Topic: FAN UPDATE - Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas

[JRC_]

this will reduce touting for anyone living in the "Americas" :

http://www.fenwaysportsmanagement.com/LFCtrip/

maybe the club could do it for other far away kopites ?

Will it? Have you seen the price!?

[Grobbelrevell]

If someone dies I think you should be able to transfer a ticket to a friend or a member of your family who is on the waiting list. Is there anyone who'd have a genuine issue with that?

Late to this, but, on what grounds?

And with the waiting list now closed to new applicants, what if the friend/family member in question isn't on it?

I personally think that in that scenario the ticket should be returned to the club and passed on to the next person on the waiting list. Keep it consistent, and fair to everyone.

[Tommypig]

Late to this, but, on what grounds?

And with the waiting list now closed to new applicants, what if the friend/family member in question isn't on it?

I personally think that in that scenario the ticket should be returned to the club and passed on to the next person on the waiting list. Keep it consistent, and fair to everyone.

Mainly on the grounds of stopping the stadium being filled up with loads of Billy no mates.

Its a very grey area - people without want it passed down the seaosn ticket wait list and people that go with someone want to continue going with a mate.

If this does happen then guaranteed seats year on year for season ticket holders should also change so you can accomadate people to move around to be seated next to mates. 

Another administrative nightmare.

[ant]

Will it? Have you seen the price!?

have you seen what you get for the price, the tickets are from the club so legit !

[Hightown Phil]

Late to this, but, on what grounds?

And with the waiting list now closed to new applicants, what if the friend/family member in question isn't on it?

I personally think that in that scenario the ticket should be returned to the club and passed on to the next person on the waiting list. Keep it consistent, and fair to everyone.

Loads of people going the game on their own. Sounds a great way of making the atmosphere great.

I'm only talking about people on the waiting list here.

[Grobbelrevell]

Loads of people going the game on their own. Sounds a great way of making the atmosphere great.

Mainly on the grounds of stopping the stadium being filled up with loads of Billy no mates.

This is another, albeit linked, issue though, to my mind.

I completely agree that ways in which the club can make it easier for people to sit together should be explored. What I don't agree with is the passing down/on of tickets, when there are literally thousands on the waiting list. You'd effectively be penalising people on the waiting list for not knowing existing season ticket holders.

If this does happen then guaranteed seats year on year for season ticket holders should also change so you can accomadate people to move around to be seated next to mates. 

Another administrative nightmare.

With the members scheme the club allows you to sign up for what is effectively a cup season ticket, at which point you can select the seats that you want for that competition for the coming season. This year I sorted four for myself and three mates in the Kop. Now, I appreciate that there'd be a lot to consider with implementing something similar for season tickets, but is there not the bones of a viable option there? Why not when renewals come around, have season ticket holders choose their spec for that season, in the same way that members do with the cups? In turn you can therefore choose specs for you and any linked accounts (family/friends) at the same time. It could also allow for those who want to sit in different specs to try and do so, with price differences taken into account and depending on your selection, a final price offered on checkout.

[Hightown Phil]

To be honest, I think there's an element of there being flaws in the waiting list.

Who deserves a ticket more, someone who wrote their name on a list 15 years ago or someone who's been to the last 100 home league games as an example? Obviously, it can be both but I'm not totally sure that going from the top is the best way of doing it, although it's obviously the logical one.

[KOTP]

The club allowing friends etc to sit together would be good the monumental fuck up last summer left a load of us in back row of paddock and first row of main stand who only got to know each other through being season ticket holders sat together are now scattered over the place due to the crazy way the club went about reallocating seAts

[Grobbelrevell]

Who deserves a ticket more, someone who wrote their name on a list 15 years ago or someone who's been to the last 100 home league games as an example? Obviously, it can be both but I'm not totally sure that going from the top is the best way of doing it, although it's obviously the logical one.

It's not black and white though, as you allude to yourself. There will be people on that waiting list who go regularly, but have never had the chance to have a season ticket. They've as much right to one as anyone else.

[ant]

it cost nothing to get on the list then they asked for £5 to be kept on it so that would of cleaned the list up and cut down numbers. most people on it know are maybe match goers anyway, sad to say that some will be dead even. its not their fault the list takes ages to be on to get a season ticket.

