Author Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire general thread: BOOK AND SHOW spoilers galore (Read 234482 times)

Redcap · « **Reply #3120 on:** July 18, 2017, 11:59:46 pm »

Quote from: bobadicious on July 18, 2017, 10:35:47 pm

So with the new season kicking off is there any sign of Winds Of Winter being released? I must admit, my excitement for it is at all time low at this point.

Maybe around two years ago people were joking that he would never finish the books.

Now when I talk to them, they're mostly not joking any more.

Red Viper · « **Reply #3121 on:** July 19, 2017, 08:17:36 am »

I doubt we're ever getting a finish to the books. We might get TWOW but I think the TV series will be long finished by the time we do and by that point I'll be even less bothered than I am now.

Redcap · « **Reply #3122 on:** July 19, 2017, 11:43:21 pm »

Quote from: A change without it backfiring! on July 19, 2017, 08:17:36 am

I doubt we're ever getting a finish to the books. We might get TWOW but I think the TV series will be long finished by the time we do and by that point I'll be even less bothered than I am now.

To be honest, I suspect GRRM has actually given up the ghost in his mind, and has fallen back to comforting himself with the knowledge that the show has already told his story in some form, so he doesn't owe anyone anything. He's just not prepared to actually admit that to anyone publicly yet. Especially when, you'd think, he's already more than half way through writing TWOW.

bobadicious · « **Reply #3123 on:** July 23, 2017, 10:03:32 am »

Update from Martin's blog...

And, yes, I know you all want to know about THE WINDS OF WINTER too. I've seen some truly weird reports about WOW on the internet of late, by 'journalists' who make their stories up out of whole cloth. I don't know which story is more absurd, the one that says the book is finished and I've been sitting on it for some nefarious reason, or the one that says I have no pages. Both 'reports' are equally false and equally moronic. I am still working on it, I am still months away (how many? good question), I still have good days and bad days, and that's all I care to say. Whether WINDS or the first volume of FIRE AND BLOOD will be the first to hit the bookstores is hard to say at this juncture, but I do think you will have a Westeros book from me in 2018... and who knows, maybe two. A boy can dream...

Redcap · « **Reply #3124 on:** July 23, 2017, 03:31:47 pm »

Quote from: bobadicious on July 23, 2017, 10:03:32 am

Update from Martin's blog...

And, yes, I know you all want to know about THE WINDS OF WINTER too. I've seen some truly weird reports about WOW on the internet of late, by 'journalists' who make their stories up out of whole cloth. I don't know which story is more absurd, the one that says the book is finished and I've been sitting on it for some nefarious reason, or the one that says I have no pages. Both 'reports' are equally false and equally moronic. I am still working on it, I am still months away (how many? good question), I still have good days and bad days, and that's all I care to say. Whether WINDS or the first volume of FIRE AND BLOOD will be the first to hit the bookstores is hard to say at this juncture, but I do think you will have a Westeros book from me in 2018... and who knows, maybe two. A boy can dream...

Ah yes. The never ending pile of other Westeros miscellanea that his fans have been begging for him to prioritise ahead of the main series. I like that he's sneakily begun setting expectations for Winds to not arrive in 2017, nor 2018, but possibly 2019 now. The man is hopeless.

bobadicious · « **Reply #3125 on:** July 23, 2017, 04:01:38 pm »

Quote from: Redcap on July 23, 2017, 03:31:47 pm

Ah yes. The never ending pile of other Westeros miscellanea that his fans have been begging for him to prioritise ahead of the main series. I like that he's sneakily begun setting expectations for Winds to not arrive in 2017, nor 2018, but possibly 2019 now. The man is hopeless.

He's a complete ballbag. What is Fire and Blood anyway?

JHova2427 · « **Reply #3126 on:** July 24, 2017, 09:18:34 pm »

Quote from: Redcap on July 23, 2017, 03:31:47 pm

Ah yes. The never ending pile of other Westeros miscellanea that his fans have been begging for him to prioritise ahead of the main series. I like that he's sneakily begun setting expectations for Winds to not arrive in 2017, nor 2018, but possibly 2019 now. The man is hopeless.

Genuinely not sure what his end game is. To a certain extent he treats fans of ASOIAF with contempt the way he delays finishing these books. Sounds melodramatic, but it's almost like he takes a bit of glee from milking the writing of Winds.

