Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1440744 times)

Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24520 on: August 17, 2019, 10:55:22 pm »

So. Matthew Paris has been reading my posts at RAWK again.Though, I am sure I am not the only one here to comment about Corbyn's true intentions all along. Corbyn is transparent. I do not understand why so many - even now - fail to see through him
I don't think anyone has failed to see what Corbyn is up to; it has been abundantly clear for years now. But politics goes on despite that. We tend to have a good idea as to what all the major players' intentions are but we still have to work as if they are all well-meaning public servants without shady agendas.

And regardless of intentions, the matter up for debate at the moment is what is likely to happen if No Deal cannot be prevented via legislation. Sadly, the likelihood is looking like MPs will not put country before party, and will see us crash out, rather than put their parties, pride and butt hurt aside
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24521 on: August 17, 2019, 11:00:25 pm »
...Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson, who is due to give her own Brexit speech on Thursday, appeared to reject the gambit outright.

She said: "Jeremy Corbyn is not the person who is going to be able to build an even temporary majority in the House of Commons for this task – I would expect there are people in his own party and indeed the necessary Conservative backbenchers who would be unwilling to support him. It is a nonsense..."

That seems a fair assessment of the situation. The criticism of Swinson seem to be based on her cutting to the chase rather than fannying around wasting time on a pointless exercise that was doomed to failure.

The ‘Corbyn as leader of a GoNU’ game requires everyone to play along with the fiction that Corbyn is competent and could actually coordinate a cross party coalition and carry the electorate.
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24522 on: August 17, 2019, 11:39:03 pm »
I don't think anyone has failed to see what Corbyn is up to; it has been abundantly clear for years now. But politics goes on despite that. We tend to have a good idea as to what all the major players' intentions are but we still have to work as if they are all well-meaning public servants without shady agendas.

And regardless of intentions, the matter up for debate at the moment is what is likely to happen if No Deal cannot be prevented via legislation. Sadly, the likelihood is looking like MPs will not put country before party, and will see us crash out, rather than put their parties, pride and butt hurt aside
In the main, I don't mean contributors to these threads at RAWK. I mean all those Corbyn supporters out there (including members of my family) who persist in thinking he's playing a blinder, is on their side, and is some kind of 3D chess master. And way many of the PLP for a verity of shitty reasons continue to support him too, all the way from stupidity right through to self-interested cynicism.

I now have little faith that the UK will somehow avoid crashing out of the EU. But as some others have commented, there are some upsides compared to the slower death from May's WA agreement: the problems will be stark, immediate, and without the filtering/clouding effects of being gradual.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 11:40:52 pm by Jiminy Cricket »
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Offline redmark

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24523 on: August 18, 2019, 12:19:27 am »
That seems a fair assessment of the situation. The criticism of Swinson seem to be based on her cutting to the chase rather than fannying around wasting time on a pointless exercise that was doomed to failure.

Or her preference for a slightly pointless exercise doomed to failure on her terms.

There's been a lot of focus on whether 14 Lib Dems, 5 Change UK, 13 Independents and 8-10 Tories can back a Labour minority government (and in truth, that's what Corbyn was offering - not a GNU) or not. But any GNU led by Clarke or similar is going to need the vast majority of Labour's 247 MPs. A small group of Hoey etc will vote with the government. A Labour led administration would have been the best prospect of keeping Kinnock's group of 30+ onside, and there are plenty of sceptics on the front bench who will now be able to snipe at any other compromise suggestions.

We better hope parliament has some crafty legislative mechanisms in mind. And more importantly, can agree on which one to use.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24524 on: August 18, 2019, 12:31:34 am »
Could it be that Corbyn, Swinson et al's overwrought bellicosity about potential GoNU line-ups in public might actually be beneficial, if it lets the more thoughtful and technically-minded MPs get on with privately discussing legislatory strategy in the background, so they can knock out Johnson and co with an unexpected southpaw while his eye is on all the GoNU noise?

