Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire general thread: BOOK AND SHOW spoilers galore

[JoeCole]

"... Harrenhal has withered every hand to touch it."
"Then give it to Lord Frey."

  Sansa is quickly becoming my favourite character

[Redcap]

Yeah A Feast for Crows was a huge book for Sansa. She grew an enormous amount as a character. I'm looking forward to her having a massive part in the conclusion of the series.

[Red Viper]

So as the third season approaches what do people think will be included from ASOS and what will be changed or possibly put back a season?

Am I remembering right that Vargo Hoat has been cut out or changed?

I'm assuming the Red Wedding will be the conclusion of the series.

[Schwindlig]

Fuck all this chitter chatter I think the question that needs to be addressed is as follows. Is there another series of books on a similar par with ASOIAF? I finished the last installment around 4 months ago, have tried one or two other books, but as far as I can see nothing compares.

My cousin who works in publishing said she hasn't read anything that comes close, which made me despair as she has read a great deal in her time.

[Redcap]

Bumped.

Spoilers starting to fly around without even spoiler tags in the show thread now.

[Rusty Oysterburger]

So then, Red Wedding at the end of this season. The Joff's wedding half way through season four?

I think we'll start seeing a lot of changes next season, including bringing parts of books 4 and 5 forward.

[Malaysian Kopite]

So then, Red Wedding at the end of this season. The Joff's wedding half way through season four?

I think we'll start seeing a lot of changes next season, including bringing parts of books 4 and 5 forward.

If they're going to end this season with the Red Wedding they'll have to bring quite a bit of books 4/5 forward or they won't have enough material for next season.

[Studog]

So then, Red Wedding at the end of this season. The Joff's wedding half way through season four?

I think we'll start seeing a lot of changes next season, including bringing parts of books 4 and 5 forward.

Yea red wedding I think will be in episode 9, similar to last series, where blackwater was ep 9, then you tie up in ep 10 as well as leaving a good hanger for the next series.

Don’t forget books 4 and 5 kind of run concurrently until about 2/3 of the way through book 5 so this is kind of expected

If we get joff’s wedding next season then that’s when we get the red viper who I think is boss.

Is it bad that I’m buzzing for when Jon sends sam away to Oldtown and we get that arc?

I wonder what they’ll do with Gendry as he already seems a bigger character than in the books. Reckon they’ll keep him with Arya a little longer? Or will they just send him off with stoneheart and that?

Looking forward to the red wedding as Catelyn gets on my tits no end!

[Redcap]

Actually I think we'll be well into book 5 for Dany next season. If I'm not mistaken Astapor takes places towards the middle of ASoS, and it looks like it's about to all go down near the start of season 3.

Although having said that given all the changes to Dany's arc in the show already, they might just write out some of the less necessary rubbish from book 5 altogether.

[Rusty Oysterburger]

Yeah, Show Dany is both jumbled (Barristan showing up here instead of Qarth with his ships) and she's already bought the Unsullied without brutally Friendzoning Jorah. Has Daario been confirmed for this season?

Next season is going to have a number of high points like Joff's wedding, The Battle of the Wall, Littlefinger and Sansa in The Vale, Tywin on the shitter, the Lady Stoneheart reveal.

I think they'll struggle to get more than a season out of 4 and 5 combined. Those books are full of meandering plotlines that could easily be cut down (Tyrion, Dany) and very little incident (the Others are STILL sort of coming to Westeros but not yet) that doesn't propel the story forwards in the same way the first three books do. I think they are necessary for the story but they won't make good TV. Its all basically set up for the finale.

And with even more characters and places to cram in like Dorne, Quentyn, the Sand Snakes, Victarion, Jon Connington, Aegon it could easily become an unwieldy mess. I've a lot of faith in the producers to pull it off though. 

[Draex]

Dany becomes a weak character in the books so it's in the best interests of the show to change some of her storyline.

