Author Topic: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border  (Read 26502 times)

Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #280 on: May 19, 2018, 08:05:01 pm »
Jeb, you seem a balanced poster.

Can you explain how such a high proportion of those killed were Hamas members?

I find it difficult to believe that even highly trained snipers can positively identify so many members of a terrorist organisation with such certainty, particularly as there were burning tyres and clouds of tear gas.

 Face recognition software with higher definition than that used by the Met Police?

I would imagine it is because Hamas members are the ones that led the charge t the fence and were the ones targeting the soldiers. I doubt that Israel cared less who they were, as they were acting quickly in a combat situation.

If that's the case the bodies would be close to the fence.

If, and that's a big if, there is an independent enquiry that would become clear.

We don't need an enquiry to identify the dead. Hamas has done that for us. They have very quickly given up on the charade that it was an innocent protest, safe in the knowledge that the world doesn't care.
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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #281 on: May 19, 2018, 08:05:43 pm »
Err someone needs to tell him that there is no occupation of Gaza. This is a simple fact .
Then why does Israel control its airspace and territorial waters and the crossings?
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #282 on: May 19, 2018, 08:08:17 pm »
The elephant in the room is where all of the Palestinians all the Arab regimes refuse to integrate as citizens originated from.



That's not the elephant in the room. The Palestinian refugee issue is extremely well documented. I recommend reading Benny Morris The Birth of The Palestinian Refugee Problem.

The elephant in the room is that the Palestinian refugees have been used as a political tool by the Arab regimes since 1948.
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #283 on: May 19, 2018, 08:09:56 pm »
Then why does Israel control its airspace and territorial waters and the crossings?

So by your definition Egypt also occupies Gaza? After all, Egypt's border crossing is far more sealed than Israel's.
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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #284 on: May 19, 2018, 08:16:20 pm »
So by your definition Egypt also occupies Gaza? After all, Egypt's border crossing is far more sealed than Israel's.

I didnt say it was an occupation either, just asking a question?

Egypt doesnt constantly murder Palestinians.
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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #285 on: May 19, 2018, 08:20:02 pm »
If anyone wants to read up on anything related to this it's best to make sure the author's neither an Israeli nor a Palestinian.  :-X

Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #286 on: May 19, 2018, 08:26:08 pm »
If anyone wants to read up on anything related to this it's best to make sure the author's neither an Israeli nor a Palestinian.  :-X

If you say so.
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Offline vagabond

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #287 on: May 19, 2018, 08:29:34 pm »
This also has zero to do with Jerusalem.

Yeah I'm sure the US embassy opening in Jerusalem, lending muscle to Israel's occupation, has nothing to do with it.
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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #288 on: May 19, 2018, 08:31:02 pm »
If you say so.

Nothing personal, simply too much emotion on both sides.

Offline Djozer

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #289 on: May 19, 2018, 08:31:47 pm »
If you say so.
Do you think there are many balanced voices on either side?

Seems like a horrible situation to me. Hamas are a nasty bunch, but the Israeli response to any flare up always seems ridiculously heavy handed.

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #290 on: May 19, 2018, 08:33:00 pm »

Hahahaha

This also has zero to do with Jerusalem.

Hahahaha indeed.

Good to know that nothing you post is worth reading because you cannot even be honest.

Zero to do with Jerusalem fook me silly.
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #291 on: May 19, 2018, 08:34:42 pm »
Yeah I'm sure the US embassy opening in Jerusalem, lending muscle to Israel's occupation, has nothing to do with it.

Glad we agree.
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #292 on: May 19, 2018, 08:39:47 pm »
Do you think there are many balanced voices on either side?


