Author Topic: The Level 3 Thread  (Read 1185326 times)

Offline Pr0n

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7680 on: September 1, 2009, 08:54:41 pm »
Well, I thought that Insúa should have been in a position to deal with it, but he tried to let it go out for a goal kick instead of conceding the corner.
The problem with us man marking is that we have half  a team of midgets.

I can remember at least on late last season, where Kuijt used Agger to lose his marker and get a free diving header in the "Ican'trememberhowmanyards" box

Insua was in a position to deal with it.. But he got no help whatsoever from Kuyt ( who also was in a position to make a difference for the first ball ).. Ball-gazing is an apt description of what we did.
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Offline hassinator

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7681 on: September 1, 2009, 08:56:51 pm »


You also say that the manager shouldn't be changing a system he believes in at this stage. What do you mean by 'this stage'? Early in the season? Or five years into the experiment? Or something else? (ED: That was hassinator's point  as well so I'll address the question to him too)

by saying 'in a strategic sense' i meant in the very long term.  zonal marking is how rafa has played it since he got here and while i would never rule out the arch pragmatist adapting any strategy to circumstance - perhaps designating a man marker against specific teams - i think zonal marking is actually how we will continue play until rafa leaves the club.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7682 on: September 1, 2009, 08:58:13 pm »
by saying 'in a strategic sense' i meant in the very long term.  zonal marking is how rafa has played it since he got here and while i would never rule out the arch pragmatist adapting any strategy to circumstance - perhaps designating a man marker against specific teams - i think zonal marking is actually how we will continue play until rafa leaves the club.

So do I.
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Offline hassinator

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7683 on: September 1, 2009, 08:59:56 pm »


The problem with us man marking is that we have half  a team of midgets.



this is a good point and even more apparent in our reserves - i think i've posted a 'diddy men' 11 in another thread.

still if people actually start to do their job better and we get some consistency in personnel i think things will soon tighten up.

Offline Varmenni

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7684 on: September 1, 2009, 09:10:01 pm »
After a quick round of wikipedia I came up with the following height in centimeters  for the starting ten outfield players on each team:

Liverpool:
Johnson 183
Gerrard 183
Torres 185
Riera 187
Sotiris 193
Kuijt 184
Javier 170
Lucas 173
Insúa 173
Carragher 178

Bolton:
Samuel 180
Cahill 188
Muamba 188
Taylor 177
Elmander 188
Knight 200
K Davies 183
Richetts 185
Cohen 183
S Davies 178

If you ignore the tallest player on each team, Sotiris and Knight, then they have three players that are taller than our second tallest player.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7685 on: September 1, 2009, 09:28:20 pm »
LOL - Pr0n - I suspect Yorky understands how zonal marking works in theory. He's a centre half.

I've no preference - just make it work and don't make fucking excuses about it. And we do make a lot of excuses.

Offline Juan Loco

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7686 on: September 1, 2009, 10:21:32 pm »
After a quick round of wikipedia I came up with the following height in centimeters  for the starting ten outfield players on each team:

Liverpool:
Johnson 183
Gerrard 183
Torres 185
Riera 187
Sotiris 193
Kuijt 184
Javier 170
Lucas 173
Insúa 173
Carragher 178

Bolton:
Samuel 180
Cahill 188
Muamba 188
Taylor 177
Elmander 188
Knight 200
K Davies 183
Richetts 185
Cohen 183
S Davies 178

If you ignore the tallest player on each team, Sotiris and Knight, then they have three players that are taller than our second tallest player.

There we go. The simplest explination is also possibly the best.

I bet if you go through every "probable 11" in the league you'll find out that our lads are shorter than most of them. Man to man or zonal is irrelevent, we just don't have players who are particularly good in the air.

Take away the initial half a season of zonal marking where the guys were just getting used to it and just compare from Rafa's 2nd season onwards... I think in his 2nd season we had the best defence in the league from set pieces and the 2nd best overall. As the Riise, Sissoko's and Crouch's (and even Kewell's) have made way for better players one thing rarely mentioned is that the height of team has gone down considerably. In that 2nd season we'd have Riise, Sissoko, Hyypia, Gerrard, Alonso, Crouch and Carragher back at corners - all 6ft+... and then guys like Kewell and Garcia who were good in the air for their height.

Now it's Gerrard, Carra, Johnson, Skrtel/Agger/The greek and possibly Torres and Riera but they're not as good at the defensive headers as Crouch was (if only he was half as good at winning the ball in the opposition box). The team's just worse in the air. Zonal, man to man, half and half, pushing out to play off side - I don't think it matters. We've got a team of players who are substandard in the air and it's going to be a problem at set pieces.
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Offline rednich85

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7687 on: September 1, 2009, 10:33:55 pm »
We've got a team of players who are substandard in the air and it's going to be a problem at set pieces.

True, very true

More intensity is required, more steel

It doesnt matter specifically how tall you are. It matters how much you want it (to a pretty large extent)

Look at how Carvalho deals with Peter Crouch when they meet.....

Look at how players like Ayala and Cannavaro deal with bigger men, I know I'm picking out two fantastic defenders, both with a very good leap but both would fight tooth and nail to get their head/body/ball sack in the way of preventing a goal

I honestly believe a lot of defending comes down to balls. Who wants it more.....

I know there are umpteen other factors but I just dont see the intensity in our defending that we had last season

Maybe its the lack of consistency....maybe its early season cobwebs....I'm not sure

what I do know, is, unless its rectified, it will be squeeky bum time every time we concede and corner/set piece

This is the agricultural version of discussing defending, but it may be that simple.
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7688 on: September 1, 2009, 11:11:08 pm »
How tall is Cahill? He wins a load of headers.
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Offline rednich85

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7689 on: September 1, 2009, 11:13:51 pm »
How tall is Cahill? He wins a load of headers.

