Topic: Thread Derailing, Persistent Negativity and Agenda Driven Spin

[Crosby Nick]

Then to be honest pal, you haven't read the whole thread. Different terminology for persistent has been used throughout.

It feels on here that sometimes there is questioning for questionings sake. Everything needs to be questioned.

What makes you say that?

[Hinesy]

It simply feels like a 'warning' thread.  If you dare to question anything then you're booted out.  That's how I've read it anyway.  Maybe it's not intended to be so draconian.  But simply reading it is disheartening.

Anyway, maybe it's a storm in a teacup.  I'm off back to the Boozer etc.

Then I'm genuinely sorry we've not been clear enough about what we want to acheive. Now that's either a misinterpretation by yourself, or not being clear enough on our part.

So basically what we're saying is this:

Action will be taken on those posters who persist in commenting in every thread going, pulling threads down or derailing them with the same repetitive arguments time and time again.

We want posters to express their opinions good or bad, and we want healthy debate. However we do not want incessant angry pessimism clogging up every new thread.

Our collective view is below.

Thanks.

is in my OP and I think that clearly shows that we're not trying to stifle opinion, rather prevent many threads being ruined by the repetition of circular arguments, usually made by the same few posters.

Hope that clarifys things.

[CHOPPER]

Where has the humour gone?......Far, far, far! To fucking serious.

The Kop was built on it's cutting humour, not, on it's understanding of a formation or the day to day financial running's of the club...yes, we heard/had an inkling what was going on, but, and this is a massive but - fundamentally it was built on it's camaraderie and gallows humour.

You lot for me, have lost sight what we should all be about.

Liverpool fans are not the enemy, remember that.
 

[Hij]

What makes you say that?

Something, anything happens, and the usual people will wait to see where the stone falls and then argue against it. Maybe that's just me getting cynical though.

Even in this thread, I hope TSC doesn't get the wrong end of the stick, but it's been explained clear enough, yet words like Draconian are getting thrown about, admittedly with caveat, but I think Hinsey post above demonstrates it. But without wanting to fall foul of the rules myself, I'll exit here, I've said my piece.

[TSC]

Then to be honest pal, you haven't read the whole thread. Different terminology for persistent has been used throughout.

It feels on here that sometimes there is questioning for questionings sake. Everything needs to be questioned.

Oh I have mate.  And I know it can all get on yer tits (mods perspective).  But lets face it.  We're not all the same.  One man's sub is another man's waste.  But you can't censor anything.  Esp anything against the owners etc.  Otherwise you just become an unpaid volunteer for them.

I spent ages in 'off the pitch' type threads debating with a few posters who lauded G&H until the end.  Until even they had to admit they were wrong (they didn't, they simply disappeared). 

But please don't censor us now and stop us from asking questions, under the guise of negativity.  Simply because they're not G&H.

[Fordy]

My biggest gripe, and it derails even the youth thread, is when people bother to respond to trolling/ ignorant nonsense. The report to mod button saves so much time - and it doesn't derail a thread. So next time someone posts shit - report it because responding to it makes for tedious reading.

Totally disagree. It's like calling 999 cause you think they is an emergency and you're right. Thing is if you called 999 and it wasn't an emergency then it would be you that gets told off and maybe a fine.

Point I am trying to make is that the mods are busy people and just reporting people cause you think someone is trolling or posting shit(as you say) is wrong, as that person could be making good points and debate can be had about them.

The mods do have it hard lets not make it harder for them.

Mods are doing a fine job  but the report button shouldn't be used for the fun of it, as that is just taking the piss.

[macca888]

So the mods only want posters who give something new and add value to the site then? I suppose next thing, we won't be able to post in the main forum if we're over 24. Those younger posters might give years of service whereas a good experienced forum pro like myself, well I'm just here for one last pay day. Soup Nazis? Fucking Moneyball Mods!

