Author Topic: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game  (Read 111420 times)

Offline bepoq

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1360 on: January 9, 2011, 10:30:35 pm »
Watching the replay of the red again, webb backs away like play on its only after Man's started whinging he blows a stop. He caught carrick but it was a 50/50 with neither play facing each other both are going sideways to the ball. Gerrard catches him because Carricks foot gets there first and swings through the ball Gerrard doesnt deviate of his line to collect him its a block challenge yes it has two feet but its not aimed at the player its aimed at the touchline following the same plane his run was on.

Absolutely - well said. All accounts of it, including a few lads on here who won't seem to hear any argument but that it was "stonewall," act as though Carrick was in possession and Stevie came in with a two footed tackle, when it was a 50/50 with Gerrard heading to the sideline and Carrick arriving perpendicular to him. If Gerrard had done the same but clearly made contact just before Carrick and Carrick had kicked him, what would Webb have given? Same thing? After all, Gerrard left his feet—complete nonsense. Bad misapplication of the law in my opinion, but typical of Webb to be entirely unable to distinguish and just blanket application. Of course Stevie should know that, so he should have been more careful - if he left his feet with Carrick nowhere near him he'd have to look out for some sort of card from Webb, who clearly cannot cope with big matches and pressure (Old Trafford and Ferguson for Man United, World Cup and FIFA for "the spectacle") - utterly inept and a coward.

Offline jckliew

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1361 on: January 9, 2011, 10:31:24 pm »
Watching the replay of the red again, webb backs away like play on its only after Man's started whinging he blows a stop. He caught carrick but it was a 50/50 with neither play facing each other both are going sideways to the ball. Gerrard catches him because Carricks foot gets there first and swings through the ball Gerrard doesnt deviate of his line to collect him its a block challenge yes it has two feet but its not aimed at the player its aimed at the touchline following the same plane his run was on.
this. they were side by side in the tackle. ahhh footie has become sport for pansies like carrick
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Offline Alpherah

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1362 on: January 9, 2011, 10:31:42 pm »
How was Carricks leg ever gonna be planted when there were both sliding?

This is key for me, Carrick was just as committed, and his foot was just as high.
If Stevie had got there first, would Carrick of got a red? no? didnt think so.

Offline Dr Manhattan

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1363 on: January 9, 2011, 10:31:59 pm »
The best news: Mancs don't stand a chance of winning the No19 with this team ...

They do stand a chance. A very big chance. To think otherwise would be daft.
I trust the King, but if we lose a few more on the trot now - he may have to step aside, and we have to purchase another manager in the middle of the season. If we are relegated, this could be the end of our ambitions to win any title the next 100 years.

Offline redmark

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1364 on: January 9, 2011, 10:32:08 pm »
Final point on the penalty from me - even if there was slight contact that shouldn't automatically make it a foul. There was not enough force to trip or halt Berbatov's progress. If that had been a 50/50 near halfway would he have given a foul? Well probably knowing Webb but my point still stands!

Sam Allardyce (of all people) pointed out that Webb had a poor position for the penalty; a slow jog 30 yards away and made no effort to get up with the play. From that distance, Agger's slight lunge and Berbatov's tumble made it a borderline decision. If he wasn't sure, though, in the first minute of a massive game - shouldn't have given it.

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Offline Armand9

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1365 on: January 9, 2011, 10:33:08 pm »
Not happy with the result but happy all round in that for the first time we looked like LFC today.

From Kenny's pre-match quip 'are you working for ferguson?' to Ferguson's clearly irritated/somewhat nervous pre-match interview, things started well in that regard.

Webb was their 12th man yet again but we didn't drop our heads, kept battling trying to make something happened when we got forward, pressed the ball high up, didn't sit on our own box (even tho down to 10 men), passed and moved better, passed it out from the back instead of hoofing it, amazing group of 4/5 saves from pepe in as many seconds and in the final analysis they won by a dive which everyone outside of Old Traford knows. If we'd kept 11 men against their 12, we might of just won that one.

We weren't great but we were Liverpool once again and without getting carried away, it bodes well for the immediate future once Kenny (and hopefully Thomo joins him as his second) has the lads for a while - we'll start playing good football and put a bit of pride back in the shirt.
« Last Edit: January 9, 2011, 10:35:02 pm by Armand9 »
Losing your only chance of silverware this season to your city rival. At home. With the most expensive squad ever assembled.