It's what I would be doing if I was Cooper, Letwin, Starmer, Benn etc. Let the blowhards argue away in public while we formulate a legislatory campaign - what legislation to attempt, in which order, what the fall-backs are etc
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24525 on: August 18, 2019, 12:35:27 am »
Could it be that Corbyn, Swinson et al's overwrought bellicosity about potential GoNU line-ups in public might actually be beneficial, if it lets the more thoughtful and technically-minded MPs get on with privately discussing legislatory strategy in the background, so they can knock out Johnson and co with an unexpected southpaw while his eye is on all the GoNU noise?

It's what I would be doing if I was Cooper, Letwin, Starmer, Benn etc. Let the blowhards argue away in public while we formulate a legislatory campaign - what legislation to attempt, in which order, what the fall-backs are etc
It's absolutely notable that most of those are keeping quiet in public and presumably maintaining the back channel discussions they've been having for months. I'm just not convinced a majority is going to coalesce around any strategy, though.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24526 on: August 18, 2019, 11:36:15 am »
Or her preference for a slightly pointless exercise doomed to failure on her terms.

There's been a lot of focus on whether 14 Lib Dems, 5 Change UK, 13 Independents and 8-10 Tories can back a Labour minority government (and in truth, that's what Corbyn was offering - not a GNU) or not. But any GNU led by Clarke or similar is going to need the vast majority of Labour's 247 MPs. A small group of Hoey etc will vote with the government. A Labour led administration would have been the best prospect of keeping Kinnock's group of 30+ onside, and there are plenty of sceptics on the front bench who will now be able to snipe at any other compromise suggestions.

We better hope parliament has some crafty legislative mechanisms in mind. And more importantly, can agree on which one to use.


Kinnock's group of 30 or so supposedly want Brexit with a Deal not a No Deal Brexit, given a GNU would only get an extension to avoid no deal as opposed to block Brexit, there is really nothing there to force them to vote against, unless they really are shallow enough to think about their own election prospects and are happy to go for an option they know will be disastrous just so they can't be portrayed as stopping Brexit.

A few on the more Brexity end of the spectrum in Labour would probably vote against or abstain though, but you are still looking at fewer losses than you gain in the centre ground, but it only works if the Labour leadership is willing to compromise on the PM choice, which I doubt, even if they do I suspect the numbers are very tight.

Offline redmark

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24527 on: August 18, 2019, 12:42:58 pm »
Kinnock's group of 30 or so supposedly want Brexit with a Deal not a No Deal Brexit, given a GNU would only get an extension to avoid no deal as opposed to block Brexit, there is really nothing there to force them to vote against, unless they really are shallow enough to think about their own election prospects and are happy to go for an option they know will be disastrous just so they can't be portrayed as stopping Brexit.

A few on the more Brexity end of the spectrum in Labour would probably vote against or abstain though, but you are still looking at fewer losses than you gain in the centre ground, but it only works if the Labour leadership is willing to compromise on the PM choice, which I doubt, even if they do I suspect the numbers are very tight.
A GNU will seek an extension pending either an election or a referendum. I think you're significantly underestimating the number of Labour MPs in leave constituencies who want neither of those things to happen any time soon. Rebelling against a GNU which has a large number of vocal people in it who certainly do want to stop 'any Brexit' would be much easier for them than rebelling against a Labour minority administration enacting party policy.

My point is simply that the focus on the relatively small numbers of centrist and Tory wets is in danger of ignoring, or taking for granted, rather larger numbers of Labour MPs who are not at all inclined to stop all forms of Brexit. In doing so, and what we're already seeing, is the opening up of the gaps and disagreements between the varied flavours of anti-No-Deal rather than against the No Deal government.

If we then stumble into No Deal because of a lack of cohesion from it's opponents, we can look forward to plenty of arguments about who is to blame, when the answer will be 'all of the above', to some degree or another.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24528 on: August 18, 2019, 02:06:59 pm »
It's not just Labour MPs who won't back a specific outcome not their own from the off. The bulk of the Tory revolt will be from MPs who still want Brexit, just not 'no deal'. It's probably similar sized numbers in each party to be honest. 30 - 50 MPs a side (think it's currently 27 Tories who've outed themselves as being opposed to 'no deal' and won't get to stand next election unless/until they do - Tory pro-Johnson press hasn't stopped hammering on them since). Labour ones finding it much easier to justify votes as not supporting the government, of course.