[Malaysian Kopite]

I think they'll struggle to get more than a season out of 4 and 5 combined. Those books are full of meandering plotlines that could easily be cut down (Tyrion, Dany) and very little incident (the Others are STILL sort of coming to Westeros but not yet) that doesn't propel the story forwards in the same way the first three books do. I think they are necessary for the story but they won't make good TV. Its all basically set up for the finale.

If they're going to trim all that though I think the series will catch up too quickly with the books.

[Studog]

Yeah, Show Dany is both jumbled (Barristan showing up here instead of Qarth with his ships) and she's already bought the Unsullied without brutally Friendzoning Jorah. Has Daario been confirmed for this season?

Next season is going to have a number of high points like Joff's wedding, The Battle of the Wall, Littlefinger and Sansa in The Vale, Tywin on the shitter, the Lady Stoneheart reveal.

I think they'll struggle to get more than a season out of 4 and 5 combined. Those books are full of meandering plotlines that could easily be cut down (Tyrion, Dany) and very little incident (the Others are STILL sort of coming to Westeros but not yet) that doesn't propel the story forwards in the same way the first three books do. I think they are necessary for the story but they won't make good TV. Its all basically set up for the finale.

And with even more characters and places to cram in like Dorne, Quentyn, the Sand Snakes, Victarion, Jon Connington, Aegon it could easily become an unwieldy mess. I've a lot of faith in the producers to pull it off though.

Yea Daario is confirmed, there's images of him knocking about. I thought the bloke would've looked different but he is in it. His scenes will be interesting to say the least!

I imagine they'll add more stuff in by the time they get to series 5 and 6 (books 4/5) so we'll see. I reckon we're looking at 9/10 series total for this, by the time GRRM has books 6 and 7 sorted each of them will probably be huge books and rammed with material, considering how much the last 2 slowed.

[Rusty Oysterburger]

If they're going to trim all that though I think the series will catch up too quickly with the books.

Yeah that's the big question, do they go off on their own if they catch up? They can't just put the show on hold if we're still waiting for book 6. GRRM is heavily involved with the show and has told Beinhoff and Weiss the broad plans for the last two books so I don't see why they shouldn't. It would be fascinating if that did happen, like reading a film novelisation afterwards.

The minimum time is two and bit years to get WoW out. Maybe 3 depending on how they adapt 4 & 5. I'm assuming WoW will be full of interesting, important  stuff all happening at once, everything moved into place for the final battle, so they'll probably split that into two seasons as well.

Book Dany really needs a kick up the arse from where we left her. Its ridiculous that she hasn't set off for Westeros yet. All the Meerenese court intrigue from book 5 is so shit compared to the King's Landing stuff as well, I wouldn't mind seeing that story changed dramatically. Maybe get Tyrion and Victarion to her sooner?

[Rusty Oysterburger]

Yea Daario is confirmed, there's images of him knocking about. I thought the bloke would've looked different but he is in it. His scenes will be interesting to say the least!

Great, I'll have a look for that. Think he'll be an awesome character if he's performed right. Didn't Jason Momoa ask to play him as well? That would've been interesting, they were great to together in season one.

[Studog]

Great, I'll have a look for that. Think he'll be an awesome character if he's performed right. Didn't Jason Momoa ask to play him as well? That would've been interesting, they were great to together in season one.

from what i remember, the tv show one doesn't have facial hair, he'd better have the 2 daggers!!!

did the show have astapor with the pyramids? I can't remember :/

[Mr Dilkington]

I think the Benioff and Weiss are going to have a much tougher job in the next season or 2 than they have in the previous couple. Can they juggle all the storylines and streamline the less important points? Can they hammer home just how important what's going on beyond the wall is to the overall story?

My initial impression of the first episode is mainly that Mance Rayder is nothing like I expected him to be like. The other issue I have is that they have all but killed off Ser Loras' character. Why the hell have they reduced him to a quivering little boy in the show, when in the book he oozed coolness and ability? This is the guy who has defeated many of the best knights in Westeros, and is admired by Jaime for his skills with a sword, yet here he's completely wasted. A real shame.

