Author Topic: Atheism  (Read 183680 times)

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1440 on: May 20, 2018, 12:01:19 pm »
Nazis are just people who believe in white supremacy.

 :lmao
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Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1441 on: May 20, 2018, 12:04:45 pm »
Nazis are just people who believe in white supremacy.

In fairness to Bazza, and after playing the discrimination card I shoudnt really be fair to him, he is talking about religious people who DONT impose their beliefs on others.  So the Nazi comment, isnt a fair one in context. However he needs to realise that for some religious people being religious and homophobic go hand in hand.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1442 on: May 20, 2018, 12:09:44 pm »
Aren't muslims and jews just people who believe in Islam & Judaism? If you discriminate against their beliefs then you surely are discriminating against them as a people.

Lets try a different approach. Some people get mocked for how they choose to look (the word choice is imperative here)  I see know difference between mocking someone for wearing socks and sandals than I do a black top hat and those long ringlet hair dos.  Both look daft and have made a choice to look that way

For the record, as someone born in a wheelchair I wouldnt mock anyone for the way they look, just pointing out I dont see a difference between the two. Religion should offer no protection.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Online BarryCrocker

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1443 on: May 20, 2018, 12:11:26 pm »
Nazis are just people who believe in white supremacy.

And the Godwin's Law Award goes to?
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Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1444 on: May 20, 2018, 12:26:20 pm »
And the Godwin's Law Award goes to?

A bit rich coming from someone who used the discrimination card so early in a failing debate.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1445 on: May 20, 2018, 03:10:51 pm »
Aren't muslims and jews just people who believe in Islam & Judaism? If you discriminate against their beliefs then you surely are discriminating against them as a people.


I’ve said it before. If I refuse to hire Muslims, that’s discrimination. If I take the piss out of what Muslims believe, that’s not.

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1446 on: May 20, 2018, 03:17:23 pm »
I’ve said it before. If I refuse to hire Muslims, that’s discrimination. If I take the piss out of what Muslims believe, that’s not.

I said that earlier Corky.  Think hes took his ball home.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1447 on: May 20, 2018, 09:58:44 pm »
This is a Ted Talk by a guy called Yuval Noah Harari, who wrote a book I'm reading called Sapiens, about the rise of humans. The basic gist is that religion is only one of a range of myths we invented, from laws to money, and it was this kind of "imaginary" thinking that enabled us to advance as rapidly and dominantly as we have. 

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1448 on: May 20, 2018, 10:58:32 pm »
They are atheistic religions. They have all the trappings of religion; a route to salvation, places of worship, prayers, priests, a monastic tradition, etc.

Salvation implies some sort of universal justice above real existence. That's basically saying there's a Higher Power.

Places of worship? Who are they worshipping?

Prayers are generally intercessory, otherwise they're not prayers, they're chants.

Priest, from wiki. A priest or priestess (feminine) is a religious leader authorized to perform the sacred rituals of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between humans and one or more deities.

All of those things you put forward as evidence that you don't need a god figure for a religion, all seem to involve a god figure. Or two.

Offline vagabond

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1449 on: May 21, 2018, 12:41:43 am »
This is a Ted Talk by a guy called Yuval Noah Harari, who wrote a book I'm reading called Sapiens, about the rise of humans. The basic gist is that religion is only one of a range of myths we invented, from laws to money, and it was this kind of "imaginary" thinking that enabled us to advance as rapidly and dominantly as we have. 

I've heard good things about this book. May give it a read soon too.
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
and walks outdoors, and keeps on walking,
because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
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Offline vagabond

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1450 on: May 21, 2018, 12:46:55 am »
Salvation implies some sort of universal justice above real existence. That's basically saying there's a Higher Power.

Places of worship? Who are they worshipping?

Prayers are generally intercessory, otherwise they're not prayers, they're chants.

Priest, from wiki. A priest or priestess (feminine) is a religious leader authorized to perform the sacred rituals of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between humans and one or more deities.

