Topic: Gay Footballers

[TheShanklyGates]

What happens when we "tolerate" religious intolerance?

What happens when we "tolerate" the LGBT community's intolerance for religious intolerance?

What happens when tolerating one thing places you at (controversial, hypocritical) odds with tolerating another thing?

What does "tolerance" even mean anyway?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Basically we have to be intolerant of intolerance or society will descend into an intolerant hellscape.

[RAWK Meltdown #1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Basically we have to be intolerant of intolerance or society will descend into an intolerant hellscape.

I personally struggle with anybody who (for example) campaigns for "western" LGBT tolerance.....on the one hand.....but who also tries to advocate tolerance for Islam and the "rights" of its adherents.

These two things are diametrically opposed.

It is my belief that the LGBT community know that western homophobes are also likely to be xenophobes...but are concerned about adopting any position which may look like they are (partly) in critical alliance with homophobes....albeit for totally different reasons.

The xenophobic stance being: "Bloody foreigners and their violent, unwholesome religions..."

The LGBT stance being: " Let's welcome one and all...but yes...this religion IS very problematic and intolerant.."

I think your average xenophobe knows just what an enemy of LGBT...Islam really is....and some of the more hardcore xenophobes out there are reluctant to hear LGBT "tolerance" lectures which basically just target the low-hanging-fruit....namely....the Christianised west. Christianity being a long ago "subdued" religion which no longer offers any large-scale (influential) threat or obstacle to LGBT acceptance.

Picture your typical Alf Garnett type xenophobe saying:

" We're all fine with the LGBT community nowadays..it's your muslims who are your real problem, you wanna start goin after them and giving them both barrels because they're your real problem..."

And yes....there may actually be more than a grain of truth in this fictitious xenophobic rant, but Islam is a culturally solidified, powerful collective in the extreme....especially within it's own lands.

How do LGBT groups even "begin" to tackle this?

But more pertinently....should your typical Alf Garnett type xenophobe at least expect LGBT groups to be just as vocally critical of Islam's intolerances as they are of the western "home-grown" intolerances they encounter?

Should Islam get a "pass" just because its a different culture which operates in a different part of the world?

Should it get a pass because it appears to be a culture which is easy to inflame and incite towards an extremely violent response....when criticised?

Is Islamic thought...so entrenched and non-malleable....that it just needs to be ring-fenced as an honourable "exception" whenever it permeates or collides with western sensibilities?

As seems to be the case with this footballer....and his refusal to adorn himself with emblems which contradict his fundamental beliefs?

Answers on a postcard.....

 

[the 92A]

you can be an advocate for tolerance of LGBT in the west in the east, the north the south, in fact anywhere you want and also be for tolerance and no discrimination against Islam Christianity or any other religion. Tolerance and advocating lack of discrimination doesn't mean you agree with the religion, just you don't think people should be discriminated against for being religious, Some of the mad christians in the US come out with all sorts of backward ideas, doesn't mean you agree with them if you are tolerant of peoples right to be Christians.


This is getting too abstract and moving too far away from the football and the need to look at the problem of why so many Gay players find football a difficult environment to be themselves and how can be overcome

[thejbs]

you can be an advocate for tolerance of LGBT in the west in the east, the north the south, in fact anywhere you want and also be for tolerance and no discrimination against Islam Christianity or any other religion. Tolerance and advocating lack of discrimination doesn't mean you agree with the religion, just you don't think people should be discriminated against for being religious, Some of the mad christians in the US come out with all sorts of backward ideas, doesn't mean you agree with them if you are tolerant of peoples right to be Christians.


This is getting too abstract and moving too far away from the football and the need to look at the problem of why so many Gay players find football a difficult environment to be themselves and how can be overcome

I respect and would defend the right to religion with the caveat that it can never be used to justify inequality or excuse the denial of rights. Human rights trump religion every single time.

I don’t think religion-based bigotry should be ‘tolerated’ at all. One of the most damaging things about religions is the assertion that they cannot be challenged - that it’s offensive or blasphemous. Bollocks to that.