Exactly, intelligent and aggresive movement towards the ball
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Offline lamonti

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7690 on: September 1, 2009, 11:14:26 pm »
Otherwise known as 'zonal marking'.

Hold on, there's two types of marking, good marking and shit marking. Shit zonal marking is shit marking.

And the marking on Saturday was beyond fucking shit.

Offline Pr0n

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7691 on: September 1, 2009, 11:30:05 pm »
LOL - Pr0n - I suspect Yorky understands how zonal marking works in theory. He's a centre half.

I've no preference - just make it work and don't make fucking excuses about it. And we do make a lot of excuses.

Well then, makes it all the more surprising re: his (what to me seems a tad over the top) comments I must say. No offence.

For me, it seems pretty clear what Rafa meant with that we need to "defend with more intensity".
It's maybe not a completely accurate description if you look at it closely, but as a generalisation it's telling enough.
« Last Edit: September 1, 2009, 11:32:45 pm by Pr0n »
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Offline BazC

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7692 on: September 2, 2009, 02:18:23 am »
How tall is Cahill? He wins a load of headers.

Remember Garcia as well? He scored 2 of the very best headed goals I've ever seen...
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Offline Juan Loco

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7693 on: September 2, 2009, 02:37:50 am »
Remember Garcia as well? He scored 2 of the very best headed goals I've ever seen...

Anderlecht and Fulham? That Anderlecht header is the single greatest header I have ever seen. How he did that I have no idea. As good as any thirty yarder.

Maybe I'm not paying much attention but I don't really recall Cahill being a great header of the ball in his own box. It's when he's in the opponents box that he attacks the ball with relish. The little twat.
« Last Edit: September 2, 2009, 02:39:59 am by Juan Loco »
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7694 on: September 2, 2009, 09:19:42 am »
Remember Garcia as well? He scored 2 of the very best headed goals I've ever seen...

I remember. Height's very useful but technique and courage are better. Riise was fairly tall but he sank his head into his shoulders when he challenged in the air (classic sign of being afraid of getting hurt). Sissoko was very tall but could never time his jumps properly.

Best headers of a ball I've seen at Liverpool are probably two tall fellas - Toshack, Hyypia - and two small ones - Keegan and Riedle.
Well then, makes it all the more surprising re: his (what to me seems a tad over the top) comments I must say. No offence.

For me, it seems pretty clear what Rafa meant with that we need to "defend with more intensity".
It's maybe not a completely accurate description if you look at it closely, but as a generalisation it's telling enough.

No offence taken. But I puzzled over your long answer. It may seem 'pretty clear' to you but I honestly couldn't make out what you were saying about zonal marking.
Hold on, there's two types of marking, good marking and shit marking. Shit zonal marking is shit marking.

And the marking on Saturday was beyond fucking shit.

That sounds good mate. But it gets us nowhere.
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Offline BazC

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7695 on: September 2, 2009, 11:31:06 am »
Yeah that Anderlecht one was amazingly good- better than a 30 yarder in my opinion! It was perfect technique and needed to be to beat the keeper from that far out.

Clint Dempsey's another short player who seems to get on the end of headers frequently.

They have technique and courage, but I think the key is intelligent movement- they ghost into areas and catch defenders unaware with their position. And they could/can leap!

Hyypia's got the best aerial game out of pretty much any CB I've ever seen. Perfect reading of the game, the strength, the height, the build, the technique, the movement and all the courage and fight in the world. If there was a blueprint for a CB in the aerial game- he'd be it.

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Offline scatman

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7696 on: September 2, 2009, 11:37:25 am »
there's only a furore over zonal marking now in my eyes, because of the start to the season and goals we've conceded. 19 other teams in the league use man to man marking, and at least 17 of those teams conceded more goals from set plays then us last season.

You guys have used Everton as an example up there. Did you notice how poor their set piece defending against Arsenal was?
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7697 on: September 2, 2009, 11:50:22 am »
You guys have used Everton as an example up there. Did you notice how poor their set piece defending against Arsenal was?

I don't think anyone used Everton as an example of how to defend set pieces. In which case their performance v Arsenal is irrelevant.



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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7698 on: September 2, 2009, 12:10:54 pm »
I don't think anyone used Everton as an example of how to defend set pieces. In which case their performance v Arsenal is irrelevant.

But apparently they are a team that base their game around set pieces, defending them and scoring from them. They use man marking, and against Arsenal, another team appalling at set pieces, it was useless.
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7699 on: September 2, 2009, 12:12:00 pm »
Going off topic and apologies to those involved in the marking debate but I honestly feel one of our major problems is the fear of failure.  I think we are seeing it manifest itself again this season and especially in the first game against Spurs, where we were very rigid.

Here is an excerpt from a Gladwell article I read which explains a little about it.  It doesn't really discuss the fear of failure but more the art of failure.  Still has some relevance though.