As the show further deviates from the books it goes a bit more and more downhill dialogue and plot hole wise. I fear by the end of Game of Thrones a bad taste will be left in my mouth, and I wont even be interested in finishing the books.

Redcap · « **Reply #3127 on:** July 25, 2017, 12:50:27 am »

Quote from: JHova2427 on July 24, 2017, 09:18:34 pm

Genuinely not sure what his end game is. To a certain extent he treats fans of ASOIAF with contempt the way he delays finishing these books. Sounds melodramatic, but it's almost like he takes a bit of glee from milking the writing of Winds.

As the show further deviates from the books it goes a bit more and more downhill dialogue and plot hole wise. I fear by the end of Game of Thrones a bad taste will be left in my mouth, and I wont even be interested in finishing the books.

He has no end game.

One of the things that always annoys me about manga/anime is that they tend to start with a good idea which are good for a season or a few volumes, but are then kept alive by customer demand for more more more. We keep getting more chapters every week because there's an economic imperative to keep the gravy train moving, even if the author is short of good ideas.

In a way, ASoIaF is the same. He started with a good idea. He didn't know exactly how he was going to end it, except unlike the Japanese manga industry, he isn't bound by publisher demands for weekly updates. So rather than pumping out trash week after week, he just stays in a permanent writer's funk. He keeps his mood up by writing other stuff that requires a bit of inspiration and craft to get done, rather than careful navigation and tinkering with what's by now, a massive, unwieldy machine. At this stage I think the very best thing that could happen is for him to say: "stuff it", and just write something that's less good, that makes a bit less sense, and get it finished. He's not going to magically untie the narrative knots at his age, and come up with something that's 100% great and satisfying. It's just too late.

I don't think he's taking any pleasure in his fans getting pissed. I think he's stuck in the longest 11th hour of study before going to an exam he knows he hasn't studied enough to pass. He's procrastinating doing everything but what he's supposed to be doing, and the anxiety builds with every month that passes. That's why he's taking this bizarre approach to communicating with his fans - the "la dee da, you might get the Winds of Winter next year, a boy can dream" kinda garbage. I don't think he's able to communicate his anxiety and how lost he is, which would help him.

Lastrador · « **Reply #3128 on:** July 25, 2017, 02:36:14 am »

Pretty much the above. After reading the last two books I felt like he had fallen off with the story of asoiaf and in love with the universe that he had created. Everything that has happened ever since has pretty much confirmed this. The endless amount of material he has created about the history of Westeros/Essos, all those side projects and he's now working with HBO for possible prequels/spin offs to Game of Thrones.

I really feel like he would love to finish the books and he takes no pleasure on delaying it, but his heart is not in the story anymore in my opinion, and the show passing the books might have killed what little love he had left for the story. He knows how the story ends, he has repeatedly said so over the years, but the way to getting there either doesn't appeal to him anymore or he doesn't know how to get there in a non predictable/conventional way, there's only so many major characters deaths and twists you can make after all.

I also think all those new POV he introduced on the last two books, to expand on the universe and show us what an amazing world builder he is, has made it impossible for him to tie all those narratives lines in a satisfying way. Did the story really needed to have the same amount of Greyjoy's POV characters as it did Stark's for example? He backed himself into a corner satisfying those world building indulgences, and he now has a narrative knot so impossible to untie that it will probably mean he won't finish the story.

Redcap · « **Reply #3129 on:** July 25, 2017, 03:23:03 am »

I think the world building stuff is basically procrastination, to be honest.

There's a project management deficit here with the talent. His publishers should be having serious conversations with him to get him over the line. He needs to be talked to about limiting his commitments, streamlining his plot threads and sticking to some deadlines. But those aren't easy conversations to have. If he were 25 and he was a young colt on his his first or second novel, you can exercise influence over him. But he's an old sensitive guy, who also happens to be the only guy who can get this done.

And in the end, he is a sensitive guy who does feel the pressure and hurt from the criticisms. He's probably quite protective of his vision, for what it's worth, and I think getting it done isn't the highest priority if it isn't done his way.

I think we'll get 'Winds' next year, which in a way is almost annoying because it'll raise hopes that maybe 'Dream' will eventually arrive to complete the series. But I suspect the chances of that happening are extremely slim.

