Author Topic: General Political discussion with kesey-style vibes & tantric breathing stuff...  (Read 358434 times)

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2560 on: February 24, 2019, 12:54:09 pm »
If you encountered a woman in a niqab on the street or in their twitter pic, and had a go at her for the actions of ISIS or Saudi's rulers, you'd be hatefully generalising all muslims - suggesting that they have a responsibility to answer for the actions of all those who may have some shared religious or cultural experiences.

You're allowed to talk about Israel. You shouldn't be saying things like that c*nt Derek Hatton where "Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel" cos it's antisemitic

When talking about Israel I talk about Israelis not Jews.

Not all Israelis are Jews and not all Jews are Israeli. This an important distinction that seems to be ignored.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2561 on: February 24, 2019, 12:57:32 pm »
When talking about Israel I talk about Israelis not Jews.

Not all Israelis are Jews and not all Jews are Israeli. This an important distinction that seems to be ignored.

Yep, ignored by antisemites

Offline Zeb

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2562 on: February 24, 2019, 12:59:21 pm »
Thanks for that Zeb, but I suppose what I really wanted was names.

By the way thanks for all your time effort and thought on these threads, I am sure I am not the only one who appreciates it.

Aaron Bastani and co. (Novara media), Steve Walker (Skwawkbox), the 'Rachel Swindon' account, and The Canary are the ones I'd point to as following a clear party line. To be clear for readers other than yourself Doc, I'm not saying the leader's office is responsible for every story or tweet they send, but it's fair to say that they would not exist as they do without stories provided for them by those in positions of responsibility in the party.

Around them there's a whole collection of odd people, some expelled members, who've been normalised for the Corbynite left by the likes of Chris Williamson. 

eg Momentum have recently called out one popular twitter account (Labour Left Voice) run by a former member Sally Eason and which has been doing pleasant things such as using faked messages to drum up yet more outrage and abuse against Rachel Riley.



« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 01:06:45 pm by Zeb »
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Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2563 on: February 24, 2019, 01:00:12 pm »
Yep, ignored by antisemites

And there you have it, "antisemites" used, discussion end. And not all Semites are Jews, as you know.
And in short, I was afraid

Offline classycarra

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2564 on: February 24, 2019, 01:00:35 pm »
Who have I called a liar? I don’t remember that but if I have, I have misspoken and I apologise.

It's right in the few sentences of yours that I quoted. Except you said most claims were bogus and part of a political football. No idea if you said "liar" but I was paraphrasing - your words implied much worse

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2565 on: February 24, 2019, 01:01:01 pm »
Aaron Bastani has made antisemitic comments on twitter.

He’s been sent to twitter gaol twice for it. (Both after I reported him I’m happy to say)
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2566 on: February 24, 2019, 01:01:56 pm »
Brilliant and totally spot on.

"You're not looking at the whole pie, Andrew!" Has anyone seen David Brent and the Independent Group in a room at the same time?

video

https://twitter.com/EL4JC/status/1099643487555907584
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2567 on: February 24, 2019, 01:02:26 pm »
And there you have it, "antisemites" used, discussion end. And not all Semites are Jews, as you know.

Did the discussion end? What are you on about?

I was in a two way discussion about how people end up saying antisemitic things without necessarily realising it and Sudden came onto a key point I agreed with.

Why do you get upset when I label people who are intolerant to jewish people antisemites? Weird uses of your emotional energy - don't you have something better to get worked up by?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 01:04:41 pm by Classycara »

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2568 on: February 24, 2019, 01:02:59 pm »
Brilliant and totally spot on.

"You're not looking at the whole pie, Andrew!" Has anyone seen David Brent and the Independent Group in a room at the same time?

video

https://twitter.com/EL4JC/status/1099643487555907584
Yep.  Not funny
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2569 on: February 24, 2019, 01:08:44 pm »
Sometimes it's best to go direct to the "nutter" himself

https://twitter.com/TheGolem_/status/1090995532603027456

and

And that i have no problem with at all. There is some certainty about it.

But FB and Twitter are still unregulated and a total cesspit of lies and misinformation within society.

But you also get Tepid saying he believes 95% of these nutters are his supporters,  my point is he maybe be right but there is no certainty about it, and it could also be viewed he wants this to be the case.

Which i why i only personally rely on specific comments from an actual person themselves such as Corbyn rather than second or third hand comments from people claiming to be speaking for him and supporting him.

