Topic: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara

[aw1991]

We need to constantly evolve our system anyway, Klopp has been doing it since he arrived.
You can't stand still teams work you out eventually, City are a perfect case in point.
So for me I'm happy we are not just buying like for like, oh and Thiago is a f**King beast.

I completely agree with you. Just my point was that I don't Barnes have an agenda, he's just spouting nonsense.

[lgvkarlos]

I completely agree with you. Just my point was that I don't Barnes have an agenda, he's just spouting nonsense.

Yep, but I will let him off because he's my fav player of all time.

[lgvkarlos]

We haven't played "Heavy metal" footie since 17/18 season. Clearly these fucking dicks don't know what they're talking about. 

👍

[Mr Benn please?]

Thiago is an unreal player on the ball. He can pretty much do anything on the ball.

Will be interesting to see how he progresses as a single pivot 6 from a defensive perspective. It’s a really hard position to play in our system due to the amount of ground you need to cover defensively. Also Thiago doesn’t have the aerial ability of our No.6 options. Doesn’t mean he can’t succeed in that position it’s just there a few Q marks about how things adapt if he continue in that role.

Personally I’d rather see him as a No.8 in 433 or as part of a 2 in 4231. Think the gives him more licence offensively than the single pivot No.6. Maybe when Matip is fit we’ll see this happen more often.

Yes, I agree, Thiago's role will probably change once we are able to move Hendo and/or Fab back into midfield. There are lots of defensive responsibilities attached to the No 6 role in Klopp's team and I am not sure that this suits Thiago's skill set. I would expect him to play a bit further forward when Matip is back. Or maybe as part of a double pivot as you suggest.

You'd think that ex players might add a bit of context when discussing his performances so far, and that his role may change in the future, but this kind of thing is clearly beyond them.

[Beninger]

Digger:


“Thiago, who was running the game and was the best player in the first-half, I don’t think that necessarily helped the front three.

“With Henderson and Fabinho in midfield, they just get the ball forward and are much more direct for the three strong-running strikers to get on the ball and go on attack, Thiago slows the game down.

“When he slowed the game down in tight areas, that is not Mane’s game, that is not Salah’s game.

“So we’re getting used to a new system, but at the moment it’s not working.

“In my opinion, along with Man City, we’re still favourites [for the title].”

I don’t agree but I don’t think it was an attack on him either. Meh

[Reeves]

I said in the pre match Utd thread that it was a little risky starting Thiago in the sense that we haven't had a long period of success with him. It's a change and I suggested a better player doesn't automatically make a team better, even a world class player, alternatively it takes time for players to gel. I was berated and laughed at by the usual suspects who aren't open to discussion. So I do find it interesting that two ex players are now suggesting my point, which was a general one, may apply to Thiago. They too now seem to be getting berated above but both men have more football experience that anyone on RAWK, are club legends and at least should be listened too rather than laughed at too.

It will be interesting to see how Thiago develops here. We've had a powerhouse midfield who distribute the ball quickly and have long been considered to be the weakest area of the team, certainly the least glamorous. But it's a team sport involving 11 men on the field and it's the sum of the collective that achieves. I agree with most that Thiago (if not Alisson) was the motm on the weekend, but it's the team which needs to perform better with him. Let's hope that happens.

[killer-heels]

I said in the pre match Utd thread that it was a little risky starting Thiago in the sense that we haven't had a long period of success with him. It's a change and I suggested a better player doesn't automatically make a team better, even a world class player, alternatively it takes time for players to gel. I was berated and laughed at by the usual suspects who aren't open to discussion. So I do find it interesting that two ex players are now suggesting my point, which was a general one, may apply to Thiago. They too now seem to be getting berated above but both men have more football experience that anyone on RAWK, are club legends and at least should be listened too rather than laughed at too.

It will be interesting to see how Thiago develops here. We've had a powerhouse midfield who distribute the ball quickly and have long been considered to be the weakest area of the team, certainly the least glamorous. But it's a team sport involving 11 men on the field and it's the sum of the collective that achieves. I agree with most that Thiago (if not Alisson) was the motm on the weekend, but it's the team which needs to perform better with him. Let's hope that happens.

Hamann said in 17/18 that we were going nowhere under Klopp. Should that be taken as advice as well?

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I said in the pre match Utd thread that it was a little risky starting Thiago in the sense that we haven't had a long period of success with him. It's a change and I suggested a better player doesn't automatically make a team better, even a world class player, alternatively it takes time for players to gel. I was berated and laughed at by the usual suspects who aren't open to discussion. So I do find it interesting that two ex players are now suggesting my point, which was a general one, may apply to Thiago. They too now seem to be getting berated above but both men have more football experience that anyone on RAWK, are club legends and at least should be listened too rather than laughed at too.