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Offline redmark

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1366 on: January 9, 2011, 10:33:11 pm »
They do stand a chance. A very big chance. To think otherwise would be daft.

Indeed. The rest of the top 4/6/8 are all messing up. If United actually started playing well, they could walk it.
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Offline 1021

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1367 on: January 9, 2011, 10:33:37 pm »
Once again, I fail to see a rant in Kenny's comments.

Neither do I.
Oh well the press honeymoon we enjoyed (endured) with Roy is over it seems.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1368 on: January 9, 2011, 10:34:27 pm »
The best news: Mancs don't stand a chance of winning the No19 with this team ...


Unfortunately, they have already won it this season. It's the easiest of titles for them, more or less a walk over.

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Offline El Capitán Reina

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1369 on: January 9, 2011, 10:35:28 pm »
I just want to know how Webb can make a decision - particularly a straight red - when he was actually walking away with his back to the tackle in the first place, only seeing the outcome of it at most.

He must have some talent, that bloke.

Offline AriGold

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1370 on: January 9, 2011, 10:35:31 pm »

The best news: Mancs don't stand a chance of winning the No19 with this team ...
Why are you so daft?
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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1371 on: January 9, 2011, 10:35:47 pm »
Howard Webb, 4pens given to them at Old Trafford last 6 games he's reffed there. I rest my case.

He's either as weak as piss or bent.
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Offline Alpherah

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1372 on: January 9, 2011, 10:36:20 pm »
If i remember almost all of those pens were soft as fuck too.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1373 on: January 9, 2011, 10:36:48 pm »
Since you bring up tactics -



It's more likely to pick up 3 points in this sort of matchup though, unless you think going at Evra and crossing the ball for Torres to beat Ferdinand/Evans/Vidic is a better idea.
NAhh mate. 4-4-2 with proper wingers is the ultimate tactic that never fails, didn't you know that? I mean...didn't you learn anything from 1966? ;D
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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1374 on: January 9, 2011, 10:37:33 pm »
Indeed. The rest of the top 4/6/8 are all messing up. If United actually started playing well, they could walk it.


I haven't seen much of them this season, just read about them being in 2nd gear yet still top. Anyone think they're capable of stepping it up or is this them at their best? The league's looking good for them at the moment but they have a lot of big away games to come. Also can't see them beating the best in Europe although that Faustian pact isn't expiring anytime soon so God knows what will happen. Sorry, bit off topic!

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1375 on: January 9, 2011, 10:38:06 pm »
Indeed. The rest of the top 4/6/8 are all messing up. If United actually started playing well, they could walk it.
The one bit that gives me hope is that I don't think Utd can play any better - they are playing well, very well, for the team they have. Chelsea, on the other hand, have several more gears if they can find them again.
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Offline Dubit10

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1376 on: January 9, 2011, 10:38:55 pm »
Indeed. The rest of the top 4/6/8 are all messing up. If United actually started playing well, they could walk it.

They have'nt "played well" in an age. Maybe they don't have it anymore. Maybe this is as good as it get's for them.
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Offline Red_Isle_Chap

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1377 on: January 9, 2011, 10:38:59 pm »
Chopper, I really like you as a poster and you're a real laugh, and a top red, but when it comes to tactics you talk a right old load of shite ;) I can't remember a single discussion we've had on tactics where I haven't utterly disagreed with just about every single thing you've said.

Though it would be nice to have much better wingers, that's true - but wingers aren't now, nor have they ever been (well, not since the real old days) the 'foundation' of any set of tactics.
Aye. The real difference was pace and cofidence. By that i don't just mean the actual players, but pace of the pass and pace of the movement, especially down our right hand side with giggs and evra. It goes to show what confidence does to a team. For them being quicker on the ball, i thought we actually had the game by the balls a lot of the time, which is an achievement as a)we were down to 10 for so long and b) our midfield. I thought Meireles didn't look fit, in the second Lucas was knackered (not surprising) and I thought that Jonjo handled himself well bar a couple of passes and that free kick.
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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1378 on: January 9, 2011, 10:40:03 pm »
They do stand a chance. A very big chance. To think otherwise would be daft.
Indeed. The rest of the top 4/6/8 are all messing up. If United actually started playing well, they could walk it.
Unfortunately, they have already won it this season. It's the easiest of titles for them, more or less a walk over.

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Offline Stussy

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1379 on: January 9, 2011, 10:40:17 pm »

From Kenny's pre-match quip 'are you working for ferguson?' to Ferguson's clearly irritated/somewhat nervous pre-match interview, things started well in that regard.