[Smurfite]

With the members scheme the club allows you to sign up for what is effectively a cup season ticket, at which point you can select the seats that you want for that competition for the coming season. This year I sorted four for myself and three mates in the Kop. Now, I appreciate that there'd be a lot to consider with implementing something similar for season tickets, but is there not the bones of a viable option there? Why not when renewals come around, have season ticket holders choose their spec for that season, in the same way that members do with the cups? In turn you can therefore choose specs for you and any linked accounts (family/friends) at the same time. It could also allow for those who want to sit in different specs to try and do so, with price differences taken into account and depending on your selection, a final price offered on checkout.

I actually quite like this idea. However I can see a couple issues.


      1. Some people are gonna have a historic attachment to where they sit and may not want to change it. This means it's gonna be a mad rush (probably on the shite ticket website) to try and sort out thousands of STH's trying to choose a seat that they want. I can see a lot of people missing out because of technical glitches and the like.

      2. If you have to purchase via friends and family (like on the ticket sales) for a group of your mates that's gonna end up in the Thousands. It's hard enough trying to get my mates to chip in for taxifare on our way to town nevermind transferring thousands of pounds into one account so it can get flagged by the bank as being a suspicious payment and whack you back in the queue.


That said I do like the idea of having the tickets able to move yearly for those who want it. Maybe if you had an automatic system which grouped STH who wanted to be grouped in their chosen "preferred areas" of the ground.Then if weren't happy with where the computer put you then there's a day when you can solo move your ticket into the available spaces. Groups of STH can stay together if that's whats important but if there's a specific area you want then you get the chance to try and grab it in the mad rush.

[timmit]

I cannot agree with season tickets being passed down, not under any circumstances. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult for people to relocate seats next to/or closer to each other on renewal though?

[jizzspunk]

I actually quite like this idea. However I can see a couple issues.


      1. Some people are gonna have a historic attachment to where they sit and may not want to change it. This means it's gonna be a mad rush (probably on the shite ticket website) to try and sort out thousands of STH's trying to choose a seat that they want. I can see a lot of people missing out because of technical glitches and the like.

     

quite clearly the first option would be that STH decide if they want to remain in their current seat before a potential free for all of moving seats/stands if one desires

to take someone's current seat off them and ask them to log on with 30k others to pick a seat is truly ludicrous

Just another naff idea on these pages 

[Grobbelrevell]

I actually quite like this idea. However I can see a couple issues.


      1. Some people are gonna have a historic attachment to where they sit and may not want to change it. This means it's gonna be a mad rush (probably on the shite ticket website) to try and sort out thousands of STH's trying to choose a seat that they want. I can see a lot of people missing out because of technical glitches and the like.

Yeah, this is undoubtedly one of the issues that would need to be given some serious thought. Maybe, as jazzfunk says, you give all STH the chance to (1) remain in their current spec, or (2) add them back into a pool for selection on renewal, and then that becomes an annual choice to be made.

      2. If you have to purchase via friends and family (like on the ticket sales) for a group of your mates that's gonna end up in the Thousands. It's hard enough trying to get my mates to chip in for taxifare on our way to town nevermind transferring thousands of pounds into one account so it can get flagged by the bank as being a suspicious payment and whack you back in the queue.

It is possible though, with some organisation. Or, could the club not take a deposit on reserving specs online, and then deduct the remaining amount from peoples account directly, following a choice of spec being made?

Just another naff idea on these pages 

Thing is, people want change, but only when it suits them. And the problem with that is, no individual change is going to suit every single stakeholder on this. There's undoubtedly going to need to be some give and take if progress is to be made.

[Tommypig]

Loads of people going the game on their own. Sounds a great way of making the atmosphere great.

I'm only talking about people on the waiting list here.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/men-stay-friends-by-going-to-the-pub-and-watching-football-research-finds-a3470836.html

[jonnypb]

Lots of ideas, but until the club/police decide to take a harsher stance on things then it's all pointless. I think it will be very hard to introduce a system that stops someone from buying a ticket and selling it on above FV as there will always be ways round it.

At every match there are touts openinly selling tickets outside the ground, in the local pubs and near pickup points for travel to the ground in the city centre.  I see them every match I go to, how hard is it for the authories in conjunction with LFC to lift these people and take the tickets off them?

