Topic: Man Utd vs Liverpool-In Game Commentary & Post game shite...

[RossoBianchi]

There's nothing inane about it.

OK, cheers Mook.

[guest]

No lad just don’t quote me first. Then you can avoid my awful banter …its pretty easy really.

Okay 'lad', will do.

Hope Callum Best regretted goading the escort.

[JohnnoWhite]

It'll never change.

Sometimes I wonder if the mancs have got any songs that aren't about Heysel or Gerrard's missus. They were singing "if you hate fucking scousers clap your hands" against Rangers the other night, I mean - Wayne Rooney?

I'd fly a plane into their fucking stadium if it were up to me.

Dearie, dearie me. So it'll never change eh? No wonder our country's up shit creek with bollux like you've openly posted here.

So let's get right to it shall we? By your "laws" because there's loonies wearing United red and singing moronic shite about people whose lives were tragically lost at Hillsborough, the Liverpool loons are vindicated to reply in similar kind are they? Think well before committing fingers to keyboard mate.

Let me tell you about how it was in 1958 shall I so you think about what you want to respond with?

I was just 12 and I was in awe of the Babes because they were ours - and I don't mean they were "United fan" ours. They were ours because they were of our class, our communities  and they shared our hopes and dreams. No fucking Bentleys with blacked-out windows driving up to the ground on match days back then brother. They came on the bus or as in Duncan Edwards' case, on his push-bike.

When that plane crashed at Munich, our entire street in Ardwick - which was a majority blue area - went into mourning. Curtains were drawn on every fucking house - 2-ups and 2-downs terraced workers cottages they were with an outside shithouse - just like the ones that used to be all around Anfield.

And here's the really telling quality piece mate. Do you know the name of the very first club on the phone to offer any help it could to support my club in its worst ever hours of desperate need?

It was Liverpool football club - offering to loan players so that my club could cope with the enormity of its loss and get back on its feet.

I'll never ever forget that wonderful gesture from one great football club to another.

So please don't pedal your Munich hatred shite on here or anywhere else when you know fuck-all about how it REALLY was.

[Mook]

Dearie, dearie me. So it'll never change eh? No wonder our country's up shit creek with bollux like you've openly posted here.

So let's get right to it shall we? By your "laws" because there's loonies wearing United red and singing moronic shite about people whose lives were tragically lost at Hillsborough, the Liverpool loons are vindicated to reply in similar kind are they? Think well before committing fingers to keyboard mate.

Let me tell you about how it was in 1958 shall I so you think about what you want to respond with?

I was just 12 and I was in awe of the Babes because they were ours - and I don't mean they were "United fan" ours. They were ours because they were of our class, our communities  and they shared our hopes and dreams. No fucking Bentleys with blacked-out windows driving up to the ground on match days back then brother. They came on the bus or as in Duncan Edwards' case, on his push-bike.

When that plane crashed at Munich, our entire street in Ardwick - which was a majority blue area - went into mourning. Curtains were drawn on every fucking house - 2-ups and 2-downs terraced workers cottages they were with an outside shithouse - just like the ones that used to be all around Anfield.

And here's the really telling quality piece mate. Do you know the name of the very first club on the phone to offer any help it could to support my club in its worst ever hours of desperate need?

It was Liverpool football club - offering to loan players so that my club could cope with the enormity of its loss and get back on its feet.

I'll never ever forget that wonderful gesture from one great football club to another.

So please don't pedal your Munich hatred shite on here or anywhere else when you know fuck-all about how it REALLY was.

Newsflash, it's not 1958.

I know Liverpool helped out after the plane crash but times have changed & they're not my laws, it's human nature. I don't go to games & sing about Munich or make plane gestures but I accept that in response to complete Manc bile we have to put up with every time we go there, some people will & to be honest I'm not going to get on my high horse about it.

While I'm at it, what's with all the working class stuff in your post? I'm no fucking millionaire footballer, I come from a very working class background myself, just like the people who sing horrible songs & just like the other people who don't. You might want to have a read of your post again & see how much of a senile old twat you come across as.

PS, What do you reckon fat arse thinks when you lot are clapping about hating scousers & burning them on Bonfires btw?

[John C]

Okey.