Yeah I got the sense the old hard-shoulder shitter looked very irate and even more annoyed than usual.

Have to say the purple on that face of his grows deeper every month - he must have enjoyed his christmas by the look of it.

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Offline AriGold

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1380 on: January 9, 2011, 10:40:57 pm »
The Mancs will finish 3rd this season ...
You're funny.
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Offline joezydudek

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1381 on: January 9, 2011, 10:42:32 pm »
I am still collecting lunches and drinks from last season's betting with my colleagues and friends who support the Mancs ... This year, I have increased the bets ... The Mancs will finish 3rd this season ...


I hope you're right, but I fear you're completely insane!

Offline Alonso_The_Assassin

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1382 on: January 9, 2011, 10:42:55 pm »
Howard Webb fails to send two players off in the first half of the World Cup final for near assault, yet sends a player off who got a large percentage of the ball.

12 v 10 for large proportions of this match.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1383 on: January 9, 2011, 10:43:51 pm »
Absolutely - well said. All accounts of it, including a few lads on here who won't seem to hear any argument but that it was "stonewall," act as though Carrick was in possession and Stevie came in with a two footed tackle, when it was a 50/50 with Gerrard heading to the sideline and Carrick arriving perpendicular to him. If Gerrard had done the same but clearly made contact just before Carrick and Carrick had kicked him, what would Webb have given? Same thing? After all, Gerrard left his feet—complete nonsense. Bad misapplication of the law in my opinion, but typical of Webb to be entirely unable to distinguish and just blanket application. Of course Stevie should know that, so he should have been more careful - if he left his feet with Carrick nowhere near him he'd have to look out for some sort of card from Webb, who clearly cannot cope with big matches and pressure (Old Trafford and Ferguson for Man United, World Cup and FIFA for "the spectacle") - utterly inept and a coward.
The direction of the challenge and the contact or lack of is, according to the rules, pretty much irrelevant. The big difference is how both players went into it, Carrick was on the floor the whole time, and led with one foot, studs down - perhaps dodgy but not dangerous, Gerrard went in with both feet off the ground and once he did that, whether he made contact or not, whether it was 50/50 or not and whether Rafael should have been booked/sent off or not, he was committing a red cardable offence and inviting Webb to make the correct decision. Yes, Webb got shitloads of other things 'wrong' as he always does against Utd especially at OT, but judged on it's own merits a good ref should always be giving the kind of challenge Gerrard made as a red, just like a good ref should always give a red for an elbow or a professional foul etc etc. The rules are very clear on it AFAIK.

You can debate Webb, you can debate the circumstances around it but the actual challenge Gerrard made is a red card offence whether he touches the ball/player or not. Carrick didn't go into it the same way, and his wasn't a red card offence - it wasn't like Fellaini Vs Kyrgiakos last season where they both should have been sent off, for example.
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Offline Rednyte

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1384 on: January 9, 2011, 10:45:13 pm »
Result wasn't so important today in my opinion, it is probably a blessing in disguise and will allow us to focus on the league.
What was important today was that we had a go. We did not just sit back in our own half and get dominated like we have every other away fixture this season. It was great to see us push up and press the Mancs, even with 10 men I thought we did a fantastic job.
Martin Kelly, well - the lad must surely be knocking on the door or a regular starting place. He was immense today and MOM in my opinion. Would like to see him get a chance at CB, him and Agger could be a fantastic pairing.
This is hopefully the beginning of a big turn around in our away form. If we play like that every week and don't have a cvnt referee ruin the game we are in good shape.

Offline redmark

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1385 on: January 9, 2011, 10:45:37 pm »
The one bit that gives me hope is that I don't think Utd can play any better - they are playing well, very well, for the team they have. Chelsea, on the other hand, have several more gears if they can find them again.
They have'nt "played well" in an age. Maybe they don't have it anymore. Maybe this is as good as it get's for them.

They have individuals who can play better. They can concede less. Hernandez could be a very good goalscorer for them. Overall I'd agree, this is as 'poor' a United side as they've had for years (and the 97 year old Giggs was probably their best player today), but I think it's got another year or so before it needs real major surgery.
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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1386 on: January 9, 2011, 10:45:40 pm »
You're funny.
I hope you're right, but I fear you're completely insane!

Yup, that is exactly what I have been told last season ...