And we didn't really need a whole thread. You could have just sent Al and Walshy a postcard.

[BreakfastPercy]

Well in guys, though It feels to me like people aren't even properly reading this thread, or are unduly worried by 'censorship'.

Clearly differing opinions are welcomed. Clearly there needs to be both light and shade. The key concept is 'encouragement'. Are you encouraging debate? This thread is quite clearly aimed at the fact that all too often people have gotten into the habit of trying to end debate, and 'win' threads. Sometimes, just leave the baggage at the door.

This site has more, and importantly better, Liverpool FC content than any site on the web bar none. Just ask yourself: are you contributing to that? Are you making the place more enjoyable? And finally, are you actually enjoying it yourself? Football is escapism, don't forget to encourage the bits of the site you like so that there's more of it around, and in the end this is a positive outlet for your time.

[CraigDS]

Oh I have mate.  And I know it can all get on yer tits (mods perspective).  But lets face it.  We're not all the same.  One man's sub is another man's waste.  But you can't censor anything.  Esp anything against the owners etc.  Otherwise you just become an unpaid volunteer for them.

I spent ages in 'off the pitch' type threads debating with a few posters who lauded G&H until the end.  Until even they had to admit they were wrong (they didn't, they simply disappeared). 

But please don't censor us now and stop us from asking questions, under the guise of negativity.  Simply because they're not G&H.

I think their issue is there is a time and a place for the asking of questions, and its not every thread (which has been happening). Not that no questions should be asked at all.

[macca888]

Where has the humour gone?......Far, far, far! To fucking serious.

The Kop was built on it's cutting humour, not, on it's understanding of a formation or the day to day financial running's of the club...yes, we heard/had an inkling what was going on, but, and this is a massive but - fundamentally it was built on it's camaraderie and gallows humour.

You lot for me, have lost sight what we should all be about.

Liverpool fans are not the enemy, remember that.

It was fuck. It was built on 4 of sand and 1 of cement. and if we ever get an extension, it'll probably be Lego (or those cheap Sticklebricks out of Home and Bargain) because those damn yankees won't fork out for Meccano.

[The 5th Benitle]

Where has the humour gone?......Far, far, far! To fucking serious.

The Kop was built on it's cutting humour, not, on it's understanding of a formation or the day to day financial running's of the club...yes, we heard/had an inkling what was going on, but, and this is a massive but - fundamentally it was built on it's camaraderie and gallows humour.

You lot for me, have lost sight what we should all be about.

Liverpool fans are not the enemy, remember that.

Don't you understand that we're trying to get it back?

[Red Genius]

Well in guys, though It feels to me like people aren't even properly reading this thread, or are unduly worried by 'censorship'.

Clearly differing opinions are welcomed. Clearly there needs to be both light and shade. The key concept is 'encouragement'. Are you encouraging debate? This thread is quite clearly aimed at the fact that all too often people have gotten into the habit of trying to end debate, and 'win' threads. Sometimes, just leave the baggage at the door.

This site has more, and importantly better, Liverpool FC content than any site on the web bar none. Just ask yourself: are you contributing to that? Are you making the place more enjoyable? And finally, are you actually enjoying it yourself? Football is escapism, don't forget to encourage the bits of the site you like so that there's more of it around, and in the end this is a positive outlet for your time.

In the words of an oft-used Youtube comment (forgive the political incorrectness), remember:
"Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics... Even if you win, you're still retarded."

I say all that as a reminder to myself too.

Quite, so it aint broke... lets not fix it. It's a difficult season (for some) lets just get on with it.

Carry on weeding out the unwelcome visitors here who aren't interested in debate, and let the forum carry on - one of the "liverpool way virtues" was not to air our dirty linen in public.

No requirement for this thread IMO. Any management of posters can be delivered behind the scenes as it always has been.

Those here that genuinely want to discuss the club, know what the script it, it doesn't need to be reiterated in threads like these.