Well there is a vast spectrum of scholarship and political opinion in Israel. You should read up on the 'New Historians' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians

Further, i would add that if you want to understand the region, then absolutely the people you should be reading are Israelis and Palestinians (especially Israelis as we have a free press and utterly fantastic scholarship). The notion that you shouldn't listen to the actual people involved in the conflict is just as absurd as the Labour Party not inviting Jews to a discussion on Anti-Semitism :)
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Offline Djozer

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #293 on: May 19, 2018, 08:45:29 pm »
Well there is a vast spectrum of scholarship and political opinion in Israel. You should read up on the 'New Historians' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians

Further, i would add that if you want to understand the region, then absolutely the people you should be reading are Israelis and Palestinians (especially Israelis as we have a free press and utterly fantastic scholarship). The notion that you shouldn't listen to the actual people involved in the conflict is just as absurd as the Labour Party not inviting Jews to a discussion on Anti-Semitism :)
Cheers, I'll have a look. I don't doubt that the best sources on Israel and Palestine will be Israelis and Palestinians, it's just that I imagine there will be very few unbiased opinions out there, it being such a contentious subject. It's definitely an area I don't understand as well as I should though, so I genuinely appreciate your suggestions. I really hope that some form of resolution can be reached.

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #294 on: May 19, 2018, 08:48:47 pm »
Does Benny Morris even believe what he wrote in the book you mentioned anymore? https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-does-benny-morris-really-want-to-recant-his-words-1.5451044

Your press and scholarship (and the Palestinian side's) suffer from the same fundamental defect that you have demonstrated in the past few exchanges, putting on a facade while being proper wound up inside and holding ironclad opinions.

Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #295 on: May 19, 2018, 08:49:02 pm »
Cheers, I'll have a look. I don't doubt that the best sources on Israel and Palestine will be Israelis and Palestinians, it's just that I imagine there will be very few unbiased opinions out there, it being such a contentious subject. It's definitely an area I don't understand as well as I should though, so I genuinely appreciate your suggestions. I really hope that some form of resolution can be reached.

Come visit.

Easyjet flies Manchester to Tel Aviv twice a week. You can spend a few days in Jerusalem and i have a Palestinian friend who can take you on a great tour of Palestine.

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #296 on: May 19, 2018, 08:57:00 pm »
To be clear, of course you go local for specific information for any setting, that goes without saying. But when it comes to assessing the merit of any issue though, going with a guy who comes with a certain distance is always better than people who have lived that issue for years and years.

Offline Djozer

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #297 on: May 19, 2018, 09:08:48 pm »
Come visit.

Easyjet flies Manchester to Tel Aviv twice a week. You can spend a few days in Jerusalem and i have a Palestinian friend who can take you on a great tour of Palestine.
Genuinely appreciate the offer mate, and one day I may just take you up on that. I know some people who spent time in Israel and loved it, and Jerusalem fascinates me. So much history in one place, it must be quite incredible. My mate even had what he reckons might have been a form of 'Jerusalem Syndrome,' and he's been pretty much an atheist since childhood. Mad shit.

It's a shame that religious and political forces cause such conflict, because I'm sure the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians are lovely, normal people who would just like to get on with their lives.

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #298 on: May 19, 2018, 09:37:12 pm »


Further, i would add that if you want to understand the region, then absolutely the people you should be reading are Israelis and Palestinians (especially Israelis as we have a free press and utterly fantastic scholarship). The notion that you shouldn't listen to the actual people involved in the conflict is just as absurd as the Labour Party not inviting Jews to a discussion on Anti-Semitism :)

Yet you cant answer questions about why Israel controls Gaza.
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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #299 on: May 19, 2018, 10:23:01 pm »
Come visit.

Easyjet flies Manchester to Tel Aviv twice a week. You can spend a few days in Jerusalem and i have a Palestinian friend who can take you on a great tour of Palestine.

I took that flight in 1989 (1st Intifada). I spent about 5 months on a Moshav (in the Negev desert) and a Kibbutz (on the edge of Lake Galilee) . I also spent a while in Old Jerusalem, a truly amazing city. I knew nothing of the situation in Israeli or Palestine when I arrived. I spent time with both Israelis and Palestinians.
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #300 on: May 20, 2018, 04:39:15 am »

Zero to do with Jerusalem fook me silly.

This is a total misinterpretation of the violence.

The demonstrations were in the context of the so-called Great March of Return, a six-week campaign launched by Hamas and other Palestinian groups. The organizers said that the march had three main goals: to achieve the "right of return" for Palestinian refugees and their descendants so that they would be able to move to Israel, to thwart Trump's yet-to-be-announced plan for peace in the Middle East, and to return the Palestinian issue to the top of the world's agenda. You really only need to listen to their own words.