Can't wait to read the TV show thread after the Red Wedding.

[Rusty Oysterburger]

I think the Benioff and Weiss are going to have a much tougher job in the next season or 2 than they have in the previous couple. Can they juggle all the storylines and streamline the less important points? Can they hammer home just how important what's going on beyond the wall is to the overall story?

My initial impression of the first episode is mainly that Mance Rayder is nothing like I expected him to be like. The other issue I have is that they have all but killed off Ser Loras' character. Why the hell have they reduced him to a quivering little boy in the show, when in the book he oozed coolness and ability? This is the guy who has defeated many of the best knights in Westeros, and is admired by Jaime for his skills with a sword, yet here he's completely wasted. A real shame.

Can't wait to read the TV show thread after the Red Wedding.

I think one of the biggest problems with the books is the lack of immediacy and threat from The Others, its all sort of vague and portentous. We're told so often that its going to be so bad when they come but we're shown barely anything. Fortunately the show isn't stuck with the POV structure of the books so we can see it, the last shot of season two did a very good job of selling just how bad they are.

Its weird because when I read the books Mance left no real impression on me, didn't find him that interesting or memorable for some reason. Ciaran Hinds is a superb actor though so I'm sure he'll make the role his own.

The lad playing Loras is easily the worst actor on the show as well, which doesn't help. He plays it panto style which he cant really pull off. I've no idea why they made him into a big quilt, just can't imagine him leading the charge into certain death on Dragonstone.

[Malaysian Kopite]

I think one of the biggest problems with the books is the lack of immediacy and threat from The Others, its all sort of vague and portentous. We're told so often that its going to be so bad when they come but we're shown barely anything.

Removing the superb opening battle was a very poor choice IMO. We missed out on a zombie polar bear  Not to mention that set the tone for the rest of the book. That the Others were coming and everyone was hopelessly outmatched.

[Rusty Oysterburger]

Here's the episode titles for this season, speculate away...

3×01 – “Valar Dohaeris”
3×02 – “Dark Wings, Dark Words”
3×03 – “Walk of Punishment”
3×04 – “And Now His Watch is Ended”
3×05 – “Kissed by Fire”
3×06 – “The Climb”
3×07 – “The Bear and the Maiden Fair”
3×08 – “Second Sons”
3×09 – “The Rains of Castamere” YEERRRSSSS!
3×10 – “Mhysa”

[RojoLeón]

3×09 – “The Rains of Castamere” YEERRRSSSS!

You think they will off with Joff this series?

[Rusty Oysterburger]

You think they will off with Joff this series?

Nah, it'll be early to half way through season four. The timings won't fit with the Red Wedding being at the end of this season.

[RojoLeón]

Nah, it'll be early to half way through season four. The timings won't fit with the Red Wedding being at the end of this season.

I hear you - I just wonder if they might have decided to play with their own chronology a bit. I last read the books 2 years ago, shortly after aDwD came out, so my reminiscence is a little hazy.

But, you're right; I think they would have to use both weddings in the same series as they are kind of juxtaposed.

I'm curious to see how they play this out - is not like they don't have a massive amount of potential material to work with. Some of what looked dull on paper can play out better on the screen - Tyrion and the dull to read endless feasts and detailed depictions of food in aDwD, for example. Maybe that could be entertaining to watch if Dinklage is in good form.

[Studog]

Here's the episode titles for this season, speculate away...

3×01 – “Valar Dohaeris”
3×02 – “Dark Wings, Dark Words”
3×03 – “Walk of Punishment”
3×04 – “And Now His Watch is Ended”
3×05 – “Kissed by Fire”
3×06 – “The Climb”
3×07 – “The Bear and the Maiden Fair”
3×08 – “Second Sons”
3×09 – “The Rains of Castamere” YEERRRSSSS!
3×10 – “Mhysa”

I assume episode 4 could be when Mormont is killed? Then 5 could be Jon and Ygritte having their sex-a-thon underground? Or it could be when she dies, depends how quickly they move his storyline on. He has one of the most developing lines from here on really doesn't he.

