Author Topic: Freedom of speech  (Read 87779 times)

Offline TepidT2O

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Freedom of speech
« on: January 10, 2015, 11:36:38 am »
In the wake of the atrocities in France

What should be allowed to say, not allowed to say?

Should we be allowed to offend? Where is the line drawn?



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Offline Sir Harvest Fields

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2015, 11:38:08 am »
Fuck off?

Ive been called allsorts and ive not been offended but the next person might be offended.
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Offline Red Genius

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2015, 11:39:56 am »
ill say what i feel, anywhere.....good luck to anyone trying to censor me.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2015, 11:40:47 am »
Fuck off?

Ive been called allsorts and ive not been offended but the next person might be offended.
Take the Saudi blogger who has been sentenced to 1000 lashes and 10 years in gaol for "criticising Mohammed."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30744693

Clearly batshit, but some who have draconian blasphemy laws reintroduced in this country.
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Offline Sir Harvest Fields

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2015, 11:42:40 am »
I also think its the manner its which the comments are delivered. If im in the pub and having a laugh and say ' hahaha dont be a c*nt ' thats ok.  If i twat some bloke after i call him a c*nt thats agressive. context i suppose.
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Offline SP

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2015, 11:43:37 am »
ill say what i feel, anywhere.....good luck to anyone trying to censor me.

Did any else read that as "Ban me"? I could curtail your ability to say anything on RAWK. Freedom of speech clearly only practically exists for the message, not the medium used to communicate it.

Online GreatEx

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2015, 11:46:40 am »
In the wake of the atrocities in France

What should be allowed to say, not allowed to say?

Should we be allowed to offend? Where is the line drawn?

I think the laws we have in most western countries are about right. No sacred cows, but libel and incitation to violence are clearly unacceptable. Hence Inspire exceeded the reasonable limits of free speech since it named specific targets for assassination, but Charlie Hebdo most certainly did not, since it served only to mock and not to intimidate.

The grey area for me is stuff like neo-Nazi propaganda that doesn't specifically incite violence but promotes a racist agenda. It's abhorrent, distasteful and moronic, and anyone who writes it or reads it is a loathsome c*nt. Should it be illegal? There is an argument that holding such a belief system leads inevitably to violence, but you could also argue that about religious beliefs that paint all non-believers as the enemy. So where do you draw the line in terms of causality?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 11:48:26 am by GreatEx »

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2015, 11:49:40 am »
I'm not so sure about western freedoms.... The libel laws in the UK prevent free and open discussion of science as people can be sued for stating that their opinion is that the science is rubbish.  I don think this is appropriate.

Im not sure the French have freedom of expression either.  I can see no reason for banning the Burqa, it's a freedom of expression whether they like it or not.
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Offline Red Genius

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2015, 11:55:05 am »
Did any else read that as "Ban me"? I could curtail your ability to say anything on RAWK. Freedom of speech clearly only practically exists for the message, not the medium used to communicate it.

well get your knives sharpened - wasnt a dig at you or RAWK, as you very well know ill speak my mind, you as an individual may not agree, as a forum we attempt to keep to the rules.

You are however trigger happy if you thought otherwise from my statement, no rawk rules broken there pal.
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Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2015, 11:55:43 am »
FOS is something I find it hard to have a strong opinion on.  It is something that can be used for good and evil.

You cant even balance it out by saying you can only say something if it lawful, as many countries have quite despicable laws.

As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline Magix

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2015, 11:56:37 am »
There's a cultural slant to such freedoms. Secularism is held above all in France so your right to express your religion is limited to the private space. Also, the niqab is banned on grounds of posing a potential security risk.

Offline SP

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2015, 11:58:38 am »
well get your knives sharpened - wasnt a dig at you or RAWK, as you very well know ill speak my mind, you as an individual may not agree, as a forum we attempt to keep to the rules.

You are however trigger happy if you thought otherwise from my statement, no rawk rules broken there pal.

You did not break any rules. It was your statement that you would say what you want anywhere that was trivially voidable.