The "Great March of Return" demonstrations began in late March and reached their peak on May 14, one day before the Gregorian day marking Israel's 70th anniversary, which the Palestinians call Nakba Day (Catastrophe Day). So the demonstrations that took place on the day of the inauguration of the US embassy in Jerusalem were in the context of the "Great March of Return," and not specifically planned for the embassy move. Obviously the Trump administration and the Netanyahu Govt. were utterly stupid to have the embassy opening on that day.

The demonstrations that took place that day were no different from the previous weekly protests orchestrated by Hamas and its allies in the Gaza Strip.

If the protests in the Gaza Strip were against the US embassy inauguration ceremony, what were 50 Hamas members doing trying to infiltrate the border with Israel? Were they on their way to holding a peaceful protest against the Trump administration? Were they on their way to stage a peaceful sit-in strike outside the offices of the United Nations in Jerusalem?

The idea that Hamas is concerned about the US embassy move is a sick joke. All one needs to do is to listen very carefully to what Hamas is saying, namely that its struggle is to "liberate all of Palestine, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River." Hamas is saying that the protests it has been orchestrating are aimed at enabling millions of Palestinians to flood Israel and turn it into an Islamic state with a Jewish minority. Hamas could not care less about the location of the embassy. Hamas wants "Palestine" and "Palestine" in its entirety. Hamas terrorists were on their way to kill Jews. They were on their way to infiltrate Israeli communities near the border with the Gaza Strip. Even the terrorists did not say that they were protesting the embassy relocation. This is the inconvenient truth that people seem so unable to accept.

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #301 on: May 20, 2018, 06:40:13 am »


Still avoiding  the difficult questions then lad?
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #302 on: May 20, 2018, 09:34:40 am »
Still avoiding  the difficult questions then lad?

Of course he is.

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #303 on: May 21, 2018, 12:41:17 pm »
How long before Israel start gazing at Lebanon,they have been shelling Iranians positions in Syria and how long before they do the same to Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Israel wants that Litani river so bad and that's the whole reason Hezbollah has been camped in the southern border since Hezbollah kicked out Israel nearly 2 decades ago.

When Israel occupied Southern Lebanon,Israel diverted the river to irrigate Northern Israel for 22 years.

In the 2006 war they told all Lebanese to leave houses and move north of the river,that was their last attempt at getting the Litani again.

Southern Lebanon is going to be the next flash point,Israel can do anything they want  with the Trump admin and they will use Southern Lebanon as a pretext of lies about Hezbollah/Iran/Syria to get that rich abundant water source.
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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #304 on: May 21, 2018, 02:12:51 pm »
Southern Lebanon is going to be the next flash point,Israel can do anything they want  with the Trump admin and they will use Southern Lebanon as a pretext of lies about Hezbollah/Iran/Syria to get that rich abundant water source.

You reckon? I don't see anything beyond the Syria conflict for a long while.

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #305 on: May 21, 2018, 03:04:04 pm »
Southern Lebanon is going to be the next flash point.

I’m afraid you might be right.

Hamas are irrational and stupid, but Hezbollah are even worse. Plus they are essentially an extension of the Iranian state and serve to do the bidding of Tehran.

We’ve seen how vicious - and militarily effective - they have been in Syria where they have supported the autocracy and murdered scores of thousands of Syrians. And, of course, they hate Jews even more than they do their Arab enemies and will almost certainly start firing their missiles and rockets into Israel before long.

I really hope this doesn’t happen but I think it will.
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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #306 on: May 21, 2018, 04:25:00 pm »
No chance of southern Lebanon being the next flash point, Hizbollah are too powerful a defensive force. In 2006 Israel tried to invade Lebanon to destroy Hizbollah, they lost 120 soldiers, nearly 2000 wounded, as well as 50 civilians killed by Hizbollah rockets fired into Israel, they also lost 30 + tanks and helicopters and prime minister Olmert got booted out, for all their fire power, they smashed Lebanon to bits,  , but only made  it 50 yards up one hill and stalled in one whole month of fighting . The whole operation was a disaster.
That front has 2 well drilled sides either sides of the border, both have too much to lose by crossing it. Hamas are no Hizbollah.
Syria is a vacuum being filled by Iran, there are thousands of Hizbollah fighters there already, working jointly with the Russians. That alliance is very worrying for Israel and the US and prompted the recent nuclear deal cancellation, this story will run and run. Syria is the next battle ground, if it isn’t already one.
In the meantime, the Palestinians will keep suffering. 

Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #307 on: May 21, 2018, 06:56:37 pm »
How long before Israel start gazing at Lebanon,they have been shelling Iranians positions in Syria and how long before they do the same to Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Israel wants that Litani river so bad and that's the whole reason Hezbollah has been camped in the southern border since Hezbollah kicked out Israel nearly 2 decades ago.

When Israel occupied Southern Lebanon,Israel diverted the river to irrigate Northern Israel for 22 years.

In the 2006 war they told all Lebanese to leave houses and move north of the river,that was their last attempt at getting the Litani again.

Southern Lebanon is going to be the next flash point,Israel can do anything they want  with the Trump admin and they will use Southern Lebanon as a pretext of lies about Hezbollah/Iran/Syria to get that rich abundant water source.

Errr we don't need the water from the Litani river. We have desalination and water reclamation, technology that incidentally is changing the lives of hundreds of millions of people worldwide.


https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/how-israel-became-a-water-surplus-nation-1.62301
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/israel-proves-the-desalination-era-is-here/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/with-desalination-a-once-unthinkable-water-surplus-is-possible/
https://thenextweb.com/syndication/2017/07/05/desalination-nation-israel-helping-world-fight-water-shortage/

Perhaps, just perhaps, Israel doesn't like having a terrorist organization with 120,000 rockets on it's northern border
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #308 on: May 21, 2018, 07:02:08 pm »
I found this article quite apt for these boards :

Why do you hate Israel ?


The question that hangs over the left, and which no one can answer.


Why do you hate Israel more than any other nation? Why does Israel anger you more than any other nation does? Why do Israel’s military activities aggravate you and disturb your conscience and provoke you to outbursts of street protesting or Twitter-fury in a way that no other state’s military activities do? These are the questions that hang darkly over today’s so-called progressives. Which eat away at their self-professed moral authority, at their claims to be practitioners of fairness and equality. They are the questions to which no satisfactory answer has ever been given. So they niggle and fester, expertly avoided, or unconvincingly batted away, a black question mark over much of the modern left: why Israel?

The question has returned in recent days, following violent clashes on the border between the Gaza Strip and Israel. Like clockwork, with a predictability that now feels just mostly depressing, these clashes that resulted in the deaths of many protesting Palestinians magically awoke an anti-imperialist, anti-war instinct among Western observers that was notably, stubbornly, mysteriously dormant when Turkey recently laid waste to the Kurdish town of Afrin or during any of the recent Western-backed Saudi barbarism visited upon the benighted people of Yemen. A member of the IDF raises his gun and suddenly the right-minded of the West switch off Spotify, take to Twitter, engage their emotional fury, and say: ‘NO.’ Their political lethargy lifts, their placards are dusted down, and they remember that war and violence are bad. They even go on to the streets, as people did in London and across Europe in recent days. This is evil, they declaim, and that question rises up again, silently, awkwardly, usually ignored: why is this evil but Turkey’s sponsored slaughter of hundreds of Kurdish civilians and fighters in Afrin was not? Why Israel?


Israeli activity doesn’t only elicit a response from these campaigners where Turkish or Saudi or Syrian activity does not – it always elicits a visceral response. The condemnation of Israel is furious and intense, the language used about it is dark, strikingly different to the language used about any other state that engages in military activity. Israel is never just wrong or heavy-handed or a country that ‘foolishly rushes to war’, as protesters would say about Tony Blair and Iraq, and very occasionally about Obama and Libya, and, if they were pressed for an opinion, would probably say about the Turks and the Saudis, too. No, Israel is genocidal. It is a terrorist state, a rogue state, an apartheid state. It is mad, racist, ideological. It doesn’t do simple militarism – it does ‘bloodletting’; it derives some kind of pleasure from killing civilians, including children. As one observer said during the clashes at the Gaza border, Israel kills those whose only crime is to have been ‘born to non-Jewish mothers’. Israel hates. This Jewish State is the worst state, the most bloodthirsty state.

