Author Topic: The War In Afghanistan  (Read 87186 times)

Offline TipTopKop

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The War In Afghanistan
« on: July 11, 2009, 03:53:31 pm »
I didn't want the casualties thread derailed, so I thought I'd ask my questions in here :

1) Why are the Taliban still a force in Afghanistan, 8 years after coaliton troops went in ?.

2) Why 'go for it' now rather than years before ?. I know there are elections coming up, but why was such a push not done years earlier ?.

3) What kind of equipment are our troops lacking, that people have said they need out there ?.

4) Why aren't Taliban casualty figures published by Nato or UK/US forces, and only 'western' ones detailed ?.

Any feedback/opinion on this war in general is greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 03:55:19 pm by TipTopKop »

Offline El Campeador

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2009, 04:10:26 pm »

2) Why 'go for it' now rather than years before ?. I know there are elections coming up, but why was such a push not done years earlier ?.


Have you heard of a country called Iraq?

Offline TipTopKop

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2009, 04:22:08 pm »
Have you heard of a country called Iraq?
Point taken, but Iraq was always the US' 'baby', and pressure back in the US forced them to apply the surge to either make or break it. Afghanistan was more of a 'global' operation, and the war has been going on there longer, going passive for so long it seems.

There may be a similar pressure now in the US to end it as it was in Iraq, but I haven't picked up on it that much, perhaps too buried under all the Credit Crunch headlines and so on.

Offline Enders

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2009, 04:31:00 pm »
1) The mighty red army couldn't beat them within the best part of 10 years so the question is, is it a war that can be won?

2) Due to the world economic crisis, UK plc doesn't want to be shitting money down the toilet like its going out of fashion for another 8 years with no end in sight

3) Not equipment lacking, so much as manpower. When the US finally fucks off out of Iraq they might want to help finish the war they started in Afghanistan too. No guarantees of course.

4) Because no-one in the media gives a shit about enemy losses? Who knows how many Taliban there are in the first place and how would you get the information? Quoted from another forum:

'We (the media mainly) end up making so much of a fuss about our dead servicemen that it puts the live ones at risk, because Harry the Hajji listening to the BBC World Service sees how much we care about our losses, and it makes the soldiers a target. I mean if you're a guy fighting a war against an enemy, and you get to hear about it on the radio and the news every time you or of your guys makes a kill and see the damage it does, how is that going to make you feel? Pretty fucking good I would think'
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 04:33:39 pm by Enders »
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Offline El Campeador

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2009, 04:35:50 pm »
Point taken, but Iraq was always the US' 'baby', and pressure back in the US forced them to apply the surge to either make or break it. Afghanistan was more of a 'global' operation, and the war has been going on there longer, going passive for so long it seems.

It's not been going for that much longer TTK. Afghanistan was invaded about 18 months before Iraq, and most of those 18 months were spent patting ourselves on the back for freeing Afghan women. Truth is, they've been simultaneous conflicts for most of this decade.

Fact is, they took resources and planning time away from one another.

Offline AllyouneedisRush

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2009, 04:47:26 pm »
I didn't want the casualties thread derailed, so I thought I'd ask my questions in here :

1) Why are the Taliban still a force in Afghanistan, 8 years after coaliton troops went in ?.

Because they have loads of fighters willing to join up from loads of countries around the world...and they know what they are doing... if the might of the soviets couldn't beat them, it shows that they are no pushover

2) Why 'go for it' now rather than years before ?. I know there are elections coming up, but why was such a push not done years earlier ?.

The problem was manpower, the coalition forces only had enough troops to keep hold of ground already won, by pushing further they would of spread themselves to thin... The US have sent over a load more troops which now allows the push...

3) What kind of equipment are our troops lacking, that people have said they need out there ?.

Not sure if this is still the case....

4) Why aren't Taliban casualty figures published by Nato or UK/US forces, and only 'western' ones detailed ?.