At the Spurs match someone said to a guy on my row "Can I sit anywhere on this row?".  He was told no you'll have an allocated seat, he had a print out the size of a till receipt with his seating details on, it also had on the the receipt the cost he paid for the seat which was over £100.  It was from a ticket touting website, I saw him showing it to a Steward so that he could be directed to the row he was sitting in as it was obviously his first match.  The steward will have seen it was from a touting website but wasn't bothered.

[wewonit5timesinistanbul]

Club also need to look at how a season ticket holder can take his kids to a game, at the moment the only way to do it is use somebody else's ticket. I have asked the ticket office a lot of times how I can do this and they cant give me an answer.

Graham is it possible to ask the club at the next supporters meeting if they can answer this question?

Thanks

[Graham Smith]

Club also need to look at how a season ticket holder can take his kids to a game, at the moment the only way to do it is use somebody else's ticket. I have asked the ticket office a lot of times how I can do this and they cant give me an answer.

Graham is it possible to ask the club at the next supporters meeting if they can answer this question?

Thanks

I can answer it - you can't - unless you get them memberships and buy tickets that way for them and you and put your ST through the exchange.

The ground just isn't big enough.

[wewonit5timesinistanbul]

Didn't think you could have a season ticket and membership card in same name and address.

Surely the club need to look at it as other than giving up my season ticket it's impossible for season ticket holders to take there kids to the match. Not sure if another way around it but a idea is If they let a season Ticket holder buy in the membership sale and that game replaced the normal seat when buying a dad/lad ticket (sounds a bit of a complicated way and don't think the system could do that ),

Any other ideas would be good to see if we could put them forward to LFC

[markthescouser]

Slightly away from where the conversation has gone with the issues around ST, but I've had some thoughts on the touting problems and the people who are involved with touting and ticket transfers.

First of all, I don't think too many people have a problem with genuine fans passing on a few games a season to mates and family, or even sharing a card with someone to get around problems with shifts, money or anything else. Unfortunately it seems these sorts of people are the ones who will get caught in the crossfire with the suggestions of photos, ID, inspections and similar.

Secondly, the people who buy off the touts. Not ideal, sometimes day trippers and sometimes regular fans who don't go to many games but want one for a match they can make, or a big game they want to go to. These are half the problem when it comes to touting, the demand side, however I do have some sympathy as it's the only way many of them can get a ticket. Take away the touts and these people would be more than happy to buy through a legitimate channel, at a fair price.

Finally, the touts. These are the people we need to target. The way I see them working is by having a members card with 13/14/15+ credits on, so guaranteed the bulk for the next season. Buy all the tickets, get the credits and then sell them on to recoup the outlay plus a profit. To stop them then, we need to hit the credits so they can't continue.

The popular suggestion is target the ticket after it's been passed on so you can identify which accounts are being used to tout and then take their credits off them and possible hand out a ban. As I noted earlier though, a lot of genuine fans get caught as collateral with this which isn't ideal. Not to mention the massive amount of hassle it would be to set up and check photos, IDs or even finger prints.

My suggestion then, is to hit the credits directly. Set up stations actually inside the ground where there's essentially a credit amnesty. You take the card or ticket you used to get into the ground, swipe it and swipe your card (either existing or a shiny new £25 one you can buy at the stand) and the credit gets transferred from the original to yours. No come back, that's it.

This gets around the issue of passing a ticket to a mate, a family member and even fv on the ticket exchange to another rawk member (hopefully, anyway). The only time you're in danger of losing credits is when you sell to a random who you've ripped off for double the price.

Now there are some issues. I'm sure a few people will have a problem in effectively rewarding people for buying touted tickets but to them I say it's a means to an end. Stop the touts and there will then be no need to reward people any more. Essentially, don't cut your nose off to spite your face. Secondly, not everyone's going to take advatage of the credit swap. Your stereotypical lad from China who's in the UK for a couple of weeks and wants to take in a game clearly isn't going to do it as he doesn't have a members card, isn't going to get one and it's all round more hassle than it's worth for him. However all it takes is a few people in a year and the tout goes below the threshold for guaranteed tickets and struggles the next season.