Being club legends and being former professional footballers doesn't equate to good football knowledge. All football pundits are for the most part former footballers, and there is a very small number of them who actually know what they're talking about. It's one of the reasons why not all footballers are good managers.

There are a number of laughable things said in the media by former players. Take Dan Hutchinson for example, who said that we've been carrying Salah all season.

We'll see how Thiago settles in, but so far he's shown world class ability.

[Samie]

This guy speaks some sense. Listen to him.

We haven't played "Heavy metal" footie since 17/18 season. Clearly these fucking dicks don't know what they're talking about. 

[mickeydocs]

So I do find it interesting that two ex players are now suggesting my point, which was a general one, may apply to Thiago.

Hamann is a really negative pundit when it comes to Klopp and LFC. In general Didi is a shocking pundit.
Glad you are happy that someone agrees with you.

[Reeves]

Hamann is a really negative pundit when it comes to Klopp and LFC. In general Didi is a shocking pundit.
Glad you are happy that someone agrees with you.

For clarity my point is that a world class player does not necessarily improve a team. It is a general point. I’m not saying it applies to Thiago. My own view is we need more time to consider that. However Barnes and Didi do believe it applies to Thiago.

My only frustration was that when I made the general point in the pre match thread it was derided and the piss taken which so often happens on this forum rather than recognizing that a different view may and only may have some merit.

[killer-heels]

For clarity my point is that a world class player does not necessarily improve a team. It is a general point. I’m not saying it applies to Thiago. My own view is we need more time to consider that. However Barnes and Didi do believe it applies to Thiago.

My only frustration was that when I made the general point in the pre match thread it was derided and the piss taken which so often happens on this forum rather than recognizing that a different view may and only may have some merit.

I think the answer is not to sign world class players.

In time we will tell, but their reasoning was mad.

[aw1991]

For clarity my point is that a world class player does not necessarily improve a team.

When I think of examples of that, I think about Coutinho in Barcelona. It almost seems like a signing they made out of vain, rather then tactical reasons, because he didn't really fit into Valverde's tactic and had to compete with Leo Messi. Also, maybe, Ciro Immobile in Dortmund, who struggled to learn the language and fall out with Thomas Tuchel.

I don't see things going that way for Thiago. He's the kind of midfielder we've been crying for since Alonso or peak Gerrard, and someone Klopp has been a long-time admirer of. He also already made a move from Spain to a much different country, Germany, and proved to be successful there. He knows perfect English and is mature enough, so I don't feel like he will struggle to adapt to the team, coach or country like the above examples.

Of course everything could happen, but if the point you are trying to make is that you shouldn't start world class players in important matches until they pick up form, well, in hindsight, if VVD's first match was of equal importance, would you have started him?

[Reeves]

Of course everything could happen, but if the point you are trying to make is that you shouldn't start world class players in important matches until they pick up form, well, in hindsight, if VVD's first match was of equal importance, would you have started him?

No that wasn't my point. Just that there was a little risk to it. I would have started him and he played very well.

Do I recall correctly when Mendietta left a club they went from strength to strength - Valencia? Or was it Deportivo. I don't recall. Coutinho is a good example, maybe Ibrahimovic at Barca too.

[CHOPPER]

He communicates by how much, or by how little, he opens and closes his eyes.

Wide eyes - you've fucked up muchachos

Squinty eyes - lad, you've nailed it

[aw1991]

No that wasn't my point. Just that there was a little risk to it. I would have started him and he played very well.

Do I recall correctly when Mendietta left a club they went from strength to strength - Valencia? Or was it Deportivo. I don't recall. Coutinho is a good example, maybe Ibrahimovic at Barca too.

Mendieta left Valencia before they won the league, but it overlapped with the arrival of Aimar, the legend. Ibra is a good example, but again, it seems like a clash with Guardiola and Messi rather than his ability.

I don't think it was risky to start Thiago, especially as Klopp and the staff can see him in training. I think it's riskier not to start with him, honestly.

[Reeves]

Mendieta left Valencia before they won the league, but it overlapped with the arrival of Aimar, the legend. Ibra is a good example, but again, it seems like a clash with Guardiola and Messi rather than his ability.

I don't think it was risky to start Thiago, especially as Klopp and the staff can see him in training. I think it's riskier not to start with him, honestly.

Maybe risky is the wrong word. I guess there's risk with every player. I suppose what I meant is we didn't have any real evidence base i.e. a run of games where we know he'll fit.  I too would have started him, just that we didn't know how it'd go, whereas say with Wijnaldum we have a better idea of how he'll play and the affect that will have on the team performance. More of an unknown rather than risk perhaps.

