Topic: Man Utd vs Liverpool-In Game Commentary & Post game shite...

[redoneusa]

As the game went on I thought we were good for the draw at least. But we did look vulnerable to crosses into the box. And as it turned it that was a major un-doing of us.
 

[redforlife]

Has there been any news on whether Konchesky's injured?  I just can't get my head around that substitution otherwise.  It was something Rafa used to do early on, changing full backs for no apparent reason late on in games, often costing us points, and can't understand why Roy did the same today.

[daveonthespionkop1900]

this feels worse than when they have really put us to the sword, our fight back had balls.....next time i want Gerrard to wrap the camera round Fergies head

[John C]

Dont drag me into this, ya balloonhead

  ya loone.

[The Jackal]

I'm not criticizing Hodgson because he was brought in by this board - I'm only suggesting that he doesn't get the automatic support that I gave other managers because of it. That's not something I can explain, it's just my own personal feelings. I've personally been against many decisions that the board and the owners have taken. It would take something special for me to line up unquestioningly behind one of their decisions, because their track record is, frankly, shit.

Like I suggested, and you picked up on, Hodgson's football results on the pitch may take me from "uncomfortable observer of Hodgson's appointment" to "outright proponent of the Hodgson Way". So far, he's really given me little to suggest the change was for footballing reasons, that we got a superior manager in the footballing sense for the 11.5 million quid we spent to upgrade managers. But football's an afterthought.

Business wise, the direction is alarming. The squad is getting older in a hurry due to the age of his recruits and the age of the Rafa-era players that Hodgson has chosen to keep, and the money's running out. We'll have to replace Konchesky, Kuyt, Gerrard, Carra, Maxi, Cole, Poulsen, Jovanovic, Kyrgiakos, and Aurelio within the next 3 years. Even Torres, Meireles and Johnson are the wrong side of 25. Even if this flock of players starts bringing in results, we're gonna be fucked soon. We don't have any Patos or Messis on our team. The youngest player who has a claim to the word "starter" is Lucas, and he's the most picked on member of this team, and I don't expect him to be around for much longer. Insua is gone. Ayala is on loan. Mikel San Jose starts for Bilbao. Two kids were swapped for Konchesky. Nemeth is in Greece. The Riojas bought for 2015 are being popped without any thought to Best Drinking Date.

But getting back to Rafa - I disagree with your statement that "we" thought he should have gone for the jugular when he "settled" for something less. Rafa had the right approach - first become dead hard to beat, then worry about converting the draws into wins. Everyone bitched about the draws in 2008/2009 - well I'd give my left arsecheek for that many draws every season. Every season Baz. I would take that many draws every season. Let me say that again so that there is no confusion. I would take that many draws every league campaign.

You know why? Because Rafa had it right - with that many draws, and taking something like 14 points from top 4 teams (that's sick) we still had the most points that any second place team ever had. If we did that every year, we'd be within shouting distance of the title every season. Most of us just cannot wrap our limited intellect around the fact that it's not about one hand; it's about getting to the final table. Just because you create chances to see a flop, it doesn't mean you go all in every hand. It's a campaign. Fuck going for it every minute, instead be hard to beat and consistent. Take the points from home/away matchups against top opposition. That's it, djes. You don't need to go for broke against Stoke. Most times, Kuyt's opener counts, and Gerrard's shot goes in off the post. Meanwhile, you accumulate a war chest from Champions League revenue, and spend a percentage of it on a lot - a lot - of cheap, promising kids.

Instead, we did what Rafa always said not to do. We pushed harder than we should have in 2009/2010 when we didn't really have a chance at winning the hand, lost when it was obvious we weren't gonna win, took that as an indictment of Rafa and the whole fucking system, and then tilted madly. Victims of emotion. Pathetic really.

I can't speak for most people, Baz, but my discomfort with how we look now isn't about plucking random results and comparing them. It's about the entire tournament, indeed, the entire portfolio, not an isolated case by case comparison. Rafa made it so that you didn't give a shit which fucking ball emerged of Platini's jar. On any given day, Rafa's Rojas - a portfolio full of individual results that may look questionable in isolation - looked like something I'd put my money on. On any given day. You can't say that now. Would you fancy something out of an away trip to Inter Milan right now? Would you fuck. He'd fucking rip us to shreds, then look at his watch, the fat fuck.

Whether he bought Alonso for 10m or sold him for 30m, whether he bought Mascherano or sold Sissoko, whether Crouch fired blanks or became prolific for England, whether he swapped Josemi for Kromkamp (sp?) or Dudek for Reina, whether he played Gerrard on the right or off Torres, whether he "went for it" or "settled for a draw", whether he won in Istanbul or made 2 finals in 3 years, whether he stuck with Bellamy or bought Torres, on or off, whether his team conceded 4 to Arshavin or hit Chelsea for 4 at the Bridge - Rafa earned my respect, and my support because the longterm results were overwhelmingly positive. Random decisions and results mean nothing.