[stockdam]

I know that this is an important subject but on one hand it really shouldn't be. We shouldn't care about somebody's sexuality and they shouldn't have to "come out".
I don't know, nor care who is gay where I work and I don't expect them to stand up in front of everyone and say so.

To answer Sarge's questions.....

1. Why do they not come out?

I don't see that they need to. It's none of our business.
Yes it would help other gay players but they can probably support each other if needed privately. However I would hope that other players would help them no matter what and they shouldn't need to form a support group. I would hope that our senior players would help any of the other players facing any issues, no matter what they are. I think Henderson would be one of the first to offer his support.
I would also guess that they don't come out because of the possible problems they may face. There will always be one asshole who thinks it is cool to smack them in the teeth at a nightclub.

2. Would they get the fan support.

In general terms yes they would. I think our fans would applaud any player who has just come out.
However, it's not that long ago that we used the term "rent boys" for Chelsea.......so why would any gay player feel comfortable at Anfield? I hope that we never hear that chant again. Wasn't it some of our fans who shouted abuse at Billy Gilmour at the start of this season so it wasn't just aimed at the whole of the Chelsea team but against one of them on loan to Norwich. Ok so this wasn't aimed at a gay footballer but it would concern me if I was gay.

The main problem is that some fans or some clubs would use it against them and shout vile comments at them. Imagine taking a throw in and listening to grown men shouting abuse at you. Best not to take the risk and not to come out.

Also imagine being a top player like Salah.........do you think he would get applauded by the opposition fans?

Or an international player at a stadium in Poland, Hungary, Russia or other country who have little respect for gay people.

3. Are Clubs doing enough to help them.

I really don't know. I would like to think that most clubs would especially the larger clubs.

4. Are FIFA and associations doing the same.

No. They say that they have zero tolerance yet they allow matches to go ahead when there has been a history of homophobic chants, flags etc.

[thejbs]

Never mind visiting homophobic countries on international duty, how would Newcastle and city owners respond to a player on their payroll coming out? How would their pre-season tour in the Middle East work with a abominable and law-breaking gay footballer?

[Elmo!]

Craig Napier: Scottish referee comes out and wants 'to see the climate change'

Craig Napier has become the first Scottish referee to come out publicly as gay.

The category one official follows footballers Josh Cavallo and Jake Daniels in coming out.

Napier said he was inspired by the players' decision and believes it is time "to see the climate change" within the sport.

"It's something that I never thought I'd be sitting here doing," Napier told the Scottish FA.

"It's something I've obviously lived with for a long time. It's been a difficult journey to get to this point. It's really important that people like me are willing to sit here and do this.

"I don't think this needs to be a news story but I think at the moment, it really does because we need to see the climate change so that people do feel that they can be their true self and live happily and comfortable in their own skin. And then that needs to transcend into football."

    'I'm proud my coming out inspired Jake Daniels'

When not refereeing, Napier, who took charge of 32 SPFL and domestic cup fixtures during the 2021-22 season, works for the NHS and revealed he had "never had a bad experience when I've had these conversations".

"I've always felt so much lighter after speaking about it," he explained.

"This isn't a conversation about me, this is a conversation about trying to change the culture in Scottish football.

"There is something about football, there's still that barrier. Hopefully here in Scotland I can play a small part in hoping that it can inspire whoever is out there to be more comfortable in who they are and have the conversations with their family, their friends, their team-mates and come out publicly if they feel able to.

"There are no footballers on the pitch who are [openly gay], but they are there. And until we have these conversations and these role models on the pitch, there will be that stigma and that fear."

Cavallo, who plays for Australian club Adelaide United, came out last October, making him the only currently openly gay top-flight male professional footballer in the world.

Daniels, a forward with English second-tier club Blackpool, announced in May that he is gay. He was the first professional in the UK men's game for more than 30 years to come out while still playing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61671888

Is it too early to say we are starting to see a domino effect?

[Barneylfc∗]

Is it too early to say we are starting to see a domino effect?