Quote
There was a moment, in the third and deciding set of the 1993 Wimbledon final, when Jana Novotna seemed invincible. She was leading 4-1 and serving at 40-30, meaning that she was one point from winning the game, and just five points from the most coveted championship in tennis. She had just hit a backhand to her opponent, Steffi Graf, that skimmed the net and landed so abruptly on the far side of the court that Graf could only watch, in flat- footed frustration. The stands at Center Court were packed. The Duke and Duchess of Kent were in their customary place in the royal box. Novotna was in white, poised and confident, her blond hair held back with a headband--and then something happened. She served the ball straight into the net. She stopped and steadied herself for the second serve--the toss, the arch of the back--but this time it was worse. Her swing seemed halfhearted, all arm and no legs and torso. Double fault. On the next point, she was slow to react to a high shot by Graf, and badly missed on a forehand volley. At game point, she hit an overhead straight into the net. Instead of 5-1, it was now 4-2. Graf to serve: an easy victory, 4-3. Novotna to serve. She wasn't tossing the ball high enough. Her head was down. Her movements had slowed markedly. She double-faulted once, twice, three times. Pulled wide by a Graf forehand, Novotna inexplicably hit a low, flat shot directly at Graf, instead of a high crosscourt forehand that would have given her time to get back into position: 4-4. Did she suddenly realize how terrifyingly close she was to victory? Did she remember that she had never won a major tournament before? Did she look across the net and see Steffi Graf--Steffi Graf!--the greatest player of her generation?

On the baseline, awaiting Graf's serve, Novotna was now visibly agitated, rocking back and forth, jumping up and down. She talked to herself under her breath. Her eyes darted around the court. Graf took the game at love; Novotna, moving as if in slow motion, did not win a single point: 5-4, Graf. On the sidelines, Novotna wiped her racquet and her face with a towel, and then each finger individually. It was her turn to serve. She missed a routine volley wide, shook her head, talked to herself. She missed her first serve, made the second, then, in the resulting rally, mis-hit a backhand so badly that it sailed off her racquet as if launched into flight. Novotna was unrecognizable, not an élite tennis player but a beginner again. She was crumbling under pressure, but exactly why was as baffling to her as it was to all those looking on. Isn't pressure supposed to bring out the best in us? We try harder. We concentrate harder. We get a boost of adrenaline. We care more about how well we perform. So what was happening to her?

At championship point, Novotna hit a low, cautious, and shallow lob to Graf. Graf answered with an unreturnable overhead smash, and, mercifully, it was over. Stunned, Novotna moved to the net. Graf kissed her twice. At the awards ceremony, the Duchess of Kent handed Novotna the runner-up's trophy, a small silver plate, and whispered something in her ear, and what Novotna had done finally caught up with her. There she was, sweaty and exhausted, looming over the delicate white-haired Duchess in her pearl necklace. The Duchess reached up and pulled her head down onto her shoulder, and Novotna started to sob.

Human beings sometimes falter under pressure. Pilots crash and divers drown. Under the glare of competition, basketball players cannot find the basket and golfers cannot find the pin. When that happens, we say variously that people have "panicked" or, to use the sports colloquialism, "choked." But what do those words mean? Both are pejoratives. To choke or panic is considered to be as bad as to quit. But are all forms of failure equal? And what do the forms in which we fail say about who we are and how we think?We live in an age obsessed with success, with documenting the myriad ways by which talented people overcome challenges and obstacles. There is as much to be learned, though, from documenting the myriad ways in which talented people sometimes fail.

"Choking" sounds like a vague and all-encompassing term, yet it describes a very specific kind of failure. For example, psychologists often use a primitive video game to test motor skills. They'll sit you in front of a computer with a screen that shows four boxes in a row, and a keyboard that has four corresponding buttons in a row. One at a time, x's start to appear in the boxes on the screen, and you are told that every time this happens you are to push the key corresponding to the box. According to Daniel Willingham, a psychologist at the University of Virginia, if you're told ahead of time about the pattern in which those x's will appear, your reaction time in hitting the right key will improve dramatically. You'll play the game very carefully for a few rounds, until you've learned the sequence, and then you'll get faster and faster. Willingham calls this "explicit learning." But suppose you're not told that the x's appear in a regular sequence, and even after playing the game for a while you're not aware that there is a pattern. You'll still get faster: you'll learn the sequence unconsciously. Willingham calls that "implicit learning"--learning that takes place outside of awareness. These two learning systems are quite separate, based in different parts of the brain. Willingham says that when you are first taught something--say, how to hit a backhand or an overhead forehand--you think it through in a very deliberate, mechanical manner. But as you get better the implicit system takes over: you start to hit a backhand fluidly, without thinking. The basal ganglia, where implicit learning partially resides, are concerned with force and timing, and when that system kicks in you begin to develop touch and accuracy, the ability to hit a drop shot or place a serve at a hundred miles per hour. "This is something that is going to happen gradually," Willingham says. "You hit several thousand forehands, after a while you may still be attending to it. But not very much. In the end, you don't really notice what your hand is doing at all."

Under conditions of stress, however, the explicit system sometimes takes over. That's what it means to choke. When Jana Novotna faltered at Wimbledon, it was because she began thinking about her shots again. She lost her fluidity, her touch. She double-faulted on her serves and mis-hit her overheads, the shots that demand the greatest sensitivity in force and timing. She seemed like a different person--playing with the slow, cautious deliberation of a beginner--because, in a sense, she was a beginner again: she was relying on a learning system that she hadn't used to hit serves and overhead forehands and volleys since she was first taught tennis, as a child. The same thing has happened to Chuck Knoblauch, the New York Yankees' second baseman, who inexplicably has had trouble throwing the ball to first base. Under the stress of playing in front of forty thousand fans at Yankee Stadium, Knoblauch finds himself reverting to explicit mode, throwing like a Little Leaguer again.
Is it any wonder we played some of best football last season when we had shaken off the fear of failure and were simply chasing?  Now, as the season starts over again, we seem to have that fear creeping back into our play. 