Anyways, what a fucking stupid waste of time, especially after a day like today - lets all have a pint and a good sing song.... what a day eh 5 fucking nil.

[The 5th Benitle]

But please don't censor us now and stop us from asking questions, under the guise of negativity.  Simply because they're not G&H.

Please point to where we've asked you to stop asking questions? Cheers.

[robgreen91]

What makes you say that?

 

[SP]

Totally disagree. It's like calling 999 cause you think they is an emergency and you're right. Thing is if you called 999 and it wasn't an emergency then it would be you that gets told off and maybe a fine.

Point I am trying to make is that the mods are busy people and just reporting people cause you think someone is trolling or posting shit(as you say) is wrong, as that person could be making good points and debate can be had about them.

The mods do have it hard lets not make it harder for them.

Mods are doing a fine fine but the report button shouldn't be used for the fun of it.

I disagree. As long as you aren't taking the piss, we would not discourage reporting contentious posts to mods. It allows whoever is on to take early action if required. If we miss stuff and don't intervene early, it often kills the topic as the effort to clean it up becomes prohibitive.

Report to Mod does not equate to a request to ban the poster. It means that you think that there is a moderating decision to be made.  Stuff that is reported is far quicker and cleaner to fix than stuff that isn't.

On the very rare occasions that someone gets overzealous, we will have a quiet word. But that is really very rare.

[TSC]

I think their issue is there is a time and a place for the asking of questions, and its not every thread (which has been happening). Not that no questions should be asked at all.

OK.  Craig (if that's yer name) I know you're always in every thread re the owners defending/in support of them.  I think i've nailed my colours to the mast alongside a few others.  I don't like them.  I don't trust them.  They got a bye ball from taking over from Gillet and Hicks.  But they're fuckijng useless.  No strategy, never here for any game, etc. 

I am willing to be proved wrong.  But until then I'd like to have the 'freedom' to post on here, without my view being deemed 'negative' and subsequently wiped out.

[Hinesy]

I am willing to be proved wrong.  But until then I'd like to have the 'freedom' to post on here, without my view being deemed 'negative' and subsequently wiped out.

As I said mate, I'd hope you'd carry on doing that. That's not what this is about. Its about some people persistently posting their opinions irrespective of what they are, in every thread non stop.

[MiserableP15]

Where has the humour gone?......Far, far, far! To fucking serious.

The Kop was built on it's cutting humour, not, on it's understanding of a formation or the day to day financial running's of the club...yes, we heard/had an inkling what was going on, but, and this is a massive but - fundamentally it was built on it's camaraderie and gallows humour.

You lot for me, have lost sight what we should all be about.

Liverpool fans are not the enemy, remember that.

RAWK is not the Kop mate. You're deluding yourself if you think the multitude of LFC fans over the world represent what was/is the Kop.

Fans young and old would go on the Kop and learn first hand what it was to be a LFC supporter. RAWK (whilst a forum) should also be an extension of that attitude, whilst retaining it's essence of public debate.

If half the shit said on here was said on the Kop, plenty of people sitting behind their computers would be wondering exactly where the fuck that clip round the earhole came from.

[The 5th Benitle]

I am willing to be proved wrong.  But until then I'd like to have the 'freedom' to post on here, without my view being deemed 'negative' and subsequently wiped out.

You have the freedom to express those views. Just not in every thread on the forum repeating the same thing over and over again. I don't know why but you seem to think this thread is addressed at you personally - it isn't.

[TSC]

As I said mate, I'd hope you'd carry on doing that. That's not what this is about. Its about some people persistently posting their opinions irrespective of what they are, in every thread non stop.

OK no prob. 

[CraigDS]

OK.  Craig (if that's yer name) I know you're always in every thread re the owners defending/in support of them.  I think i've nailed my colours to the mast alongside a few others.  I don't like them.  I don't trust them.  They got a bye ball from taking over from Gillet and Hicks.  But they're fuckijng useless.  No strategy, never here for any game, etc. 