By the way, they are even worse this season ...
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Offline kinofi

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1387 on: January 9, 2011, 10:46:23 pm »
im not sure when was the last time a ref was so hated

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1388 on: January 9, 2011, 10:46:28 pm »
Howard Webb fails to send two players off in the first half of the World Cup final for near assault, yet sends a player off who got a large percentage of the ball.

12 v 10 for large proportions of this match.
Yet another irrelevant comparison. I can do this too.

Webb has sent players off before for deliberate hand ball to save a goal. Therefore the red card was correct.

If you're going to refer to prior Webb decisions then at least find one that's the same type of challenge - the law is very clear on the type of thing Gerrard did, as far as I know there is no such clarity on challenging for an aerial ball and sticking your leg out, even if it was a disgusting shithouse high footed disgrace that should have been a red...it was still a challenge more like the one Skrtel got away with against City, not the same type of challenge as Gerrard's at all.
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Offline Elzar

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1389 on: January 9, 2011, 10:46:44 pm »
I think the one thing about the mancs that have made them so successful this season is how much of a team they are. Maybe not brilliant when you look at individual performances, but as a team, they play well all the time.

I thought we played like that today too. The defence looked solid for the first time in a long time. Skrtel looked alot better than he has been, Kelly was simply brilliant, as was Agger! And Aurelio his usual self. I was dissapointed with Meireles's performance, but I'm sure he will improve soon, as will Torres. Babel looked bright when he came on, and will probably have but himself in consideration for Blackpool.

With a few new signings this window, and Kenny's influence on the team, I think we will be able to start picking up the points and climing the table.

Gutted Gerrard will be out of the derby though, although maybe someone else will step up to the plate!
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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1390 on: January 9, 2011, 10:47:17 pm »
NAhh mate. 4-4-2 with proper wingers is the ultimate tactic that never fails, didn't you know that? I mean...didn't you learn anything from 1966? ;D

We were tokkin with Jambutty last night about tactics. We knew we had to play our best players in our best positions in a formation that we were comfortable with. We could not know that Glen Johnson would have a baby, djes, but we knew that we would give ourselves a chance if we controlled the midfield and pushed Gerrard further up closer to Torres.

What we could not foresee was starting a goal down, and having our captain sent off. When we were tokkin, we also could not foresee making a double change at 59 minutes down a man. This King knows football tactics, djes, and has the balls to back it up. Taking Torres off at Trafford needing a goal, and putting N'Gog on was the right move.

I've missed Kenny.

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1391 on: January 9, 2011, 10:48:14 pm »
I am still collecting lunches and drinks from last season's betting with my colleagues and friends who support the Mancs ... This year, I have increased the bets ... The Mancs will finish 3rd this season ...

May I sig this ;D

Offline El Campeador

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1392 on: January 9, 2011, 10:49:26 pm »
The one bit that gives me hope is that I don't think Utd can play any better - they are playing well, very well, for the team they have. Chelsea, on the other hand, have several more gears if they can find them again.

Your latter point is spot on, but your leading sentence goes up in smoke if Rooney scores 2 goals over the next 9 months ;D

Offline TravisBickle

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1393 on: January 9, 2011, 10:53:05 pm »
First of all, I just want to say how proud I am of (most of) the Liverpool fans who journeyed to Old Trafford today. They were massively outnumbered by Man United supporters but still made their voices heard above all others. If anybody wanted to see what effect Dalglish has on this club, you only need to look at that alone and applaud the man's sheer presence. This more than anything is what makes Kenny's appointment so great - that the bond between the stands and the dugout has been made stronger than ever.

That aside, I found a lot to be positive about. The players had a spring in their step and showed the kind of desire that has been missing for the best part of a year now. It may be 'new manager syndrome' or just the spectacle of the occasion but if the lads put that kind of effort in between now and the end of the season, we will have saved some major face. Martin Kelly in particular impressed me, so much so that I genuinely believe he should now be our first-choice right-back. Reina was also fantastic, timely reminding of us why he's the world's best goalkeeper. Agger and Aurelio also played well, which I found surprising given their lack of football under the last manager.

The main talking point will be that face of a referee, Howard Webb, though. It's a shame that this absolute twat of a man will once again dominate the discussion ahead of the football that was on show but it honestly is high time that something was done about him. Not only does he regularly screw Liverpool over, he seems to love doing it at Old Trafford. His decision to award the penalty was just a disgrace - he couldn't see the incident, so how he came to the conclusion that Agger was in the wrong I'll never know. Gerrard? By the letter of the law, it was red and I can't deny that. However, why was Rafael not sent off for a nearly identical challenge? Why was Nigel De Jong not sent off in Johannesburg? I just want some fucking consistency and fairness for once.