Following the deaths of 18 Palestinians on the Gaza border, Glenn Greenwald denounced Israel as an ‘apartheid, rogue, terrorist state’, like a man reaching for as many ways as possible to say ‘evil’. One left-wing group says Israel’s behaviour at the Gaza border confirms it is enforcing a ‘slow genocide’ on the Palestinians. The ‘scale of the bloodletting’ is horrifying, says one radical writer. Israel loves to draw blood. A writer for Al-Jazeera says the clashes are a reminder that Israel has turned Gaza into ‘the biggest concentration camp on the surface of the Earth’, and that question, that unanswerable, or certainly unanswered, question, rises up once more: why is Gaza a concentration camp but Yemen, which has been subject to a barbaric sea, land and air blockade since 2015 that has resulted in devastating shortages of food and medicine, causing famine and the rampant spread of diseases like cholera, is not? By any measurement, the blockade on Yemen is worse than any restrictions that have been placed on Gaza. People in Gaza are not starving to death or contracting cholera in their tens of thousands, as Yemenis are. Yet Gaza is a concentration camp while Yemen, when they can be bothered to comment on it, is a war zone. Israel is agitated against, Saudi Arabia is not. Saudi Arabia makes war; Israel commits ‘genocide’, it builds ‘concentration camps’, it carries out ‘terrorism’. And they should know better, these Jews. That is the subtext, always: the victims of genocide turned genocidal maniacs.


Across the mainstream, Israeli activity is always treated differently. The Gaza clashes were frontpage news in a way that the worse horrors of Afrin just days and weeks earlier rarely were. Left-leaning politicians, including leaders of the UK Labour Party, tweet stern condemnations of Israel’s shootings on the Gaza border where they were silent, or at least more restrained, in relation to Turkey and the Kurds. Academic and cultural institutions boycott Israel where they do not boycott Turkey, or China, or Russia, or America and Britain for that matter, which have done their fair share of bad things – ‘bloodletting’? – in the Middle East in recent years. That only Israel is boycotted by the self-styled guardians of the West’s moral conscience, by our cultural and academic elites, constantly communicates the idea that Israel is different. It is worse. It stands above every other state in terms of wickedness and hatred and war. BDS institutionalises the idea that Israel is alien among the nations, a pock among countries, the lowest, foulest state. It is a bleak irony that BDS activists holler ‘apartheid!’ or ‘racist!’ at Israel while subjecting Israel to a kind of cultural apartheid and contributing to the ugly view of this state, this Jewish state, as the maddest state, the state most deserving of your anger and even your hatred.

There have been attempts to answer that question, that looming question of ‘Why Israel?’, especially following recent controversies over the expression of anti-Semitic ideas in left-wing circles, including in Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Party. But the answers have been spectacularly unconvincing. Israel deserves Western campaigners’ special fury because it is backed by Western leaders, our leaders, they say. So is Turkey. And the Saudis. Israel’s repression of the Palestinians has been going on for a very long time and so it feels like a grave injustice we must address, they argue. And Turkey’s war against the Kurds hasn’t been going on for a long time? Israel punishes Palestinians culturally and politically and that makes it a special case, they claim, as they throw around terms like ‘apartheid’ to describe life in and between Israel and the Palestinian Territories and in the process distort the reality of what happens there. But again there is Turkey, disrupting their thin, self-serving narrative. Turkey genuinely seeks to strip away the cultural heritage and language and aspiration to independence of the Kurds, and on that they say nothing, or certainly little. They don’t gather outside theatres in London when Turkish actors perform there. They don’t shout down Turkish violinists at the Proms. They don’t demand that Turkish academics and their books be expelled from American and British universities. No, only Israelis. Only them. Only those people.

