Topic: Racism in Football

[CraigDS]

I think one of the main things with associating an ID to the account is that it then prevents, or helps prevent, people opening account after account and continuing with the abuse.

Would also remove the chances of cat fishing (a fav for paedos) and plenty of other dodgy activity that goes on on social media, not just abuse.

[RaveDave]

On the back of my post before, Swansea City have just announced that they will not be using social media for the next week.

Rangers players and management now doing the same.
https://www.rangers.co.uk/article/rangers-players-and-management-boycott-social-media/40OVL6DxYTOl0pbusoJ5e2

[Statto Red]

Boycotting social media for a week is pointless when you'll have the same morons on it posting the same vitriol when the boycott is over, social media needs to be binned of completely, it's not like clubs have there own websites either, were they could create a chat board if they wanted to & bin off anyone making such posts & report them to the authorities..

[wenlock]

So what do you suggest then to deal with it?

The power should already be there, it's the desire to use it that seems to be the problem. As someone posted before my post, they can mac ban, ip ban ect. Isp's give you a warning or two before kicking you for piracy and often without proper proof as anyone tagging things as copywrite infringement gets it instantly taken down it seems.

Granted that there are always ways to get around bans but those people usually seem to be more hardcore and determined and those should be dealt with by the police just like they are now for hate speech.

Freedom of speech is important and shouldn't even be considered especially when nothing much else has been tried yet.

Governments seem to have the power to move mountains when they really try but are they trying? They could legislate that social media has to have rules like they did with cookies. Companies already often make you sign a user agreement that stipulates what you can't do or say or post but obviously are not enforcing it and no one is trying to make them.

Well that's the way it seems to me. Didn't the whole Covid news story break with a whistleblower in China, a doctor that ended up catching it and died?

[rob1966]

It would be interesting to see how many of those tweeting the abuse are actually in this country.

If not there is nothing the authorities here can do about it.

And it then goes back to the social media companies - who have algorithms that detect at what time you have your daily shit, you'd think they would be able to simply identify any racist expressions or emojis.

They can, that is the annoying thing. I made a comment on FB last year about scousers and muzzys and FB deleted the post and warned me - they obviously interpreted muzzy as something to do with Muslims.

Its not hard to find words or phrases that are offensive, I've written code at work for finding key words, postcode sectors, issue country info in passport numbers, stuff like that, so its not hard to do. I'm sure the social media companies could use some of their billions to clamp down on this.

[jillcwhomever]

Rangers players and management now doing the same.
https://www.rangers.co.uk/article/rangers-players-and-management-boycott-social-media/40OVL6DxYTOl0pbusoJ5e2

Good, will be interesting to see if more follow suit.

[FlashGordon]

Boycotting social media for a week is pointless when you'll have the same morons on it posting the same vitriol when the boycott is over, social media needs to be binned of completely, it's not like clubs have there own websites either, were they could create a chat board if they wanted to & bin off anyone making such posts & report them to the authorities..

I think the boycott is more to force the sites themselves in to taking action.

[Statto Red]

I think the boycott is more to force the sites themselves in to taking action.

Wait & see if that happens.

[FlashGordon]

Wait & see if that happens.

Oh I'm not saying it'll be successful, just that in my opinion, that is what their aims are.

[Statto Red]

Oh I'm not saying it'll be successful, just that in my opinion, that is what their aims are.

I get that, but i can't see anything changing whilst social media companies are raking in the money, change will come if advertisers start pulling funding from social media companies, the threat of that would most likely make these companies act on the vile stuff being posted

[rob1966]

I get that, but i can't see anything changing whilst social media companies are raking in the money, change will come if advertisers start pulling funding from social media companies, the threat of that would most likely make these companies act on the vile stuff being posted

Hopefully the clubs and players boycotting then generates the negative media attention that scares the advertisers.

[FlashGordon]

Hopefully the clubs and players boycotting then generates the negative media attention that scares the advertisers.

Yes Rob, they will be hoping for a snowball effect.

[CraigDS]

Hopefully the clubs and players boycotting then generates the negative media attention that scares the advertisers.

They’ve had it hundreds of times before. They really don’t care as their business model really isn’t hit by it.

[CHOPPER]

They’ve had it hundreds of times before. They really don’t care as their business model really isn’t hit by it.

Instagram is worth over $100 billion dollars, 'soccer' is a sport, is racism on there footballs problem? or societies problem? I say the latter.