All of those things you put forward as evidence that you don't need a god figure for a religion, all seem to involve a god figure. Or two.

Not to speak for ZZ, but I imagine the difference he has in mind is between the personal God of the monotheistic religions versus an impersonal, but still spiritual, ground of being.
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
and walks outdoors, and keeps on walking,
because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
---Rilke

Offline classycarra

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1451 on: May 21, 2018, 10:58:33 am »
I've heard good things about this book. May give it a read soon too.
Highly recommend it. So vast in it's scope, but so readable and interesting

Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1452 on: May 21, 2018, 11:53:12 am »
Highly recommend it. So vast in it's scope, but so readable and interesting

I have ordered it at work, looking forward to reading it now. This thread is doing a sterling promotional job for it ;D
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1453 on: May 21, 2018, 11:55:11 am »
I have ordered it at work, looking forward to reading it now. This thread is doing a sterling promotional job for it ;D

Think it's had a lot of love in the 'last book you read' thread too - there are a lot of us fans on here!

I wouldn't extend the recommendation to Homo Deus though

Offline thejbs

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1454 on: May 21, 2018, 12:51:27 pm »
I have ordered it at work, looking forward to reading it now. This thread is doing a sterling promotional job for it ;D

Fuck it... Shift up a seat on the bandwagon, I'm ordering it now.

EDIT: Paperback Ł4... ebook Ł6... fuck you, Amazon.


Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1455 on: May 25, 2018, 11:02:36 am »
Study: Right-Wing Authoritarianism Accounts For Correlation Between Religion And Lack Of Intellectual Humility

Conformity to norms, obedience to leaders, intolerance of deviance, and hostility towards other groups are associated with lack of intellectual humility.

Religious individuals are, on average, less humble about their intellectual prowess than non-religious individuals, and it is right-wing authoritarianism that accounts for most of the correlation between religiosity and lack of intellectual humility, according to a Pepperdine University study to be published in the August edition of the peer-reviewed journal Personality and Individual Differences.

The Foundation for Critical Thinking defines intellectual humility as “having a consciousness of the limits of one’s knowledge, including a sensitivity to circumstances in which one’s native egocentrism is likely to function self-deceptively.”

In other words, to be intellectually humble means to recognize that you might be wrong about what you believe. This little-studied personality trait could help psychologists shed a light on how people make decisions in various areas of life. Previous research, summarized by The Independent and conducted by Duke University researchers, has indicated that this personality trait is equally spread between religious and non-religious people, liberal and conservative-minded individuals.

New research by Elizabeth J.Krumrei-Mancuso, an Associate Professor of Psychology at Pepperdine University, to an extent contradicts Duke University’s findings but also sheds light on what can now be considered a key factor in this — right-wing authoritarianism.

Krumrei-Mancuso authored a study titled “Intellectual Humility’s Links to Religion and Spirituality and the Role of Authoritarianism.”

Professor Krumrei-Mancuso recruited 302 individuals for the study. Each participant completed an online survey. Three years later, 100 survey participants completed another survey. Upon analysis conducted by Krumrei-Mancuso, the survey results indicated that there is indeed a small, negative link between religiosity and intellectual humility. A third variable, however, further explained the association.

These unexpected findings prompted the Pepperdine University researcher to examine and control right-wing authoritarianism on study participants. This was measured using the so-called Right-Wing Authoritarianism Scale (RWA).

This scale – the interactive version of it has been published by Opensychometrics – asks participants to agree or disagree with statements such as, “Our country desperately needs a mighty leader who will do what has to be done to destroy the radical new ways and sinfulness that are ruining us.”

“It initially seemed that a number of religious and spiritual variables predicted less intellectual humility over time, but these links mostly disappeared when factoring in the construct of right-wing authoritarianism,” professor Krumrei-Mancuso told PsyPost.