1) Rafa has LEFT. Let's get over the fact please and leave him be. Roy is manager, so let's move on from the Rafa did this, rafa did that comparisons. Rafa had a poor record at OT but Roy's away form over the last 2 years has been abysmal to say the least.


2) We simply got over run from the word go; bar a 15 minute spell when we suddenly woke up and brought on Ngog and were 2-0 down, we were shite. We were shite last week, we were shite the week before.


3) Why can't we play sound, attacking football from the start of the game? Chelsea can. Spurs can. Arsenal can. Don't tell me we can't, not with the talent and quality we have in the side. We didn't become shite over night.


4) Roy will and is entitled to the flak he is getting. It comes with the job. Kenny took some flak years back for dropping Molby in favour of Whelan and subsequently Spackman. Souness got flak for just about every bloody decision he made because he was an idiot. And Roy Evans, Houllier and Rafa have all had their fair share of negative comments made about their management.

Fair comments over all mate but to be honest we didn't become shit over night we became shit over more than a full season and I really don't know how we are going to rip ourselves out of it except for now, accept we've had far tougher games than most teams and the rest of the season is in front of us.

[JohnnoWhite]

Well as long as there's folks around that are prepared to perpetuate the problem then perhaps you're right. Maybe we should all bow to the inevitable collapse of anything approaching civilised behaviour between ordinary working people in - dare I say it - a civilised society.

And there's no brownie points for your newsflash patronisation either. I know the fucking date lad.

It's today's behaviours that I find totally unacceptable to the extent that to call the perpetrators "animals" is an insult to animals.

[sinnermichael]

as if baconface can accuse torres of "cheating" to get o'shea sent off when he's got that diving twat nani on the pitch

[Mook]

Well as long as there's folks around that are prepared to perpetuate the problem then perhaps you're right. Maybe we should all bow to the inevitable collapse of anything approaching civilised behaviour between ordinary working people in - dare I say it - a civilised society.

And there's no brownie points for your newsflash patronisation either. I know the fucking date lad.

It's today's behaviours that I find totally unacceptable to the extent that to call the perpetrators "animals" is an insult to animals.

& what do you do about it exactly? Presumably make an announcement over the PA or get Fred to Red to address the 60,000 twats who sing 'murderers' before the game.

Didn't work did it?

[weebroalan]

& what do you do about it exactly? Presumably make an announcement over the PA or get Fred to Red to address the 60,000 twats who sing 'murderers' before the game.

Didn't work did it?

Using the fact that the Mancs sing their songs about Heysel and Hillsborough cannot excuse our behaviour.

We are the fans that pride ourselve on being the most knowledgeable about, we're supposed to have 'class' and not lower ourselves to the depths of others.

We take the moral high ground over small time fans and clubs who come to Anfield and sing 'who are ya,' 'sign on'

I know that when Utd come to Anfield you don't get the MainnStand and the Kemlyn singing Munich but at OT you see mothers and daughters around the ground singing it BUT

Since when did we use the behaviour of Manchester United (or Everton) fans to decide how we would act?

It's horrible listening to their bile and it's tempting to retaliate with like for like but it's wrong.

The Liverpool Way my arse

Shankly would be proud of his boys comin down the road

Taking the moral highground re: 'Who are ya' is a joke when we tolerate this.

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

Right what is the rule regarding oshea bringing down torres. I beleive he should have been sent of and he thought torres was going to get the ball and score. Ie,  proffesional foul. Is that correct? as numourous people have told me the decision made was the correct one.

[Mook]

Using the fact that the Mancs sing their songs about Heysel and Hillsborough cannot excuse our behaviour.

We are the fans that pride ourselve on being the most knowledgeable about, we're supposed to have 'class' and not lower ourselves to the depths of others.

We take the moral high ground over small time fans and clubs who come to Anfield and sing 'who are ya,' 'sign on'

I know that when Utd come to Anfield you don't get the MainnStand and the Kemlyn singing Munich but at OT you see mothers and daughters around the ground singing it BUT

Since when did we use the behaviour of Manchester United (or Everton) fans to decide how we would act?

It's horrible listening to their bile and it's tempting to retaliate with like for like but it's wrong.

The Liverpool Way my arse

Shankly would be proud of his boys comin down the road

Taking the moral highground re: 'Who are ya' is a joke when we tolerate this.