Yes, there may be footballers on there, but they're on a social media interface, its open to non footballing types as well as those that have a vested interest, to link it as racism in football is a bit off for me. To me it seems more racism at footballers driven by the ingrained racism in society.

Fix racism in society, you fix racism in football.

[So… Howard Philips]

Instagram is worth over $100 billion dollars, 'soccer' is a sport, is racism on there footballs problem? or societies problem? I say the latter.

Yes, there may be footballers on there, but they're on a social media interface, its open to non footballing types as well as those that have a vested interest, to link it as racism in football is a bit off for me. To me it seems more racism at footballers driven by the ingrained racism in society.

Fix racism in society, you fix racism in football.

I think you're right about it being a societal problem, rather than a football problem.

Out of interest though are other black sports persons singled out for racist abuse?

[CraigDS]

Instagram is worth over $100 billion dollars, 'soccer' is a sport, is racism on there footballs problem? or societies problem? I say the latter.

Yes, there may be footballers on there, but they're on a social media interface, its open to non footballing types as well as those that have a vested interest, to link it as racism in football is a bit off for me. To me it seems more racism at footballers driven by the ingrained racism in society.

Fix racism in society, you fix racism in football.

I agree, and to be honest my comment was more they’ve had the bad press with regards to racism and abuse across a wide range of accounts. From sporting icons, to celebs, to actors, to musicians, to influencers and to the average joe on the street.

I 100% agree it’s a societal problem, and it does need dealing with at that level and simply removing their platform where they can air their abuse doesn’t solve it, but it does at least allow those people who may be targeted to go about their life without having to face it.

[diggerling!]

Instagram is worth over $100 billion dollars, 'soccer' is a sport, is racism on there footballs problem? or societies problem? I say the latter.

Yes, there may be footballers on there, but they're on a social media interface, its open to non footballing types as well as those that have a vested interest, to link it as racism in football is a bit off for me. To me it seems more racism at footballers driven by the ingrained racism in society.

Fix racism in society, you fix racism in football.

Football is part of society though, it is not separate from it. The terraces have long been seen as a vital battle ground for the far right. They have used the game to promote their ideology and groom young, poorly educated working class boys and men who are unable to see who the real enemy is.

It is only right that football responds to this, whether that be through taking the knee as a show of solidarity, trying to influence big tech to step up and do something, or direct action by supporter groups like FLAF.

[jackh]

Boycotting social media for a week is pointless when you'll have the same morons on it posting the same vitriol when the boycott is over, social media needs to be binned of completely, it's not like clubs have there own websites either, were they could create a chat board if they wanted to & bin off anyone making such posts & report them to the authorities..

They’ve had it hundreds of times before. They really don’t care as their business model really isn’t hit by it.

I'd like to think the power isn't in the boycott itself, but in the conversations it's starts - surely that's the bigger picture?  Raised awareness of the wide-reach & impact of issues (and this applies to a range of topics recently), aiming for an ever-evolving cultural & societal shift.

[killer-heels]

Instagram is worth over $100 billion dollars, 'soccer' is a sport, is racism on there footballs problem? or societies problem? I say the latter.

Yes, there may be footballers on there, but they're on a social media interface, its open to non footballing types as well as those that have a vested interest, to link it as racism in football is a bit off for me. To me it seems more racism at footballers driven by the ingrained racism in society.

Fix racism in society, you fix racism in football.

Nobody will ever fix racism in society. Its impossible.

[Lee1-6Liv]

Nobody will ever fix racism in society. Its impossible.

It would help if the Prime Minister of the UK and former President of the USA weren't massive racists.

[rob1966]

Nobody will ever fix racism in society. Its impossible.

You are right that we will never fix it, but we can change it. Those of us who are parents need to bring our kids up to not see people with different coloured skin as anything other than people, to not accept racism, to call it out. The world of football has changed since I was a kid, black players got booed, monkey chants, the lot at Anfield when I was first going in the Kop, a song declared "I would rather be a P*ki than a Manc", that would never happen now. It was a huge deal when Viv Anderson was picked for England, now no-one bats an eyelid at the colour of a players skin when picked or bought by a team. Racist terms were casually thrown about, again, people change. Attitudes changed and that needs to be carried on with.

The kids today are who twitter/instagram/whatever rely on - campaigns by people they look up to, to make the platforms change, will have an effect if they start to boycott them.

