Topic: Offensive 96 t shirt

[Filler.]

The rose appears on the 90 top they sell too, so it could just be part of the branding for that range.

I know, and I find it all very confusing! Any semiotitions on RAWK that can help me?

[hollger]

How many levels of approval do you think a product has to go through at a company like Topman? They have marketing people, product managers, designers etc etc who would all need to sign this design off.

I find it seriously hard to believe no-one within the organisation didn’t recognise the numerous references on that shirt and the links to Hillsborough. At best it’s negligence, at worst it was seen as an opportunity to sell shirts to rival football fans.

I don't know the answer to this, but I'd like to know. In my youth, I worked at a clothing chain and as I did a-levels, degree etc they did try and get me to join their management training (which I did not) so I did see a bit of the inner workings of the company. There were people in the buying dept. that were able to get stock lines in with relative free reign - I presume they'd built up a line of 'good credit' in the form of having picked lines in the past that sold well, so their judgement was trusted. I wonder if it's a similar thing in most of these clothing companies? I'm not even sure if Top Shop actually design their own clothing (or some percentage of, anyway) or just buy in stuff that's been made in another country.

I would like to think that it was an innocent mistake by someone that really should have been picked up at any of the multiple stages this item went through before it went on sale. The combination of things here - the colour, the huge lettering etc - really should have raised a flag with someone somewhere. I can't really go with the links to music because of the lack of related things (e.g. any kind of Jamaican colouring if it was Marley), unless they were trying to skirt around paying for licensing somehow.

[El Lobo]

I think if the number or the colour was different I don't think anyone would associate the shirt with Hillsborough, it's just that the combination together is an unfortunate coincidence.

Well yeah, if it was Green and 42 then we probably wouldn’t.

The fact that they have a ‘range’ of that style doesn’t mean some sly little shit at some point hasn’t clocked the possible reference and still let it go. Again, maybe 15 years ago it was predominantly Liverpool fans who would have seen a reference but not anymore. I’ve shown four people it this morning, only one of them a football fan, and they’ve all said well that’s a bit naughty isn’t it?!

Again, there is zero chance that it went from design to production to putting it on the website without at least one person going ‘hang on a sec chaps, this isn’t going to look great’.

[lobsterboy]

Any Freemasons on the Board of Topshop, what with the prosecution of several high-profile Freemasons coming up?

Nice way of getting a subliminal message over to a jury. Tinfoil hat if you like, but this stinks.

Jamie Redknapp is associated with Arcadia (face of Burtons) Topmans parent company.

[CraigDS]

Again, there is zero chance that it went from design to production to putting it on the website without at least one person going ‘hang on a sec chaps, this isn’t going to look great’.

I think zero chance is pushing it. There are plenty of people in the UK who wouldn’t get the reference, the majority even I’d say, let alone if this was design abroad.

Certainly not discounting some shite saw a chance to have a dig, but can certainly see it’s all been a bad coincidence too.

[kesey]

Fuck right off

No way is that a bob marley thing. That's a blatant dig at the 96. Karma, red, with 96 on the back. You can fuck off.

Even on the caf the think the same.

Protests at the Liverpool One store ?

[Filler.]

Well yeah, if it was Green and 42 then we probably wouldn’t.

A clear reference to Michael Stipe having read a Douglas Adams novel there. Still don't get the daffodil bit tho?

[Mister Flip Flop]

Speechless. 

[Dazzer23]

We live in a very fragmented world where it’s very easy to avoid the news if it does not have an impact on you.  If I showed that shirt to 100 people at work, maybe 2-3 would pick up on the reference.  To be honest if I showed it to my wife I doubt she’d get it without prompting.

If you went into any town city outside of Liverpool and asked how many people died at Hillsborough I bet you hardly any would get the right number.  And a frankly scary amount would have no clue what Hillsborough even was.

It makes no sense for this to be anything other than a mistake.  It has the potential to offend people so should be taken off sale but that should be the end of it.

Agree 100%
I am sure there are posters on this forum that live with Hillsborough every day of their lives. But to non Liverpool people, non football fans and particularly non UK people it is a footnote in history.
The shirt was probably designed by someone that wasn't even born in 1989 and has never watched the news because it clashes with Home and Away.
I expect Topshop to announce it a mistake an oversight and they are pulling the thing. If not, then I may start to think something more sinister is going on here.