If there is a microcosm of this, it is a few minutes of Lucas Leiva against Villa.  He clumsily concedes a free kick, scores an OG and what follows?  Having shaken off the fear of failure (could things get any worse?), he performs the best piece skill on the night by using both feet to roll the ball and beat his opponent.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7700 on: September 2, 2009, 12:42:59 pm »
It's an interesting one Hank and one we spent a lot of time on over the course of last season (Dr Manifest, Babel's posture and mental state, the British Cycling Team and their psychotherapist, Phil Jackson and his wacky ways, and so forth). It's a massive factor in general.

Sorry for adding another tangent to your tangent dude, but this hasn't been posted, has it?

It's just for you Juan. ;D I know you love your formation chat.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/aug/25/the-question-diamond-tactics-jonathan-wilson

Quote
The Question: Is the midfield diamond here to stay and how do you counter it?

It's been adopted by Chelsea and Inter, but will this curious tactic stand the test of time in its latest inception?
 
---

After years of being out of fashion in western Europe, the midfield diamond is back. Chelsea have rumbled to three straight league victories at the start of the season, despite pundits pointing out their lack of width, and wondering just how effective they can continue to be. Internazionale manager Jose Mourinho, who is regarded in the UK as a high priest of 4-3-3, reverted to 4-4-2 with a diamond midfield during his side's 1-1 draw against Bari at the weekend. Previously its popularity has proved fleeting - will this time be any different?

A history lesson
The diamond is curious in that it emerged piecemeal over time; it is not part of the grand sweep of tactical history. It never seems to have been anybody's big idea, but was rather a bi-product of other forces and, generally speaking, it has never hung around for long, which suggests it may have limited applicability. The first team self-consciously to arrange their midfield four with one deep, one creating and two shuttling seems to have been Flamengo, where it began as an expedient compromise in a process that began shortly before the second world war.

As part of his plans to develop the club, Flamengo's president José Bastos Padilha sought a European coach. He found one in the Hungarian Dori Kurschner, who was only too glad to escape anti-Semitism in his homeland. He arrived in Rio de Janeiro in 1937, but his attempts to introduce the W-M (3-2-2-3) were scuppered by a football culture suspicious of anything that might stifle natural creativity and improvisation.

Players, fans and journalists were openly mocking, their doubts fanned into rebellion by the assistant coach, Flavio Costa, who had been moved aside to make way for Kurschner. Having finished second in the Carioca championship in 1937, Flamengo lost 2-0 to Vasco da Gama in the opening game of the following season, the inaugural match at Padilha's new Estadio da Gavea, and Kurschner was sacked. After a brief time at Botafogo, he contracted a virus and died in 1941.

Costa, meanwhile, resumed his role as Flamengo coach. He had slowly become convinced of the merits of the W-M, but having been so scornful, could not admit as much, so claimed to have come up with a whole new system – the diagonal. Essentially, he took the central square of the W-M and tipped it so it became a rhombus, with the inside-left advanced just behind the centre-forward in the ponta da lanca (point of the lance) position Pele would make so famous, the inside-right a little deeper, the left-half a little deeper again, and the right-half sitting just in front of the back three (or of course, the formation could be flipped on its y-axis to make the right side more attacking).

Of course, even within the W-M, it had been common for one of the inside-forwards to be more attacking, or one of the wing-halves to be more defensive – at Arsenal in the 1930s for instance, the left-half Wilf Copping played deep, allowing Jack Crayston, the right-half, more licence. But Costa formalised it, and as Flamengo were successful, his rhombus midfield spread. Gradually, though, the rhombus was tipped a little more, until 3-1-2-1-3 became 4-2-4, the system with which Brazil won the World Cup in 1958.

The diamond then disappeared from view, only springing up again in the sixties. It became common within the 4-2-4 for one of the midfielders to sit, as cover in front of the back four – Antonio Rattin of Argentina being a fine early example. Gradually, forwards began to drop deeper. Argentina, reacting to the shock of being beaten 6-1 by Czechoslovakia at the 1958 World Cup by experimenting with defensive tactics, were among the pioneers. Their obsession with the No10 remained, though, and so by the 1966 World Cup, with Rattin holding, and Ermindo Onega operating as a playmaker, the diamond was beginning to re-emerge.

England lost 1-0 to a defensive Argentina in the Maracana in 1964 in the Mundialito, a four-team tournament also including Brazil and Portugal. Alf Ramsey would never have admitted it, but that defeat seems to have persuaded him down the route of pragmatism. He abandoned 4-2-4 for 4-3-3, before ultimately adopting what Nobby Stiles termed a 4-1-3-2. The Manchester United midfielder anchored in front of the back four, with Alan Ball, Bobby Charlton and Martin Peters all given licence to push on and join the front two.

That formation, a close cousin of the diamond, had already been common for a couple of years in the USSR, where Viktor Maslov, developing the notion of pressing at Dynamo Kyiv, deployed the veteran defender Vasyl Turyanchyk to 'break the waves' in front of the back four. In a team in which every player had defensive duties, only Andriy Biba, Maslov said, "retained the full rights of democracy". He was, in other words, the equivalent of the Argentinian playmaker, given a free role in what was effectively a 4-3-1-2.

It is that shape, with a holder and a playmaker flanked by two shuttling players – carilleros, as they are known in Argentina, the only country, seemingly, to give the role a specific name – that really forms the basis of the modern conception of the diamond. Strangely, though, only Argentina adopted it on a wide scale. Elsewhere a club side may play a diamond for a year or two, but it is a fad that soon fades; in the Argentinian league, although there are experiments with double-playmakers (such as Huracan played last season: a 4-3-2-1) or two holders (which I've seen described, rather neatly, as a double-Pacman), 4-3-1-2 remains the default formation.