It's a defeat on the day but it feels like a victory for the club. Today was the first step of a long path ahead - onwards and upwards with Kenny's red army!
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1394 on: January 9, 2011, 10:53:35 pm »
Aye. The real difference was pace and cofidence. By that i don't just mean the actual players, but pace of the pass and pace of the movement, especially down our right hand side with giggs and evra. It goes to show what confidence does to a team. For them being quicker on the ball, i thought we actually had the game by the balls a lot of the time, which is an achievement as a)we were down to 10 for so long and b) our midfield. I thought Meireles didn't look fit, in the second Lucas was knackered (not surprising) and I thought that Jonjo handled himself well bar a couple of passes and that free kick.
Yep, agreed.
They have individuals who can play better. They can concede less. Hernandez could be a very good goalscorer for them. Overall I'd agree, this is as 'poor' a United side as they've had for years (and the 97 year old Giggs was probably their best player today), but I think it's got another year or so before it needs real major surgery.
True, but by the same token I think there's players there who could be playing a lot worse, or who could get injured etc etc. Tentatively agree about the surgery point, but I think a lot of it is the combination of the fear factor they have and consistently playing on a (metaphorical) downhill slope. It greatly irritates me that teams haven't sniffed their weakness and gone and had a go like they have against us under Hodgson, Utd under Fungus have nigh on perfected the art of unlocking locked defensive doors, but there's nothing to be frightened of in that team for so many to play them with that kind of timidity.

Oh well. I don't want it to happen but it might be good for us as a fanbase if they finally take that record - psychologically it's been a millstone around our necks for far too long and I think we (as a club) have put ourselves under ludicrous pressure because of it.
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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1395 on: January 9, 2011, 10:57:11 pm »
Oh well. I don't want it to happen but it might be good for us as a fanbase if they finally take that record - psychologically it's been a millstone around our necks for far too long and I think we (as a club) have put ourselves under ludicrous pressure because of it.

Personally, I am not frightened by the prospect of the Mancs taking that record ... Still, it would be hilarious if Kenny manages to get to the No19 before Ferguson ... Next season, of course ...  ;)
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1396 on: January 9, 2011, 10:59:13 pm »
Personally, I am not frightened by the prospect of the Mancs taking that record ... Still, it would be hilarious if Kenny manages to get to the No19 before Ferguson ... Next season, of course ...  ;)


This would make up for everything and even more.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1397 on: January 9, 2011, 11:01:17 pm »
mm that Zonal marking tactic diagram is a bit off imo.

Meireles and Gerrard were on opposite sides for one.

Gerrards movements were more wide left or tuck in behind Torres + all the space inbetween.
Meireles spent a lot of time moving from alongside lucas, out to the wide right and then tracking back.

Kuyt/Maxi were playing almost like two support strikers behind Torres at times.

Cant say its 'kenny's tactic' though, he only had the players for hours.

Offline Suarez325

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1398 on: January 9, 2011, 11:01:31 pm »
I think/thought (rightly or wrongly) that Gerrard flew in because of Meireles shitting out. Just an assumption mind, but looking back on it, it felt like he was showing him what he should be doing, though, going in a bit too heavy if we are honest about it. As both incidents happened virtually one after the other.

I thought that as well. Everyone was getting on Meireles back for melting from that challenge and SG was trying to make a point (and failed spectacularly)

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Re: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game
« Reply #1399 on: January 9, 2011, 11:02:28 pm »
They have'nt "played well" in an age. Maybe they don't have it anymore. Maybe this is as good as it get's for them.

At the end of the day, they're still the only team who is unbeaten in the league. I was watching the game today thinking "They'll never ever win the league playing like that", but the problem is that all the others are playing even worse. How the fuck they have gone without losing yet is beyond me, but they're quite likely to win the league in my view.

Another big problem is that the only other teams who are close to them are City and Arsenal. I'm still not sure whether City have it in them to win games on a consistant basis. Especially, with what could be another busy transfer-window for them. They already have Dzeko who'll have to bed in and for whom they'll have to change their line-up. Add one or two more new players and it could get difficult. And I'm afraid Arsenal will do what they do every year. Injury to van Persie once he gets going again and then they'll just crumble.