[killer-heels]

You are right that we will never fix it, but we can change it. Those of us who are parents need to bring our kids up to not see people with different coloured skin as anything other than people, to not accept racism, to call it out. The world of football has changed since I was a kid, black players got booed, monkey chants, the lot at Anfield when I was first going in the Kop, a song declared "I would rather be a P*ki than a Manc", that would never happen now. It was a huge deal when Viv Anderson was picked for England, now no-one bats an eyelid at the colour of a players skin when picked or bought by a team. Racist terms were casually thrown about, again, people change. Attitudes changed and that needs to be carried on with.

The kids today are who twitter/instagram/whatever rely on - campaigns by people they look up to, to make the platforms change, will have an effect if they start to boycott them.

Thats all true, but there will still be a lot of racists and a voice for them in social media. Without blocking and removal of that voice or proper consequences to their actions, this problem will continue.

[CraigDS]

Consequences for their actions is, for a large part, why racism in society is a lot less than it once was.

It’s why you don’t get it within stadiums anywhere near as much - as you’d be identified and banned / face criminal charges.

I don’t see any reason why social media shouldn’t be the same.

[rob1966]

Thats all true, but there will still be a lot of racists and a voice for them in social media. Without blocking and removal of that voice or proper consequences to their actions, this problem will continue.

That's why the boycotts and media attention are needed, to force these platforms to block these scum and pass whatever details they can onto relevant authorities, their words need to have consequences.

[killer-heels]

That's why the boycotts and media attention are needed, to force these platforms to block these scum and pass whatever details they can onto relevant authorities, their words need to have consequences.

They wont. They never have and have zero intention to. It would take permanent boycotts for that to happen and even then it would creep back in.

There should be consequences for racist posts. Those people should be identified through proper verified details and given to the authorities. Trying to make the companies do it is ultimately fruitless.

Its civil liberties vs racism.

[diggerling!]

I don’t see any reason why social media shouldn’t be the same.

It comes down to whether the social media companies are seen as platforms, like your broadband provider or phone line, or publishers, like a newspaper, with some editorial control.

At the moment they are legally viewed as platforms so are not responsible for the content spewed thereon. If they were publishers they would be. The obvious difficulties would be the sheer volume of content they’d have to check, which would probably render them unviable, and having the public debate framed at the whim of a few Silicon Valley billionaires.

My view is that the potential drawbacks could be ameliorated by algorithms, registration rules and a time allowance for removing reported misconduct. The billionaire playground argument would be irrelevant if legally binding rules about conduct were introduced by governments who are (ho ho) accountable to the electorate.

[liverbloke]

we're all going round and around here saying the same things and arguing over the same solutions

there's nothing wrong with that of course but it does go to show that how the solution is maybe to go forward with full identification when using these platforms - BUT i understand that some people may have a problem with this as countries at war or repressing their own people would LOVE to have the full identities of those posting comments against their rule and that's a massive pitfall

we cannot beat racism in society until we fully rid the remnants of the caste system in parts of india, both the tribal and religious conflict in parts of africa, what's going on in northern ireland at the moment, extremism, fascism, far-right politics, parts of eastern european culture, china, japan, north korea etc it's not just about the black and ethnic minorities in this country

we can educate a child but would every country do that? especially as their belief system, ruling political party, dictatorship would see that as western influence undermining their way of life - social media platforms are worldwide

so the way to go is...

fining those billionaire companies? only if the law was changed to do so and they would simply amend their terms and conditions in response - and any fine would be a drop in the ocean

phew - so should we therefore should we just expect people who choose to use those platforms do so at their own risk until a new platform arrives?

is that a defeatist attitude or a realistic one?

[diggerling!]

...i understand that some people may have a problem with this as countries at war or repressing their own people would LOVE to have the full identities of those posting comments against their rule and that's a massive pitfall

Would oppressive regimes necessarily have full access to the data? Surely it could be held by the social media company and then released to any authority with just cause. If oppressive regimes ban the use, so be it - they can do that now anyway.

we cannot beat racism in society until we fully rid the remnants of the caste system in parts of india, both the tribal and religious conflict in parts of africa, what's going on in northern ireland at the moment, extremism, fascism, far-right politics, parts of eastern european culture, china, japan, north korea etc it's not just about the black and ethnic minorities in this country

That's a bit like saying people are going to die anyway so what's the point in medicine? Incremental improvements are worth fighting for, even if on a global scale the issue still seems insurmountable. Drip, drip, drip.

fining those billionaire companies? only if the law was changed to do so and they would simply amend their terms and conditions in response - and any fine would be a drop in the ocean

If there are laws in place and those laws are broken, fines are only one possible sanction, another could be limiting advertising revenue. Ultimately the responsibility for content should lie with the executives at those companies. That would concentrate a few minds.