Offline BlackandWhitePaul

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2015, 11:59:59 am »

Offline Red Genius

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2015, 12:00:58 pm »
You did not break any rules. It was your statement that you would say what you want anywhere that was trivially voidable.

yeah? is that an issue, myself having an opinion?
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Offline SP

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2015, 12:04:49 pm »
yeah? is that an issue, myself having an opinion?

You have completely missed my point. I was not going to ban you, just illustrating that your medium of speech is constrained. You cannot say what you want anywhere. You can say what you want, but the medium for that message is constrained.

Offline AB LFC

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2015, 12:06:19 pm »
Go to South London and just talk to someone on the phone, casually throwing in the words paki and nigger in the conversation. Then come back and talk about freedom of speech. After all, you're not actually calling anyone those words, you're just saying them to someone on the phone. Right?

Charlie Hebdo obviously weren't expecting such a brutal reaction, but they still knew what they were doing in the first place, which was to offend a particular group of people.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 12:10:59 pm by AB LFC »

Offline SP

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2015, 12:08:06 pm »
Freedom of speech is not freedom from the consequences of your speech.

Online GreatEx

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2015, 12:09:28 pm »
I'm not so sure about western freedoms.... The libel laws in the UK prevent free and open discussion of science as people can be sued for stating that their opinion is that the science is rubbish.  I don think this is appropriate.

Im not sure the French have freedom of expression either.  I can see no reason for banning the Burqa, it's a freedom of expression whether they like it or not.

What exactly are the laws on science discussion? I'm not in the UK so I have no idea. I can understand why it would be libellous to trash someone's research without basis, as that is an attack on the individual's reputation and could cost them financially if it leads to their findings being dismissed incorrectly. I'm assuming there's no laws against actually trying to disprove someone's research, or arguing against scientific concepts rather than an individual's work; e.g. I'm assuming it's not illegal to write a scientific paper in support of Creationism or against evolution?

The burqa's a tough one. I know that in Australia it is illegal to wear a balaclava when walking the streets; the law was simply to prevent people committing crimes under the cover of anonymity. So it would be easy to extend the law to any clothing that obscures one's identity like the niqab (veil). Whether France had such a law they could leverage or not, I am unsure. But they also banned the wearing of crucifixes in schools, did they not? So yes, freedom of expression of religion is curtailed in France, and I'm assuming the crucifix ban was thrown in as a leveller to the niqab ban. That is hard to defend, as much as I personally resent the burqa and niqab.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 12:13:26 pm by GreatEx »

Offline Red Genius

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2015, 12:10:12 pm »
You have completely missed my point. I was not going to ban you, just illustrating that your medium of speech is constrained. You cannot say what you want anywhere. You can say what you want, but the medium for that message is constrained.
and you've missed my point, within the parameters of RAWK, there was no justifiable reason to claim 'anyone else read that as ban me'

bang out of order mate.
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Offline BlackandWhitePaul

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2015, 12:14:42 pm »
and you've missed my point, within the parameters of RAWK, there was no justifiable reason to claim 'anyone else read that as ban me'

bang out of order mate.

The way I seen it, that was nothing more than tongue in cheek and pretty much nothing to be upset about.   

Relax man and get yourself ready to watch those dopey Mackems get shafted    :wave

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2015, 12:16:32 pm »
We can have guidelines but everything has to be judged on it's own merits.
Freedom of speech is not the only right a person has.
Of course you have the right to insult and offend but you shouldn't have the right to stand outside there house screaming abuse everyday.
The trolls always argue we should have full freedom of speech to allow us to protest our political beliefs.what law stops them from doing that. there isn't one. that's not the argument.
What they really want is to cause as much heartache as possible with impunity.
That's not freedom of speech to me. that's carte blanche to tell lies and malicious gossip.
People have the right to be protected from malice and not be driven to a nervous breakdown by warped sick minds. that right has priority over a trolls right to bombard them with malicious lies and abuse.
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Offline Red Genius

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2015, 12:17:49 pm »
The way I seen it, that was nothing more than tongue in cheek and pretty much nothing to be upset about.   

