge the moral vacuum that exists within their own position.

Basically, it comes down to, "I love blood money, and you can't criticize me for that unless you yourself are whiter than white. And even then, it won't change my mind. Give me the journalist murderers."

For a fanbase that frequently suffers despicable chants of "murderers!" from rival fans, for some to want to be associated with actual murderers is very strange.

Whataboutery is designed to shut down debate. It frames an individual's, potentially conflicting, views as more important than the actual issue at hand. If you can distract by talking about Nike shirts, you can avoid talking about bloody money and murderous owners.

[ScouserAtHeart]

Spending some money on Nike products is not the same as tolerating or supporting a totalitarian dictatorship and as ever, RAWK baffles in that sentence having to be written.

It's the same as saying if you've ever gotten a traffic fine in your life, you have no right to condemn a serial killer because you've also committed a crime

[rob1966]

It's a funny thing, this whataboutery (or wharaboutery as I originally typed it by accident, but is suitably scouse appropriate).

People use it to justify their own position, in this case, saying people who buy official merch/Nike are hypocrites, and if they don't wish to be branded as such, don't buy from the club's official sponsors. But at no point does said poster acknowledge the moral vacuum that exists within their own position.

Basically, it comes down to, "I love blood money, and you can't criticize me for that unless you yourself are whiter than white. And even then, it won't change my mind. Give me the journalist murderers."

For a fanbase that frequently suffers despicable chants of "murderers!" from rival fans, for some to want to be associated with actual murderers is very strange.

Should have left it at waraboutery.

You're spot on about what you say.

[rob1966]

It's the same as saying if you've ever gotten a traffic fine in your life, you have no right to condemn a serial killer because you've also committed a crime

Or if you've ever bought Adidas, seeing as Dassler paid huge bribes to Havelange to get the rights to televise the WC and as recently as last year they've been accused of stealing $109m in wages from workers in the far east and treating them like shit.

[Red Beret]

Should have left it at waraboutery.

I'm open to a RAWK autocorrect.

[Tobelius]

Or if you've ever bought Adidas, seeing as Dassler paid huge bribes to Havelange to get the rights to televise the WC and as recently as last year they've been accused of stealing $109m in wages from workers in the far east and treating them like shit.

Or if you've ever bought AGFA film,Bayer aspirin or something coated with a BASF product,you're as bad as them because they were IG Farben and used nazi provided slave labour.
Or a McNasty's hamburger because you know,slaves again.
It never ends this whataboutery with them,they always answer with this what about something something everyone's at fault with everything shit.
And yeah they should be honest about wanting a murderous state owner because of selfish reasons and not hide behind their false equivalence coping mechanisms.

[Son of Spion]

Or if you've ever bought AGFA film,Bayer aspirin or something coated with a BASF product,you're as bad as them because they were IG Farben and used nazi provided slave labour.
Or a McNasty's hamburger because you know,slaves again.
It never ends this whataboutery with them,they always answer with this what about something something everyone's at fault with everything shit.
And yeah they should be honest about wanting a murderous state owner because of selfish reasons and not hide behind their false equivalence coping mechanisms.

This is it for me. Just own your own beliefs.

It's quite clear that there are some people who would welcome anyone to our club just so long as they were willing to throw billions around in order to buy trophies. It's clear that they don't care if it's a totalitarian state and they don't care if it's a murderer. So why not just own the fact? Be honest, for goodness sake.

I could never respect the stance, but I could at least respect the honesty. I can even understand it to an extent. You look at the world around you and it's not a fair place. It's awash with injustice. It's dog eat dog. Cheats are prospering everywhere. Shallowness is celebrated whilst thought and consideration is ridiculed and dismissed. Everyone is being screwed over one way or another. So, in the face of all that, I can actually understand why some would just say "fuck it all, I want my slice of the pie too, fuck everyone else."

So I can see why, in the face of the rampant cheating and corruption in the game, some people might just want their own sportswasher too. Everyone else is cheating or looking to cheat, so why not us too? I get that. It's not my way personally, but I get it. It would be nice if those who would welcome a despot to our club dispensed with the "worrabout this, worrabout that?" and just owned their own beliefs.