In other words, right-wing authoritarianism, the third variable in Krumrei-Mancuso’s research, explains that, although religion is somewhat related to lack of intellectual humility, the main reason for this lies in sociopolitical attitudes.

Conformity to norms, obedience to leaders, intolerance of deviance, and hostility toward other groups are associated with lack of intellectual humility, and these sociopolitical attitudes are, in turn, associated with right-wing authoritarianism.

In conclusion, Krumrei-Mancuso’s research shows that religious individuals may be slightly less humble about their intellectual abilities, but those who are have their sociopolitical attitudes, which fall under the umbrella of right-wing authoritarianism, to thank for their lack of intellectual humility.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1456 on: May 25, 2018, 12:46:09 pm »
Attempts to suppress sexual thoughts could result in an increase of those thoughts

New research suggests that the suppression of sexual thoughts among religious people only begets a greater preoccupation with sexual thoughts and fantasies.

The study, published in The Journal of Sex Research, compared Jewish Orthodox teens to secular teens in Israel.

“I grew up in a religious community and today I define myself as religious,” said study author Yaniv Efrati of Beit Berl College. “I have noticed over the years that the subject of sexuality in the religious public is more complex than the secular public. I also noticed that many religious people are busy with the question of whether their sexual behavior is normal or not.”

A survey of 661 teens found that religious adolescents reported greater preoccupation with unwanted sexual thoughts and fantasies than secular adolescents.

A second survey of 522 teens found that religious adolescents tended to report lower well-being, which was linked to their preoccupation with unwanted sexual thoughts.

Another survey of 317 teens found that religious adolescents were more likely to report suppressing sexual thoughts and fantasies, which in turn was associated with more self-report compulsive sexual behavior and lower well-being.

“The study reflects, in my opinion, the complex reality among religious adolescents. It seems that the religious public should examine its ways regarding the importance of discourse and the ability to engage in sexuality and sexual education even in the early stages of adolescence,” Efrati told PsyPost.

“It is very important that religious society discuss sexuality and deal with sexuality in the right manner at the beginning of adolescence and even at the elementary age in order to prevent the development of compulsive sexual behavior,” he added.

“In my studies and work with sexual compulsive behavior in adults, I find that parental responses to child sexual behavior (masturbation, pornography viewing) are very significant in compulsive sexual development. Comments regarding sexuality as being a ‘dirty thing’ or ‘forbidden’ only cause the development of compulsive sexual behavior.”

“Longitudinal research will provide a more accurate response to the questions raised in the study and will try to give a broader view of the suppression of sexual thoughts and their implications in adulthood.”

Efrati noted that religious people tend to overestimate their compulsive sexual behavior. Previous research has found, for instance, that religious people were more likely to have a perceived pornography addiction, regardless of how much porn they actually consumed.

“It would not be prudent to say that religious people have a higher compulsive sexual behavior than secular people,” Efrati said. “In the field of therapy, I see that religious people in self-reporting will indeed report that they have a compulsive sexual behavior when in practice they do not have a compulsive sexual behavior. They define themselves as such because of the negative feelings (shame and guilt) of the conflict in which they live — sexuality versus religion.”

The study was titled: “God, I Can’t Stop Thinking About Sex! The Rebound Effect in Unsuccessful Suppression of Sexual Thoughts Among Religious Adolescents“.

Offline classycarra

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1457 on: May 25, 2018, 01:46:00 pm »

The study was titled: “God, I Can’t Stop Thinking About Sex! The Rebound Effect in Unsuccessful Suppression of Sexual Thoughts Among Religious Adolescents“.

Great study title

It's interesting, but anecdotally that third to last para rings true for a couple of my friends (and a former friend whose godliness led him to isolating himself from our group)

Offline kavah

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1458 on: May 25, 2018, 06:44:06 pm »
This is a Ted Talk by a guy called Yuval Noah Harari, who wrote a book I'm reading called Sapiens, about the rise of humans. The basic gist is that religion is only one of a range of myths we invented, from laws to money, and it was this kind of "imaginary" thinking that enabled us to advance as rapidly and dominantly as we have. 