There is one.... but can only be an estimate...

Any feedback/opinion on this war in general is greatly appreciated.
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2009, 06:14:46 pm »
To those comparing the current war in Afghanistan to the Soviet war in Afghanistan in the 80s (Enders & Allyouneedisrush), how similar are the two Afghan opponents?

I know the Mujahideen had a lot greater backing (arms, training, money) from foreign powers than the Taliban have now, eg, from the USA, China, Iran and Europe amongst other nations.

Also, the Mujahideen cause had much greater support from Muslims around the world. I know some extremist non-Afghan Muslims still go out and fight for the Taliban, but nowhere near the level that went to fight the Soviets.

All in all it seems the Red Army faced a much tougher enemy. So can the reason that the Soviets couldnt beat them in 9 years really be used?

Offline KarlHungus

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2009, 06:56:34 pm »
Yes, the Red Army did face a stronger and more numerous enemy and that war was fought on a larger scale.

The Coalition is not walking the path of Soviet forces in the 80s - not the same actors, not the same stage.

Offline AllyouneedisRush

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2009, 08:04:14 pm »
I Agree what you say regarding the backing of the Mujahadeen with training and weapons... but would like to know how large the Soviet army was compared to the current coalition one...

Either way, I'm still not really sure what the end goal is regarding Afghanistan.
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Offline GBF

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2009, 11:14:31 pm »
I didn't want the casualties thread derailed, so I thought I'd ask my questions in here :

1) Why are the Taliban still a force in Afghanistan, 8 years after coaliton troops went in ?.

2) Why 'go for it' now rather than years before ?. I know there are elections coming up, but why was such a push not done years earlier ?.

3) What kind of equipment are our troops lacking, that people have said they need out there ?.

4) Why aren't Taliban casualty figures published by Nato or UK/US forces, and only 'western' ones detailed ?.

Any feedback/opinion on this war in general is greatly appreciated.

1.  How can you defeat a group that believe in getting a virgin when they die?  Also the Afghan govt and the afghans were slowly getting discouraged from those increasing "friendly" fires on their people or bombing of weddings or any gathering.

2. It was hard to get the other countries to get active instead of "hiding" in the safer areas of the country.  But now it seems they are using the Obama factor and the upcoming election to go for it.

3. Looks like lack of helicopters is probably the main one, but it seems they will get some from those leaving Iraq.

4. I dont think it is easy to go next to the bodies and count how many are killed.  Its an obvious trap.


The only way they will make it better is by taking control on Pakistan.  All they are doing now is pushing the taliban into the mountains (pakistan) and there we go a very very unstable nation.

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Offline Mad Men

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2009, 01:22:33 am »
Why are we in afghanistan?

1) 911
2) 7/7
3) The spread of radical islam by a few fundamental idiots who are not interested in equality of genders, education for women nor peace with others races but think Islam is the end all and be all of all religions in the world and anyone who isn't a good muslim is an infidel and should die.
4) 911 operation conducted by the idiots who did point 1) and inspired more idiots to conduct point 2).
5) A group of so called islamic intellects who have their own interpretation of a century old Quran and are reading it word for word and thinking events centuries ago should be applied in today's world, where the vast majority of muslims want peace, personal development, jobs, and education and to live in harmony with other races and religions. These radicals think women should be treated like slaves and grow poppy as their main means of creating revenue to run their operations and government, thus supplying the world's opium and drug trade with grade A merchandise thats wrecking havoc in Europe, Australia in particular.
5) If you still have doubts about how radical these idiots are, goggle daniel pearl, decapitation and watch how they treat non-believers.

My only comment on the combat situation at the moment is a great amount of confusion. On one hand, the government is saying yes, we have adequate chinooks and merlins (they aren't even out there yet) out in Afghanistan and are sending more chinooks from Iraq (they are being re-kitted and won't all be in Iraq for another 3 months or so). Then, we now have a situation where the army says, NO, we don't have everything we need; we need 2000 more men.