This is not just Corbyn though the Social Network is a total minefield of lies, abuse and verbal violence.
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2570 on: February 24, 2019, 01:16:41 pm »
Did the discussion end? What are you on about?

I was in a two way discussion about how people end up saying antisemitic things without necessarily realising it and Sudden came onto a key point I agreed with.

Why do you get upset when I label people who are intolerant to jewish people antisemites? Weird uses of your emotional energy - don't you have something better to get worked up by?

Don't be silly, nobody is upset or worked up.There is no need to converse in inflammatory language all the time.
And in short, I was afraid

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2571 on: February 24, 2019, 01:17:28 pm »
95% is probably a conservative number, it’s probably higher.  But I look at their timelines. There are years of this stuff, to suggest there are sock puppets needs some evidence.

Why would they need too? 

Bastani, the canary, Novartis media, swakbox, young labour, they’re all posting antisemitic tropes.  Why would the right bother?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline classycarra

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2572 on: February 24, 2019, 01:20:23 pm »
Don't be silly, nobody is upset or worked up.There is no need to converse in inflammatory language all the time.

You just suggested I was shutting down discussion ;D

You've spent a lot of energy today and last night (less coherently) getting worked up about people describing intolerance as anti semitism. That isn't an inflammatory summation. I'm still waiting to hear your counterpoint instead of alluding to something but never spitting it out.

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2573 on: February 24, 2019, 01:28:17 pm »
Brilliant and totally spot on.

"You're not looking at the whole pie, Andrew!" Has anyone seen David Brent and the Independent Group in a room at the same time?

video

https://twitter.com/EL4JC/status/1099643487555907584
So whats the point. our government shouldn't run any Nationalized company as a business, just put anyone in charge and sign a blank cheque. that worked well in Venezuela didn't it.
It's scary. you won't get many arguments over nationalizing our services but not to run them as a business is crazy. it's not about the services making massive profits it's about not throwing money down the drain due to incompetency.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2574 on: February 24, 2019, 01:30:15 pm »
95% is probably a conservative number, it’s probably higher.  But I look at their timelines. There are years of this stuff, to suggest there are sock puppets needs some evidence.

Why would they need too? 

Bastani, the canary, Novartis media, swakbox, young labour, they’re all posting antisemitic tropes.  Why would the right bother?

Are you looking at time lines that give you the result you are looking for though?

As for the people and media (if that is the right word)  you quoted well they need to be tackled on their comments. I don't even look at their stuff.

As for why would people claim to be something they are not on the internet you are not that Naive surely.

I am not defending any of these vile people and comments or having a go at you Tepid,  it is just i have found over the years of using the net and social network not to trust a lot of what i read unless it can be verified as true.

Maybe that's just my problem with the net
« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 01:34:07 pm by Mutton Geoff »
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline kennedy81

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2575 on: February 24, 2019, 01:35:54 pm »
it's pretty straightforward. On the far left there are plenty who go for the full range of anti-semitic conspiracies - the Jews control a global conspiracy of bankers and media interests. all taken straight form yteh Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Then there are the anti-Zionists who protest that they are just criticising Israel (the only Jewish state in the World) rather than Jews in general. Then there are the Corbyn cultists who believe that accusations of anti-semitism are just a plot against Jeremy (the definition of institutional racism) by Jews/Blairites/Women...

Bottom line - Corbyn's Labour runs the full range from open Holocaust denial to institutional racism on Twitter and Facebook by the JC4PM crowd.
On the distinction between anti-Zionism and antisemitism:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/24/antisemites-use-language-of-anti-zionism-the-two-are-distinct

The key point:

"To oppose Zionism but not other forms of ethnic nationalism would indeed be antisemitic. But to oppose Zionism because one opposes ethnic nationalism is a legitimate view."

I think this is where many people get it wrong.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2576 on: February 24, 2019, 01:39:11 pm »
Are you looking at time lines that give you the result you are looking for though?

As for the people and media (if that is the right word)  you quoted well they need to be tackled on their comments. I don't even look at their stuff.

As for why would people claim to be something they are not on the internet you are not that Naive surely.

I am not defending any of these vile people and comments or having a go at you Tepid,  it is just i have found over the years of using the net and social network not to trust a lot of what i read unless it can be verified as true.

Maybe that's just my problem with the net
I do have a look at most of them to be honest.  It’s jnteresting.  And to be honest I haven’t seen one account that I thought suspicious.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2577 on: February 24, 2019, 01:40:18 pm »
On the distinction between anti-Zionism and antisemitism:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/24/antisemites-use-language-of-anti-zionism-the-two-are-distinct

The key point:

"To oppose Zionism but not other forms of ethnic nationalism would indeed be antisemitic. But to oppose Zionism because one opposes ethnic nationalism is a legitimate view."