" ...imagine Wembley Stadium completely full with 100% chimpanzees" - do you think he watched the cup final? :D


imagination - yeah good that, we love stories and good storytellers, they are so powerful to our reality.
And what to do with the new, and useless, class of folks made obsolete by technology? Drugs and computer games? Holy cow, bring it on !

Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1459 on: May 25, 2018, 06:53:40 pm »
" ...imagine Wembley Stadium completely full with 100% chimpanzees" - do you think he watched the cup final? :D


imagination - yeah good that, we love stories and good storytellers, they are so powerful to our reality.
And what to do with the new, and useless, class of folks made obsolete by technology? Drugs and computer games? Holy cow, bring it on !

I was just bemoaning people's lack of imagination in the Brexit thread. Truly believe it is a powerful force. People's inability to imagine how other people live or think means a lack of empathy and makes us more likely to turn insular.
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1460 on: May 26, 2018, 03:36:08 am »
Study: Right-Wing Authoritarianism Accounts For Correlation Between Religion And Lack Of Intellectual Humility

Conformity to norms, obedience to leaders, intolerance of deviance, and hostility towards other groups are associated with lack of intellectual humility.


I think this describes the modern left to a great degree and I say this having grown up in what would be considered very conservative surroundings, so clearly identify all those traits in both the religious right as well as the modern left or the regressive left as some are calling it.
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Offline zero zero

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1461 on: May 26, 2018, 06:43:50 am »
It seems to me that some of you that came to Atheism later find it hard to stop being defined by the specific religion you've rejected.
Salvation implies some sort of universal justice above real existence. That's basically saying there's a Higher Power.
In Buddhism the universe is balanced by opposing forces; yin and yang, positive and negative, male and female, etc. The "universal justice" is karma. You must have heard of it. It's like gravity and no more of a Higher Power than gravity.
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Places of worship? Who are they worshipping?
Why does there have to be a "Who"?
Quote
Prayers are generally intercessory, otherwise they're not prayers, they're chants.
The first prayer when you're at the temple starts "I take refuge in the Buddha, I take refuge in the Dharma (the teachings), I take refuge in the Sangha (the clergy)". Basically, you are agreeing to live by the teachings as explained by the Buddha. There's no intercessory (<-new word!) aspect as far as I can see.
Quote
Priest, from wiki. A priest or priestess (feminine) is a religious leader authorized to perform the sacred rituals of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between humans and one or more deities.
If there's is no god there's no third party for a priest to mediate with. The role of the Buddhist clergy is to interpret the Dharma for the lay people on whose charity they live.
Quote
All of those things you put forward as evidence that you don't need a god figure for a religion, all seem to involve a god figure. Or two.
There is no god. It's odd how, as an atheist, you seem to be struggling with the concept. Just let the idea go. The is no god and you just get on with your day.

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1462 on: May 26, 2018, 08:21:52 am »
I think this describes the modern left to a great degree and I say this having grown up in what would be considered very conservative surroundings, so clearly identify all those traits in both the religious right as well as the modern left or the regressive left as some are calling it.

I think one of the many traits both left and right share is a lack of a sense of humour.

I don't know on which side of the Political divide the Puritans fell but those fellas certainly didn't believe in having a laugh.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1463 on: May 26, 2018, 08:49:41 am »
I think one of the many traits both left and right share is a lack of a sense of humour.

I don't know on which side of the Political divide the Puritans fell but those fellas certainly didn't believe in having a laugh.

I don't think they lack a sense of humour as such but they hold certain ideas as untouchable and therefore not worth laughing about. Religion in the case of the religious right and off late, identity politics on the left.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1464 on: May 26, 2018, 01:05:51 pm »
There is no god. It's odd how, as an atheist, you seem to be struggling with the concept. Just let the idea go. The is no god and you just get on with your day.