[Red Beret]

Seems to me we need a version of this, only with Nike, Adidas etc at one end and Qatar, Saudi, Dubai etc at the other. All fans want to compete. Where do we draw the line?



Seriously, it boggles my mind that people out there want to compete at any price, no matter what the cost morally, and look to justify it by basically saying "it's all corrupt, we might as well be too. We're already tainted because X Y and Z, so may as well go all in."

That's it. That's their entire argument.

[Son of Spion]

Seems to me we need a version of this, only with Nike, Adidas etc at one end and Qatar, Saudi, Dubai etc at the other. All fans want to compete. Where do we draw the line?



Seriously, it boggles my mind that people out there want to compete at any price, no matter what the cost morally, and look to justify it by basically saying "it's all corrupt, we might as well be too. We're already tainted because X Y and Z, so may as well go all in."

That's it. That's their entire argument.

Exactly. That is the extent of their argument. I just wish they had the decency to own it rather than try to hide behind the whataboutery.

I blame the authorities for this. When they abandon rules and allow a free-for-all, anarchy reigns. Football abandoned its own rules for the 30 pieces of silver. Now, people just want to plunder what they can get out of it for themselves.

It's a bit like when law and order breaks down for a period of time. Parts of the community then join the criminal fraternity and go robbing and pillaging from their own local shops and grab anything they can get hold of. Two weeks later when it's all calmed down and order is restored, they all moan about the community having no facilities, no shops and the place is a mess, totally forgetting it was them that shit in their own bed.

People are seeing that the rules of the game have gone. Anyone can walk in now if they have the cash. Genuine murderers are actually welcome. Totalitarian states are welcome. Gay fearing/hating, women fearing/hating people are welcome. All pass the 'fit and proper' test now, as long as they bring their money. People are seeing a free-for-all, and some want to be part of the looting. It's all a bit "well someone else smashed the door down, so I may as well grab myself some sportswear and a telly too."

[SamLad]

I just don’t like this win at all costs attitude. Eventually it will morally bankrupt this club, and stances like JFT97 will become embroiled in it.

And enough of this whataboutery with the likes of Nike. It isn’t even close.

pretty soon it'll be "have you ever worn leather shoes or sat on a leather chair?  whatabout the cows!"

[SamLad]

It's a funny thing, this whataboutery (or wharaboutery as I originally typed it by accident, but is suitably scouse appropriate).

LOL about 10 seconds before I saw that I was thinking we should use "worraboutery" 

[SamLad]

It's the same as saying if you've ever gotten a traffic fine in your life, you have no right to condemn a serial killer because you've also committed a crime

that's listed in Chapter 17 of The Big Book Of False Equivalency.

[Son of Spion]

pretty soon it'll be "have you ever worn leather shoes or sat on a leather chair?  whatabout the cows!"

"You farted once, so have no right to campaign for clean air."

[SamLad]

pretty soon it'll be "have you ever worn leather shoes or sat on a leather chair?  whatabout the cows!"

damn.  I posted that before seeing that sign in the post above.

[SamLad]

"You farted once, so have no right to campaign for clean air."

excellent 

[rob1966]

"You farted once, so have no right to campaign for clean air."

My farts kill germs

[SamLad]

My farts kill germs

mine disable most passers-by.

[Billy Elliot]

Seems to me we need a version of this, only with Nike, Adidas etc at one end and Qatar, Saudi, Dubai etc at the other. All fans want to compete. Where do we draw the line?



Seriously, it boggles my mind that people out there want to compete at any price, no matter what the cost morally, and look to justify it by basically saying "it's all corrupt, we might as well be too. We're already tainted because X Y and Z, so may as well go all in."

That's it. That's their entire argument.

The photo just had me thinking of being away to Olmpia Ljubljana in the UEFA Cup, in the good old days when anybody arsed enough could go. Had a nice burger at the "Hot Horse" burger bar - didn't realise what I'd had til I got back home.