In any case, there's more than one road to Johnson's desired story of "They stole our perfect Brexit".

-----

edit: should really be common sense, but New Statesman's Stephen Bush spelling it out in a column for the Sunday Times (paywall).

Spoiler
Quote
Party leaders write letters to one another for two reasons: to communicate or to wound. The quickest way to tell the difference between the former and the latter is the amount of time between the dispatch arriving in the inbox of its nominal recipient and it being released to journalists.

In the case of Jeremy Corbyn’s offer to the various political parties fighting to prevent a no-deal Brexit, the letter calling on them to support a caretaker administration led by him, with the sole purpose of extending article 50 and calling an election, reached journalists only a little more than five minutes after arriving in the inboxes of his fellow party leaders.

As a piece of political theatre, it was well judged — it dominated the coverage of Jo Swinson’s big speech on the threat of no-deal and how to prevent it. The Liberal Democrats naturally suspect this was deliberate, given the letter arrived not long after notice of their leader’s speech was sent to the press.

Labour is unsurprisingly satisfied by the effectiveness of the operation. The party’s MPs, including some of Corbyn’s most vocal critics, took to Twitter to urge the Lib Dem leader to support Corbyn’s attempt to form a government, and attacks on Swinson were Twitter’s No 1 trending topic. The Labour leadership has put a great deal of faith — and, more importantly, finance and staff time — into the idea that its ability to communicate on social media can outweigh the opposition of the traditional press, and that the engines of Corbynite outrage can still fire into full and effective life.

It has also turned the subject of a unity government from a silly summer story that casts Corbyn as the villain in the eyes of remain voters who are already dubious about him into a silly summer story in which Swinson is the one with explaining to do — or, at least, that’s Labour’s hope.

The question of a Labour-led caretaker government is painful for the Lib Dems for several reasons. The first is that, while Swinson’s party has a different position on Brexit from Corbyn’s, they have the same position on no-deal: they’re against it. The issue robs the Lib Dems of their distinctiveness and relegates them to a supporting role in the Labour leader’s orchestra.

The second is that there is no easy way to answer Corbyn’s letter. The Lib Dems’ path to victory runs through Tory voters who dislike Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Labour voters turned off by Corbyn and committed opponents of Brexit. To retain the first two groups, they cannot, in any circumstances, allow a link to be drawn between a Lib Dem vote and a Corbyn government; to hold on to the third, they have to sound open to any measure that would stop a no-deal Brexit.

Swinson confined her reaction to noting that Corbyn’s caretaker plan was doomed from the start. That line has the advantage of being the unimpeachable truth: 11 MPs left the Labour Party to sit as independents because they believe a Corbyn-led government would be a calamity, particularly as far as national security and foreign policy are concerned. There is little hope of that group voting to make the Labour leader prime minister, which means that it would require at least 14 Conservative MPs to vote for Corbyn to deliver a caretaker government.

There is scarcely a prospect of four, let alone 14. While Conservative objections to Corbyn extend well beyond foreign and security policy, it is those concerns that would stop them ever letting him into Downing Street, even on a temporary basis. Several of the most committed opponents of a no-deal Brexit have sat on the national security council, which is chaired by the prime minister of the day, and one of their number claims they feel “sick” over the prospect of letting Corbyn in. They haven’t forgotten that a brutal terrorist attack occurred during the last election campaign and wouldn’t forgive themselves if they put Corbyn’s hands on the wheel during the next.

Those Tory objections give Swinson a way out. Privately, she regards the Labour leader’s ascendancy as part of the dangerous populism that led to Brexit, the rise of Johnson and the success of the SNP — her main rivals in her home-town constituency of East Dunbartonshire. And she believes he is a Brexiteer to boot. She struggles to answer the question of which is worse, a no-deal Brexit or a Corbyn government, but as there is no realistic prospect of a caretaker government under him this side of an election, the problem is academic.