Redcap · « **Reply #3130 on:** August 8, 2017, 03:28:55 am »

Has anyone noticed that the Red God hasn't been mentioned much this season? I wonder if it's just because Mel is AWOL, or if the Red God/Drowned God stuff is being sneakily done away with by showrunners. IMO that's one of the trickiest things to resolve in the books. GRRM has teased and teased at this idea that there are gods that play an important role, but it's never been dealt with conclusively.

Redcap · « **Reply #3131 on:** September 1, 2017, 08:41:36 pm »

So, if Jon is Aegon Targaryen, does this mean Rhaegar named multiple sons Aegon Targaryen, noting that his first born son was also named Aegon? Or do we think Jon's name just isn't going to be Aegon in the books?

oojason · « **Reply #3132 on:** September 1, 2017, 09:52:57 pm »

Quote from: Redcap on September 1, 2017, 08:41:36 pm

So, if Jon is Aegon Targaryen, does this mean Rhaegar named multiple sons Aegon Targaryen, noting that his first born son was also named Aegon? Or do we think Jon's name just isn't going to be Aegon in the books?

Dos seem Rhaegar named both sons Aegon - according to ALT Shift X there are 13 characters in GOT named Aegon Targaryen!

https://twitter.com/AltShiftX/status/903642306321948672

Red Viper · « **Reply #3133 on:** September 1, 2017, 11:36:43 pm »

Quote from: Redcap on September 1, 2017, 08:41:36 pm

So, if Jon is Aegon Targaryen, does this mean Rhaegar named multiple sons Aegon Targaryen, noting that his first born son was also named Aegon? Or do we think Jon's name just isn't going to be Aegon in the books?

Rhaegar was dead when Jon was born. I doubt his name will be Aegon in the books, especially as we already have (possibly fake) Aegon

abs-ibs · « **Reply #3134 on:** September 2, 2017, 01:48:51 am »

I thought Lyanna said Aegar to Ned in the show? Not Aegon. Aegar Targaryan sounds pretty cool.

jooneyisdagod · « **Reply #3135 on:** September 2, 2017, 02:14:47 am »

Quote from: abs-ibs on September 2, 2017, 01:48:51 am

I thought Lyanna said Aegar to Ned in the show? Not Aegon. Aegar Targaryan sounds pretty cool.

Aegar Targarayan. Hmm that really gels. It also makes me wonder if the flower that Dany sees in her vision at the undying house is an Aegerose?

mgs88 · « **Reply #3136 on:** September 2, 2017, 04:36:24 am »

Is agaer not the real name of egg from the short stories? I thought it was some fan service from d&d

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Redcap · « **Reply #3137 on:** September 2, 2017, 06:38:48 am »

Quote from: mgs88 on September 2, 2017, 04:36:24 am

Is agaer not the real name of egg from the short stories? I thought it was some fan service from d&d

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

That is also Aegon. From Dunk and Egg.

As Jason said, Aegon is a popular name, particularly in the Targaryen family. If Jon were to be crowned, he would actually be the 6th Aegon to sit on the throne.

I wouldn't think anything of it except Jon seems like a reasonable contraction/alias for Aegon. Maybe Lyanna named him Aegon knowing that Rhaegar's other son had died?

Ultimate Bromance · « **Reply #3138 on:** September 2, 2017, 07:16:58 am »

Was Aemon the dragonknight the one Jon pretended to be when playing as a kid? I would have preferred he be named after him, as there were similarities in their stories, as well as the link to the maester. He'll always go by Jon so it doesn't really matter, but I can't imagine Lyanna decided to call him Aegon by herself, they must have discussed it, which shows how obsessed Rhaeger was with the prophecies.

TheRedBaron · « **Reply #3139 on:** September 2, 2017, 10:44:12 am »

That last series was pretty bad wasnt it. I tried to get on board with it but I just couldn't. The writing is worse than I imagined.

SamAteTheRedAcid · « **Reply #3140 on:** September 2, 2017, 12:36:46 pm »

Quote from: TheRedBaron on September 2, 2017, 10:44:12 am

That last series was pretty bad wasnt it. I tried to get on board with it but I just couldn't. The writing is worse than I imagined.

The writers deffo have Aegon their faces...

bobadicious · « **Reply #3141 on:** September 2, 2017, 03:48:02 pm »

Quote from: SamAteTheRedAcid on September 2, 2017, 12:36:46 pm

The writers deffo have Aegon their faces...