Like I said in my earlier post, I don't do it myself.

As for the Liverpool way, our fans have been doing it since Shankly was around.

[guest]

Since when did we use the behaviour of Manchester United (or Everton) fans to decide how we would act?

It's horrible listening to their bile and it's tempting to retaliate with like for like but it's wrong.

The Liverpool Way my arse

For about 30 years.

I'd say 90% sung it yesterday at full time. Not saying it's right or wrong, but 90% of Liverpool fans who are deemed to go everywhere (that's how the credit system works) sang it. A fair proportion of them have contributed throughout the years to the 'Liverpool Way' you've spoken of.

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

Why is the Liverpool Way spewed around with regards too everything at the minute?

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

Having a go at our fans after listening to their shite, which they sing every week, is fucking grim.

Give the fuckers it back both barrels.

[weebroalan]

For about 30 years.

I'd say 90% sung it yesterday at full time. Not saying it's right or wrong, but 90% of Liverpool fans who are deemed to go everywhere (that's how the credit system works) sang it. A fair proportion of them have contributed throughout the years to the 'Liverpool Way' you've spoken of.

I'd say you are right about the number singing at the end.

I understand why it is sung.

It's just hypocrisy to label other fans as 'classless' for some of their much less serious behaviours and chants.

[guest]

I'd say you are right about the number singing at the end.

I understand why it is sung.

It's just hypocrisy to label other fans as 'classless' for some of their much less serious behaviours and chants.

I'd agree with that, but I don't know where this 'we're better than anyone' attitude ever come from in the first place. We're a right shower of bastards when we lose? Just because we are (were?) quite quick and witty and sing Beatles songs doesn't change that.

I made a thread half-cut after City away which was deleted, which is a shame as I thought it was an interesting point. As the performances get worse, we're going to get fed up with getting the piss taken out of us by a load of gobshites across the country. Our away end will turn into a nastier place, without doubt.

It's not nice but neither is standing there for 90 minutes getting it.

[weebroalan]

I'd agree with that, but I don't know where this 'we're better than anyone' attitude ever come from in the first place. We're a right shower of bastards when we lose? Just because we are (were?) quite quick and witty and sing Beatles songs doesn't change that.

I made a thread half-cut after City away which was deleted, which is a shame as I thought it was an interesting point. As the performances get worse, we're going to get fed up with getting the piss taken out of us by a load of gobshites across the country. Our away end will turn into a nastier place, without doubt.

It's not nice but neither is standing there for 90 minutes getting it.

What I meant was the way a lot of Liverpool fans - rightly or wrongly - talk about how we wouldn't stoop to sing 'who are ya' etc because we're better than that.

Anyway you're spot of with that assessment - things will get a lot worse if we continue our downward spiral on the pitch.

[Mook]

I think people say that we're classy fans to try & brush the truth under the carpet. We've got good & bad just like everyone else.

Pre-Hillsborough, the Munich stuff was par for the course with us, anyone who says otherwise is talking shite.

I wonder why the City thread was deleted...

[vicgill]

Like I said in my earlier post, I don't do it myself.

As for the Liverpool way, our fans have been doing it since Shankly was around.

Are you saying that Liverpool supporters have been singing that song when Shankly was around ?

[Mook]

Are you saying that Liverpool supporters have been singing that song when Shankly was around ?

Yep.

[Blamire]

For about 30 years.

I'd say 90% sung it yesterday at full time. Not saying it's right or wrong, but 90% of Liverpool fans who are deemed to go everywhere (that's how the credit system works) sang it. A fair proportion of them have contributed throughout the years to the 'Liverpool Way' you've spoken of.

Sorry mate but no way was there 90% people singing that at any point during or after the game. Easily 50%, but nowhere near 90%.

[Spongebob Redpants]

Yep.

Can't agree with that mate .

Not exactly sure when it started , but definately never heard it while Shankly was manager ( as far as I can recollect anyway ).

[DM Red]

id love to see Nani playing in a rugby match. i reckon the weak frail c*nt would die after one hard tackle. he has no pain treshold whatsoever. weak feeble piece of shit. yea he makes the most of it to get free kicks. but alot of time the weed seems to be in genuine pain after being barely touched.

disappointing result. our defence is a big problem right now.

[Mook]

Can't agree with that mate .