Problems with the diamondTo European eyes, unused to seeing an artist provided with a three-man midfield stage on which to perform, that is, at least initially, refreshing. Argentina's historical notion of the default way of playing, equally, with its ready division into playmakers and holders has equipped them well for the modern trend towards four-band formations (which makes it all the more frustrating that Diego Maradona seems so reluctant to use one with the national team).

But there are difficulties. The first game I saw in Argentina was River Plate against Independiente in November 2007. Both teams played 4-3-1-2, and both teams cancelled; each seemingly waiting for their respective playmakers, Ariel Ortega and Daniel Montenegro, to do something. Neither did, and the game ended in a tame 1-1 draw that probably would have slipped from the memory had it not been my first visit to the Monumental. It was admittedly, a mid-table fixture, but the wider point was clear: the danger of playing through one creative source (in River's case in that game, bafflingly, for Diego Buonanotte was playing as a support striker and surely could have dropped deeper), is that a single stream is easily dammed. The diamond's lack of width only exacerbates the problem.

You wonder as well whether Argentina remains so caught up in the debate over the viability of the playmaker, and with producing creators (and thus Pacmen to stop them) that other areas get rather overlooked. Playing a 4-2-3-1 – and ignoring the spats that have ruled certain players out - Argentina would have, by some distance, the best middle five in the world (two of Javier Mascherano, Esteban Cambiasso, Sebastian Battaglia and Fernando Gago; three of Leo Messi, Sergio Aguero, Carlos Tevez, Juan Román Riquelme, or even Javier Pastore), but are deficient in every other area.

My own doubts about the diamond crystallised one night in Belgrade in October 2002. Yugoslavia had played a diamond against Italy the previous Saturday, and had succeeded in frustrating them, drawing 1-1. They set out with the same shape that Wednesday against Finland, and found themselves outplayed in the first half as Finland's two wide midfielders in an orthodox 4-4-2, Mika Nurmela and Joonas Kolkka, revelled in the open spaces on the flanks. Yugoslavia may have enjoyed the bulk of possession, but they became so paranoid about their vulnerability to wide counters that they were able to do little with it, and were fortunate still to be level at half-time. A quick switch to 3-5-2 soon solved that (and freed Sinisa Mihajlovic - playing by that stage of his career as a centre-back - from actually having to do any defending), and they won 2-0.

Can Chelsea make it work in the Premier League?Given the tendency within the diamond to predictability, it seemed to me fine as a defensive formation, but of less use to a team who needed to take the initiative. Gradually, though, particularly from watching Argentinian football, I've become less sceptical. The issue really is the carilleros. If they get too narrow, as Yugoslavia did that night, then a team is vulnerable wide, and its numerical advantage in the centre is outweighed by the fact that everybody is packed into so tight a space that passing options become limited.

If they can retain some width – and it is notable that Chelsea this season have twice in the league, and in the Community Shield, used Florent Malouda, a winger, as the left carillero – and so ensure the system is a 4-3-1-2, then that is less of a problem. If those carilleros and/or the full-backs (and Chelsea have two – three if you include Yuri Zhirkov – attacking full-backs) can also get forward, given confidence to do so by the central midfield holder, that relieves some of the creative burden from the player at the tip of the diamond.

Chelsea also have the variation offered by the asymmetry introduced by Guus Hiddink. The second striker plays slightly to the right of Drogba – that was clear when Kalou partnered him at Sunderland, and still evident in Anelka's role at Fulham – which encourages the left carrillero to advance, something that is difficult for orthodox symmetrical formations to pick up, and which stimulates a very necessary flexibility.

How to smash the diamond
So, how can the diamond be countered? The lack of width remains the flaw, and the key is to try to shift the battle from the centre to the flanks. Hull rode their luck to an extent on the opening day, but it is no coincidence that it was their 4-5-1 rather than the 4-4-2 of Sunderland and Fulham that came closest to stopping Chelsea.

Midfielders played wide and high stop the advances of the full-backs, while a hard-tackling trio in the centre will at least make Chelsea fight for possession, while shielding the back four when Chelsea have possession. In addition, a team's wide midfielders block Chelsea's full-backs, their own full-backs should be free to either become an extra man in midfield or provide additional defensive cover.

The narrowness of the diamond is a flaw, but no system is without them. The issue really is how many sides are able to engage them those wide areas. So far the inherent weakness in the system has been over-ridden by Chelsea's dominance in the centre. It's all very well pointing at where the space may be, but largely irrelevant – from an attacking point of view – if you can't get the ball, and by playing with, effectively, four central midfielders, Chelsea are ensuring they enjoy the bulk of possession.

Their football may never produce the geometric rhapsodies of, say, Arsenal at their best, but certainly while Didier Drogba remains in form (and in the country: he, Michael Essien, Salomon Kalou and Mikel Jon Obi will all be in Angola in January for the African Cup of Nations), Chelsea look capable of overwhelming opponents, that frontline of attack backed up by a prodigious second wave from midfield.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7701 on: September 2, 2009, 12:50:56 pm »
interesting reads there roy and hank. I cant wait for the ACN, i really think Chelsea will have difficulties then...are we scheduled to play them :D
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7702 on: September 2, 2009, 01:57:12 pm »
Yorky: the bottomline about zonal marking - there is no inherent connection between passivity and the zonal marking system - which you were implying before. The whole team defends - hence there can be no passive defending role.

The other thing is that I can't say for sure what the intention was and hence it's hard to give accurate points about exactly what went wrong and exactly how it should be rectified.