[liverbloke]

...
That's a bit like saying people are going to die anyway so what's the point in medicine? Incremental improvements are worth fighting for, even if on a global scale the issue still seems insurmountable. Drip, drip, drip.
...

that's an unfair analogy of my point as i was stating that for change to take place we need to address all issues otherwise they negate one another

but the rest of you points are valid reasonings - we are on the same side here 

[CraigDS]

It comes down to whether the social media companies are seen as platforms, like your broadband provider or phone line, or publishers, like a newspaper, with some editorial control.

At the moment they are legally viewed as platforms so are not responsible for the content spewed thereon. If they were publishers they would be. The obvious difficulties would be the sheer volume of content they’d have to check, which would probably render them unviable, and having the public debate framed at the whim of a few Silicon Valley billionaires.

My view is that the potential drawbacks could be ameliorated by algorithms, registration rules and a time allowance for removing reported misconduct. The billionaire playground argument would be irrelevant if legally binding rules about conduct were introduced by governments who are (ho ho) accountable to the electorate.

The thing is I think ultimately it should be the public and not the social media companies who are held responsible. However to do this social media companies need to be made responsible for checking who they allow to use their platform, and to make them identifiable so they can be held responsible for what they say. I wouldn't hold Liverpool responsible for one fan shouting racist abuse, however I would expect them to help identify that person via things like CCTV, knowing who sits in what seat, etc - social media companies should have the same responsibility.

Sure they need to work on their algorithms to seek out the offending content, but mostly this could easily be done by the wider public reporting them. If people knew what they said could be linked to their actual ID and they could be held responsible it would quite quickly prevent a lot of them from mouthing off.

[diggerling!]

that's an unfair analogy of my point as i was stating that for change to take place we need to address all issues otherwise they negate one another

but the rest of you points are valid reasonings - we are on the same side here 

Fair point mate, and I know you're sound. 

[diggerling!]

The thing is I think ultimately it should be the public and not the social media companies who are held responsible. However to do this social media companies need to be made responsible for checking who they allow to use their platform, and to make them identifiable so they can be held responsible for what they say. I wouldn't hold Liverpool responsible for one fan shouting racist abuse, however I would expect them to help identify that person via things like CCTV, knowing who sits in what seat, etc - social media companies should have the same responsibility.

Sure they need to work on their algorithms to seek out the offending content, but mostly this could easily be done by the wider public reporting them. If people knew what they said could be linked to their actual ID and they could be held responsible it would quite quickly prevent a lot of them from mouthing off.

It's a complex area for sure. One of the problems seems to be that people can have multiple identities and can create new ones very easily. That wouldn't be the case if, for example, you needed to use a mailing address or credit card as confirmation that you are legit. Big tech wouldn't want that though as they rely on sockpuppets to bump up their user numbers in order to attract advertisers. However you look at it, whether they are seen as platforms or publishers, they need to do more.

[liverbloke]

Fair point mate, and I know you're sound. 

cheers fella

[CraigDS]

It's a complex area for sure. One of the problems seems to be that people can have multiple identities and can create new ones very easily. That wouldn't be the case if, for example, you needed to use a mailing address or credit card as confirmation that you are legit. Big tech wouldn't want that though as they rely on sockpuppets to bump up their user numbers in order to attract advertisers. However you look at it, whether they are seen as platforms or publishers, they need to do more.

Oh I agree, which is why so many simply bury their heads in the sand, ride out the storm when something happens, and carry on as normal after putting out some lip service type statement.

Ultimately they'll need to be forced to adopt some of the rules which will help curb people thinking because they can't see / be seen that they can abuse anyone and everyone. I really don't see this being solved any other way other than you proving you are who you say you are when you sign up.

It would remove so many of the toxic issues with social media. From the abuse (in many forms), to the cat fishing, to the stalking, to the bots, to paedos pretending to be other kids, etc. Now of course some will still find ways to bypass it, but huge numbers won't.

Now maybe there needs to be a 3rd party who holds the private information and confirms the ID's so the social media companies don't "own" this, but whatever way it happens it really needs to.

[Barneylfc∗]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56689861

La Liga says it has found no evidence that Cadiz defender Juan Cala racially abused Valencia's Mouctar Diakhaby during Sunday's match.