Hopefully not and there are many more to come. Great to see.

[Elmo!]

Hopefully not and there are many more to come. Great to see.

An hour later, the article has been updated...

Scottish referees Craig Napier and Lloyd Wilson come out as gay

Two Scottish referees have become the first to come out publicly as gay.

Category one officials Craig Napier and Lloyd Wilson follow footballers Josh Cavallo and Jake Daniels in coming out.

Napier said he was inspired by the players' decision and believes it is time "to see the climate change" within the sport.

"It's something that I never thought I'd be sitting here doing," he told the Scottish FA.

"It's something I've obviously lived with for a long time. It's been a difficult journey to get to this point. It's really important that people like me are willing to sit here and do this.

"I don't think this needs to be a news story but I think at the moment, it really does because we need to see the climate change so that people do feel that they can be their true self and live happily and comfortable in their own skin. And then that needs to transcend into football."

    'I'm proud my coming out inspired Jake Daniels'

When not refereeing, Napier, who took charge of 32 SPFL and domestic cup fixtures during the 2021-22 season, works for the NHS and revealed he had "never had a bad experience when I've had these conversations".

"I've always felt so much lighter after speaking about it," he explained.

"This isn't a conversation about me, this is a conversation about trying to change the culture in Scottish football.

"There is something about football, there's still that barrier. Hopefully here in Scotland I can play a small part in hoping that it can inspire whoever is out there to be more comfortable in who they are and have the conversations with their family, their friends, their team-mates and come out publicly if they feel able to.

"There are no footballers on the pitch who are [openly gay], but they are there. And until we have these conversations and these role models on the pitch, there will be that stigma and that fear."

Cavallo, who plays for Australian club Adelaide United, came out last October, making him the only currently openly gay top-flight male professional footballer in the world.

Daniels, a forward with English second-tier club Blackpool, announced in May that he is gay. He was the first professional in the UK men's game for more than 30 years to come out while still playing.

In a video

to mental health charity Back Onside, Wilson, who officiates in the Lowland League, added: "I think really the reason [for coming out now] being that this has been a horrific journey, to be honest.

"A journey of maybe 17 years of living a life that I didn't want to live, living a lie, living the way that other people maybe wanted me to live or that I thought other people wanted me to live. And probably dictated and directed in many ways by football."

[Sarge]

Hopefully not and there are many more to come. Great to see.

Yup and I think if it is a massive outcoming then maybe it may be much easier for the many.

Good times.

[Red Cactii]

Hopefully not and there are many more to come. Great to see.

It’s fantastic to see that gay people in football are now feeling like they can just be themselves and don’t have to ‘hide’ their sexuality. Still a long way to go but any progress is good progress.

[TepidT2O]

Iker Casillas has just announced that he is gay…

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/breaking-iker-casillas-out-gay-28191996

All power to him

https://twitter.com/ikercasillas/status/1579081769890250753?s=61&t=c9ouTMnN5uqWotvNwSNKoA

[stoa]

Going through the responses to his tweet is depressing though. Twitter really is a fucking cesspit full of c*nts...

[Barneylfc∗]

Fair play to him 

[Rhi]

That is absolutely huge for the sport. It's such a shame he didn't feel comfortable enough to come out while he was still a player, but still a huge relief for him to finally speak his truth, I'm sure. All the best Iker. One of the absolute greats.

[Jack_Bauer]

Going through the responses to his tweet is depressing though. Twitter really is a fucking cesspit full of c*nts...

I scrolled through a little bit and yeah it made my skin crawl, I hate that place.

[Jwils21]

Going through the responses to his tweet is depressing though. Twitter really is a fucking cesspit full of c*nts...

Shows there is still so much stigma to break. It’s so sad.

Carles Puyol has commented saying “it’s time to tell our story”, not sure if that’s lost in translation.

[Crosby Nick]

What’s the first bit of his tweet say? I hope that you respect me?

Good luck to him. World Cup winning captain (I think?). Pretty huge name either way.

[Barneylfc∗]

Shows there is still so much stigma to break. It’s so sad.