Not exactly sure when it started , but definately never heard it while Shankly was manager ( as far as I can recollect anyway ).

It was deffo sung in the 70's, I said Shankly was still around, didn't say he was our manager at the time.

[Hazell]

Right what is the rule regarding oshea bringing down torres. I beleive he should have been sent of and he thought torres was going to get the ball and score. Ie,  proffesional foul. Is that correct? as numourous people have told me the decision made was the correct one.

I don't think he should have gone. Obviously I was screaming for it at the time, but I don't think it was a clear goalscoring opportunity as Van Der Saar may have got thier first. It's similar to Carragher bringing down Owen at Anfield last year and the Mancs wanted him off. That wasn't a clear goalscoring opportunity either as he was going wide and Johnson may have got round to cover.

No surprise to hear Ferguson being a hypocrite and c*nt though.

[Nick110581]

Guy at work says Murderers to most Scouse fans in the Office. Classless c*nt.

We have them too though. Disgusting behaviour.

Sat near some lads at Pompey away last year - they were fucking horrible. Disgrace to our support.

[guest]

Sorry mate but no way was there 90% people singing that at any point during or after the game. Easily 50%, but nowhere near 90%.

Disagree although no way to gauge, really. I said 90% because that was LOUD at full time. Everyone near me was giving it. The horrible bastards were giving it the choking gestures on the way out and a fair few snapped. Lads I wouldn't expect to.

[Borninbethlehem]

Turned on the tv last night to catch MOTD analysis. Usually can't stand Shearer and Lawro and their general bullshit remarks, but Shearer got it spot on last night.

1) He showed examples (notably in the first half) where one of our midfielders would receive a ball with their back to Man Utd's goal, only to pass that ball sideways or backwards, UNAWARE of the space that was behind them, of which they could have run into, taken the ball forward and thus would have seen Torres to pass to. Now, I'm not sure whether our it is because our players have poor awareness or that they just don't have the confidence in their ability to take the ball forward up the pitch. I'm glad Shearer bought this up, because we could be alot more attacking if the players were aware of the space around them.

2) He stuck up for our Nando, saying that the service to him was poor, especially in the first half, but when the players ran into SPACE and slid a through ball to Nando, Nando won us a penalty AND a freekick that led to both our goals.

Got to hand it to Alan, even though he is still a boring old git.

[Zinc]

I'm not criticizing Hodgson because he was brought in by this board - I'm only suggesting that he doesn't get the automatic support that I gave other managers because of it. That's not something I can explain, it's just my own personal feelings. I've personally been against many decisions that the board and the owners have taken. It would take something special for me to line up unquestioningly behind one of their decisions, because their track record is, frankly, shit.

Like I suggested, and you picked up on, Hodgson's football results on the pitch may take me from "uncomfortable observer of Hodgson's appointment" to "outright proponent of the Hodgson Way". So far, he's really given me little to suggest the change was for footballing reasons, that we got a superior manager in the footballing sense for the 11.5 million quid we spent to upgrade managers. But football's an afterthought.

Business wise, the direction is alarming. The squad is getting older in a hurry due to the age of his recruits and the age of the Rafa-era players that Hodgson has chosen to keep, and the money's running out. We'll have to replace Konchesky, Kuyt, Gerrard, Carra, Maxi, Cole, Poulsen, Jovanovic, Kyrgiakos, and Aurelio within the next 3 years. Even Torres, Meireles and Johnson are the wrong side of 25. Even if this flock of players starts bringing in results, we're gonna be fucked soon. We don't have any Patos or Messis on our team. The youngest player who has a claim to the word "starter" is Lucas, and he's the most picked on member of this team, and I don't expect him to be around for much longer. Insua is gone. Ayala is on loan. Mikel San Jose starts for Bilbao. Two kids were swapped for Konchesky. Nemeth is in Greece. The Riojas bought for 2015 are being popped without any thought to Best Drinking Date.

But getting back to Rafa - I disagree with your statement that "we" thought he should have gone for the jugular when he "settled" for something less. Rafa had the right approach - first become dead hard to beat, then worry about converting the draws into wins. Everyone bitched about the draws in 2008/2009 - well I'd give my left arsecheek for that many draws every season. Every season Baz. I would take that many draws every season. Let me say that again so that there is no confusion. I would take that many draws every league campaign.