I think this is where many people get it wrong.
And so many only object to Jewish Nationalism which is the problem.


 It’s connected to this idea that the west is inherently wicked and that Israel are an out reach of this.

Which I’ve always found to be utterly bizarre.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2578 on: February 24, 2019, 01:49:29 pm »
So whats the point. our government shouldn't run any Nationalized company as a business, just put anyone in charge and sign a blank cheque. that worked well in Venezuela didn't it.
It's scary. you won't get many arguments over nationalizing our services but not to run them as a business is crazy. it's not about the services making massive profits it's about not throwing money down the drain due to incompetency.
like how some think the worst labour government is better than any other option you also have those who think the worst government run industry is better than any privately run equivalent, quite scary that logic really

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2579 on: February 24, 2019, 01:56:14 pm »
When talking about Israel I talk about Israelis not Jews.

Not all Israelis are Jews and not all Jews are Israeli. This an important distinction that seems to be ignored.

And not all Israelis unequivocally support the actions of the Israeli government.

Offline kennedy81

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2580 on: February 24, 2019, 01:57:55 pm »
And so many only object to Jewish Nationalism which is the problem.


It’s connected to this idea that the west is inherently wicked and that Israel are an out reach of this.

Which I’ve always found to be utterly bizarre.
Many do, but many don't. I don't know how you go about quantifying those number without doing some pretty extensive research.

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2581 on: February 24, 2019, 01:58:07 pm »
And not all Israelis unequivocally support the actions of the Israeli government.
and nor are they answerable for them (ditto Jewish people)

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2582 on: February 24, 2019, 02:03:27 pm »
The problem is that this works both ways, people can make a genuine criticism of the Israeli Government and then be accused of being Anti-Semetic as a form of immediately shutting down any discussion at all. So whether deliberately or not the difference between being Anti-Semetic and Anti-Zionist has been linked together far too closely and muddied the waters.

By the same token though people have used Anti-Semetic comments to attack supporters of the Israel Government and that has also created this problem and stops any discussion because of their vile interventions.

Then you get the vilest type who just attack anyone in the Jewish Community these are beyond the paleas far as i am concerned.

I would add one word of caution though i know it is great to link all these nutters to Corbyn partially because of some hashtag in twitter or Facebook but frankly the likes of JRM could do that, i am not saying a lot of them are not his supporters but it is dangerous to suggest they are all genuine .

This is a problem with the Social Media in general and not just dealing with AS.
Really Geoff some of my family are from "beyond the Pale" they're not savages, uncivilised or racist
 SHAME ON YOU... Corbyn needs to stamp this kind of behaviour out and eradicate it from The Labour Party...grrrrrr







Hi Geoff  :wave
   


Offline oldfordie

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2583 on: February 24, 2019, 02:10:20 pm »
like how some think the worst labour government is better than any other option you also have those who think the worst government run industry is better than any privately run equivalent, quite scary that logic really
Yeah the worst Labour government meaning the most incompetent idealogical flawed people in charge of running the country. I really do find that scary, it's not about making massive profits and the NHS is not a service were the country should charge so we can leave the NHS out the argument but it still doesn't mean it's not run like a business, people in charge who can run it efficiently to cut down costs. the same applies to any service we may nationalize. how much does it cost to run, can we cut costs to cut down on charges.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2584 on: February 24, 2019, 02:12:17 pm »

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2585 on: February 24, 2019, 02:23:17 pm »
Brilliant and totally spot on.

"You're not looking at the whole pie, Andrew!" Has anyone seen David Brent and the Independent Group in a room at the same time?

video

https://twitter.com/EL4JC/status/1099643487555907584

Of all the stuff you've posted in this thread, this is the silliest. It's an uncharitable pisstake that seeks to misrepresent the answers given in the full version of the interview. I thought it was refreshing to see two honest politicians not claiming to have all the answers and not being hectored into pretending that they do. I can see how that's at odds with the black and white demagoguery you're obsessed with, though.

It's a new group that has been around for a week and probably not in the works for much time before that, and has formed from a group of MPs who want to work across party lines which means differing political positions. Give them a chance to do something before you crap all over it on behalf of the JC4PM2019 fan club.