I am willing to be proved wrong.  But until then I'd like to have the 'freedom' to post on here, without my view being deemed 'negative' and subsequently wiped out.

Yeah, and I don't think the mods have an issue with that (I know I don't). They have an issue with every thread being turned into a debate about it. Or every thread being filled with negative stuff when it's not the place for it. If there is a thread about the owners then fine. If they do something specific then comment on it and question away. But they don't want a thread about Suarez, for example, being ruined by the continual negatively about the owners which is happening.

And yeah, would be a strange username if my name wasnt Craig!

[Hinesy]

cheers

[TSC]

You have the freedom to express those views. Just not in every thread on the forum repeating the same thing over and over again. I don't know why but you seem to think this thread is addressed at you personally - it isn't.

I don't really.  I just have a prob with the thread (and obviously title) in itself. 

[rednich85]

Where has the humour gone?

Fucking this.

This place used to be a real laugh, full of real 'characters'.

Feels far too sanistised these days.

Threads like this are exhibit A.

This is a great forum/community. In terms of actual engaging football debate...not so much these days. Its just too god damn big and too many idiots have broadband.

[MerseysideBrum]

I've read RAWK for years and only recently joined because I realised I could join using my Uni of Liverpool email as my parents have my ISP's one. I've noticed lots of drivel posted by people who just don't really seem to enjoy football. The ups and downs are all part of the game. I tend to just ignore the people who are obviously just asking for angry response and engage with people who are willing to have a reasonable debate about Liverpool FC. This forum is by far the best i've come across of any football team. The detail put into many of the threads such as round table etc is second to none. So why not just respect each others opinions and not go trying to aggravate fellow fans.

Majority of people on this forum support Liverpool. Go direct your hate and negativity at other clubs.

[TSC]

Yeah, and I don't think the mods have an issue with that (I know I don't). They have an issue with every thread being turned into a debate about it. Or every thread being filled with negative stuff when it's not the place for it. If there is a thread about the owners then fine. If they do something specific then comment on it and question away. But they don't want a thread about Suarez, for example, being ruined by the continual negatively about the owners which is happening.

And yeah, would be a strange username if my name wasnt Craig!

Fair enough.  My gripe generally is that threads re the owners are often binned, usually when the debate's getting interesting.  From a totally selfish point of view I come in off work ready to engage and the fucker's binned.  And when you read through it you wonder why it's been binned.  Why's that?

[The 5th Benitle]

I don't really.  I just have a prob with the thread (and obviously title) in itself. 

So by extension you welcome threads being derailed, you think that PERSISTENT negativity is fine and have no problem with people spinning agendas? OK. I think you need to look at the word persistent as a key one here. We take your point about those who persistently (and sometimes boringly) argue from a more positive standpoint but let's be honest, they are arguing with those who are persistently negative. That's the way it works.

[CraigDS]

Fair enough.  My gripe generally is that threads re the owners are often binned, usually when the debate's getting interesting.  From a totally selfish point of view I come in off work ready to engage and the fucker's binned.  And when you read through it you wonder why it's been binned.  Why's that?

Don't ask me, I don't do the binning!

I don't mind the debates personally (I mind some of the crap that gets posted but generally they are pretty good).

I see why the mods have taken this stance now though as it has got a little ridiculous in other threads where the debates shouldn't be happening.

[The 5th Benitle]

Fucking this.

This place used to be a real laugh, full of real 'characters'.

Feels far too sanistised these days.

Threads like this are exhibit A.

This is a great forum/community. In terms of actual engaging football debate...not so much these days. Its just too god damn big and too many idiots have broadband.

You have completely the wrong end of the stick. That's the whole point, we're trying to get it back to what it was. That much is obvious from the first page - read it again.

[SP]

I don't really.  I just have a prob with the thread (and obviously title) in itself. 