Any idea what Mhysa will be? Name doesn't ring a bell

[Red Viper]

Does anyone else think that 'The Rains of Castamere' might not have the same impact on non-book readers? I know they introduced it last series but I don't think the significance of it has really been driven home yet in the TV show.

[Malaysian Kopite]

I assume episode 4 could be when Mormont is killed? Then 5 could be Jon and Ygritte having their sex-a-thon underground? Or it could be when she dies, depends how quickly they move his storyline on. He has one of the most developing lines from here on really doesn't he.

Any idea what Mhysa will be? Name doesn't ring a bell

No chance, considering the next episode is called The Climb.

Does anyone else think that 'The Rains of Castamere' might not have the same impact on non-book readers? I know they introduced it last series but I don't think the significance of it has really been driven home yet in the TV show.

Don't think they'll mind at all, it's just the name of an episode.

No idea who/what Mhysa is.

[Studog]

No chance, considering the next episode is called The Climb.
Don't think they'll mind at all, it's just the name of an episode.

No idea who/what Mhysa is.

Good spot, didn't see that! I'll assume its when they go into that cave or when they end up together for the first time. Really looking forward to the climb, its class in the book.

Mhysa could relate to Dany's story, sounds like its from that neck of the woods, they're not afraid of altering a character name, could be Mereenese?

Does anyone else think that 'The Rains of Castamere' might not have the same impact on non-book readers? I know they introduced it last series but I don't think the significance of it has really been driven home yet in the TV show.

I imagine we'll get a really explanation of the rains of castmere sometime before the episode, maybe even within the episode, and then the red wedding will happen? Don't forget, only a small number of people will read the episode titles before the show, so on the whole, it won't affect them?

[Rusty Oysterburger]

Mysha is Meerenese/Valayrian for 'Mother'. When Dany frees the slaves they all chant it at her.

[Malaysian Kopite]

Mysha is Meerenese/Valayrian for 'Mother'. When Dany frees the slaves they all chant it at her.

I see. Dany's arc in book 3 starts off well but gets repetitive afterwards. I can't see the series showing just battle after battle. Maybe this season will end with the capture of Yunkai?

[Rusty Oysterburger]

Does anyone else think that 'The Rains of Castamere' might not have the same impact on non-book readers? I know they introduced it last series but I don't think the significance of it has really been driven home yet in the TV show.

I know they played the song over the credits in one episode, cant remember now, did they bring up Tywin's backstory as well? Its superb and really ties in with what's going on happen at the Red Wedding, and of course the song that will be playing there. I think cross cutting a monologue from Tywin about his past with the wedding would be a superb bit of television.

I think they've called the episode that because calling it Red Wedding would lead to non-book readers easily being spoiled if they looked it up.

[Red Viper]

What I meant earlier was I think that non book readers won't understand the significance of the song unless we have some sort of exposition giving the backstory that ties in with it.

I know the song appeared in Blackwater and it was referred to as a lannister song, but I think it needs more of a mention than that for non book readers.

[Studog]

What I meant earlier was I think that non book readers won't understand the significance of the song unless we have some sort of exposition giving the backstory that ties in with it.

I know the song appeared in Blackwater and it was referred to as a lannister song, but I think it needs more of a mention than that for non book readers.

Is it not explained in the book with regard to Rob marrying his bird? With them not doing that I get that it may be lost, but I imagine they'll explain it better nearer the time. Maybe even as far as someone saying this is Roose bolton's castamere and then having to explain the tale?

Mysha is Meerenese/Valayrian for 'Mother'. When Dany frees the slaves they all chant it at her.

Ah ok, can see where they are going with this one then. I imagine it'll be her arriving at Mereen? Can't see them doing much but one mid season episode with Yunkai as she doesn't sack it does she? She just gets their slaves and carries on?

[El_Pistolero]

Amazon just delivered my books. Can't wait to get into them.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Amazon just delivered my books. Can't wait to get into them.