Mendietta - Yes that's it - I had it in mind Valencia sold him as their best player and then won the league.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

The reason Ibrahimovic didn't work at Barca is because Messi wanted to play as the #9 [and who can blame him], it's not like Ibrahimovic could play in a different position. He score 21 goals in 45 matches, it's not like he dropped off the face of the earth.

[DTRed]

But here's the thing, I don't think he's saying Thiago is putting sub-par performances, rather that his style of play contradicts our system. It's wrong but not some vile criticism thrown at us.

This was my take on it.  He simply says that it was ok in the first half when Thiago was playing well as we were still in control. I get the impression Digger is just saying a change should have been made in the second half when Thiago wasn't so dominant.

[Ghost Town]

I agree, we should definitely buy world class players and not play them.


(Jesus wept!)

[Ghost Town]

I was berated and laughed at by the usual suspects who aren't open to discussion.

That's not why you get berated and laughed at 

[Suareznumber7]

Mel Reddy with a good article about Thiago. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/liverpool/thiago-alcantara-manchester-united-possession-passing-b1789736.html

Since the goalless draw with Manchester United at Anfield, it has been curious to discover that Liverpool are not a team who enjoy control of the ball for large stretches, and as such, Thiago is out of place in their midfield.

This would be the same team that - checks notes - are second in the possession stakes across Europe’s top five leagues this season, averaging 60.6 per cent with only Barcelona’s 61.3 per cent superior.

It would also be the team that, while storming to a first league title in 30 years, were only behind Manchester City in lionising the ball in England. Liverpool were sixth overall on the continent behind the expected likes of Barca, Bayern Munich and Paris Saint-Germain.


In 2018-19, Pep Guardiola’s side were again the only side with higher possession in the country than the Merseysiders, who were trumping dominate teams like Real Madrid and Juventus in this regard.

During 2017-18, Liverpool had 60.5 per cent of the ball and in the season prior, that figure was 62 per cent.

The only time the Premier League champions have been out of the top eight for possession in Europe during Jurgen Klopp’s tenure was across the 2015-16 campaign, with the German taking charge in October and spending his opening months laying down the foundations of counter-pressing and general organisation without the ball.

Liverpool’s transitions had spooked opposition, who reacted by defending deeper. And one of Klopp’s greatest challenges and subsequent successes at Anfield was ensuring the evolution from a blitz machine to a controlling unit, capable of winning in “500 different ways.”

Liverpool are very much a side that has the majority of the ball in nearly every fixture across all competitions and very much needed a passer with exceptional range using either feet as opponents looked to increasingly stifle the creativity of Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Roberston.

Klopp’s men would funnel the ball from the heart of defence out to the fullbacks, who would feed the front three. The midfield task of Fabinho, Jordan Henderson and Gini Wijnaldum were to chiefly be the steel: covering the advances of Alexander-Arnold and Robertson, preventing counters and recycling possession.

That Thiago’s skillset widely differs from those three is not a criticism, it is the whole point. Liverpool required variation in creativity, reducing the emphasis of building from the fullbacks and adding a progressive, pressure-resistant, world-class player to enhance their penetration from the centre of the pitch.


Liverpool’s threat from midfield was indirect and the presence of Thiago totally transforms that. As Klopp analysed: “He demands rhythm. He can obviously create and use space for other players, all these kinds of things.

“First touch incredible; vision incredible; passing pretty good! But is quick as well. Work-rate great. His numbers were absolutely special last year in Germany as well, most steals, ball recoveries and all these kinds of things; most passes.”

The intelligence and variety in Thiago’s play is outstanding beyond just the catalogue of passes. The way he can shift his balance or contort his body to create space for himself or disguise what he’s going to do with the ball has already been a highlight.

The 29-year-old is a line-breaker, resisting the option to play horizontally or backwards. He is also smart and disciplined with his positioning, so much so that Hansi Flick entrusted him to protect Bayern’s defence as they became European champions last season.

The accusation that Thiago slows the game or is not direct enough is in complete contradiction to the reality of his performances for Liverpool, where barring the defeat at Southampton, he has been the best player on the park.

Protecting the defence, linking the play, switching it and creating chances have all been boxed.

Complaining about Thiago's touches - a game high 122 - against United when the hosts had 65.8 per cent of the ball is also bewildering.

Was the deep-lying playmaker, who made the most passes in the opposition half, not meant to take control?

He was operating in a different realm to everyone else at Anfield, backed up by the stats, but more importantly the eyes. Liverpool’s first-half dominance against United was largely designed by Thiago and the failure to get a goal was down to the front three’s desperation to score, snatching at everything instead of being composed with the decisive 10 per cent in the final third.