I don't know about you fella's but this sounds like its going the way of how the gurkha issue was handled by Brown; he will lose when public sentiment shifts dramatically in the next two-three weeks against him and his government.

But the main point in all of this is, HOW LONG before these politicians realize whats at stake here. Its the summer months now and the best time to gain solid ground in Afghanistan before september comes around, the rains start and winter when you can forget about trying to conduct operations with poor weather and adverse conditions. We only have a 2 month window of opportunity to move as many men and equipment as possible into some of these remote area's along the border with the PAK.

MP's are on a 6 week break NOW, so why do they not all visit the front lines in afghanistan and go on patrol with our soldiers perhaps that will provide them with the neccesary perspective to do better in future.

Thats my perspective on the matter, having done two tours out in A-Ghanistan.

I can't see this current Labour government fending off a general election nor calls for Brown to step down for much longer.....its gonna happen.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 01:26:23 am by Somebody-Special »
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Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2009, 09:04:04 am »
1) Why are the Taliban still a force in Afghanistan, 8 years after coaliton troops went in ?.

Because, like the war in Iraq, it's seen as a war between Islam and the west and there's Muslims from as far a field as Bosnia and Chechenya as well as all over the Middle East turning up to fight.

2) Why 'go for it' now rather than years before ?. I know there are elections coming up, but why was such a push not done years earlier ?.

Because dickheads Bush and Blair thought that invading Iraq was a better idea

3) What kind of equipment are our troops lacking, that people have said they need out there ?.

From the British point of view - helicopters is the main thing. We just don't have enough of them. To put it into perspective, the US 101st Airborne Division has more helicopters than the entire British Armed Forces. There's an absolute multitude of equipment that we're either short of or needs replacing but helicopters are the absolute priority. Both transport (Chinooks especially) and attack (Apache).

4) Why aren't Taliban casualty figures published by Nato or UK/US forces, and only 'western' ones detailed ?.

A variety of reasons - westerners don't really care, Taliban body counts are hard to confirm because there's a risk to Coalition forces if they advance to abandoned enemy positions to try and count bodies, it doesn't sell papers like a picture of the latest British soldier to die and probably a whole lot more that I haven't thought of.
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Offline Mad Men

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2009, 10:39:47 am »
Just to tag on to what BIGDavalad has alreadystated, you don't find taliban bodies consistently for a number of reasons:

1) not wanting the infidel to touch or remove bodies of martys.
2) last rites and prayers for those performing jihad and immediate burial is prefered by family, friends and allies of the taliban rather than leaving the bodies out to rot
3) there isn't much left of the bodies after a missle strike

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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2009, 11:21:17 am »
I Agree what you say regarding the backing of the Mujahadeen with training and weapons... but would like to know how large the Soviet army was compared to the current coalition one...

According to trusty Wikipedia:

On the Soviet side: 215,000 (inc 100,000 Afghans)

On the Coalition side: 169,470 (inc 82,780 Afghans)

Offline KarlHungus

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2009, 12:11:17 pm »
Just to add, around 40% of the Soviet troops in Afghanistan were engaged in combat operations. The rest were involved with economic infrastructure buildup.

The Afghan National Army was ineffective and Soviet troops were required to "finish the job" almost all the time.

I'd like to know what the status is of the current Afghan military. 

Offline Mad Men

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2009, 01:17:57 pm »
Just to add, around 40% of the Soviet troops in Afghanistan were engaged in combat operations. The rest were involved with economic infrastructure buildup.

The Afghan National Army was ineffective and Soviet troops were required to "finish the job" almost all the time.

I'd like to know what the status is of the current Afghan military. 

Still lacking in confidence for the most part, leadership and officer training is more effective today than it was in 2003, but what is still a big problem is corruption, too much politics amongst the politicians, and a lack of co-ordination amongest the various warlords who are now in government representing the various provinces where they used to rule and still "rule" till today.