Thanks, that's pretty much how I feel anyway.

Au contraire, my addled chum, you were the one who was proposing a religion without a god, which is what you claim Buddhism is. As far as I recall, you're also a Buddhist who doesn't believe in reincarnation. That's a fundamental tenet of your religion, like a Catholic who doesn't believe in the Resurrection, so I'm not sure you're the most reliable witness on what Buddhism is. That's ok, all religious people walk around in a fog of cognitive dissonance. Yours just seems to be more foggy than most.

For example, you mentioned Buddhist places of worship. I asked who your adherents were worshipping, and your response was "why does there have to be a who?". The answer, of course, is because that's what the fucking word means.

worship
ˈwəːʃɪp/Submit
noun
1.
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.

It's pretty hard to have a discussion about religion with someone who doesn't know what words mean.

Offline zero zero

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1465 on: May 26, 2018, 11:09:37 pm »
Au contraire, my addled chum, you were the one who was proposing a religion without a god, which is what you claim Buddhism is. As far as I recall, you're also a Buddhist who doesn't believe in reincarnation. That's a fundamental tenet of your religion, like a Catholic who doesn't believe in the Resurrection, so I'm not sure you're the most reliable witness on what Buddhism is. That's ok, all religious people walk around in a fog of cognitive dissonance. Yours just seems to be more foggy than most.
Oh my little lapsed-Catholic that's finding it so hard to break his programming, I don't have to believe in anything. That's why such a thing as Secular Buddhism exists. Open your mind to the idea that Buddhism existed when your ancestors were still garroting each other in bogs.
Quote
For example, you mentioned Buddhist places of worship. I asked who your adherents were worshipping, and your response was "why does there have to be a who?". The answer, of course, is because that's what the fucking word means.

worship
ˈwəːʃɪp/Submit
noun
1.
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.

It's pretty hard to have a discussion about religion with someone who doesn't know what words mean.
My Mac throws up:

1. obsolete The condition of being worthy; honour, distinction.

2. The devotion accorded to a deity or sacred object.

3. The religious ceremonies that express this devotion.

"Taking refuge" refers to 1. You must be aware that the concepts we're discussing only have rough approximations in English, yes?

A good example of this is that you use the term "reincarnation", whereas I always use the term "rebirth". Reincarnation implies the existence of an entity that exists beyond death - an "eternal soul". An eternal soul would get in the way of the ultimate goal of Buddhists - non-existence. Buddhists don't have souls.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1466 on: May 26, 2018, 11:11:21 pm »
Oh my little lapsed-Catholic that's finding it so hard to break his programming, I don't have to believe in anything. That's why such a thing as Secular Buddhism exists. Open your mind to the idea that Buddhism existed when your ancestors were still garroting each other in bogs. My Mac throws up:

1. obsolete The condition of being worthy; honour, distinction.

2. The devotion accorded to a deity or sacred object.

3. The religious ceremonies that express this devotion.

"Taking refuge" refers to 1. You must be aware that the concepts we're discussing only have rough approximations in English, yes?

A good example of this is that you use the term "reincarnation", whereas I always use the term "rebirth". Reincarnation implies the existence of an entity that exists beyond death - an "eternal soul". An eternal soul would get in the way of the ultimate goal of Buddhists - non-existence. Buddhists don't have souls.

So you don’t believe in something older than what corkboy doesn’t believe in..