Corbyn’s own political objectives make it impossible for him to give way, either. The Labour leader still sees his path to No 10 as running through leave-voting towns — his latest policy, unveiled this weekend, to revive flagging high streets, is part of that project. He knows there could be few worse ways to kick off his next general election campaign than to collude in making a Conservative or a Corbyn-sceptic Labour MP prime minister to prevent a no-deal Brexit. He would, at a stroke, elevate the objections that his opponents have to a Corbyn government and undermine his hopes of winning over leave voters.

The Lib Dem leadership regards the conversation about a unity government as a distraction from the central question of how a no-deal Brexit will be stopped. More important than cobbling together a majority for an interim prime minister — something that is unlikely to happen — is finding a way for MPs to legislate to force an extension on the executive.

Cabinet ministers, watching the row with a mixture of glee and contempt, see the opposition’s internal squabbles as a sign that there will never be a majority to take the necessary action to prevent a no-deal Brexit. Their confidence may be misplaced: although relations between Labour and the Lib Dems have never been worse, the two parties retain a degree of communication and, behind closed doors, are still working on serious plans to stop no-deal. They are, just about, on speaking terms.

But the jockeying for advantage between Labour and the Lib Dems reveals another truth about the battle to stop no-deal. It isn’t enough to prevent it on October 31. The opponents of no-deal have to do it in a way that stops a no-deal Brexit in this parliament and puts them in a position to win or retain enough seats to keep Johnson from pursuing it in the next.

And that’s the most important Brexit dynamic of all. Opponents of no-deal have to stop every attempt to take the UK out of the EU without a deal. The government only has to succeed once.
[close]
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 03:12:36 pm by Zeb »
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Offline Trada

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24529 on: August 18, 2019, 04:10:31 pm »
 Brexit Secretary signs order to scrap 1972 Brussels Act - ending all EU law in the UK

The Government has signed into law legislation to repeal the Act of Parliament which set in stone Britain’s EU (EEC) membership in 1972.
Published 18 August 2019

From:
    Department for Exiting the European Union



The 1972 Act is the vehicle that sees regulations flow into UK law directly from the EU’s lawmaking bodies in Brussels.

The announcement of the Act’s repeal marks a historic step in returning lawmaking powers from Brussels to the UK. We are taking back control of our laws, as the public voted for in 2016.

The repeal of the European Communities Act 1972 will take effect when Britain formally leaves the EU on October 31.

Speaking after signing the legislation that will crystallise in law the upcoming repeal of the ECA, the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU Steve Barclay said:

    This is a clear signal to the people of this country that there is no turning back - we are leaving the EU as promised on October 31, whatever the circumstances - delivering on the instructions given to us in 2016.

    The votes of 17.4 million people deciding to leave the EU is the greatest democratic mandate ever given to any UK Government. Politicians cannot choose which public votes they wish to respect. Parliament has already voted to leave on 31 October. The signing of this legislation ensures that the EU Withdrawal Act will repeal the European Communities Act 1972 on exit day.

    The ECA saw countless EU regulations flowing directly into UK law for decades, and any government serious about leaving on October 31 should show their commitment to repealing it.

    That is what we are doing by setting in motion that repeal. This is a landmark moment in taking back control of our laws from Brussels.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/brexit-secretary-signs-order-to-scrap-1972-brussels-act-ending-all-eu-law-in-the-uk
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24530 on: August 18, 2019, 04:15:16 pm »
It means nothing in reality.

It the withdrawal date is changed or doesn’t happen then it’s a defunct act..
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24531 on: August 18, 2019, 04:17:08 pm »


Would a Labour Government not have done the same if enacting its form of Brexit?
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24532 on: August 18, 2019, 08:47:20 pm »
Brexit Secretary signs order to scrap 1972 Brussels Act - ending all EU law in the UK

The Government has signed into law legislation to repeal the Act of Parliament which set in stone Britain’s EU (EEC) membership in 1972.
Published 18 August 2019

From:
    Department for Exiting the European Union



The 1972 Act is the vehicle that sees regulations flow into UK law directly from the EU’s lawmaking bodies in Brussels.