Lucky man, to have it all in front of you.

Just started re-reading book 3. Superb.

[Red Ant]

Must say I'm really looking forwards to Danys arc this season as well. I really enjoyed her in slavers bay and with the 10th episode title I'm guessing once again she'll be heavily involved in the finale.

Can't believe they have cut Belwas, I loved his character. Maybe they'll save him for when she arrives in Meereen as he is originally a pit fighter from there. I believe because her presence in Meereen has been strung out for so long in the books that they will probably beef up the rest of her story in slavers bay and she may not even reach Meereen until the end of season 4.

Otherwise she'll have bugger all of interest in later seasons as would Tyrion.

[Niru Red4ever]

Quite surprised to see Red Wedding as potentially being in Episode 9. Always assumed they will cover both the weddings in the same series; doubt they will have any time to off Joff in the last episode. My reasoning was that viewers naturally look to Robb as vengeance for the injustice to Eddard; so killing him and then ending the series will drive a lot of the viewers away.

    Though I am guessing TV only viewers will have less sympathy for Robb seeing as how the Talisa story was told. In the books it seemed to me that Robb was the worthy successor to Ned and I was so furious when he was killed that I literally put the book down and swore not to read again (I started after a week though).

    I agree that the lack of battle with the White Walkers was a major cop-out; shouldn't have been that expensive either. Just hope they show the assault on the wall properly (though that would cost quite a bit).

[Redcap]

Though I am guessing TV only viewers will have less sympathy for Robb seeing as how the Talisa story was told. In the books it seemed to me that Robb was the worthy successor to Ned and I was so furious when he was killed that I literally put the book down and swore not to read again (I started after a week though).

I think the showrunners will have done a poor job if viewers weren't both shocked and angered by Robb's death. I don't think reducing the viewers' sympathy for Robb would have been what they were going for.

I wonder where Jaime/Brienne will be by the end of season 4. I'm guessing perhaps somewhere in the middle to late book 4- which would mean they would be fast running out of material for the next season if GRRM doesn't get on with it.

My estimate is based on the probable fact that "3×07 – “The Bear and the Maiden Fair” will contain the scene with the bear fight at Harrenhal. I might be a bit off in timing but for memory not a whole lot more happens in ASoS after this- they simply go to King's Landing afterwards and that's that.

[Malaysian Kopite]

I wonder where Jaime/Brienne will be by the end of season 4. I'm guessing perhaps somewhere in the middle to late book 4- which would mean they would be fast running out of material for the next season if GRRM doesn't get on with it.

My estimate is based on the probable fact that "3×07 – “The Bear and the Maiden Fair” will contain the scene with the bear fight at Harrenhal. I might be a bit off in timing but for memory not a whole lot more happens in ASoS after this- they simply go to King's Landing afterwards and that's that.

Yep, I think they'll end Jamie's arc after he saves Brienne. That's his 180 complete.

[jooneyisdagod]

Quite surprised to see Red Wedding as potentially being in Episode 9. Always assumed they will cover both the weddings in the same series; doubt they will have any time to off Joff in the last episode. My reasoning was that viewers naturally look to Robb as vengeance for the injustice to Eddard; so killing him and then ending the series will drive a lot of the viewers away.

    Though I am guessing TV only viewers will have less sympathy for Robb seeing as how the Talisa story was told. In the books it seemed to me that Robb was the worthy successor to Ned and I was so furious when he was killed that I literally put the book down and swore not to read again (I started after a week though).

    I agree that the lack of battle with the White Walkers was a major cop-out; shouldn't have been that expensive either. Just hope they show the assault on the wall properly (though that would cost quite a bit).

See it similarly.  It feels Americanised almost with the sugary love story.  I read that post and had myself nodding along with it at every juncture.

[Malaysian Kopite]

See it similarly.  It feels Americanised almost with the sugary love story.  I read that post and had myself nodding along with it at every juncture.

What about the part that his death will drive viewers away?