There is no getting away from it: the thing that is really unique about Israel is how much they hate it. Israel stands out not because of what it does, but because of how they talk about what it does: as strange, bloody, vindictive, disruptive, genocidal, this ‘gang of thugs indoctrinated by an ideology that dehumanises children’, as the Al-Jazeera writer described Israel this week. Say it, why don’t you. They are fascists. The victims of fascism now practise fascism. This is the sentiment behind much of the myopic focus on Israel: that the Jews now do to others what people once did to them. Even though actually they don’t. Even though they do nothing that bears even the remotest resemblance to the Nazis’ effort to exterminate the Jews. And yet on anti-Israel demos, placards compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto, people implore the Jews to remember their own suffering, Israeli flags with swastikas on them are held up. This is not anti-imperialist, it is anti-Jewish; it is the gravest insult to say that Jews or the Jewish State are the new Nazis, and they know it is a grave insult.

The treatment of Israel as uniquely colonialist, as an exemplar of racism, as the commissioner of the kind of crimes against humanity we thought we had left in the darkest moments of the 20th century, really captures what motors today’s intense fury with Israel above all other nations: it has been turned into a whipping boy for the sins of Western history, a punch-bag for those who feel shame or discomfort with the political and military excesses of their own nations’ pasts and who now register that shame and discomfort by raging against what they view, hyperbolically, as a lingering expression of that past: Israel and its treatment of the Palestinians. They heap every horror of the past on to Israel, hence their denunciation of it as ideological, racist, imperialistic, even genocidal – in their eyes, and courtesy of their campaigning, Israel comes to symbolise the crimes of yesteryear. So when 18 Palestinians are killed, it is not simply a tragedy, it is not simply excessive, it is certainly not something that requires serious, nuanced discussion, including about the role of Hamas in organising such protests in order to shore up international sympathy for Palestinian victimhood. No, it is an act that reminds us of the entire history of colonialism and racial chauvinism and of concentration camps and genocide, because this is what Israel now reminds people of; they project their post-colonial guilt and scepticism about the Western project on to this tiny state in the Middle East.

The rage against Israel is actually more therapeutic than political. It is not about seriously addressing the reality of life and conflict in the Middle East, but rather is driven by the narrow needs of Western observers and activists for an entity they can fume against in order to give release to their own sense of historical and political disorientation. But the impact of this therapeutic rage, this almost primal-scream therapy against Israel, is dire. It contributes to the growing conspiratorial view that certain people, you know who they are, have a uniquely disruptive influence on international affairs, political life, and everyday safety and security. ‘It isn’t anti-Semitic to criticise Israel’, observers say, and they are absolutely right. Every nation state must be open to criticism and protest. But if you only criticise Israel, or you criticise Israel disproportionately to every other state, and if your criticism of Israel is loaded with Holocaust imagery and talk of bloodletting, and if you boycott Israel and no other nation, and if you flatter the dark imaginings of the far right and Islamists and conspiracy theorists by fretting over a super powerful Israel Lobby, and if the sight of an Israeli violinist is too much for you to stomach, then, I’m sorry, that has the hallmarks of anti-Semitism.

www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/why-do-you-hate-israel/21297#.WwMIl0iFPIU
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #309 on: May 21, 2018, 07:20:25 pm »
Those are some pretty good questions. And it was certainly depressing to see how little concern there was over the starvation and eventual destruction of the Palestinian people in Yarmouk by Assad and the Syrian forces 3 years ago.

To be fair, many people criticise Israel and turn a blind eye to atrocities of far worse regimes because they retain a belief that Israel, as a democracy, should be held to higher standards. There's something in this, I think, even though that line of reasoning can give a free pass to all sorts of beastly governments. More worryingly, however, it flirts with a type of racism. (Jews, like Europeans and Americans, are capable of higher ethical standards than Arabs and Africans etc. We shouldn't expect too much of the latter groups etc).

But it's also fair to say that many people fixate on Israeli crimes, while ignoring those of every other government and regime, because they simply don't like Jews.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 07:23:19 pm by Yorkykopite »
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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #310 on: May 21, 2018, 07:21:31 pm »
Just because people hate the actions they carry out doesn't mean that they hate Israel,there is an in between you know.



But if that's the narrative you want to go with have at it.
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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #311 on: May 21, 2018, 07:26:44 pm »
Just because people hate the actions they carry out doesn't mean that they hate Israel,there is an in between you know.