You mentioned Everton as an example of a team that had practiced on a way to beat our set-piece defending and this is obviously true, but you can easily do the same with a man-man marking defence. Work hard to exploit a specific weakness..

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7703 on: September 2, 2009, 08:00:13 pm »
Interesting re the diamond but Rafa will work that out.

When we played Chelsea's narrow 3 man midfield in 2006 semi final at OT, Rafa left Kewell isolated on Ferreira and switched play quickly via Alonso or Finnan (probably)to the left side to either get Riise  2 v 1 or Kewell 1 on 1 and we murdered them for an hour.

Re the zonal. The problem we have is that we are simply not that good in the air as a side.

Both our first choice centre backs are very average in the air for the position and Insua is small. Mascherano is small and Lucas is no giant.

We therefore rely on forward players (Gerrard/Kuyt/Torres to do key defensive roles in their zones.

The lack of heading ability is also reflected at the other end of the pitch. When Sami played we were a threat. Carragher and Skrtel have no idea in the other box and are probably two of the worst centre backs in the country attacking a corner offensively.

Re second phase from defensive corners, there's no zonal defending then, it's find a man quick and nobody did on saturday for the first goal. Torres/Carra/Kryg all switched off completely.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7704 on: September 2, 2009, 08:29:57 pm »
After a quick round of wikipedia I came up with the following height in centimeters  for the starting ten outfield players on each team:

Liverpool:
Johnson 183
Gerrard 183
Torres 185
Riera 187
Sotiris 193
Kuijt 184
Javier 170
Lucas 173
Insúa 173
Carragher 178

Bolton:
Samuel 180
Cahill 188
Muamba 188
Taylor 177
Elmander 188
Knight 200
K Davies 183
Richetts 185
Cohen 183
S Davies 178

If you ignore the tallest player on each team, Sotiris and Knight, then they have three players that are taller than our second tallest player.

FUCKING HELL!
I knew we were small but shit:

Spurs vs. Liverpool

Skrtel 193
Corluka 191
Huddlestone 190
Bassong 188 | King 188
Torres 185 |Babel 185
Kuijt 184
Johnson 183 | Gerrard 183
Assou-Ekotto 178 | Palacios 178 | Carragher 178
Robbie Keane 175
Modric 174
Lucas 173 | Insúa 173
Javier 170
Defoe 169
Lennon 165

Although looking at Villa it's boggling that they scored 3 set pieces against us.

Villa vs. Liverpool

Skrtel 193
Cuellar 190
Davies 188
Torres 185
Kuijt 184
Johnson 183 | Gerrard 183
Beye 182
Petrov 180 | Agbonlahor
Carragher 178 | Sidwell 178
Shorey 175 | Young 175 | Milner 175 | Reo Coker
Lucas 173 | Insúa 173 | Benayoun 173
Javier 170

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7705 on: September 2, 2009, 10:13:08 pm »
How do Arsenal match up? They don't appear to be a tall side, yet they are not exactly poor at set pieces.

Plus I don't think height is that much of an issue. The difference in some of those players isn't exactly that much. 7 of our 10 outfield players on Saturday were over 6ft, with some players who are good in the air and have no excuse to not be able to clear the box, such as Sotiris, Carragher, Johnson, Kuyt, Gerrard, Riera and Torres.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7706 on: September 2, 2009, 10:38:30 pm »
How do Arsenal match up? They don't appear to be a tall side, yet they are not exactly poor at set pieces.

Arsenal vs. Liverpool

Skrtel 193
Diaby 190
Van Persie 188
Torres 185 | Song 185
Kuijt 184
Johnson 183 | Gerrard 183 | Gallas 183
Vermaelen 182
Denilson 180
Carragher 178 | Eboue 178
Sanga 176 | Clichy 176
Lucas 173 | Insúa 173 | Benayoun 173
Arshavin 172
Javier 170

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7707 on: September 2, 2009, 10:46:11 pm »
Arsenal vs. Liverpool

Skrtel 193
Diaby 190
Van Persie 188
Torres 185 | Song 185
Kuijt 184
Johnson 183 | Gerrard 183 | Gallas 183
Vermaelen 182
Denilson 180
Carragher 178 | Eboue 178
Sanga 176 | Clichy 176
Lucas 173 | Insúa 173 | Benayoun 173
Arshavin 172
Javier 170


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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7708 on: September 2, 2009, 11:48:28 pm »
It's amazing that teensy-weensy Barcelona don't concede a goal from every corner and free kick they face. By rights they ought to be relegated every year.
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7709 on: September 3, 2009, 12:22:47 am »
It's amazing that teensy-weensy Barcelona don't concede a goal from every corner and free kick they face. By rights they ought to be relegated every year.

Because there's just as much onus placed on set pieces in Spain?

The Barcelona "fall back" gets on my nerves to be honest. It's a different league. I don't want to get into clichés about it and how they "don't like it up 'em" but christ, it's obvious that there isn't the same onus on percentage football or the 'ugly' side of games in Spain. Of course they can play with Iniesta and Xavi in the centre, every time either of them are touched (they don't even have to go down) there's a freekick. That doesn't mean that you can play a pair of midgets, regardless of how talented, in a league filled with hatchetmen c*nts like Bowyer, where the refs just let that stuff go.

I don't think mentioning Barcelona's set piece defending does anyone any good. Different league, different approach to set plays, and perhaps more importantly - are Barca actually a short team by La Liga's standards? 'Cos we definitely are by Premiership standards.
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7710 on: September 3, 2009, 01:03:04 am »
It's not as if they don't concede many corners from pressing so high up the pitch either, I think Gijon had about eight corners last night. When you add that Barcelona scored three, all from set pieces, it goes to show that even the best of footballing teams are fantastic with set pieces as well (Although they aren't a particularly tall team, they've just got some awesome athletes, such as Keita).
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7711 on: September 3, 2009, 01:46:07 am »
On the table of teams' average height, we're in ninth actually.