You know why? Because Rafa had it right - with that many draws, and taking something like 14 points from top 4 teams (that's sick) we still had the most points that any second place team ever had. If we did that every year, we'd be within shouting distance of the title every season. Most of us just cannot wrap our limited intellect around the fact that it's not about one hand; it's about getting to the final table. Just because you create chances to see a flop, it doesn't mean you go all in every hand. It's a campaign. Fuck going for it every minute, instead be hard to beat and consistent. Take the points from home/away matchups against top opposition. That's it, djes. You don't need to go for broke against Stoke. Most times, Kuyt's opener counts, and Gerrard's shot goes in off the post. Meanwhile, you accumulate a war chest from Champions League revenue, and spend a percentage of it on a lot - a lot - of cheap, promising kids.

Instead, we did what Rafa always said not to do. We pushed harder than we should have in 2009/2010 when we didn't really have a chance at winning the hand, lost when it was obvious we weren't gonna win, took that as an indictment of Rafa and the whole fucking system, and then tilted madly. Victims of emotion. Pathetic really.

I can't speak for most people, Baz, but my discomfort with how we look now isn't about plucking random results and comparing them. It's about the entire tournament, indeed, the entire portfolio, not an isolated case by case comparison. Rafa made it so that you didn't give a shit which fucking ball emerged of Platini's jar. On any given day, Rafa's Rojas - a portfolio full of individual results that may look questionable in isolation - looked like something I'd put my money on. On any given day. You can't say that now. Would you fancy something out of an away trip to Inter Milan right now? Would you fuck. He'd fucking rip us to shreds, then look at his watch, the fat fuck.

Whether he bought Alonso for 10m or sold him for 30m, whether he bought Mascherano or sold Sissoko, whether Crouch fired blanks or became prolific for England, whether he swapped Josemi for Kromkamp (sp?) or Dudek for Reina, whether he played Gerrard on the right or off Torres, whether he "went for it" or "settled for a draw", whether he won in Istanbul or made 2 finals in 3 years, whether he stuck with Bellamy or bought Torres, on or off, whether his team conceded 4 to Arshavin or hit Chelsea for 4 at the Bridge - Rafa earned my respect, and my support because the longterm results were overwhelmingly positive. Random decisions and results mean nothing.

If Rafa were a fund, I'd invest in it. It looks like it would feature consistent performance, profits, and dividends - possibly boring, but those are usually stellart investments. I didn't disagree with any single individual thing Rafa did, especially not fucking subs or silly shit like "going for it" because I knew that over time, I was in the right hands. Day to day decisions may have indeed been random; but the long term results were on an upward trajectory. In his shittiest year, he came within minutes of a European final. That's long term results smoothed out for ya.

Unfortunately, some of us sound like folks who sold a longterm winner at the first sign of trouble, hopped onto a risky stock, and are now peering intently at the price over the last week, while alarm bells are ringing on the one year chart. "Oh it'll be alright, Rafa lost at Trafford too, it's not so bad," they say.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Got it in a nutshell. Superb post.

[BazC]

I'm not criticizing Hodgson because he was brought in by this board - I'm only suggesting that he doesn't get the automatic support that I gave other managers because of it. That's not something I can explain, it's just my own personal feelings. I've personally been against many decisions that the board and the owners have taken. It would take something special for me to line up unquestioningly behind one of their decisions, because their track record is, frankly, shit.

Like I suggested, and you picked up on, Hodgson's football results on the pitch may take me from "uncomfortable observer of Hodgson's appointment" to "outright proponent of the Hodgson Way". So far, he's really given me little to suggest the change was for footballing reasons, that we got a superior manager in the footballing sense for the 11.5 million quid we spent to upgrade managers. But football's an afterthought.

Business wise, the direction is alarming. The squad is getting older in a hurry due to the age of his recruits and the age of the Rafa-era players that Hodgson has chosen to keep, and the money's running out. We'll have to replace Konchesky, Kuyt, Gerrard, Carra, Maxi, Cole, Poulsen, Jovanovic, Kyrgiakos, and Aurelio within the next 3 years. Even Torres, Meireles and Johnson are the wrong side of 25. Even if this flock of players starts bringing in results, we're gonna be fucked soon. We don't have any Patos or Messis on our team. The youngest player who has a claim to the word "starter" is Lucas, and he's the most picked on member of this team, and I don't expect him to be around for much longer. Insua is gone. Ayala is on loan. Mikel San Jose starts for Bilbao. Two kids were swapped for Konchesky. Nemeth is in Greece. The Riojas bought for 2015 are being popped without any thought to Best Drinking Date.