A lack of fundamental basic education is rampant amongst the vast majority of recruits but what they lack in education, they make up in their ability to operate in terrible afternoon heat and up at high altitudes.

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Offline Monkey Red

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2009, 03:55:26 pm »
I reckon you can plow as many troops and equipment into Afghan as you want, at the end of the day that shithole is a feudal state, always has been, always will be. The people are used to having a "master" or warlords ruling over them, not some crappy thing called democracy, which they have never heard of. If mullah whatever tells them that the Coalition forces are to blame for the lack of rain, they will believe him, if he tells them that growing opium is the way forward they will grow it. Why should your basic, uneducated Afghan believe anything promised them, especially by ballbags like GW Bush, Blair and Gordon Brown, they've never spoken to a normal Afghan, whereas mullah whatever is there all the time, telling them what to believe and what not. We will never succeed in Afghan in a million years, even with the biggest body count in history. As soon as one Taliban falls there's another slobbering at the thought of his virgins awaiting. And in the meantime British troops are dying like flies because the Government is too stingy and uninterested in their wellbeing and safety to pay for adequate equipment and vehicles, in order to save lives. Do the maths, 16 billion for safer vehicles, or a couple of million in compo for dead soldiers? Easy innit!
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2009, 08:36:10 pm »
You're obviously passionate about whats going on in Afghanistan Monkey, but do you really need to spout such patronising talk such as calling it a shithole or saying the people need a "master".

The reason Afghanistan is such a state is pretty much down to us (Britain) fucking it over, along with the Russians, ever since The Great Game almost 200 years ago.

Dont get me wrong, it wasnt exactly the Land Of Milk And Honey before that, well definitely not since Ghengis and his boys rode through there, but it is pretty much our fault the people there have been suffering for the past two centuries.

Not saying that we owe them democracy and should sacrifice our soldiers to get it, but that sort of condescending talk is well out of order considering we put them in that position.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2009, 08:37:32 pm »
My exact thoughts for a very long time Monkey Red.  Anyone who knows their history knows that Afghanistan is a rock on which "intruders" are routinely broken.  Wellington said that the measure of a great general was to know when to retreat and to have the courage to do so.  Since there is fuck all chance of one of them hoving into view any time soon, I guess its down to public outrage at the paucity of the support.  Latest is eight Chinooks mothballed since 2001 'cos the computers are fucked so they can't work at night............    ::) :wanker
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Offline Mad Men

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2009, 11:51:04 pm »
My exact thoughts for a very long time Monkey Red.  Anyone who knows their history knows that Afghanistan is a rock on which "intruders" are routinely broken.  Wellington said that the measure of a great general was to know when to retreat and to have the courage to do so.  Since there is fuck all chance of one of them hoving into view any time soon, I guess its down to public outrage at the paucity of the support.  Latest is eight Chinooks mothballed since 2001 'cos the computers are fucked so they can't work at night............    ::) :wanker

Thats not a new story. It was known a year and a half ago when the rag leaked it but it was already known within the forces that the upgrades were screwed up back in 04-05 and the chinooks are sitting ideally in hangers doing jack=sqwat.
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Offline TomG

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2009, 06:45:15 am »
How many more of our boys need to die before they are brought home?

I apologise but I do not know the number of British deaths in Afganistan but I know that Australia has had too many. To be frank, one is too many.

My good mate Trev has done two tours and on the last he was standing next to a mate who has shot in the head.
He asks himself "Why are we there?" I ask the same thing. This war has dragged on for too long. The chance of victory is gone. The only problem is how do we pull out without the country completely imploding?

My answer: Who cares? I couldn't give two shits what happens as long as no more of our boys die in that hell hole.
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Offline Mad Men

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2009, 06:56:00 am »
How many more of our boys need to die before they are brought home?

I apologise but I do not know the number of British deaths in Afganistan but I know that Australia has had too many. To be frank, one is too many.