Carles Puyol has commented saying “it’s time to tell our story”, not sure if that’s lost in translation.

With a heart and a kiss emoji. Bit of an odd thing to say if they aren't at it 

[redgriffin73]

Is the Puyol thing maybe meant to be a bit of a supportive but maybe ill-timed joke?

[Garlicbread]

Is the Puyol thing maybe meant to be a bit of a supportive but maybe ill-timed joke?

Thats how I read it honestly.

[Ray K]

Thats how I read it honestly.

to be honest I wouldn't be surprised that in a few hours it was announced that their accounts were hacked, so I'll hold off on anything else.

[Jwils21]

AS reporting it’s a sarcastic response to rumours about his personal life. Ouch.

[TepidT2O]

Well. As I’ll as has deleted the tweet and Spanish media are starting to report that it was a joke…

The joke may well back fire on him if true…

[elsewhere]

"Iker Casillas has not been hacked. He ironically tweeted that he is gay due to the media spreading rumours linking him to new women every week."

[Jwils21]

Hopefully this kicks off a deep conversation about the bigotry and hate spewed by people towards others. Doubt it though.

[Snail]

"Iker Casillas has not been hacked. He ironically tweeted that he is gay due to the media spreading rumours linking him to new women every week."

Difficult to overstate how damaging this is for LGBTQ+ footballers and supporters. What an absolute c*nt.

[redgriffin73]

Shameful behaviour.

[TepidT2O]

Difficult to overstate how damaging this is for LGBTQ+ footballers and supporters. What an absolute c*nt.

Yep, utterly shameful. An utter disgrace.

[Garlicbread]

Ughhhh idiots

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Fucking disgusting from Casillas and presumably Pouyol too. Fucking shameful behavior

[Jack_Bauer]

"Iker Casillas has not been hacked. He ironically tweeted that he is gay due to the media spreading rumours linking him to new women every week."

What a knob

[Red-Soldier]

Hilarious banter!

No wonder so many people think football is a sport for morons, played by morons!

[Kenny's Jacket]

One of the lads I go the game with has recently come out , I was really excited to text him the news, now I have to text him back.

What a fucking twat.

[Snail]

One of the lads I go the game with has recently come out , I was really excited to text him the news, now I have to text him back.

What a fucking twat.

That’s it, there’s so many people who would have been inspired by this, made to feel better, only to find out that they’re the punchline of a joke. It’s disgraceful.

[Linudden]

It's the homophobes in the comments that are disgusting, not the ex-footballer who cracked what he felt was an edgy joke, felt sick in the game and probably had no awareness of the implications. That's just called being silly.

Rather certain he'll admit it wasn't the best idea himself having seen what then unfolded.

[Chakan]

It's the homophobes in the comments that are disgusting, not the ex-footballer who cracked what he felt was an edgy joke, felt sick in the game and probably had no awareness of the implications. That's just called being silly.

Really? He been living under a rock for the past 10 years has he?

Fuck them both.

[Red-Soldier]

It's the homophobes in the comments that are disgusting, not the ex-footballer who cracked what he felt was an edgy joke, felt sick in the game and probably had no awareness of the implications. That's just called being silly.

Rather certain he'll admit it wasn't the best idea himself having seen what then unfolded.

Strange take this.

[Dim Glas]

It's the homophobes in the comments that are disgusting, not the ex-footballer who cracked what he felt was an edgy joke, felt sick in the game and probably had no awareness of the implications. That's just called being silly.

Rather certain he'll admit it wasn't the best idea himself having seen what then unfolded.

Casillas is an idiot though, surely he would realise what a comments like this would do on a cesspit like Twitter, and in general.  Or maybe he is just so incredibly thick that he doesn’t.

[Kenny's Jacket]

That’s it, there’s so many people who would have been inspired by this, made to feel better, only to find out that they’re the punchline of a joke. It’s disgraceful.

I havent text him back yet, Im shitting out of doing it.  Hes on his way to Highbury, Ill have to do it before he gets out the car