Offline Team Sleep

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2586 on: February 24, 2019, 02:36:15 pm »
Jess Phillips gets it.

Guardian

She does.

Quote
I'm feeling like I might stage some revolution this week take over parliament, engage my Nan's voice and tell everyone to pack in their nonsense. Rescind article 50 and get on with mending the very broken system. Grow a backbone Theresa May serve your goddamn country.

https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1099667093778296833

Edited to add:

Quote
I don't hate TM I don't pity her, I think she is not bright,brave or kind. How did our country have such low standards that she runs our country. I would give up everything I have to have her power for 1 day & she uses it like someone quibbling over which fence to buy in B&Q

https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1099670331428614145
« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 02:41:04 pm by Team Sleep »

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2587 on: February 24, 2019, 03:09:24 pm »
Of all the stuff you've posted in this thread, this is the silliest. It's an uncharitable pisstake that seeks to misrepresent the answers given in the full version of the interview. I thought it was refreshing to see two honest politicians not claiming to have all the answers and not being hectored into pretending that they do. I can see how that's at odds with the black and white demagoguery you're obsessed with, though.

It's a new group that has been around for a week and probably not in the works for much time before that, and has formed from a group of MPs who want to work across party lines which means differing political positions. Give them a chance to do something before you crap all over it on behalf of the JC4PM2019 fan club.
Excellent point we can't loose sight of.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Zeb

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2588 on: February 24, 2019, 04:35:24 pm »
On the general theme, listening to Heidi Allen, Luciana Berger, and Tom Watson chimed with something I was reading just before it.

Quote
As the three - female - Tory defectors announced their departure on Wednesday to become independents, Heidi Allen’s language suggested that may not be a coincidence.

“I believed I was part of a party that worked collaboratively,” said the South Cambridgeshire MP of a grouping riven by Brexit red lines since she joined. “And had the empathy to feel.”

The lexicon was striking: empathy, understanding, cooperation.

Britain’s political language is not currently one defined by empathy, understanding or cooperation. It is one of traitors and mutineers, of verbal missiles lobbed across ideological trenches. Of squaring up.

For many women on both sides of the ditches - including those who walked away to a truce this week - that now feels increasingly oppressive, especially for those who dare to enter the cross-fire. And yet often they do anyway.

MEN's Jennifer Williams has more on the link with comments from several female MPs about what they're seeing in public life.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Libertine

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2589 on: February 24, 2019, 04:53:42 pm »
On the general theme, listening to Heidi Allen, Luciana Berger, and Tom Watson chimed with something I was reading just before it.

MEN's Jennifer Williams has more on the link with comments from several female MPs about what they're seeing in public life.

On a similar theme....





https://twitter.com/Daniel_Sugarman/status/1099694489227149312

Offline Team Sleep

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2590 on: February 24, 2019, 04:59:30 pm »
On a similar theme....

https://twitter.com/Daniel_Sugarman/status/1099694489227149312

On the plus side, he's getting a well-deserved kicking in the replies.

https://twitter.com/JohnRobb1231/status/1099667861574946820

Smart enough to take an interest in the causes the left should care about, not smart enough to realise how his behaviour represents those causes.

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A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline Libertine

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2592 on: February 24, 2019, 05:03:55 pm »
On the plus side, he's getting a well-deserved kicking in the replies.

 ;D Wonderful level of vitriol.....

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2593 on: February 24, 2019, 05:42:39 pm »

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2594 on: February 24, 2019, 05:50:07 pm »
The coward has deleted his Twitter
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2595 on: February 24, 2019, 05:53:53 pm »
The coward has deleted his Twitter
guess he’s not as radical as his bio

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2596 on: February 24, 2019, 05:54:03 pm »
The coward has deleted his Twitter

He flinched.

No doubt with a sneer.

Poor bloke thought his tweet was going to be popular and gain him thousands of admirers. Now he's probably beating up his wife and kids.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2597 on: February 24, 2019, 05:58:39 pm »
He flinched.

No doubt with a sneer.

Poor bloke thought his tweet was going to be popular and gain him thousands of admirers. Now he's probably beating up his wife and kids.
probably just deactivated it for a few days and will back later in the week

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2598 on: February 24, 2019, 06:38:02 pm »
Seems a bit like TalkSport this twitter malarky.
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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2599 on: February 24, 2019, 06:46:04 pm »
Seems a bit like TalkSport this twitter malarky.

Seems very childish to me.  I can see it's practical uses in my work, but for the average joe, it's a nonsense.