The announcement of the Act’s repeal marks a historic step in returning lawmaking powers from Brussels to the UK. We are taking back control of our laws, as the public voted for in 2016.

The repeal of the European Communities Act 1972 will take effect when Britain formally leaves the EU on October 31.

Speaking after signing the legislation that will crystallise in law the upcoming repeal of the ECA, the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU Steve Barclay said:

    This is a clear signal to the people of this country that there is no turning back - we are leaving the EU as promised on October 31, whatever the circumstances - delivering on the instructions given to us in 2016.

    The votes of 17.4 million people deciding to leave the EU is the greatest democratic mandate ever given to any UK Government. Politicians cannot choose which public votes they wish to respect. Parliament has already voted to leave on 31 October. The signing of this legislation ensures that the EU Withdrawal Act will repeal the European Communities Act 1972 on exit day.

    The ECA saw countless EU regulations flowing directly into UK law for decades, and any government serious about leaving on October 31 should show their commitment to repealing it.

    That is what we are doing by setting in motion that repeal. This is a landmark moment in taking back control of our laws from Brussels.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/brexit-secretary-signs-order-to-scrap-1972-brussels-act-ending-all-eu-law-in-the-uk

This relates to what many suspect is the underlying motive for the entire Brexit process, namely to avoid being beholden to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance and Money Laundering regs.

https://www.taxjustice.net/2019/01/23/brexit-and-the-future-of-tax-havens/

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/is-the-anti-tax-avoidance-directive-the-reason-the-rich-want-out-of-eu-1-5669763


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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24533 on: August 18, 2019, 09:35:50 pm »
This whole Barclay signing that Act is red meat to the thicker of the avid Brexit lot and nothing more.

Someone nobody has heard of in a Cabinet role that won’t exist in a few months signing an act that could easily be made obsolete...

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24534 on: August 19, 2019, 11:56:18 am »
Quote
Great look for the Labour party when journalists asking legitimate questions about a caretaker govt, how long Corbyn wants to remain in power, and issues on parliamentary arithmetic, are barely heard over heckles from Corbynistas like it's a football match, not a political event.

https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/status/1163401281597313024

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24537 on: August 19, 2019, 12:22:24 pm »
Is there footage?

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/status/1163409051750981639

Quote
.@andybell5news asks whether Jeremy Corbyn would be willing to step aside and let someone else lead a govt of national unity.

Labour members at the speech try to drown him out, one shouting "what a disgrace!" Others heckling.

Incredible hostility towards journalists.

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1163400481936478208

Such behaviour would be appalling at any time but the timing is especially awful during a speech in which Corbyn called Johnson "Britain's Trump" Still the GOP Labour "moderates" are happy to put him into power.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 12:29:19 pm by ShakaHislop »

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24538 on: August 19, 2019, 12:30:59 pm »
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/status/1163409051750981639

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1163400481936478208

Such behaviour would be appalling at any time but the timing is especially awful during a speech in which Corbyn called Johnson "Britain's Trump" Still the GOP Labour "moderates" are happy to put him into power.

He asked the question twice you fucking blagger.

Hate the way the bastard just kept quiet so his sycophants would step in,hate him,fucking hate him.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24539 on: August 19, 2019, 12:33:10 pm »
Don't know who this is. Don't know which part of the Labour party they're from. But if it's ever revealed who's said it, make sure they're responsible for nothing more important than the choice of biscuits at meetings.

Quote
Labour MPs are drawing up a plan to reverse Brexit AFTER we have left the EU – if Jeremy Corbyn fails in his bid to lead a national unity government.

A unity coalition of anti-Brexit politicians would need to be formed by early September to have any hope of stopping PM Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson crashing the UK out of the EU without a deal on October 31.