If Rafa were a fund, I'd invest in it. It looks like it would feature consistent performance, profits, and dividends - possibly boring, but those are usually stellart investments. I didn't disagree with any single individual thing Rafa did, especially not fucking subs or silly shit like "going for it" because I knew that over time, I was in the right hands. Day to day decisions may have indeed been random; but the long term results were on an upward trajectory. In his shittiest year, he came within minutes of a European final. That's long term results smoothed out for ya.

Unfortunately, some of us sound like folks who sold a longterm winner at the first sign of trouble, hopped onto a risky stock, and are now peering intently at the price over the last week, while alarm bells are ringing on the one year chart. "Oh it'll be alright, Rafa lost at Trafford too, it's not so bad," they say.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

    One of the best posts I've read on here in ages. Spot on mate.

[Tom_B]

We were awful, we are going to continue to be awful until new owners and dare I say it, a new manager are found, and at the moment at least there is no silver lining to the clouds.

Horrible when you start to give up hope.

[Aristotle]

Bugger!

Forgot that thread.

What thread is that, somone post me a link

[rednich85]

Horrible when you start to give up hope.

Thats the worst part about the whole thing.

After the news about Hicks last night/this morning, I struggled to care about today.

Until the ownership issue is sorted, we could have a reincarnated Shanks and we'd still be fucked.

[Arthurs Bar]

My biggest problem with Roy so far is that he appears to be making all the stubborn "mistakes" Rafa made. He makes odd substitutions and looks hellbent on playing his players.

I can not for the life of me understand the tactical failures of those substitutions today. Taking Meireles off (although I think someone mentioned he picked up a knock) for Jovanovic, putting Agger in for Konchesky and Ngog for Maxi. Changing the entire left flank of our team when we are weak there to begin with, but at that moment had the upper hand. They were stunned, all we had to do was go for the jugular. But he breaks up the (then) winning formula and completely offsets the balance of the team. Since he took off Meireles he should've stuck Lucas in and moved Gerrard up front with Torres.

And if there ever was "Babel time" that second goal was it. They were ours for the taking, they were looking shaky at the back and we needed to attack them directly, which just so happens to be Babel's only capability.

Now I'll support our manager, but I won't do it blindly. I have nothing to base it upon. Hodgson was brought in under the worst circumstances. Replacing the man that brought us European glory and title challenges and who was a big favourite, after reports that managers like Pellegrini, Deschampes and Hitzfeld were, up to a certain point, interested in the job. And biggest of all the undisputed King of the Kop wanted the job. Credit to Hogdson and all that, but when you are bottom on an (alleged) 5 man shortlist it's hard to strut along confident that the decision made was a purely footballing one.


I can accept that I may just be a head-in-the-sand ignorant, spoiled fan living on former glory and if so there's not a lot I can do about that and there sure as hell is a lot less that any of you can do about changing that. And I really don't give a shit if I am that unoriginal in bringing Rafa into it, but even at the absolute worst of times we always, always had something to look back on to find confidence.
When he first came here the only thing most people knew about him was that he won the league dominated by Real Madrid and Barcelona for the last half a century or so. And he was the man that came to Anfield and whose team, at times, made Liverpool look like an average Sunday league team. He was the man that brought us victories (some of them against all odds) against Chelsea, Arsenal, the Mancs, Juventus, Inter, AC Milan, Barcelona, Real Madrid. Who brought us 2 European finals in 3 years, an epic FA Cup final and many, many, many memorable wins against just about every team.
Even after a horrible, horrible game we could look back, with confidence, at the time we won at the Nou Camp, when we ended Chelsea's home streak, the 2 weeks where we scored 4 against Real Madrid and the Mancs and won Aston Villa 5-0 knowing deep down he was the man who could bring us back to that regardless of team sheets and odds.

Now we are in a situation where we stand on the brink of financial oblivion with a manager who has not won away since August 2009 (read that somewhere, if I'm wrong I stand corrected) and when he has been challenged so far as boss, failed tactically.

You can call me whatever you want. Doom monger, naysayer, ignorant, pessemistic, unsupporting or any other unoriginal thing you want. That's the way I see it, that's how I feel and there's not a single thing related to Liverpool Football Club at the moment that's telling me that it will change any time soon.

Plus we are a club that is financially heading in a direction I would rather not describe and we paid 11m to get rid of him and bring someone else in.  We are years away from those days of Madrid etc. Those days are well gone. AND you are correct that everything that does come out of our club is more or less negative.

[Kop4]

   One of the best posts I've read on here in ages. Spot on mate.