My good mate Trev has done two tours and on the last he was standing next to a mate who has shot in the head.
He asks himself "Why are we there?" I ask the same thing. This war has dragged on for too long. The chance of victory is gone. The only problem is how do we pull out without the country completely imploding?

My answer: Who cares? I couldn't give two shits what happens as long as no more of our boys die in that hell hole.



You neither understand why we are there nor what is at stake if we do pull out.

And stop talking about "how many more do we have to lose."

You know neither their commitment, desire nor pride to serve and to be out there in the first place.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 08:30:08 am by Somebody-Special »
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Offline GBF

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2009, 07:02:26 am »
How many more of our boys need to die before they are brought home?

I apologise but I do not know the number of British deaths in Afganistan but I know that Australia has had too many. To be frank, one is too many.

My good mate Trev has done two tours and on the last he was standing next to a mate who has shot in the head.
He asks himself "Why are we there?" I ask the same thing. This war has dragged on for too long. The chance of victory is gone. The only problem is how do we pull out without the country completely imploding?

My answer: Who cares? I couldn't give two shits what happens as long as no more of our boys die in that hell hole.

retreat?  Thats not even an option.  Afghanistan is the training and recruitment ground for those freaks.  The west pulled out some years ago, then we had 9/11, 7/7 and many others.
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Offline Monkey Red

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2009, 09:08:39 am »
You're obviously passionate about whats going on in Afghanistan Monkey, but do you really need to spout such patronising talk such as calling it a shithole or saying the people need a "master".

The reason Afghanistan is such a state is pretty much down to us (Britain) fucking it over, along with the Russians, ever since The Great Game almost 200 years ago.

Dont get me wrong, it wasnt exactly the Land Of Milk And Honey before that, well definitely not since Ghengis and his boys rode through there, but it is pretty much our fault the people there have been suffering for the past two centuries.

Not saying that we owe them democracy and should sacrifice our soldiers to get it, but that sort of condescending talk is well out of order considering we put them in that position.
I didn´t say they "need" a master, but they are used to the feudal system, a warlord ruling them, or a corrupt government, makes no difference to them, they plod along regardless. And, that country was a shithole before we first went there, we didn´t leave them with anything when we left the last time, they just carried on with there infighting as per usual, their suffering for the last two centuries has nothing to do with our adventures there. They have never given a shit about governments, kings, or occupiers, their sole allegiance lies with their clans, or warlords. Fuck all condescending about it.
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Offline GBF

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2009, 09:23:58 am »
I didn´t say they "need" a master, but they are used to the feudal system, a warlord ruling them, or a corrupt government, makes no difference to them, they plod along regardless. And, that country was a shithole before we first went there, we didn´t leave them with anything when we left the last time, they just carried on with there infighting as per usual, their suffering for the last two centuries has nothing to do with our adventures there. They have never given a shit about governments, kings, or occupiers, their sole allegiance lies with their clans, or warlords. Fuck all condescending about it.

Dude go and read about the (dirty) history of your country's involvement in other countries before you judge these countries. 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 09:25:29 am by GBF »
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Offline Mad Men

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2009, 09:32:07 am »
I didn´t say they "need" a master, but they are used to the feudal system, a warlord ruling them, or a corrupt government, makes no difference to them, they plod along regardless. And, that country was a shithole before we first went there, we didn´t leave them with anything when we left the last time, they just carried on with there infighting as per usual, their suffering for the last two centuries has nothing to do with our adventures there. They have never given a shit about governments, kings, or occupiers, their sole allegiance lies with their clans, or warlords. Fuck all condescending about it.


The reason they are the way they are is because till 911, the world didn't give a flying fuck about it. Now, its become a safe haven for radical islamic terrorists, poppy growing that funds these terrorist activities and also floods the european and global market.

We have a job to do, and fuck anyone who is gonna stand in our way. We're gonna get it done, one way or another.