The offensive dip of the champions is owed to multiple reasons, not least the struggle of the entire system to work effectively without the build-up play at the back from the injured senior centre-halves and the psychological impact of that as well as the unavailability of the in-form Diogo Jota.

It is not certainly not on Thiago, who is their greatest tool at the moment to try and remedy their balance.

The only mark against the midfielder is through no fault of his own. His starts have been limited to three due to testing positive for Covid and a serious knee problem picked up in October’s Merseyside derby.

When Thiago plays, it is a masterclass in the art of football and a true understanding of how each pass, each decision can alter its flow.

Those who can’t see it are poorer for it.

[MNAA]

That's not why you get berated and laughed at 

You’re mean ....


😅😁

[goalrushatgoodison]

The Thiago we have seen in his recent appearances reminds me of a first team player who has dropped down to the reserves to get his sharpness back after an injury. Everybody can see he is a level ahead of everyone else on the field. This guy is going to be on a different planet when he is gets up to full tilt.

[wemmick]

He is not even up to full speed yet. He will get better over the next month if he stays fit. Unbelievable really. 

[SteveLFC]

Maybe risky is the wrong word. I guess there's risk with every player. I suppose what I meant is we didn't have any real evidence base i.e. a run of games where we know he'll fit.  I too would have started him, just that we didn't know how it'd go, whereas say with Wijnaldum we have a better idea of how he'll play and the affect that will have on the team performance. More of an unknown rather than risk perhaps.

Mendietta - Yes that's it - I had it in mind Valencia sold him as their best player and then won the league.

I get the point you are making. It's true that when Coutinho left us, we improved. It doesn't make sense but it is true. For me, the question is, did all our other players step up when he left? I believe it is about balance for world class players. Its about our other players tuning into Thiago's way of playing and about them expecting the unexpected from him, which he is great at... Those inch perfect, no-look passes in behind a defence. Our front three need to tune into that. I think we are so used to our goals being assisted from Trent and Robbo that it maybe that it is going to take time for our front three to be on their heels ready for that killer ball from Thiago in the same way.

[Alf]

Time will tell on Thiago. He needs to get used to playing with our other players & they need to get used to playing with him. We've had 2/3 of our 1st choice midfield from the last 2 years in central defence against Southampton & Man Utd. That shouldn't be forgotten.Comparisons to Coutinho are unfair in my view. The front 3 became the focal point our team after he left and we become more ruthless in transitioning play from defence to attack. We've not seen enough evidence either way to suggest Thiago has changed things.

[rushyman]

I’ve just popped my head in here and cannot believe the rhetoric

He’s fucking class. Didi chats shit on repeat

Dunno what some in here are on about. He starts every game for me

[The Test]

Juan Sebastien Veron's a good example of a "sure thing" going spectacularly wrong. But I just don't see it with Thiago. It may take a couple of months but I'm 99% sure he's going to get up to speed and then dominate the league. He's too clever not to... players like him tend to learn how to use the "speed" of the league to their advantage pretty quickly.

[Clint Eastwood]

Signed Thiago, to play him like Mascherano.

Meanwhile Gini’s higher up the pitch holding the ball up all game. Seems an obvious switch.

[Cozzymoto]

Signed Thiago, to play him like Mascherano.

Meanwhile Gini’s higher up the pitch holding the ball up all game. Seems an obvious switch.

To be fair, I don't think he'd be playing there had Fab and Hendo not shifted to defence.

[Clint Eastwood]

Still. I’d rather have him higher up the pitch than Gini.

[AndyMuller]

Why was he so deep in the second half?

[robgomm]

If anyone takes Didi's view seriously they need to understand: he's absolutely and impossibly clueless. Nice fella though.

Thiago is class. He keeps the ball moving - the opposite of that which he's accused of - and he looks for between the line passes. Our play slows down out wide.

[gazzalfc]

I think if Henderson or Fabinho are in midfield he wouldn't be playing so deep.

Shaq and Gini just cant do that job in midfield so Thiago has to do it. It's a shame because he offers so much more in attack but until we get a fit squad we wont see it.

[HeartAndSoul]

Genuinely didn't think he was coming here to play as a holding midfielder.

[KevLFC]

Doesn't half go into tackles the lad.

[Guz-kop]

I think if Henderson or Fabinho are in midfield he wouldn't be playing so deep.

Shaq and Gini just cant do that job in midfield so Thiago has to do it. It's a shame because he offers so much more in attack but until we get a fit squad we wont see it.

I would just play milner sitting and have thiago and gini ahead. Not against quick midfielders but something like today would've better imo

[Crosby Nick]

He must wonder if anyone wants to play football against him.

[Ghost Town]

Lad must be wondering what he's got himself into...still, it's up to him to try and help change it.