In fact, I've just thought of a way to address both these problems is the ability to still use the stations but just to remove a credit from a card with no come back and no need to necessarily transfer it. Obviously it's not perfect, nothing is, but I think it's a decent crack at solving the majority of the problems.

[Shanklygates]

Interesting that. I can see some of that working, although touts often don't just have ONE ST or FC - they have lots and access to lots more via family/neighbours etc. Like a proper factory. So if the tourist doesn't transfer the credit as they don't have a FC, the tout will stay on those credits. They do it for cash not credits surely? Although yes, they would need a certain amount of credits I guess.

I too feel for people who share a ST and might not be allowed to in future. I don't see the harm either, and your idea would get round that.

Transferring credits... what would they need to do that? Obviously you don't want people transferring credits from fans who are there, but who others say they aren't. Would require a few checks.....

 They are what comes to mind right away but people could comes up with tweaks to solve them

[toonboy]

Slightly away from where the conversation has gone with the issues around ST, but I've had some thoughts on the touting problems and the people who are involved with touting and ticket transfers.

First of all, I don't think too many people have a problem with genuine fans passing on a few games a season to mates and family, or even sharing a card with someone to get around problems with shifts, money or anything else. Unfortunately it seems these sorts of people are the ones who will get caught in the crossfire with the suggestions of photos, ID, inspections and similar.

Secondly, the people who buy off the touts. Not ideal, sometimes day trippers and sometimes regular fans who don't go to many games but want one for a match they can make, or a big game they want to go to. These are half the problem when it comes to touting, the demand side, however I do have some sympathy as it's the only way many of them can get a ticket. Take away the touts and these people would be more than happy to buy through a legitimate channel, at a fair price.

Finally, the touts. These are the people we need to target. The way I see them working is by having a members card with 13/14/15+ credits on, so guaranteed the bulk for the next season. Buy all the tickets, get the credits and then sell them on to recoup the outlay plus a profit. To stop them then, we need to hit the credits so they can't continue.

The popular suggestion is target the ticket after it's been passed on so you can identify which accounts are being used to tout and then take their credits off them and possible hand out a ban. As I noted earlier though, a lot of genuine fans get caught as collateral with this which isn't ideal. Not to mention the massive amount of hassle it would be to set up and check photos, IDs or even finger prints.

My suggestion then, is to hit the credits directly. Set up stations actually inside the ground where there's essentially a credit amnesty. You take the card or ticket you used to get into the ground, swipe it and swipe your card (either existing or a shiny new £25 one you can buy at the stand) and the credit gets transferred from the original to yours. No come back, that's it.

This gets around the issue of passing a ticket to a mate, a family member and even fv on the ticket exchange to another rawk member (hopefully, anyway). The only time you're in danger of losing credits is when you sell to a random who you've ripped off for double the price.

Now there are some issues. I'm sure a few people will have a problem in effectively rewarding people for buying touted tickets but to them I say it's a means to an end. Stop the touts and there will then be no need to reward people any more. Essentially, don't cut your nose off to spite your face. Secondly, not everyone's going to take advatage of the credit swap. Your stereotypical lad from China who's in the UK for a couple of weeks and wants to take in a game clearly isn't going to do it as he doesn't have a members card, isn't going to get one and it's all round more hassle than it's worth for him. However all it takes is a few people in a year and the tout goes below the threshold for guaranteed tickets and struggles the next season.

In fact, I've just thought of a way to address both these problems is the ability to still use the stations but just to remove a credit from a card with no come back and no need to necessarily transfer it. Obviously it's not perfect, nothing is, but I think it's a decent crack at solving the majority of the problems.

that is a very good idea, and extremely easy to implement from a technology point of view, no need for the tout to know he lost that credit until the next season either, and no way to know in which games they lost those credits, it could have been there mate johnny, or that chinese guy or some out of towner, no way he will know.

[markthescouser]

that is a very good idea, and extremely easy to implement from a technology point of view, no need for the tout to know he lost that credit until the next season either, and no way to know in which games they lost those credits, it could have been there mate johnny, or that chinese guy or some out of towner, no way he will know.