Women and children will have an opportunity to be human beings instead of slaves, families will have access to clean drinking water, opportunities at farming and decent infrastructure and hopefully an end to being terrorised by the taliban.

Every family I met when I was out there for 2 years wanted us to stay and literally begged us not to go. I don't blame them.

This is what we do. And we do it very well. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bM8gOyjeuc

Offline GBF

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2009, 09:43:38 am »

The reason they are the way they are is because till 911, the world didn't give a flying fuck about it. Now, its become a safe haven for radical islamic terrorists, poppy growing that funds these terrorist activities and also floods the european and global market.

and lets not forget that the "west" once finance those murderers in order to take a democratic government out just because they are friends with the russians.
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Offline TomG

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2009, 01:27:39 am »
You know neither their commitment, desire nor pride to serve and to be out there in the first place.

I have no doubts about our boys commitment and pride in serving our country. But that still doesnt answer my question of why are we still there? How does this benefit our country?

I know its a sensitive issue but is it a possibility that our presense in that country fuels the fires as it were? That young men learn to hate the west because we occupy their country? And if we left then maybe there wouldnt be so much hate towards us?

I will support our troops no matter what they do or where they are, as they deserve nothing but respect from me, and from the Australian public, but it still doesnt change my opinion that we should not be there as this war cannot be won.

What is the price of victory in Afganistan? What can be considered victory in Afganistan? What are the benefits for our country?
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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2009, 02:40:55 am »
I'm not in the army or have been to Afghanistan (and so will bow to the knowledge of those who are/have), but I have a friend who has and I've been talking about stuff with him and asked him a bit myself. I also have a bit of knowledge of the history and what's going on in the region (it interests me).

 
Just to add, around 40% of the Soviet troops in Afghanistan were engaged in combat operations. The rest were involved with economic infrastructure buildup.

The Afghan National Army was ineffective and Soviet troops were required to "finish the job" almost all the time.

I'd like to know what the status is of the current Afghan military. 

The previous soviet inspired Afghan army (DRA) was completely a different force. It was a reluctant conscript army and it's members were infamous for frequent desertion and often outright joining the Mujahideen. Units in the DRA were known for being massively below strength (usually about 50% of the size they were on paper) and when ordered to any serious fighting often joined the guerillas. The Russians literally used to have 'press gangs' roaming the country to get any Afghans to join the army. They only got their act together in the last couple of years after the Russians left and they were forced to operate on their own. To everyone's surprise, they held on for a couple of years before they collapsed.

The new western-backed Afghan National Army (ANA) has it's own problems. It's often poorly-equipped, poorly educated (many soldiers are completely illiterate) and relies heavily upon recruiting minorites in some areas (Tajiks, Hazaras etc) as they are opposed to being ruled again by the mainly ethnic Pashtun Taliban. Afghanistan has never had a particularly strong sense of state and has long been plagued by 'warlordism' so trying to constitute a complete new modern army there, right in the middle of a vicious insurgency too is never going to be an easy task. However in comparison to it's predecessor it's a motivated and growing volunteer force and it's soldiers are brave and fiercely hate their enemies. They're also a long way from being independant in terms of leadership and support (engineers, fuel, resupply etc).

Also the size of the western contingent is much smaller than it is on paper, as some of the forces from NATO (like the Germans, Spanish, Italians) etc) will only take the on safe areas and refuse to do any missions that involve fighting. Only a few nations like the British, Americans and Canadians will deploy to the South and East (where most of the fighting takes place) in any real numbers. "All in" the NATO forces number approximately 60,000. However of those only about 40,000 are from nations who's leaders have cleared them to fight, and of those 40,000 not all are combat troops.