Haha aegcellent!

I actually quite enjoyed this season and I think I was purely because I didn't have a vastly superior book to compare it to and i enjoy it for what it was. Ooh dragons...

jillcwhomever · « **Reply #3142 on:** September 2, 2017, 08:07:08 pm »

Quote from: TheRedBaron on September 2, 2017, 10:44:12 am

That last series was pretty bad wasnt it. I tried to get on board with it but I just couldn't. The writing is worse than I imagined.

I thought this series was among the best strangely enough, opinions hey.

Sir Psycho Sexy · « **Reply #3143 on:** September 2, 2017, 09:29:06 pm »

Hard to believe that Stannis isn't even dead in the books yet. I jst hope there's some significant differences from the show e.g Lady Stoneheart

Party Phil · « **Reply #3144 on:** April 25, 2018, 07:50:08 pm »

This motherfucker is just taking the piss now

George RR Martin: a new Game of Thrones book is coming …

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/apr/25/george-rr-martin-winds-winter-not-coming-2018-sixth-volume-game-thrones-targaryen

WhereAngelsPlay · « **Reply #3145 on:** April 25, 2018, 08:18:14 pm »

Quote from: Party Phil on April 25, 2018, 07:50:08 pm

This motherfucker is just taking the piss now

George RR Martin: a new Game of Thrones book is coming …

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/apr/25/george-rr-martin-winds-winter-not-coming-2018-sixth-volume-game-thrones-targaryen

Hahaha

Quote

Aangot
‏ @Aangot
2h2 hours ago
Replying to @GRRMspeaking

This is not The Winds of Winter you chucklefuck
https://twitter.com/Aangot/status/989185063358087168

Red Viper · « **Reply #3146 on:** April 26, 2018, 08:59:25 am »

TWOW is probably never coming out and even if it does then what? We wait another decade for the last book? Pretty sure he'll be dead by then. I highly doubt the series is getting finished now and to be honest I'm not that bothered any more, once the TV series finishes next year I think a lot of people will lose interest and not bother.

Sir Psycho Sexy · « **Reply #3147 on:** April 26, 2018, 10:11:45 am »

yeah, maybe he just doesn't give a fuck about it anymore. though that new book there, i'd hazard a guess that he gave the ideas and info, but didn't do much of the writing. i can't think of any reason why he'd put a lot of time into that instead of TWoW

WhereAngelsPlay · « **Reply #3148 on:** April 26, 2018, 10:16:31 am »

Quote from: Sir Psycho Sexy on April 26, 2018, 10:11:45 am

yeah, maybe he just doesn't give a fuck about it anymore. though that new book there, i'd hazard a guess that he gave the ideas and info, but didn't do much of the writing. i can't think of any reason why he'd put a lot of time into that instead of TWoW

Because of the prequels that are in development I'd guess.

Nobby Reserve · « **Reply #3149 on:** April 26, 2018, 01:54:56 pm »

I think the fucker doesn't know how to end it, so is waiting for the TV series to finish to get some ideas.

Redcap · « **Reply #3150 on:** April 26, 2018, 11:23:01 pm »

Surely most have to agree by now that a half-decent person would put off other projects for the thing fans have been waiting for, for 7 years?

The guy's an asshole. Plain and simple.

jillcwhomever · « **Reply #3151 on:** April 27, 2018, 12:26:25 am »

Wasn't one of the spins off's after GOT supposed to be about the Targaryens? Maybe it background for that?

As someone who writes as well, and suffer from huge writer's block from time to time, I'm not going to condemn him entirely. Sometimes it really is next to impossible finishing off a story, if you can't feel it anymore. $:-\$

bobadicious · « **Reply #3152 on:** April 27, 2018, 01:34:53 pm »

Groan. Time to move on, hes never going to do it.

newrosswaterford · « **Reply #3153 on:** April 27, 2018, 02:00:22 pm »

Quote from: Redcap on April 26, 2018, 11:23:01 pm

Surely most have to agree by now that a half-decent person would put off other projects for the thing fans have been waiting for, for 7 years?

The guy's an asshole. Plain and simple.

Been reading the series since 1996. What do you want exactly? The series finished so you can wipe it off your list?
If he doesn't finish it for whatever reason it doesn't matter. Writing if a form of art, you don't demand these things and expect things to be done well.