But a senior Labour MP said: “ Brexit has torn up the constitutional rulebook.

So just because something is done it doesn’t mean it can’t be undone.

“So once Article 50 is ­triggered we can pass ­legislation to untrigger it.”

Mirror

In the words of Anand Menon, "WTAF".
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24540 on: August 19, 2019, 12:42:24 pm »
Wouldn’t trust them with the biscuits, they’ll mess up the celiacs in the room

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24541 on: August 19, 2019, 12:43:34 pm »
Quote
Journalists booed and heckled as they question Corbyn on Brexit. Not good. Audience reminded to ‘be polite’.

https://twitter.com/C4Ciaran/status/1163400484897644546

Quote
Sad to see journalists being heckled at @jeremycorbyn event.

Journalists have to be able to ask uncomfortable questions!!!

https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1163400770672373760

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24542 on: August 19, 2019, 12:45:38 pm »
Don't know who this is. Don't know which part of the Labour party they're from. But if it's ever revealed who's said it, make sure they're responsible for nothing more important than the choice of biscuits at meetings.

Mirror

In the words of Anand Menon, "WTAF".
Makes perfect sense to try to reverse Brexit after leaving the EU if it can't be done before.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24543 on: August 19, 2019, 12:45:43 pm »
Not the first time politicians have shown themselves to be ignorant of the process and terminology of Brexit. Among the many, many reasons why revoking A50 would be the most sensible action going forward is this lack of understanding. You wouldn't let scientists of engineers or doctors meddle with nature or build structures and systems or carry out procedures when they didn't understand what they were doing. It's irresponsible to go ahead with something that is so poorly understood.

Maybe after revoking all politicians could attend a mandatory course to teach them what leaving the EU entails, and how all the steps work, and what effects they have. Maybe some wouldn't so keen to do it then.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24544 on: August 19, 2019, 12:47:26 pm »
Makes perfect sense to try to reverse Brexit after leaving the EU if it can't be done before.


Quote
“So once Article 50 is ­triggered we can pass ­legislation to untrigger it.”
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24545 on: August 19, 2019, 12:48:30 pm »
https://twitter.com/C4Ciaran/status/1163400484897644546

https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1163400770672373760

You have to laugh at the media pretending to act all shocked at the reaction, when they have been trying to bring down Jeremy none stop for 4 years asks Jeremy a question in a room full of Labour activists who have voted for him twice to be Labour leader ask the same question about 3 times, if he should stand down because the Tories and the Dems don't like him.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24546 on: August 19, 2019, 12:49:00 pm »
Still the GOP Labour "moderates" are happy to put him into power.

No, they/we are not.
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24547 on: August 19, 2019, 12:52:09 pm »
You have to laugh at the media pretending to act all shocked at the reaction, when they have been trying to bring down Jeremy none stop for 4 years asks Jeremy a question in a room full of Labour activists who have voted for him twice to be Labour leader ask the same question about 3 times, if he should stand down because the Tories and the Dems don't like him.


I don't find any of this funny.I used to laugh at people in your little gang but now you all just make my piss boil.


Do you have kids Dave ?
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24548 on: August 19, 2019, 12:52:33 pm »
No, they/we are not.

Well they are via the GoNU route, and they won't move to replace him as leader before a GE that is called without there being a GoNU, in which case they would be campaigning for him to become PM.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 12:54:08 pm by ShakaHislop »

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24549 on: August 19, 2019, 12:53:26 pm »
You have to laugh at the media pretending to act all shocked at the reaction, when they have been trying to bring down Jeremy none stop for 4 years asks Jeremy a question in a room full of Labour activists who have voted for him twice to be Labour leader ask the same question about 3 times, if he should stand down because the Tories and the Dems don't like him.

Journalists asking questions. What is the world coming to? I blame Nick Clegg.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24550 on: August 19, 2019, 12:54:49 pm »
Journalists asking questions. What is the world coming to? I blame Nick Clegg  the Tory Blairites.