As to why they are unsuccessful in their efforts in Afghanistan, here is a quick comparison. Iraq is both a smaller country geographically than Afghanistan and has a smaller population than Afghanistan. Iraq also has comparatively much easier terrain to operate in, being a relatively flat country with well established intrastructure (motorways, hospitals, police stations etc) and a history of having a well-established state. During the occupation of Iraq, the Americans alone had 140,000-160,000 soldiers in their attempts to pacify the country and in the end were only just successful (arguably). That's not counting other nations that were aiding them in Iraq like, well Britain for example. And the Iraqi security forces are much stronger than their Afghan equivalents too.

So as you can see, 40,000 troops trying to keep Aghanistan quiet is almost a war on a shoestring. There's far too much territory for them to cover, in places we're just holding a few fixed locations with what forces we can. My friend made a point to me. When we sent our forces into Helmand province, we got given 8 Chinook helicopters to support them as heavy lift capacity, backed up by a smattering of other types (some Lynxs etc). When the Americans deployed some of their marines into Helmand, they brought over 100 helicopters with them. We were flying the same 8 helicopters to death cause we're too incompetent to get the ones we have working and we haven't the budget for more aircrew (largely because in June 2004 Brown insisted it was spending too much on them. He slashed the budget from £4.5 billion to £3 billion) and the Americans come in and have their runways choked up with the things. Though that's about to change finally with the addition of some more Chinooks and Merlin helicopters at long last. The equipment we're lacking isn't just helicopters but because of the lack of them we're forced to move everything by road, whereas the Americans just air drop many of the things we can't, making our troops easer to ambush/bomb. Also many of the vehicles we've used in the past are horrendous (remember the infamous snatch landrovers?) and are now considered death traps compared to the mine-resistant vehicles replacing them. The other problem with Afghanistan is Pakistan and their border regions are safe havens for our enemies controlled by the Taliban. Many of the Talibs aren't Afghan at all and are hated by the natives for coming into their country and making trouble. Every spring the Taliban get reinforced and replendished as a new wave of Pakistani nutcases make their way across the border itching to die for Jihad.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 04:48:30 am by Suspect Package. »
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Offline El Campeador

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2009, 03:03:15 am »
That's a fantastic post Suspect, thanks for that.

Offline jambutty

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2009, 03:22:20 am »
Imo, the Taleban can't be beaten militarily.

The answer is hearts and minds.

Schools and roads. 

And footy.

Internet access.

Community workers, nurses have to live in their villages.  As many women as possible.  Maybe even military women.

Democracy is the enemy of fundamentalism.  It shouldn't be taught, it should be examplified in the community.
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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2009, 03:26:48 am »
We have 8 chinooks operating from the 20 that were sent to Afghanistan, 8 in the Helmund province. 2 are being used for special operations...

And yes, we are in need of more choppers and more ground infantry to be honest.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 12:16:55 am by Somebody-Special »
This is what we do. And we do it very well. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bM8gOyjeuc

Offline Suspect Package.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2009, 05:04:42 am »
Imo, the Taleban can't be beaten militarily.

The answer is hearts and minds.

Schools and roads. 

And footy.

Internet access.

Community workers, nurses have to live in their villages.  As many women as possible.  Maybe even military women.

Democracy is the enemy of fundamentalism.  It shouldn't be taught, it should be examplified in the community.

You're right in that hearts and minds are vital, but we're actually winning that part in most places. The average muslim in the far east or Pakistan or wherever reads "33 killed in NATO bombing" and thinks Imperialistic crusader bastards! etc. But this is nothing to the average Afghan who's has been living with war for decades, doesn't read the papers and those who deal with us often think compared to the Russians we're too soft.

I remember reading a story somewhere that illustrated how the Afghans generally do still like us compared to how they view the Soviets. To say they despised to the Russians and the previous communist puppet government would be a massive understatement. One day some NATO soldiers were waiting for a meeting with some Lithuanian soldiers (I think it was). When the Lithuanians arrived, Afghans from all around saw the Russian-made vehicles (and thinking they were the Russians back) descended on the Russian vehicles and started showering them with rocks and stones.