Added in to an ad hom attack and a touch of incipient racism and your post is quite unpleasant.
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Offline zero zero

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1467 on: May 26, 2018, 11:14:11 pm »
Added in to an ad hom attack and a touch of incipient racism and your post is quite unpleasant.
Point it out fella


EDIT: And, Tepid, as someone that's never, ever been on the receiving end of racism, that's not a trivial accusation you're throwing around there. Spit it out or fucking butt out. This has nothing to do with you or your understanding of the Western, man-made concept of "races" and the idea that one could be "superior" to another. Corky's a big boy and can look after himself.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 11:43:09 pm by zero zero »

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1468 on: May 27, 2018, 08:33:41 am »
A load of specious bullshit from ZZ here. Yeah, there are some concepts in Eastern religion that only have loose translations into English but the translations are sufficient to understand and argue with. Reincarnation vs rebirth is a great example of exactly this. A meaningless distinction is drawn to almost deliberately keep things vague as they sound self-important but when probing it further, it becomes clear that it is bollocks. What's the difference? I would love ZZ to explain it because I've had other people try and it's normally in the form of metaphors because what happens is just so fucking complex. ;)

It certainly doesn't help that many hundreds of schools of thought have been combined into "religions" so that the West could understand them better but equally the same could be said of the many different churches within Christianity or Islam. But the issue with that is that nearly everyone can claim that their religion believes x or y or z and no one can doubt it because scriptures don't work the same way as the Bible or Quran do.

But mostly, every time I've come across someone that self-describes as an atheist [insert Eastern religion] here, they come across as pompous buffoons that are inexplicably proud of their history as if they personally achieved all those things. They are the equivalent of the I'm not proud to be British but I'm bloody glad types. But again probe them further and the mask comes off very quickly. It's just old-fashioned religious hypocrisy where they want to eat their cake and have it too.

Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1469 on: May 27, 2018, 02:06:47 pm »
Open your mind to the idea that Buddhism existed when your ancestors were still garroting each other in bogs.

Wow. You’re a nasty piece of work, aren’t you?

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1470 on: May 27, 2018, 02:13:59 pm »
Wow. You’re a nasty piece of work, aren’t you?

Yeah, that's pretty fucking offensive. And with the same voice, he's telling us how loving, open and peaceful Buddhism is.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1471 on: May 28, 2018, 12:23:22 pm »
Anyway, to get boldly back to topic, have a read of this wiki about Charles Bradlaugh, an atheist who got elected as MP for Northampton in 1880, went to parliament, refused to take the oath on account of it being religious and all, was imprisoned but much to the annoyance of parliament, kept getting re-elected. He finally got an act passed to allow MPs to affirm instead of taking the oath.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bradlaugh

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1472 on: May 28, 2018, 12:24:47 pm »
Catholic diocese refuses to let gay valediction speak at his own graduation

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/valedictorians-speech-barred-political-gave-bullhorn/story?id=55469094
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1473 on: May 28, 2018, 01:21:24 pm »
But mostly, every time I've come across someone that self-describes as an atheist [insert Eastern religion] here, they come across as pompous buffoons that are inexplicably proud of their history as if they personally achieved all those things. They are the equivalent of the I'm not proud to be British but I'm bloody glad types. But again probe them further and the mask comes off very quickly. It's just old-fashioned religious hypocrisy where they want to eat their cake and have it too.

Can resonate with that so much, as will you given our backgrounds. I've had a fair share of verbal duels with 'atheist Hindus' who explain through WhatsApps forwards (the makings of the devil I tell you!) and half-baked Twitter historians how Hinduism is a 'way of life' and not a religion, and is at its heart peaceful and inclusive. While at the same time asking for Indian Muslims and Christians to return back to the Hindu fold they originally belonged to in order to be truly considered Indian. I would not go as far as saying this has only started rearing its head since Modi's election in 2014, but the narrative has definitely gathered pace.

Be very wary of two turns of phrases from religious zealots while they describe themselves or their religion - 'I am an atheist [religion name]' and 'My religion is a way of life, not really a religion'.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1474 on: May 28, 2018, 01:47:15 pm »
Can resonate with that so much, as will you given our backgrounds. I've had a fair share of verbal duels with 'atheist Hindus' who explain through WhatsApps forwards (the makings of the devil I tell you!) and half-baked Twitter historians how Hinduism is a 'way of life' and not a religion, and is at its heart peaceful and inclusive. While at the same time asking for Indian Muslims and Christians to return back to the Hindu fold they originally belonged to in order to be truly considered Indian. I would not go as far as saying this has only started rearing its head since Modi's election in 2014, but the narrative has definitely gathered pace.