Have you not been paying attention ?
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24551 on: August 19, 2019, 12:55:54 pm »
Makes perfect sense to try to reverse Brexit after leaving the EU if it can't be done before.

Aye, there's an 'if' to it doing a lot of work though.

Vernon Bogdanor's ideas are cited in support. When he first proposed them the response from other legal experts (in British law and European) was robust. eg. in a letter to The Times replying to an article by him.

Quote
Sir

Vernon Bogdanor suggests three ways of preventing or reversing a no-deal Brexit (“How the Commons could thwart Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson’s no-deal Brexit”, 9 August). All of them are legally misconceived. Parliament cannot “pass legislation extending the Brexit date”. The most it can do in this respect is require the Prime Minister to seek an extension. Nor would repealing the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 have any relevant effect. It authorised the triggering of Article 50, but its repeal would not halt the withdrawal process. Finally, it is suggested that a Remain Parliament elected after 31 October could, with the EU’s agreement, legislate retrospectively to deem the UK never to have withdrawn. But withdrawal occurs by default operation of EU law on Hallowe’en. Domestic legislation cannot alter that, and the EU Treaties provide no legal basis for retrospectively restoring UK membership. If Parliament is serious about preventing a no-deal Brexit, the only legally watertight way of doing so is the enactment of legislation requiring the Prime Minister to revoke the UK’s Article 50 notification.

Yours

Professor Mark Elliott
Professor of Public Law
University of Cambridge

Elliott's blog, quoting letter

Reversing Brexit after we've left isn't just repealing Article 50 and hoping the EU look the other way but an application to rejoin. Which is a bit more complex.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 12:58:18 pm by Zeb »
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24552 on: August 19, 2019, 01:01:05 pm »
Not the first time politicians have shown themselves to be ignorant of the process and terminology of Brexit. Among the many, many reasons why revoking A50 would be the most sensible action going forward is this lack of understanding. You wouldn't let scientists of engineers or doctors meddle with nature or build structures and systems or carry out procedures when they didn't understand what they were doing. It's irresponsible to go ahead with something that is so poorly understood.

Maybe after revoking all politicians could attend a mandatory course to teach them what leaving the EU entails, and how all the steps work, and what effects they have. Maybe some wouldn't so keen to do it then.
Of course, the proper answer is to have properly educated and informed public, who can then make rational decisions about who they vote into Parliament. This means free, life-long education, and some reasonable restraints upon the media (in particular, a requirement for major shareholders of newspapers to be domicile in the UK, and real consequences for the publication of lies with the intent to sway voting and the like). If some people are going to attack our democratic processes, then democracy has to be defended. I accept that there will be some tricky lines to draw, but I think it can and must be done. As for the Internet: that's a whole lot more tricky.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 01:03:05 pm by Jiminy Cricket »
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24553 on: August 19, 2019, 01:07:16 pm »
Don't know who this is. Don't know which part of the Labour party they're from. But if it's ever revealed who's said it, make sure they're responsible for nothing more important than the choice of biscuits at meetings.

Mirror

In the words of Anand Menon, "WTAF".

Labour MPs are drawing up a plan to reverse Brexit AFTER we have left the EU – if Jeremy Corbyn fails in his bid to lead a national unity government.

A unity coalition of anti-Brexit politicians would need to be formed by early September to have any hope of stopping PM Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson crashing the UK out of the EU without a deal on October 31.

But a senior Labour MP said: “ Brexit has torn up the constitutional rulebook.

So just because something is done it doesn’t mean it can’t be undone.

“So once Article 50 is ­triggered we can pass ­legislation to untrigger it.”

I think it's probably about our legal position, the EU would only recognise the triggering of art 50 if the decision was made following our parliamentary legal process so the assumption is we can only crash out if our parliamentary legal process has been followed, if Parliament instructs Johnson to ask for a extension and he refuses then we are leaving without the consent of our Parliament.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24554 on: August 19, 2019, 01:10:43 pm »
You have to laugh at the media pretending to act all shocked at the reaction, when they have been trying to bring down Jeremy none stop for 4 years asks Jeremy a question in a room full of Labour activists who have voted for him twice to be Labour leader ask the same question about 3 times, if he should stand down because the Tories and the Dems don't like him.