The persistent negativity of the title is not just referring to negativity about FSG. There are other posters who harbour loathing for the manager, or particular players and feel obliged to mention said opinion whenever an opportunity arises (or can be forced). And it is so very corrosive to the fabric of the place.

[Hinesy]

I'm locking this for the night. It's bedtime and we need a break and it'll end up with pissed posters grumbling. Open tomorrow.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

And re-opened for business.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Don't ask me, I don't do the binning!

I don't mind the debates personally (I mind some of the crap that gets posted but generally they are pretty good).

I see why the mods have taken this stance now though as it has got a little ridiculous in other threads where the debates shouldn't be happening.

When you read it through you won't see the posts that have been deleted so you only get a very partial picture.  If we are modding to the best of our ability then it should not be obvious after the fact to see why any thread was binned because of the work we have alreaady done in an attempt to keep the thread going.  The binning is only the final act of mercy when our attempts at surgery have failed.

[john_mac]

Liverpool fans are not the enemy, remember that.
 

Problem is, some of them are.

[rednich85]

You have completely the wrong end of the stick. That's the whole point, we're trying to get it back to what it was. That much is obvious from the first page - read it again.

I've read it.

I didnt get the wrong end of the stick.

[JohnHobbes]

Glad to see this happening. So many threads have gone from discussing something interesting, whether it's new or just a new clever variant of an old topic, just to be derailed by the same old posters and their agendas to the point it's locked.

Hopefully this will bring back a bit more sanity and enjoyability to the forum though from reading through this thread, it seems a few don't see it that way and more of a diktat on what will be discussed sadly. A forum only works if there are ground rules (same as if you were having a discussion in a pub) and it isn't just all about "internet winning" as was said above.

[LFC when it suits]

So by extension you welcome threads being derailed, you think that PERSISTENT negativity is fine and have no problem with people spinning agendas? OK. I think you need to look at the word persistent as a key one here. We take your point about those who persistently (and sometimes boringly) argue from a more positive standpoint but let's be honest, they are arguing with those who are persistently negative. That's the way it works.

My issue is how do you define persistenly negative and persistently positive? It's a very vauge term. Does it mean posting the same opinion in multiple threads? Or does it mean posting the same opinion in the same thread? How many negative or positive posts before it is considered persistent? Likewise, how often? Is it, every day, or every week?

I think stuff like this should be clarified so people can know the boundaries beforehand. Otherwsie, people will just end up have action taken against them for what they feel is voicing an opinion but for what a mod feels is "persistent negativity".

[elpistolero7]

Been on of the culprits of this, seeing as I genuinely believe the opposite of most people here about FSG. Will make a considered effort to try and positively contribute to other discussions about players, transfer targets and pre/post match discussions.

Apologies for my own part in this mods, and just for the record, I think this is a good idea and will make the site a lot more peaceful without the constant bickering and negativity (been a twat myself at times admittedly) and a better place to hang around for all. 

[west_london_red]

The biggest concern for me (which the mods policy should help address) is the boy who cried wolf scenario, that if something sinister is going on that many of us (me included) ignore the signs and just think 'oh, its Al/Rossi/Walshy etc again, they've always hated FSG, lets just ignore them' and that with the amount of criticism FSG get (a lot of it unfair in my opinion) we become immune to it.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Where has the humour gone?......Far, far, far! To fucking serious.

The Kop was built on it's cutting humour, not, on it's understanding of a formation or the day to day financial running's of the club...yes, we heard/had an inkling what was going on, but, and this is a massive but - fundamentally it was built on it's camaraderie and gallows humour.

You lot for me, have lost sight what we should all be about.

Liverpool fans are not the enemy, remember that.

Spot on as usual mate.

INS
Taking the piss
Homebaked Pies
Walking Boots
Brendan Rodgers big fat head
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OUTS
John W Henry's Money Bags
Constant griping
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Big fuck off headphones