And Manchester United are bottom.
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7712 on: September 3, 2009, 01:52:05 am »
On the table of teams' average height, we're in ninth actually.

And Manchester United are bottom.

Are you going by squads or probable XI's?

Are you adding up the total heights then dividing by the number of the squad or are you doing as done above, where you compare the first 11's and see who is tallest, 2nd tallest, 3rd tallest etc?
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7713 on: September 3, 2009, 04:02:39 am »
Just a few thoughts that have been sparked by something Babel said and watching Barcelona. I guess with Babel’s words being involved it’s mildly topical.

It was something I seem to recall Babel saying in a very early interview about how Rafa only worked on defensive movements in training but left it up to the players themselves when attacking. Of course good players can play together more often than not and relationships build and become intuitive. After all, if Rafa’s not coaching the attacking play then he’s not coaching Gerrard and Torres’ partnership, just assuming that they – as stunningly gifted footballers – will make it work. They do.

It came to my mind though whilst watching Barca on Monday that it’s the worse players who suffer. It was something bubbling away under the surface when I watched Barcelona’s kid’s school Spurs in pre-season (although I kept it at the back of my mind because they were under no pressure on the ball). I was watching the way Barca players move with off the ball and it was just so obviously controlled, choreographed movements. Arsenal are the same, albeit at a far lesser level. We get all this talk about how Rafa’s teams are the one who are mechanical, and well-drilled, but just take the time to watch Barcelona and in possession it is clearly well drilled. Obviously you can’t prepare for someone like Messi taking on 5 players and curling one in from 20 yards. But, the general play is drilled into that team. It’s so obviously coached.

I was watching them on Monday and it wasn’t a case of waxing lyrical over the level of the football or anything like that, more the structure of the coaching throughout the club and the coaching of Guardiola. When we talk about movement focus tends to fall on the guy that ends up receiving the ball but I was watching the players who were probably the 3rd or 4th best option to receive the ball at the time. It was just a player move 5 yards further out wide, dragging the marker slightly closer to him and then creating the gap for the guy who is going to receive the ball not off that pass, but the one after that. And then, by the time the ball is with that player the guy who was initially the 3rd or 4th best option to receive the pass is now the best.

The focus tends to be on the technical level of the play, and the vision. It’s about how Xavi and Iniesta can receive the ball under enormous pressure and still turn away into space, or about those one touch passes that zip between players in the final 3rd. The movement tends to be of secondary importance but that is surely the one area that is applicable to all teams?

As I was saying above, I’ve started to come to the conclusion that the benefits of being as well drilled in possession as we are out of it would be shown with the players who aren’t as technically outstanding (quite why I’m hoping it’d happen now, a month into Rafa’s 6th season at the club when it hasn’t so far… well, it’s false hope). Puyol is one who sticks out to me. I think he’s a little better on the ball than Carragher, and there’s an issue of confidence where Puyol clearly feels he can offer something on the ball and will move into space. But, at the same time, there isn’t a gulf in class between what he can do with a football and what Carragher can. Where I think the main difference lies is in the fact that Puyol is sure of what he has to do with the ball. As with the rest of Barcelona’s play you can see immediately the moves the players make off the ball, to make the space, to make the angles for him to step forward or make the simple pass. The Barcelona players know exactly what to do when Puyol has the ball and Puyol knows exactly what to do when he has the ball. I think we’ve been looking at Carragher’s contributions with the ball at feet from a different angle. That he lacks the confidence and is tentative in attacking space and playing the ball. There is the idea that he’ll miss Alonso because Alonso took the responsibility upon himself to offer, as he would put it, the solution to a team mate. I’ll put a different spin on it and suggest that perhaps the coaching staff hasn’t been offering the solution?

If we believe what Babel said about the attack not being coached then it would imply that Rafa has gone out there with a message of “just go out there and play” – at least with the ball at feet (the type of message that seems far less restrictive than some suggest he is as a coach). If this is the case then the players will be playing the type of game they developed elsewhere. Alonso was someone who naturally looked to offer an option. Agger was someone who naturally stepped out of defence, that wasn’t something coached into him etc.

I’m just using Carragher as the example here but the same cases could be made for everyone, particularly the likes of Mascherano and Lucas. Carragher defensively has obviously taken everything that’s been coached into him by Rafa and learnt it by heart. Over the 5 years so far of Rafa’s reigned he’s looked supremely confident and assured from a defensive point of view. Because of Carragher’s character surely you could make a case for suggesting that he would take the ‘offensive’ coaching the same way? If it was drilled into Carragher that every time he had the ball at the back he was to move into space and then pass it to a player then I’m sure he would do that, as long as it was coached into him with the same intensity as the defensive aspects of the game. If the right movements and plays were coached into all the players then Carragher would have the options to lay the ball off to. At the moment he’s tentative on the ball anyway and no one makes themselves available to him, so he goes back what he feels safest doing which is hoofing the ball rather aimlessly down the line or diagonally. That’s the type of player he is, just like Xabi was the type of player who would offer themselves to him as an easy pass.