But getting back to Rafa - I disagree with your statement that "we" thought he should have gone for the jugular when he "settled" for something less. Rafa had the right approach - first become dead hard to beat, then worry about converting the draws into wins. Everyone bitched about the draws in 2008/2009 - well I'd give my left arsecheek for that many draws every season. Every season Baz. I would take that many draws every season. Let me say that again so that there is no confusion. I would take that many draws every league campaign.

You know why? Because Rafa had it right - with that many draws, and taking something like 14 points from top 4 teams (that's sick) we still had the most points that any second place team ever had. If we did that every year, we'd be within shouting distance of the title every season. Most of us just cannot wrap our limited intellect around the fact that it's not about one hand; it's about getting to the final table. Just because you create chances to see a flop, it doesn't mean you go all in every hand. It's a campaign. Fuck going for it every minute, instead be hard to beat and consistent. Take the points from home/away matchups against top opposition. That's it, djes. You don't need to go for broke against Stoke. Most times, Kuyt's opener counts, and Gerrard's shot goes in off the post. Meanwhile, you accumulate a war chest from Champions League revenue, and spend a percentage of it on a lot - a lot - of cheap, promising kids.

Instead, we did what Rafa always said not to do. We pushed harder than we should have in 2009/2010 when we didn't really have a chance at winning the hand, lost when it was obvious we weren't gonna win, took that as an indictment of Rafa and the whole fucking system, and then tilted madly. Victims of emotion. Pathetic really.

I can't speak for most people, Baz, but my discomfort with how we look now isn't about plucking random results and comparing them. It's about the entire tournament, indeed, the entire portfolio, not an isolated case by case comparison. Rafa made it so that you didn't give a shit which fucking ball emerged of Platini's jar. On any given day, Rafa's Rojas - a portfolio full of individual results that may look questionable in isolation - looked like something I'd put my money on. On any given day. You can't say that now. Would you fancy something out of an away trip to Inter Milan right now? Would you fuck. He'd fucking rip us to shreds, then look at his watch, the fat fuck.

Whether he bought Alonso for 10m or sold him for 30m, whether he bought Mascherano or sold Sissoko, whether Crouch fired blanks or became prolific for England, whether he swapped Josemi for Kromkamp (sp?) or Dudek for Reina, whether he played Gerrard on the right or off Torres, whether he "went for it" or "settled for a draw", whether he won in Istanbul or made 2 finals in 3 years, whether he stuck with Bellamy or bought Torres, on or off, whether his team conceded 4 to Arshavin or hit Chelsea for 4 at the Bridge - Rafa earned my respect, and my support because the longterm results were overwhelmingly positive. Random decisions and results mean nothing.

If Rafa were a fund, I'd invest in it. It looks like it would feature consistent performance, profits, and dividends - possibly boring, but those are usually stellart investments. I didn't disagree with any single individual thing Rafa did, especially not fucking subs or silly shit like "going for it" because I knew that over time, I was in the right hands. Day to day decisions may have indeed been random; but the long term results were on an upward trajectory. In his shittiest year, he came within minutes of a European final. That's long term results smoothed out for ya.

Unfortunately, some of us sound like folks who sold a longterm winner at the first sign of trouble, hopped onto a risky stock, and are now peering intently at the price over the last week, while alarm bells are ringing on the one year chart. "Oh it'll be alright, Rafa lost at Trafford too, it's not so bad," they say.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Cheers mate, good post.

Obviously I can't agree with most of it, because I have to admit, I find it sort of hypocritical that Roy doesn't get the same freedom Rafa was often awarded in the league. Sure, Rafa earned it- he 100% earned it, of course he did. Not only that, but he delivered in 2 seasons, 2 of our best ever PL finishes. My argument is simply that Roy's not been given the time to even gauge a result. Not only has he not even had 1 season, he's not even had 10 games in the league, yet we're faced with the Rafa Lament v.39894 already.