If he has lost interest then the story is dead and you move on.

Red Viper · « **Reply #3154 on:** April 27, 2018, 06:41:31 pm »

If he's lost interest then fine but he should come out and say that and stop stringing fans along with vague updates and empty promises.

Angelius · « **Reply #3155 on:** April 27, 2018, 09:25:31 pm »

Let it go, boys. It's not going to happen any time soon, if ever!

Redcap · « **Reply #3156 on:** April 28, 2018, 12:40:20 am »

Quote from: newrosswaterford on April 27, 2018, 02:00:22 pm

Been reading the series since 1996. What do you want exactly? The series finished so you can wipe it off your list?
If he doesn't finish it for whatever reason it doesn't matter. Writing if a form of art, you don't demand these things and expect things to be done well.

If he has lost interest then the story is dead and you move on.

I want the rest of the product I was promised, and continue to be promised that I'll get. I've talked about this at length in this thread, so feel free to find my earlier comments if you're interested in engaging. I'm not arsed to be honest.

jooneyisdagod · « **Reply #3157 on:** April 28, 2018, 03:37:20 am »

Quote from: Redcap on April 28, 2018, 12:40:20 am

I want the rest of the product I was promised, and continue to be promised that I'll get. I've talked about this at length in this thread, so feel free to find my earlier comments if you're interested in engaging. I'm not arsed to be honest.

Art takes time and writers are the worst procrastinators. Could GRRM manage his time better? Probably but the hate he gets is far too much. He's probably not an asshole. Just a writer struggling to stay true to the ethos of his work and tie up loose ends in a hugely complicated story. I would rather he didn't compromise and reached to produce a masterpiece than taking shortcuts and using fast travel like the showrunners have and sully his legacy.

Redcap · « **Reply #3158 on:** April 29, 2018, 11:21:22 pm »

Quote from: jooneyisdagod on April 28, 2018, 03:37:20 am

Art takes time and writers are the worst procrastinators. Could GRRM manage his time better? Probably but the hate he gets is far too much. He's probably not an asshole. Just a writer struggling to stay true to the ethos of his work and tie up loose ends in a hugely complicated story. I would rather he didn't compromise and reached to produce a masterpiece than taking shortcuts and using fast travel like the showrunners have and sully his legacy.

I think it's a bit of a copout to defend every writer on the basis of "art".

There's an nice quote from the first episode of Abstract, a show on Netflix about designers. The focus of that episode, illustrator, Christoph Niemann says inspiration isn't something that comes to him. It's something that he finds, by showing up everyday and just doing the thing. Then, he might find inspiration, or he might not, but he won't get it without looking.

At this stage, I think GRRM long since ceased to look his hardest for how to finish this series. It's a 'nice to have' rather than a 'must have'. Which is fine - it's his life and his work.

My position on work though - whether it's writing or paintings or movies or architecture or really anything, is that you should try and finish it. I don't think The Song of Ice and Fire is finished until he finishes it, and I don't think he's committed to finishing it anymore. Not really. Which is a shame from the perspective of fans, because we've devoted a certain amount of emotional investment in his work, with the understanding that we would see a conclusion to it. Again, it's within his rights not to complete the fruit of his own mental labour, but it doesn't speak to a respect for his audience, that some 'artists' might have. And the fact that he continues to pump out other work at a one book a year pace, while keeping his messaging at the 'lol.. it's not TWOW..again!' level doesn't really say much about him either.

mallin9 · « **Reply #3159 on:** April 30, 2018, 03:07:38 pm »

Quote from: jooneyisdagod on April 28, 2018, 03:37:20 am

Art takes time and writers are the worst procrastinators. Could GRRM manage his time better? Probably but the hate he gets is far too much. He's probably not an asshole. Just a writer struggling to stay true to the ethos of his work and tie up loose ends in a hugely complicated story. I would rather he didn't compromise and reached to produce a masterpiece than taking shortcuts and using fast travel like the showrunners have and sully his legacy.

I hear you, but his last ASOIAF book....did that feel like a writer building towards a masterpiece or like an author struggling to manage the threads of his story? Personal opinions and all but I strongly felt it was a worse book than the first several in the series. But that's all opinions.

Redcap's last paragraph "My position on work though-" neatly encapsulates my take on GRRM