Again, much like the set pieces I would have thought this was a part of the game Rafa would relish. ‘Control’ is a word he often mentions and this would seem like the easiest way to control the way the game is going. What often gets discussed on these threads is Sacchi and Saachi was obsessed with collective movement, being compact without the ball but also being equally in-tune with each other when in possession. What’s the phrase he often uses about the orchestra? To use analogies along similar lines then I think Rafa expects the synchronicity of a world class orchestra without the ball but expects the spontaneity and improvisational genius of a world class free form jazz performer. Obviously players like Gerrard and Torres can look like football’s answer to Miles Davis and John Coltrane, but when you stick an average musician in there and tell them to go, you just get a cacophony.


I think it’s possible to get caught up in the style of play when discussing stuff like this and forget the philosophy. Pass and move doesn’t necessarily have to be the Barcelona thing of popping the ball off 5 yards to one and other. Just because off the ball movement is coached so intensively at somewhere like Barcelona doesn’t mean that you have to play the exact same ticky-takka stuck of football. Just look at Chelsea at the moment who are rotating in their midfield incredibly well, and they have technically limited players like Cole and Terry stepping forward comfortably with the ball and being involved in the play. Ancelotti’s Milan were similar. They were hardly as expressive or as beautiful to watch as Barcelona, but they were fluid and everyone knew what to do with the ball as well as without. I’d argue it was part of the reason that they stayed at the top in Europe for so long, despite their age and the fact that there were some players in there that just didn’t stand out as spectacular. Players like Kaká and Pirlo were going to stand out regardless of how Milan played, but the likes of Ambrosini, Seedorf, Jankulovski/Serginho and Oddo were simply solid professionals who could be trusted to do their jobs to a tee both in and out of possession, and were good enough technically not to be embarrassed

I know there is a belief in some quarters that we just don’t have the technical excellence to play such a way but I disagree. The players who often get pointed out for being limited technically are the likes of Kuyt, Mascherano and Lucas who all play internationally for three of the most technique obsessed countries on the planet. Mascherano and Kuyt are cornerstones of those teams. They would not be in those teams, even if they displayed all the passion and endeavour in the world, were they not good players. Barcelona would not be after Mascherano if he could not control the ball and pass it a bit as well as tackle superbly.


Ahh, bollocks to it. I can’t be arsed typing any more, you all know who what I’m getting at. In the same way that you use systems and patterns of play to make up for deficiencies in a defenders pace or a striker’s ability to hold up the ball, this is just the same with possession. If you’re well drilled and you do it as a team (through the whole club in Barcelona’s case) you get the players who aren’t as gifted looking far more competent in possession. In Barcelona’s case it clearly installs more confidence in players because they know exactly what they’re meant to do in possession and they’re well drilled. Same way as they are when it comes to defending a particular pattern of play or a set piece. If you play this way throughout the entire club then you get players who know their jobs exactly through youth, reserve and up to the first team. I  mean even last night the reserves, whilst marking zonally in the first half still played with Pacheco on the half way line which is something that would never happen in the first team. Why is that different? It’s such a small, simple thing to make sure is coached the same way through all levels of the club. … I fear I’m veering off course with that bit, but I thought I’d add it in.

Yeah.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7714 on: September 3, 2009, 04:16:06 am »
Are you going by squads or probable XI's?

Are you adding up the total heights then dividing by the number of the squad or are you doing as done above, where you compare the first 11's and see who is tallest, 2nd tallest, 3rd tallest etc?
I'm not doing anything, I've just nicked Martin Tyler's stats.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7715 on: September 3, 2009, 09:00:35 am »
think your last paragraph summarised it well Juan but can you see it happening at anfield?
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7716 on: September 3, 2009, 10:36:17 am »
It's amazing that teensy-weensy Barcelona don't concede a goal from every corner and free kick they face. By rights they ought to be relegated every year.

small but perfectly formed yorky?  still chelsea held them at home and were robbed at stamford bridge which is maybe one of the reasons they wanted to sign another of our diddy men so much this summer.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7717 on: September 3, 2009, 01:28:53 pm »
Great piece, JL.

Just to nit pick on the Carra thing. He might actually have been drilled to do this but in the cold light of day and with 40000 fans watching him. Maybe he reverts to type because it is safe.
I understand that you can develop an ability to change your way of playing but you have spent 10 years telling anyone in the defense to just hit it long, I have to believe that it would be hard to suddenly change that mentality.
Plus, it is only Carra that looks totally out of sorts with the ball at his feet. Even though people moan at Kuyt, he never ever tires of showing and wanting the ball. Same for Masch and Lucas.

Another thing. What Babel said has to be taken with a grain of salt.
I feel that way because I look at how Gerrard has improved as an attacking entity in 5 seasons and there is no way that Rafa just one day said to him to just go out there and be free. If he did then Gerrard is more of a genius than I thought.
Maybe we dont practice the attacking phase as much as they do at Ajax for Babels taste but look how we played towards the end of last year...or look how Valencia played in Rafa's last year with them. That is not spontaneous.


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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7718 on: September 3, 2009, 01:52:07 pm »
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I feel that way because I look at how Gerrard has improved as an attacking entity in 5 seasons and there is no way that Rafa just one day said to him to just go out there and be free. If he did then Gerrard is more of a genius than I thought.
Maybe we dont practice the attacking phase as much as they do at Ajax for Babels taste but look how we played towards the end of last year...or look how Valencia played in Rafa's last year with them. That is not spontaneous.

Given the man is a control-freak, it seems unlikely he wouldn't look at every area on the pitch. But this is not the only time Babel has said something where one feels he sees or hears only what he wants to see or hear. Add to that Torres's past quotes on Rafa's constant feedback/how he has improved as a striker since coming to LFC and I think it all adds up to considerable evidence.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #7719 on: September 3, 2009, 02:06:40 pm »
re babel - make some, break some.  if he can't get with it then time to leave and give someone else a go.