Do you have to laugh?

Maybe naive to ask him confrontational questions in front of his hardcore fans, but they should be asking him these sorts of questions.

Did they ask him to 'stand down', or just accept someone else as temp leader of a unity government?

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24555 on: August 19, 2019, 01:19:55 pm »
I think it's probably about our legal position, the EU would only recognise the triggering of art 50 if the decision was made following our parliamentary legal process so the assumption is we can only crash out if our parliamentary legal process has been followed, if Parliament instructs Johnson to ask for a extension and he refuses then we are leaving without the consent of our Parliament.

Wouldn't the legal default need to be changed to 'revoke Article 50 on 31st October' for that to matter? Otherwise there's nothing there which isn't according to our constitutional arrangements as Parliament agreed to start the Article 50 process and everything which follows is a result of that. Whereas the assumption in all of that from Bogdanor and that Labour MP is that everything fails and doesn't matter because it can be quickly fixed after the fact.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24556 on: August 19, 2019, 01:30:40 pm »
I think it's probably about our legal position, the EU would only recognise the triggering of art 50 if the decision was made following our parliamentary legal process so the assumption is we can only crash out if our parliamentary legal process has been followed, if Parliament instructs Johnson to ask for a extension and he refuses then we are leaving without the consent of our Parliament.
But A50 has already been triggered, in 2017, following proper constitutional processes. Now it's just a countdown, absent any extensions.

We had this conversation some days ago, about whether constitutional processes have any effect on the A50 period elapsing and the treaties automatically ceasing to apply. I don't think we have much clarity on it. On the surface it seems like the government can force a crash-out by refusing to do anything further. I suspect the courts would have to rule on this for it to be any different
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24557 on: August 19, 2019, 01:44:58 pm »
Article 50.

"1.   Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements."

Was the decision to trigger Article 50 made according to Britain's constitutional requirements? Yes. Miller's case established that the bar to clear for that was Parliamentary approval to begin the Article 50 process. If Parliament wants to stop that process, it can legislate to make it so.

"3.   The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period."

Is Britain out of the EU on 31st October should it not agree an extension or revoke Article 50? Yes.

"5.   If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49."

Does Britain want to rejoin after leaving? Put in an application like everybody else.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24558 on: August 19, 2019, 01:45:32 pm »
Do you have to laugh?

Maybe naive to ask him confrontational questions in front of his hardcore fans, but they should be asking him these sorts of questions.

Did they ask him to 'stand down', or just accept someone else as temp leader of a unity government?
There's nothing naive in the press asking obvious questions, at a press event they've organised to get press coverage from. I mean they aren't even confrontational, it's just that Corbyn fans are incredibly thin skinned people.

The organisers knew what they're doing. Only the weirdest of sad little weirdos would be available (and desire) to attend an event like that on a Monday morning.

As ever the saddest of the hardcore corbynistas are immune to spotting irony - a day after Corbyn talks up the importance of the freedom of the press to hold us accountable and to ask tough questions, they are too shit scared of how bad he is to allow their man a voice to answer a basic question. And Corbyn is all too delighted to have a different way to weasel out of the question than doing it by proxy with the press officer shield he had on stage


PS Trada please don't lie like that, worse than a tabloid (more like a weird politics blog posing as journalism). Some people might be foolish enough to trust your version of events. They weren't asking him would he stand down as leader, they asked would he support another leader of a unity government in the event he didn't have enough numbers supporting him.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 01:48:02 pm by Classycara »

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24559 on: August 19, 2019, 01:46:11 pm »
He asked the question twice you fucking blagger.

Hate the way the bastard just kept quiet so his sycophants would step in,hate him,fucking hate him.


I don't find any of this funny.I used to laugh at people in your little gang but now you all just make my piss boil.


Do you have kids Dave ?
Have you thought of quitting this online politics thing ?