I can see your point about Roy's transfers, and yes, I agree, they baffled me. In fact, a lot of his decisions have baffled me. But at the end of the day, it's a results game, and he hasn't been given a chance to show any results. I don't think he's an improvement on Rafa on pretty much any important level, but that wasn't my point- so whilst I agree that the £11.5m (I'll take your word for it) we spent on the 'exchange' was idiotic, I don't know why it's relevant. The thing is, Roy's our manager now, and Rafa's not. Maybe that's too simple, but it's the way I choose to see it. Off the field, Rafa is a massive figure for us, because his 'dismissal' represents everything that's bad about our board. My arguments are on the field.

Seb and I discussed the relative merits of Rafa's approach and Roy's approach- I thought the results spoke for themselves sometimes. For example, Seb talked about Rafa's wide players defending against the Mancs, versus Roy's widemen giving the Mancs the space to cross. Thinking about it, Mancs scoring against us under Rafa did so from crosses pretty regularly. That's why I did the 'comparison'. And how it's random I don't know. Talking about the 'entire portfolio' isn't possible, because Roy's not had 10 games let alone a whole season, as pointed out. All we have is the games against Arsenal, Birmingham, Mancs and Man City to compare them by, and as I pointed out, they're equal on points from those games comparing this season on last. If anything, with respect, it was your comparison which was random, as the games weren't even against the same teams! Anyway, let's leave it at that.

I appreciate the fund metaphor; I'd invest in a Rafa fund over a Roy one, but it's probably more because I wouldn't invest in a Liverpool FC fund at the moment given what the highly unstable ownership situation is. Talk about risk, Rafa finished 2nd one season and 7th the next.... if that isn't volatile I don't know what is!

And 'going for the jugular' was a constant criticism of Rafa. It's the reason he was booed at Anfield in the West Ham game, after which a 0-0 draw sent us to the top of the table. Sometimes you need to take the risks, and maybe Rafa didn't. The Arsenal game springs to mind- when they played a half with 10 men and we failed to go for it. I have to admit I can't believe you even talk about him coming 'within minutes' from an Euro final. Roy Hodgson's Fulham team went to that final!

So whilst I appreciate your position, I can't agree with it.

[alfonso]

Guy at work says Murderers to most Scouse fans in the Office. Classless c*nt.

We have them too though. Disgusting behaviour.

Sat near some lads at Pompey away last year - they were fucking horrible. Disgrace to our support.

I would probably have a word with the prick.

Or a mate of mine used to print out reports of manc unemployment rates, crime statistics etc and leave them on the offenders desks.
Maybe a report on the Palace fan and the Boro fans the mancs forget existed for the murderers chants.

[SMD]

Baz, you don't remember Rafa getting irate and urging the team to step up ten yards?

[Barrowboy]

Right what is the rule regarding oshea bringing down torres. I beleive he should have been sent of and he thought torres was going to get the ball and score. Ie,  proffesional foul. Is that correct? as numourous people have told me the decision made was the correct one.

If a player denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity he must be sent from the field of play.

That is the law but like most other points of law it can be open to interpretation. Personally I didn't think it was an obvious goal-scoring opportunity as Torres was not in possession of the ball and the keeper looked certain to get to the ball before him so Webb called it right in my opinion

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

If a player denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity he must be sent from the field of play.

That is the law but like most other points of law it can be open to interpretation. Personally I didn't think it was an obvious goal-scoring opportunity as Torres was not in possession of the ball and the keeper looked certain to get to the ball before him so Webb called it right in my opinion

But oshea obviously thought it was a clear goalscoring chance? hense the fould? Thats surely the intent?

[exiledintheUSA]

But oshea obviously thought it was a clear goalscoring chance? hense the fould? Thats surely the intent?

Yep. Should have walked and Roy should have stated so in the post match interview.

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

Yep. Should have walked and Roy should have stated so in the post match interview.

Its not even been questioned in the media though. Its just accepted.

[karrmadamaii]

I have to admit I can't believe you even talk about him coming 'within minutes' from an Euro final. Roy Hodgson's Fulham team went to that final!

Nothing against your post & I respect your position/opinion, but comparing Rafa almost making a final with Roy actually making the same final isn't a fair one.