Relax man and get yourself ready to watch those dopey Mackems get shafted    :wave

haha you'll be your element  when we hand them a new arse
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Offline macca888

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2015, 12:18:34 pm »
Go to South London and just talk to someone on the phone, casually throwing in the words paki and nigger in the conversation. Then come back and talk about freedom of speech. After all, you're not actually calling anyone those words, you're just saying them to someone on the phone. Right?

Charlie Hebdo obviously weren't expecting such a brutal reaction, but they still knew what they were doing in the first place, which was to offend a particular group of people.

They were not offending a particular group of people. They were lampooning a particular belief or idea. Don't fall into the trap of classing Islam as a race, or the trap of equating race and beliefs. They are not the same things. And in your example, people are still free to use that type of speech if they choose. As far as I know, it is not a crime to use them because in isolation, they wouldn't be classed as hate speech. It is a crime for someone to react to them with violence though.
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Offline BlackandWhitePaul

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2015, 12:24:32 pm »
haha you'll be your element  when we hand them a new arse
Damn right, I might even put a picture up on here of me doing a cartwheel round the sitting room he heh.

Ohh, and in the match thread, some fucker has had a pop at me for typing out "TAKE NEY PRISONERS"   :P

Offline Red Genius

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2015, 12:30:54 pm »
Damn right, I might even put a picture up on here of me doing a cartwheel round the sitting room he heh.

Ohh, and in the match thread, some fucker has had a pop at me for typing out "TAKE NEY PRISONERS"   :P

hahaha  my brothers wives bro ( know sounds like one of them stories!) is a mackem... strange as his aurl boy played at pompey and the Alex! hope we smash them :)
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2015, 12:37:39 pm »
For me the line is one of something which is intended to provoke or incite violence/illegal actions. There is no freedom to not be offended. The point on to what extent I can tolerate some political viewpoints/ideologies does make me a little hypocritical as I have a great deal of sympathy for eg the post-war German laws.
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Offline electricghost

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2015, 12:41:45 pm »
If you accept the premise Muslims, as a religious group should not have the same protections as a racial group, which I'm not sure i do...
Are you suggesting that all 'ideas' are fare game for parody, no matter how offensive?

There are people who believe that Bigfoot is real, and they believe it just as strongly as Muslims believe their God to be real. Do you think the Bigfootists should be free from parody ?
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Offline goalrushatgoodison

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2015, 12:42:35 pm »
As with all freedom, the freedom to speak comes with a responsibility not to abuse that freedom.
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Offline BlackandWhitePaul

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2015, 12:46:24 pm »
hahaha  my brothers wives bro ( know sounds like one of them stories!) is a mackem... strange as his aurl boy played at pompey and the Alex! hope we smash them :)
My Auntie married a Mackem and he's the only one amongst dozens of Toon fans in the Family.

I wouldn't care, from a distance he does look quite normal    ;D

He's a great bloke though and I wouldn't hold it against him where he was born and the useless team he follows.

Offline Red Genius

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2015, 12:50:58 pm »
My Auntie married a Mackem and he's the only one amongst dozens of Toon fans in the Family.

I wouldn't care, from a distance he does look quite normal    ;D

He's a great bloke though and I wouldn't hold it against him where he was born and the useless team he follows.

genuinely made me :lmao - games on ill catch you later x
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Offline Haemoglobin

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2015, 01:18:24 pm »
For me the line is one of something which is intended to provoke or incite violence/illegal actions. There is no freedom to not be offended. The point on to what extent I can tolerate some political viewpoints/ideologies does make me a little hypocritical as I have a great deal of sympathy for eg the post-war German laws.
That's where I'm at, and I think 'clear intent' has an important role to play... but of course, the objective clarity of a writer/artist's intent is always open to question, especially when it comes to sophisticated and subtle uses of irony in making your statemtent. It almost feels like a cop-out to try to reduce the possibility of misinterpretation, misreading of tone, by telegraphing what you're doing in a foolproof way that anyone can understand, but you can see why many will attempt to subtract some of the sublety from their original draft of a satirical piece when it goes to press.