Be very wary of two turns of phrases from religious zealots while they describe themselves or their religion - 'I am an atheist [religion name]' and 'My religion is a way of life, not really a religion'.

That's a very succinct summary and I agree with pretty much everything you've said.
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1475 on: May 28, 2018, 01:55:52 pm »
I think with Buddhists, the obsession with reincarnation is what leads to a lot of the snide superiority. They have a belief that what your ancestors did has an effect on what kind of person you are, hence ZZ's attempted insult to my forebears in bogs, (as if I gave a flying fuck). Claiming that you are somehow more evolved or laudable based on what your ancestors might or might not have done, and conversely that you are somehow to blame for their shortcomings, is just another form of bigotry, visiting the sins or blessings of the fathers on the sons type of thing. It's the opposite of human dignity, assigning people labels or characteristics based on things about themselves they can't control. In fact, it's not far from the white supremacist One Drop Rule. It's also what underpins royal rule, so those are nice bedfellows.

It's also genuinely stupid. Go back a mere six generations, and you're up to hundreds of ancestors, so the idea that one can accurately chart the worth of so many people on such scant historical detail is hilarious. It's about as sensible as claiming superiority because you had a great grandfather who was a cool guy, while ignoring the other seven equal contributors to your genetic make up.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1476 on: May 28, 2018, 02:41:19 pm »
I think with Buddhists, the obsession with reincarnation is what leads to a lot of the snide superiority. They have a belief that what your ancestors did has an effect on what kind of person you are, hence ZZ's attempted insult to my forebears in bogs, (as if I gave a flying fuck). Claiming that you are somehow more evolved or laudable based on what your ancestors might or might not have done, and conversely that you are somehow to blame for their shortcomings, is just another form of bigotry, visiting the sins or blessings of the fathers on the sons type of thing. It's the opposite of human dignity, assigning people labels or characteristics based on things about themselves they can't control. In fact, it's not far from the white supremacist One Drop Rule. It's also what underpins royal rule, so those are nice bedfellows.

It's also genuinely stupid. Go back a mere six generations, and you're up to hundreds of ancestors, so the idea that one can accurately chart the worth of so many people on such scant historical detail is hilarious. It's about as sensible as claiming superiority because you had a great grandfather who was a cool guy, while ignoring the other seven equal contributors to your genetic make up.

That's not entirely accurate to be fair. Much of your first paragraph would be accurate in describing certain strands of what is the modern Hindu religion and the Indo-Vedic religions that Buddha was railing against but not Buddhism itself.

I think this is quite a fair summary of Buddhist ideas, https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/buddha/

My hypothesis of why Buddhists (AND Hindhus, Jains etc) take pride in their religion is that it is due to their attachment to their religion as a form of identity in a way that it doesn't happen quite as much in the West. My old housemate was a Catholic and listening to him speak about his religion, it became clear that while the specifics may vary, the overall attitude was very much the same as that of most other religious people from the East. I think people are more likely to be proud of the one aspect of their roots that forms the bulwark of their personal identity.

For a black Baptist in the US, being black might be more of a matter of pride and the main aspect of their identity as opposed to one in Africa, where being a Baptist is much more likely to form the core of their identity. Obviously, this is an enormously simplistic parallel but I think it conveys what I'm trying to express reasonably well.