El C was putting Rafa almost taking us to a final in the context of our entire dreadful season on all acounts - clubs finances, owners, players, injuries, form, whispers of mutiny etc - and to be frank, despite our overall dreadful season, there were games when we were getting it going and boy did we look good. Not 2008/09 good but still good enough that it made us wonder that the fuck is actually happening. Rafa almost made a final in a season of severely & dramatically reduced expectations due to inexplicable reasons (not saying he wasn't to be blamed at all). Roy's Fulham on the other hand made the final which is Roy's highest point in his Fulham tenure, a full three years after he stepped in, a season which finally saw some form of consistency & direction for the club.

Don't you see the difference here? Rafa entered the Europa semis under immense pressure & depression while Roy entered it under huge promise & hope, which reflects the two absolutely different circumstances surrounding the club & each manager. There isn't anything to be compared & concluded from, really.

Not taking anything away from your post though. It was a well-reasoned view from a different angle to balance out the sentiment in El C's post.

But honestly, I've refrained from expecting us to go for the jugular until we've got that marquee attacking, goal scoring midfielder/winger to supplement Gerrard, Torres & Alonso and replace Kuyt, or whoever that's starting on the left. And to be honest, I don't mind us winning in a controlled manner, because if that's the only way we can strike that balance of Level 3 football - with Rafa starting out by setting out to control the oppposition first - then so be it. As it is, a team becomes better than another team when they control the opposition, either by sheer fear through relentless attacks, or by stifling them via deep banks of 4, or by tactically suffocating them. Whichever. With our spending power & finances, I know it's almost impossible to control our opponent via the first way, and since we're Liverpool we never consider the second way, then the third way becomes the only viable way & I've come to accept that. And frankly speaking? Rafa does let his team go for the jugular - Beşiktaş, Marseille, Birmingham, Villa, Mancs, Madrid. He still set up the team starting from a defensive standpoint then, but that didn't stop the team from going for the jugular themselves. That's the thing you see, we can and we should blame the manager often for these things, but sometimes, we must also remember that these players are supposedly the world's best players. Couldn't they decide for themselves in the game? It's not like they've just started playing 2 years ago or something.

Sorry I digressed at the end there, but you get my point.

[RedBootsTommySmith]

Turned on the tv last night to catch MOTD analysis. Usually can't stand Shearer and Lawro and their general bullshit remarks, but Shearer got it spot on last night.

1) He showed examples (notably in the first half) where one of our midfielders would receive a ball with their back to Man Utd's goal, only to pass that ball sideways or backwards, UNAWARE of the space that was behind them, of which they could have run into, taken the ball forward and thus would have seen Torres to pass to. Now, I'm not sure whether our it is because our players have poor awareness or that they just don't have the confidence in their ability to take the ball forward up the pitch. I'm glad Shearer bought this up, because we could be alot more attacking if the players were aware of the space around them.

2) He stuck up for our Nando, saying that the service to him was poor, especially in the first half, but when the players ran into SPACE and slid a through ball to Nando, Nando won us a penalty AND a freekick that led to both our goals.

Got to hand it to Alan, even though he is still a boring old git.

Didn't see the MOTD analysis, but from what you say, I'd agree.

There was one in the first half, KonChelsea got the ball in the clear 10-yards into the Man U half.  No-one near him.  He tries to cross first time, mis-hits and it ends up in row Z of the Stretford End.  I remember thinking what would Evra or Ashley Cole have done in the same circumstance?  Not just picking on KonChelsea, he's not alone.  Is it a case of lack of skill, nouse or confidence?  Either way, it was a waste of an offensive threat.

[Shanks1965]

....and another thing.

Why was Torres marking Berbatov and KonChelsea standing inside the post? Surely to god the DEFENDER would have done a better job of marking the attacker and putting a strong challenge in? Given Torres's weak attempt of making any attempt to win the ball he would have been better stood on the line anyway and may even have done that better than the full back who for some inexplicable reason drifted to stand immediately behind Reinna?

All round crap defending gifting them a simple first goal.

[John C]

....and another thing.

Why was Torres holding Berbatov nicely in place for his header

Fixed that for you mate although it was apparently our manager that ensured Berbatov was well placed for the nod in rather than getting goal side. It just has to be Roy's fault.