A good example is the swastika - in some places, you do not have permission to reproduce that symbol in your work, because its historical connotations have made it a 'bad' image. But the swastika can be used to ridicule nazism and fascism/intolerance in general, it can be used to graphically illustrate just how despicable the nazis were/are, and it is a very significant symbol in our dark past, it is a historical artifact of sorts. The reasons for banning its use in media are understandable, admirable even, but are they also misguided?

It's a tricky one, same with the use of racist stereotypes to make your anti-racist point, because these images hold great power to offend and evoke fear and disgust in certain sections of our multicultural society... but is that really a good enough reason to remove them, to make art more "palatable", with no attention paid to the context and the creator's intent?
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Offline gregor

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2015, 01:19:34 pm »
As with all freedom, the freedom to speak comes with a responsibility not to abuse that freedom.

Absolutely. But that responsibility lies with the individual, not with the law. If a well known rock star who has taken heroin says "everyone should do heroin, it's amazing" that's irresponsible as he's influential and taking heroin is pretty dangerous. But he should be allowed to say that legally.

Offline Haemoglobin

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2015, 01:23:23 pm »
I should also say that a swastika can be a very very funny thing when used cleverly. Some amazing jewish comedians and writers have been pretty fearless when it comes to this sort of thing, but it's definitely not to everyone's taste.
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Offline B0151?

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2015, 01:41:29 pm »
Well, I believe in free speech, but sometimes I feel like people use free speech like going into an Irish pub and calling Irish people violent drunk bastards. Sure, the violent drunk bastard who takes exception to it should definitely be prosecuted if he beats you half to death, but at the same time... Did you really have to cause so much tension? What's your point other than to stir shit up? (That's definitely not meant to be an analogy for what happened in France btw.)

That's how I feel about some of the stuff I see. I don't think it should be illegal, I just disagree with it being said. Like I wish Daily Mail would just fuck off but would of course be outraged if someone murdered their reporters or threatened them with violence. There is a right to offend (I guess) but I don't particularly agree with needling groups unless you're making points that stir some conversation that may result in things changing for the better. I've always thought the 'anti-PC' campaign were daft, I think a good society is a considerate tolerant society that know how damaging words can be.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 01:52:35 pm by Bakez0151 »

Offline Macphisto80

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2015, 01:51:28 pm »
Depends on the context of the subject and the point you're trying to make on it. Just coming out with abuse to offend for the sake of it or to just cause controversy is wrong.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2015, 01:57:41 pm »
Depends on your definition of free.

Depends on how free you want to be compared to how free the system wants you to be.

Some people are more free than others.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2015, 02:20:27 pm »
Depends on your definition of free.

Depends on how free you want to be compared to how free the system wants you to be.

Some people are more free than others.


I think there are far better ways of expressing that sentiment than that particular image. It's actually a bit daft really, seeing as you can choose not to do most of those things without punishment by anyone in authority, at least in our developed societies. You can also choose not to "pay your taxes" or "obey the law", as long as you're prepared for the (proportionate, hopefully) consequences.

No one is remotely arsed if you don't "have some kids" (put in larger capital letters, for some reason), except maybe your ma.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2015, 02:33:37 pm »
It's that purely semantic viewpoint that makes the image relevant.  If you're going to nitpick over the specific details rather than acknowledge the overall context of the message then you have to ask yourself what freedom means to you?

Try thinking about what the image DOESN'T say?

Don't ask questions; do as you are told; don't rock the boat; conform and be rewarded; hate who we tell you to hate; don't trust people; you can only be happy this particular way etc etc
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2015, 02:38:18 pm »
I should also say that a swastika can be a very very funny thing when used cleverly. Some amazing jewish comedians and writers have been pretty fearless when it comes to this sort of thing, but it's definitely not to everyone's taste.

If ever there was a symbol that needs reclaiming.
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