[Mighty_Red]

I didn't forget anything - there are dozens of levels of communication that go into the production of a shirt in a multi million pound business, and not one person asked a question? I find that very difficult to believe.

Hi mate, I know you were being sarcastic, I was too! It really is amazing on so many levels, there's just no excuse for someone to have not realised, it has been front page news for 18months (never mind 29 years)!

Forget that designers, I would've thought that the guys who check out designs for copyright clearance would've picked it up - one google search would've uncovered all the stories they needed to know. Either that or no1 checks in the hope that they get away with using copyright images etc.

[stockdam]

I guess this is just an unfortunate coincidence. I can't see Topshop trying to do anything remotely controversial.

It does need to be pulled though as some unfortunate person buying this would probably end up getting hurt over it. I can see why a LFC supporter would have a go at somebody wearing one in the belief that they were deliberately doing so.

[El Lobo]

I think zero chance is pushing it. There are plenty of people in the UK who wouldn’t get the reference, the majority even I’d say, let alone if this was design abroad.

Certainly not discounting some shite saw a chance to have a dig, but can certainly see it’s all been a bad coincidence too.

Aye but I’d imagine a very large majority of those people aren’t employed in marketing by a huge global clothing brand where this sort of thing is part of what they’re paid to take into consideration.

[The Final Third]

For what it's worth..Topman have apologised:

Bryan Swanson@skysports_bryan

Retailer Topman has apologised and removed ‘96’ t-shirt from sale. Spokesperson says company “apologises unreservedly for any offence caused” and says design inspired by Bob Marley track and year of re-release. #LFC #SSN

[CraigDS]

Aye but I’d imagine a very large majority of those people aren’t employed in marketing by a huge global clothing brand where this sort of thing is part of what they’re paid to take into consideration.

It appears to be just part of a general range for their stores, not one of the main pieces, so other than some marketing jobsworth being involved for the pics for the site I’d be amazed if anyone with any nous in the marketing dept has laid eyes on it before now.

Plus let’s not forget this was originally seen on the US site I believe. So it’s entirely possible it’s been designed/signed off/produced outside of the UK.

[WidnesJon]

A clear reference to Michael Stipe having read a Douglas Adams novel there. Still don't get the daffodil bit tho?

Should have been a bowl of petunias.

My view on it is that no one (no company) in it's right mind would do it on purpose.  I think the company is at the moment shitting itself thinking how to get out of it...an apology and a large donation to charity would be a start.

Cheers
Jon

[sms1986]

For what it's worth..Topman have apologised:

Bryan Swanson@skysports_bryan

Retailer Topman has apologised and removed ‘96’ t-shirt from sale. Spokesperson says company “apologises unreservedly for any offence caused” and says design inspired by Bob Marley track and year of re-release. #LFC #SSN

Good to hear, whilst it might just be a company trying to protect itself, I don't think they intended any offence.

[sms1986]

Plus let’s not forget this was originally seen on the US site I believe. So it’s entirely possible it’s been designed/signed off/produced outside of the UK.

There's been many examples over the years of a company marketing something in another country completely oblivious that some part of the branding means something different in other countries/cultures/languages, so this could be just another of those.

[L8Craig]

There's probably zero chance that if the buyer for Topman was female, aged 30 from down South that she wouldn't click on that there is a resemblance to the Hillsborough disaster.

I doubt there is any malice in the top neither as the rest of the, admittedly shite range of clothing, runs along the same line i.e a few words from a song and the date the song was released.

Topman removed it last night despite there being no social media on Twitter so someone of authority for the company must have been made aware and pulled it pretty sharpish.

It's sad to see people on the likes of Twitter saying along the lines of 'always the victim'
96 people died and people are insensitive to that fact despite them just being normal everyday people themselves who like a day out watching a sport/ music event.

People are also just plain ignorant too it because they don't come from the area.

[The Final Third]

Good to hear, whilst it might just be a company trying to protect itself, I don't think they intended any offence.

Agree it was done out of complete ignorance.

[PhilV]

BBC article on this on their FB page has some truly repulsive comments on it 

[sms1986]

BBC article on this on their FB page has some truly repulsive comments on it 

Don’t waste too much energy on those idiots, many will be trolling for attention.

[Clint Eastwood]

It is weird that nobody notices issues like this. From the person designing it to the person modelling it. Surely one person goes "hang on a second".