As to whether the war is winnable militarily, I asked something very similiar my friend.

He said "We can win if we are allowed to do a real job of it. Can't win a fight when you're only doing it half arsed".

If you want some good sources to read on Afghanistan, I suggest http://www.michaelyon-online.com/michael-s-dispatches/ and http://www.longwarjournal.org/.
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Offline Mad Men

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2009, 05:08:52 am »

The majority of Afghans I have meet since 2003 want us there and would rather there was good government, law and order, and end to crimes commited by the taliban and militants as well as decent infrastructure and an education for their girls and boys.

They are not stupid; they know education is fundamental to the future of their children in earning a decent living and becoming somebody in life.

This is what we do. And we do it very well. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bM8gOyjeuc

Offline jambutty

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2009, 11:53:47 am »
He said "We can win if we are allowed to do a real job of it. Can't win a fight when you're only doing it half arsed".

The same argument was used in Vietnam.  By military that thought the answer was to bomb the fuck out of them.  The more you bomb and use force, the stronger the resolve of the oppo to resist.

It only takes one small cadre of dedicated individuals to terrorise thousands. The elephant has no defense against the flea.
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Offline TipTopKop

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2009, 03:35:21 pm »
I know one of the key events that helped Iraq's improvement is the training and setup of Iraq's own security forces, and passing control onto them, this process was initially laughed at (they also faced many initial challenges, with suicide bombers continuously picking out lines of potential recruits waiting to sign up), but this process came through immensely as more and more personnel were recruited and control was eventually given to them.
 
Is there a similar operation going on in Afghanistan, and if so, how far down the line is it ?.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2009, 03:57:41 pm »
I know one of the key events that helped Iraq's improvement is the training and setup of Iraq's own security forces, and passing control onto them, this process was initially laughed at (they also faced many initial challenges, with suicide bombers continuously picking out lines of potential recruits waiting to sign up), but this process came through immensely as more and more personnel were recruited and control was eventually given to them.
 
Is there a similar operation going on in Afghanistan, and if so, how far down the line is it ?.

Yes but this has been a process thats been going on since 2003 actively. The problem is the numbers. At present if memory serves me, the target was about 120,000 afghan troops for their national army, including border guards and a small aviation wing but at present, that number is closer to about 80,000-90,000 men only which as you can imagine is well below the targets.

But lets be realistic, 120,000 men IS NOT going to be able to handle border security, and also be able to wage a war with the taliban. I think a more realistic number is 200,000 men.

I know, that sounds absurd but Afghanistan is one big mother fucker of a country and 120,000 men is simply inadequate. Thats just my opinion and the conclusion we came to back in 07 when we were on our 2nd tour.

This is what we do. And we do it very well. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bM8gOyjeuc

Offline KarlHungus

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2009, 10:36:45 pm »
Thanks for that post Suspect.

I'm very interested in Afghanistan since my father was a Spetsnaz soldier in the war in the 80s.

Some of the things he has told me about his experience and some of the missions they completed are absolutely insane.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 10:55:34 pm by KarlHungus »

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2009, 11:43:06 pm »
Thanks for that post Suspect.

I'm very interested in Afghanistan since my father was a Spetsnaz soldier in the war in the 80s.

Some of the things he has told me about his experience and some of the missions they completed are absolutely insane.

 :o Is your dad as hard as this guy?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/guBnSe-ponQ&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/guBnSe-ponQ&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;</a>


Offline KarlHungus

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2009, 12:04:16 am »
:o Is your dad as hard as this guy?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/guBnSe-ponQ&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/guBnSe-ponQ&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;</a>

Great episode   ;D

My father is one of the toughest guys I've ever met. He doesn't look that imposing from a distance since he's only 170cm tall(5'8 feet?) but he has immense upper body strenght. He was a great gymnast before joining the military. The Spetsnaz GRU soldiers are as hard as nails.