Defender Diakhaby reacted furiously after a first-half clash with Cala and spoke with the referee.

Valencia walked off the pitch in protest after the alleged racist comment was made.

They later returning to complete the match - without the substituted Diakhaby - which they lost 2-1.

In a statement, La Liga said: "After an analysis of all the elements, it was concluded that in none of the available media was found any proof that the player Juan Torres Ruiz [Juan Cala] insulted Mouctar Diakhaby using the alleged terms.

"All available audiovisual and digital files were analysed, including the images broadcast and spread on different social networks.

"To be able to complete the case, a specialised company was contracted to do lip-reading analysis of the conversations and study the behaviour of the players Juan Torres Ruiz and Mouctar Diakhaby."

The league also reiterated its "condemnation of racism in all its forms".

On Tuesday, Diakhaby posted a video on social media saying he was "very hurt" by what Cala said to him and wanted La Liga to punish the Cadiz man.

Cala held a virtual news conference later in the day, during which he denied racially abusing Diakhaby and said he had been caught in a "media circus".

Valencia said the outcome of La Liga's investigation had "by no means changed our opinion" on what happened.

"The fact that no proof has been found does not mean that the matter did not occur," the club said.

"The club have by no means changed our opinion on what occurred in the game, and maintain our full support for Diakhaby.

"Having reached this point, it is necessary to continue working with La Liga, the institutions and the rest of the clubs to ensure that these types of racist incidents are never repeated."

An investigation by the Spanish Football Federation (RFEF) is still ongoing.

[liverbloke]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56689861

La Liga says it has found no evidence that Cadiz defender Juan Cala racially abused Valencia's Mouctar Diakhaby during Sunday's match.

Defender Diakhaby reacted furiously after a first-half clash with Cala and spoke with the referee.

Valencia walked off the pitch in protest after the alleged racist comment was made.

They later returning to complete the match - without the substituted Diakhaby - which they lost 2-1.

In a statement, La Liga said: "After an analysis of all the elements, it was concluded that in none of the available media was found any proof that the player Juan Torres Ruiz [Juan Cala] insulted Mouctar Diakhaby using the alleged terms.

"All available audiovisual and digital files were analysed, including the images broadcast and spread on different social networks.

"To be able to complete the case, a specialised company was contracted to do lip-reading analysis of the conversations and study the behaviour of the players Juan Torres Ruiz and Mouctar Diakhaby."

The league also reiterated its "condemnation of racism in all its forms".

On Tuesday, Diakhaby posted a video on social media saying he was "very hurt" by what Cala said to him and wanted La Liga to punish the Cadiz man.

Cala held a virtual news conference later in the day, during which he denied racially abusing Diakhaby and said he had been caught in a "media circus".

Valencia said the outcome of La Liga's investigation had "by no means changed our opinion" on what happened.

"The fact that no proof has been found does not mean that the matter did not occur," the club said.

"The club have by no means changed our opinion on what occurred in the game, and maintain our full support for Diakhaby.

"Having reached this point, it is necessary to continue working with La Liga, the institutions and the rest of the clubs to ensure that these types of racist incidents are never repeated."

An investigation by the Spanish Football Federation (RFEF) is still ongoing.

the simple way to find out who said what is to make the players swear on the bible/holy book of their faith

9 out of 10 players cross themselves and say a few words of faith either before they enter the pitch or when they leave it so make them swear on that

insults can be misheard but they're still insults

only Cala truly knows what he said

[Wullie160975]

It's said on the pitch in the way it is, because it won't be heard anywhere so never any proof.

Mic up the players (stick it in their GPS tracker) to an independent body and there will be no scope for anymore on the pitch.

[CraigDS]

I reckon someone with a bit of money and know how could set up a rival social platform which requires ID (or uses a service which confirms someone's ID, like banks use) and could attract some big names to it pretty quickly.

[Caligula?]

Heung-min Son was subjected to loads of abuse last night because of his role in United's disallowed goal. Sorry for posting some of these, but it's to get an idea of what's really going on. Racists have always been racists but the level of bigotry, hatred, xenophobia and just flat-out racism in recent times must be at an all-time high.

[Clint Eastwood]

Why have the names been blurred out?

Honestly, the moment that happened in the game I knew that I'd see a headline later on, saying he'd been subject to racist abuse. It seems to happen after every game. I'm convinced that, if anything, people hiding behind fake accounts are getting increasingly confident in dishing out abuse like this.