Same with the 'coolest monkey in the jungle' H&M saga. How does this happen?

[sms1986]

It is weird that nobody notices issues like this. From the person designing it to the person modelling it. Surely one person goes "hang on a second".

Same with the 'coolest monkey in the jungle' H&M saga. How does this happen?

Most of the time it’s just that nobody has noticed. It could be malicious, but humans are prone to errors that are obvious with hindsight.

[liverpool185]

Well, you could have worded that better.......

I just said that due to the previous designs with the number and lyrics to a song that i posted, I cant see the link people are trying to make that Topman is trying to somehow disrespect the brave families. It would make zero sense to do so, i am fully aware that it is a extremely sensitive issue, but no fucking chance they would release something that is aimed at disrespecting such a issue as this. From what I have read, it's some kind of new shitty music designs. Looks like they have removed the t-shirts now as they didn't want to cause offense.

and says design inspired by Bob Marley track and year of re-release. #LFC #SSN

Makes sense considering the other shitty design i posted.

[24/7]

I just said that due to the previous designs with the number and lyrics to a song that i posted, I cant see the link people are trying to make that Topman is trying to somehow disrespect the brave families. It would make zero sense to do so, i am fully aware that it is a extremely sensitive issue, but no fucking chance they would release something that is aimed at disrespecting such a issue as this. From what I have read, it's some kind of new shitty music designs. Looks like they have removed the t-shirts now as they didn't want to cause offense.

And that's okay but just be careful how you word things. Your approach is generally rather aggressive and occasionally quite hostile (see your posts after the Man United game) and I'm recommending you adjust this cos you can't just go around here spouting off like you sometimes do. Thanks for the explanation though and yes it is very sensitive so how we express our opinions on matters like these is equally sensitive so it's counter-productive to do so in a way that could rile others. We're all meant to be on the same side. I too don't believe there was a deliberate and mendacious attempt to offend and they've done the right thing by removing them as soon as the connotations were made known to them.

[Andy G]

There is no way that this is not deliberate. 

• The lyrics of the song are "What Goes Around Comes Around", whereas the wording on the shirt is "What Goes Around Comes BACK Around".  If it was a reference to a song, then surely you'd get the lyric correct.
  
  What significance is the rose to the song?  none.
  
  If 96 is a year of release, why not 1996?
  
  Why make the year of release so big, if you are remembering a song, the year of release is the least important thing with the artist and the lyric being the reason that you remember it.
  
  There is no reference to Bob Marley on the while shirt, surely a tribute would have something on to refer to him, or the LP that the song came off.
  
  Why is it a red shirt with a while number in the place it would be on a football shirt?
  
  

[sms1986]

There is no way that this is not deliberate. 

• The lyrics of the song are "What Goes Around Comes Around", whereas the wording on the shirt is "What Goes Around Comes BACK Around".  If it was a reference to a song, then surely you'd get the lyric correct.
  
  What significance is the rose to the song?  none.
  
  If 96 is a year of release, why not 1996?
  
  Why make the year of release so big, if you are remembering a song, the year of release is the least important thing with the artist and the lyric being the reason that you remember it.
  
  There is no reference to Bob Marley on the while shirt, surely a tribute would have something on to refer to him, or the LP that the song came off.
  
  Why is it a red shirt with a while number in the place it would be on a football shirt?
  
  

If it was deliberate, for what purpose? To sell a few hundred or few thousand ugly shirts to people who want to mock the 96?

[24/7]

Okay, I'm worried that this could descend into a witchhunt or, worse, a slagging match because we happen to have different views over whether or not Topman was mendaciously goading us.

You know what? This is very negative publicity for them and we'll most likely never know if it was deliberate - but in less than a day of them being made aware of the connotations and offence caused, they pulled it and apologised.

Some wankers will always look to stick it to us - they are thankfully increasingly in the minority - and yes it's stupid as fuck that this shirt even got past the design stage - but in all probability it was ignorance - personally I doubt it was wilful but even so somebody in Topman is getting a Very Important History Lesson Right About NOW and might even lose their job over it - we don't know, cannot possibly see and most likely will never find out.

Lest this thread does descend into any of us falling out with other, let's just chalk this up to a victory for common sense and further justification of the 96 and the survivors and a reminder to the world that our supporters did nothing wrong that day.