Cheers. Think it would have to be kept this way also to stop the tout seeing that he's down to 15credits and pulling the card from use in future games.The anonymity from both the club and the tout would be a major help in getting people to participate. The club would really have to advertise and push this point though to get people on board.

You're right about the ease of implementing it technology wise too. Would probably only need an addition to the scanners that the stewards already have on them. Could even send a couple of stewards to the aways with some scanners to stand in the concourse and do exactly the same thing there as well.

Interesting that. I can see some of that working, although touts often don't just have ONE ST or FC - they have lots and access to lots more via family/neighbours etc. Like a proper factory. So if the tourist doesn't transfer the credit as they don't have a FC, the tout will stay on those credits. They do it for cash not credits surely? Although yes, they would need a certain amount of credits I guess.

I too feel for people who share a ST and might not be allowed to in future. I don't see the harm either, and your idea would get round that.

Transferring credits... what would they need to do that? Obviously you don't want people transferring credits from fans who are there, but who others say they aren't. Would require a few checks.....

 They are what comes to mind right away but people could comes up with tweaks to solve them

Yea it's all about sorting out the finer details- bound to be stuff I haven't thought of but with any luck, nothing glaringly obvious.

The point about touts having more than one card in other people's names is right, but I figure they would be looking to shift every card for every game no matter who's name it's in. My suggestion won't help catch the actual person who's doing the touting, so they're still going to be out there, but hopefully this just makes it harder for them to do it. So much so that it's not worth while anymore.

As for the credit transfer. My thought was that you'd have to go to a station with the ticket or members card that you bought for x amount of pounds. You declare it as touted ticket and as an incentive for people to do this, you then give the fella at the station your card and you get a credit for the match instead. Obviously being able to take a credit off any random seat in the stadium would lead to carnage!

The one group that this probably won't touch though is the occasional tout. The guy who gets the ticket because he goes but if he's not at the game sells his ticket for a profit. Don't know how many people actually do this but can't think there's too many? Surely?

[Smurfite]

Slightly away from where the conversation has gone with the issues around ST, but I've had some thoughts on the touting problems and the people who are involved with touting and ticket transfers.

First of all, I don't think too many people have a problem with genuine fans passing on a few games a season to mates and family, or even sharing a card with someone to get around problems with shifts, money or anything else. Unfortunately it seems these sorts of people are the ones who will get caught in the crossfire with the suggestions of photos, ID, inspections and similar.

Secondly, the people who buy off the touts. Not ideal, sometimes day trippers and sometimes regular fans who don't go to many games but want one for a match they can make, or a big game they want to go to. These are half the problem when it comes to touting, the demand side, however I do have some sympathy as it's the only way many of them can get a ticket. Take away the touts and these people would be more than happy to buy through a legitimate channel, at a fair price.

Finally, the touts. These are the people we need to target. The way I see them working is by having a members card with 13/14/15+ credits on, so guaranteed the bulk for the next season. Buy all the tickets, get the credits and then sell them on to recoup the outlay plus a profit. To stop them then, we need to hit the credits so they can't continue.

The popular suggestion is target the ticket after it's been passed on so you can identify which accounts are being used to tout and then take their credits off them and possible hand out a ban. As I noted earlier though, a lot of genuine fans get caught as collateral with this which isn't ideal. Not to mention the massive amount of hassle it would be to set up and check photos, IDs or even finger prints.

My suggestion then, is to hit the credits directly. Set up stations actually inside the ground where there's essentially a credit amnesty. You take the card or ticket you used to get into the ground, swipe it and swipe your card (either existing or a shiny new £25 one you can buy at the stand) and the credit gets transferred from the original to yours. No come back, that's it.

This gets around the issue of passing a ticket to a mate, a family member and even fv on the ticket exchange to another rawk member (hopefully, anyway). The only time you're in danger of losing credits is when you sell to a random who you've ripped off for double the price.

Now there are some issues. I'm sure a few people will have a problem in effectively rewarding people for buying touted tickets but to them I say it's a means to an end. Stop the touts and there will then be no need to reward people any more. Essentially, don't cut your nose off to spite your face. Secondly, not everyone's going to take advatage of the credit swap. Your stereotypical lad from China who's in the UK for a couple of weeks and wants to take in a game clearly isn't going to do it as he doesn't have a members card, isn't going to get one and it's all round more hassle than it's worth for him. However all it takes is a few people in a year and the tout goes below the threshold for guaranteed tickets and struggles the next season.