Good. I'm happy to talk to people who don't hate Israel, like yourself. I draw the line of course at talking to people who hate the place and want to see it disappear, just as I draw the line at talking to people who hate France and want to see it disappear. Such folks are obviously bonkers.

So there's probably less dividing us than you think. Both of us deplore the recent actions of the IDF and the Netanyahu government. But we both are happy to see Israel exist.
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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #312 on: May 22, 2018, 12:53:42 am »
Killing less palestinians than others is hardly a defence.

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #313 on: May 22, 2018, 07:02:16 am »
Re article posted by Jedediah - I don't know whether I'd be relying on Brendan O'Neill for any insight to complex problems. This is a man who claims that gay marriage leads to authoritarianism and is skeptical of environmentalism.

He's basically a leftist who is somehow become a right wing libertarian, and this screed is typical of his grievance against leftist politics.

 He seems to think all leftists are one-track and not capable of thinking through complex problems. It's possible to be critical of both Israel and the situations in places like Yemen and Turkey.

Also, if there is to be some type of genuine dialogue, maybe steer away from articles that use the phrase "Palestinian victimhood" seriously.

Also what is a "cultural apartheid"?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 07:04:33 am by Mimi »
"And Israeli aggression will continue unabated. BDS. Armed struggle. Peace talks. Protests. Tweets. Social media. Poetry. All are terror in Israel’s books.” Refaat Alareer
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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #314 on: May 22, 2018, 08:16:10 am »
Killing less palestinians than others is hardly a defence.


That’s right. It’s not a defence of Israeli actions and no one is pretending it is. They remain reprehensible.

What it is though is a comment about those (whether individuals, political movements or governments) who seem to care deeply for the loss of Palestinian lives when Israel is the culprit but who couldn’t care a toss when it is Syria or someone else. This is especially notable when you factor in the scale of killing in the respective countries. Gaza gets all the attention. Yarmouk none. It’s only reasonable for people to ask why.
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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #315 on: May 22, 2018, 01:50:31 pm »
That’s right. It’s not a defence of Israeli actions and no one is pretending it is. They remain reprehensible.

What it is though is a comment about those (whether individuals, political movements or governments) who seem to care deeply for the loss of Palestinian lives when Israel is the culprit but who couldn’t care a toss when it is Syria or someone else. This is especially notable when you factor in the scale of killing in the respective countries. Gaza gets all the attention. Yarmouk none. It’s only reasonable for people to ask why.

Possibly because it's easier for the Press to access Israel and have little or no restrictions placed on what they report?

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #316 on: May 22, 2018, 02:03:13 pm »
Possibly because it's easier for the Press to access Israel and have little or no restrictions placed on what they report?

I don't think that the press have struggled to access Damascus throughout the conflict though, have they?

Obviously going into Yarmouk is another step, but again I don't think Assad has successfully prevented journalists from seeing and reporting on what's gone on. The story there has been known for long enough

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #317 on: May 22, 2018, 04:14:11 pm »
Possibly because it's easier for the Press to access Israel and have little or no restrictions placed on what they report?
Though not so easy for Human Rights Watch seemingly

@HRW_Brussels: EU today called on Israel to reinstate the visa of HRW's @OmarSShakir. 
 
“The EU expects the Israeli authorities to reverse their decision, as otherwise Israel would join a very short list of countries which have barred entry to, or expelled, @HRW staff” https://reut.rs/2x2ju0H https://twitter.com/HRW_Brussels/status/998845778620805120/photo/1

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #318 on: May 22, 2018, 04:17:38 pm »
Though not so easy for Human Rights Watch seemingly


Have they refused visas to any other HRW representatives?

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Re: Palestinians mass in thousands for protest at Gaza-Israel border
« Reply #319 on: May 22, 2018, 05:39:58 pm »
The Israeli side.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/05/22/israel-accuses-head-of-human-rights-group-of-anti-israel-activities-orders-him-to-leave/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.8cac4bc763a7

Would Sajid Javid allow someone into the UK who was advocating the boycotting of the UK and questioned the right of the country to exist? Israel are not preventing Human Rights Observers from entering the country, they are preventing that one observer from remaining.

If they rejected all the possible replacements, then it may become a significant issue.