In much of South Asia, religion forms the core of one's identity. In some regions, caste and language are also important but each of those elements are tied inextricably. Part of that is due to existing social norms and a part of that is also due to these divisions being weaponised during the colonial period to further divide and rule, which serves to cement people's attachment to the aspects forming the core of their identity, which in this case would be religion. Then, it stands to reason that people will be much more proud of the achievements of those that belong to their tribe. I think this is a very natural process to be honest. But that's my hypothesis anyway.
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1477 on: May 28, 2018, 02:50:35 pm »
That's not entirely accurate to be fair. Much of your first paragraph would be accurate in describing certain strands of what is the modern Hindu religion and the Indo-Vedic religions that Buddha was railing against but not Buddhism itself.

I think this is quite a fair summary of Buddhist ideas, https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/buddha/

It might be fair but it isn't clear.

It is clear that the body ceases to exist at death. And given the Buddha's argument that mental states all originate in dependence on sense-object contact events, it seems no psychological constituent of the person can transmigrate either. Yet the Buddha claims that persons who have not yet achieved enlightenment will be reborn as sentient beings of some sort after they die. If there is no constituent whatever that moves from one life to the next, how could the being in the next life be the same person as the being in this life? This question becomes all the more pointed when it is added that rebirth is governed by karma, something that functions as a kind of cosmic justice: those born into fortunate circumstances do so as a result of good deeds in prior lives, while unpleasant births result from evil past deeds. Such a system of reward and punishment could be just only if the recipient of pleasant or unpleasant karmic fruit is the same person as the agent of the good or evil action. And the opponent finds it incomprehensible how this could be so in the absence of a persisting self.

It gets even more turgid after that, let me know if it makes any sense to you.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1478 on: May 28, 2018, 02:53:28 pm »
In much of South Asia, religion forms the core of one's identity. In some regions, caste and language are also important but each of those elements are tied inextricably. Part of that is due to existing social norms and a part of that is also due to these divisions being weaponised during the colonial period to further divide and rule, which serves to cement people's attachment to the aspects forming the core of their identity, which in this case would be religion. Then, it stands to reason that people will be much more proud of the achievements of those that belong to their tribe. I think this is a very natural process to be honest. But that's my hypothesis anyway.

The same kind of thinking underpins, for example, the British colonial attitude of, we are civilised and have been for a long time, therefore we are better than you. It's taking credit for what your ancestors did. I accept that's a common enough view but it's not very rational.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1479 on: May 28, 2018, 03:00:34 pm »
It might be fair but it isn't clear.

It is clear that the body ceases to exist at death. And given the Buddha's argument that mental states all originate in dependence on sense-object contact events, it seems no psychological constituent of the person can transmigrate either. Yet the Buddha claims that persons who have not yet achieved enlightenment will be reborn as sentient beings of some sort after they die. If there is no constituent whatever that moves from one life to the next, how could the being in the next life be the same person as the being in this life? This question becomes all the more pointed when it is added that rebirth is governed by karma, something that functions as a kind of cosmic justice: those born into fortunate circumstances do so as a result of good deeds in prior lives, while unpleasant births result from evil past deeds. Such a system of reward and punishment could be just only if the recipient of pleasant or unpleasant karmic fruit is the same person as the agent of the good or evil action. And the opponent finds it incomprehensible how this could be so in the absence of a persisting self.

It gets even more turgid after that, let me know if it makes any sense to you.

It's not particularly clear but welcome to academic writing I guess!

The bit that you've highlighted is what I was referring to earlier when talking about the tendency of Buddhists to draw a distinction between reincarnation and rebirth as they don't believe in souls.

In layman's terms, reincarnation requires a soul that migrates from one body to another with some process of judging the actions of the soul in between, which then determines the body this soul goes into next; a King if it was really great or a worm if it was dreadful. Buddha accepts all this but denies the existence of a soul. This then raises the question as to what does migrate from one body to the next or to what good and bad deeds (karma) being attributed to, and the answer isn't available within Buddhist thought. That's my understanding anyway. I hadn't actually read that particular part of the SEP's article on Buddha, but it is interesting to see that they came to the same conclusion as I, which is that this central tenet of the religion is logically inconsistent.
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.