In fact, I've just thought of a way to address both these problems is the ability to still use the stations but just to remove a credit from a card with no come back and no need to necessarily transfer it. Obviously it's not perfect, nothing is, but I think it's a decent crack at solving the majority of the problems.

Really like this idea. Give the people who actually go to the game the credit for the game.

My only question is what if the card being used is a ST rather than a Fan card? It's not like you can lose a home game credit off a Season ticket like.

[markthescouser]

Really like this idea. Give the people who actually go to the game the credit for the game.

My only question is what if the card being used is a ST rather than a Fan card? It's not like you can lose a home game credit off a Season ticket like.

Yea good point, I'm not too sure to be honest. Only been on the ST waiting list since 2004 so obviously nowhere near getting one! Anyone any ideas? Are ST touted much?

[jizzspunk]

surely the flaw is Stations within the ground......queues.....blocked concourses......etc.......imaginative but unworkable

[markthescouser]

surely the flaw is Stations within the ground......queues.....blocked concourses......etc.......imaginative but unworkable

Doesn't have to be stations. We already touched on the fact that an application could probably be easily added to the scanners that all the stewards have, but I'm sure feasibility studies and all that good stuff would have to be done. Quite a long way off where we are now though.

As for season tickets, maybe a strike system? Something like, your card gets scanned 3 times in a season for being touted and then it's revoked? Wouldn't hurt to still give the people who took the card to get scanned a credit too if that's deemed central to the plan?

[Shanklygates]

It's getting there! Are they all paper tickets? I thought some were on fan cards - though guess they could take that to the "station" and it would be obvious who it belonged to. Or ST...

[Alf]

I think the club should have a real purge the 1st home game of next season. Buy loads of tickets from touts on membership cards and Season Tickets, then cancel the cards. The club get back their outlay by reselling the tickets which hopefully end up in more deserving homes.

[Jake]

That idea above is great!

[hawkwind]

I think the club should have a real purge the 1st home game of next season. Buy loads of tickets from touts on membership cards and Season Tickets, then cancel the cards. The club get back their outlay by reselling the tickets which hopefully end up in more deserving homes.

I would like to see them do it this season to help ease sales for the next one.
Good idea though probably the best way to stop the touts.

[Shanklygates]

Now you need to suggest it to the club or SSC reps!

[hoppyLFC]

Just heard the news on Radio City that the government is going to be clampling down on touting websites, hopefully they will acheive something.

[sowellred]

Good idea above. Problem is that the touts will be one step ahead - they will ask for a refundable deposit for the returned card. It may work if the credits were taken off the tout card just before the July sale.

[jizzspunk]

Government legislation will have nothing to do with Football......more concerts/festivals etc......

[J_Kopite]

Potentially good news for future sales:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/mar/10/ministers-to-criminalise-use-of-ticket-tout-harvesting-software

[kalle-anka]

But does the clamping down effect site all over the world or just the UK?
(Can't be bothered reading atm)

[Alf]

Good idea above. Problem is that the touts will be one step ahead - they will ask for a refundable deposit for the returned card. It may work if the credits were taken off the tout card just before the July sale.

I'd be interested in people's thoughts on this as I don't buy tickets from touts. I think there is a limit to how much cash people carry around with them and that doesn't include a refundable deposit if they are buying a ticket from a tout.

[Danny Boys Dad]

Just noticed on the away details for WBA and Stoke that they let people with the highest number of credits buy 10 tickets per transaction, everyone else is 4.

Why do that? Doesn't that just make it less work for the people buying wads of tickets? Might be easier for genuine supporters as well but how many of them are buying 10 tickets in one go? Seems odd.

[Danthemanaussiered]

Because we want more people to sit (stand) together. Also selling in blocks of 10 means less single/double seats in later sales. In the later sales it would be hard to find a chunk of tickets together and by only allowing 4 a time, its fairer for smaller groups, a bigger groups needs just 1 of 10 people to get through to sort the group.
Finally in later sales the chances of a group of 10 being in a similar credit level is rare, but higher levels with people on lots a different credits being in the same sale it would be easier to get a group of 10