Rafa was indeed one of the best when he kept his eye on the football. Unfortunately he started to worry too much about the owners that the team.

[Arthurs Bar]

Thats the worst part about the whole thing.

After the news about Hicks last night/this morning, I struggled to care about today.

Until the ownership issue is sorted, we could have a reincarnated Shanks and we'd still be fucked.

Shit isn't it. Way I feel as well.

[walshys_mullet]

Like rednich 85 im in the same boat.

However on todays game i need to say a few things. Firstly i dont think we played as bad as everyone makes out. listening to Alan Smith, you could forgive yourself thinking we were getting mullered at half time which wasnt the case. The first half was like any we have had at OT. Not a great deal of possesion, quite a bit of defending to do, but apart from Nanis fluffed effort and the goal, that was the highlight of 45 minutes worth of attacking by United.

Second half we were better, our passing was sharper, and then Berbatov scores a brilliant but immensley lucky goal. Anyone who thinks he aimed for the far corner is having a laugh. It was a hit and hope and it went in, albeit nicely executed. Then we had a good spell, brought it back to 2-2 and had them on the rack. In this spell COle and Meireles really came to the fore, its just a shame he was subbed, because he was causing united lots of problems. We switched off at the end and conceeded. then we get Ferguson telling everyone it should have been ten nil. Well Mr, if it hadnt been for Berbatov you may have lost today, because there was no threat from Rooney, Giggs, Scholes. Only Nani looked a threat going forward. i cant even remember whether Reina had to make a save.

So dont be all doom and gloom. I think theres little signs that we may start to pick up a little who knows. maybe Lucas for Poulsen next time and Agger for Carra.

[silver 5 star]

Rafa was indeed one of the best when he kept his eye on the football. Unfortunately he started to worry too much about the owners that the team.

With good reason?

[KopThat]

With Maxi and Cole on the wings we really posed no threat from out wide.
Cole kept cutting inside, and at times both he and Maxi were in the middle.

They had Nani and Giggs providing width and crosses from the wings.

It wasn't until we took Maxi off and brought NGog that we really posed any attacking threat to worry their defence,
and it paid off with 2 goals.

Berbatov had an outstanding game, and got the better of Carra too many times.

We did control the game for long periods, but were mostly passing sideways or back, because Torres was being marked out of the game.

I thought Webb did alright, although O'shay should have gone for being the last defender.

It's not a disaster, Meireles had a good game, and Poulsen did what he was sent out to do, be the open man and retain possession.

If we win the next two, we will be back fighting for top 4.

[Mad Men]

What we missed was the team turning up in the first half. PERIOD. We were lost at sea YET AGAIN until we conceded the 2nd goal and then woke up, and subsequently went to sleep again once we got the second goal.

Agger was out of position and NOT marking Nani, allowing him all the time in the world to whip in the perfect cross with all the time in the world.

Surely after 80 minutes of the match, the liverpool bench would have realized how much of a threat Nani was and emphasized to Agger he sit on Nani and don't allow him space to turn, cross or to get into the box.

SURELY!?

Konchesky got his ass ripped apart from start to finish...and was at fault in part for that first goal. An "experinced" defender does NOT leave his post. This is schoolboy stuff.

And for christ sakes, this is NOT football. We are playing the kind of football LFC should NOT be playing...sitting back, with 8 players behind the ball, 2 up front all on their own......this is NOT the football I expect from the team or manager.

[macca888]

What thread is that, somone post me a link

www.theresafuckingsearchfunctionatthetopofyourscreenyoulazytwat.com

[amir87]

www.theresafuckingsearchfunctionatthetopofyourscreenyoulazytwat.com

Link doesn't work, mate. You sure it's .com?

[macca888]

Thats the worst part about the whole thing.

After the news about Hicks last night/this morning, I struggled to care about today.

Amen to that. I'd love to concentrate on the footy to prove that those two Yank twats haven't spoilt it for me, but at the back of my mind all I could think of was LBO, GSO, Blackstone.

Watching the match today was like watching an episode of Countdown for me. I'm good at the numbers, so just look forward to 4 - 4 - 2 - 4 - 5 - 1, but I'm stuck with the two fucking vowels and seven consonants of RBS BARCAP three times as much as I'd like to think about them.

[macca888]

Link doesn't work, mate. You sure it's .com?

dot fuck you

[Dr Cornwallis]

Great post.
It's worth remembering that Hodgson was brought into the club because 'someone' believed that he represented a better chance of winning things than Rafa.
And what you have to remember is that Hodgson should not, at any time, be comparing his results against last season's results because that isn't a true reflection on the manager he was brought in to replace.  Last season wasn't good enough, last season got Rafa Benitez sacked, a man who had won the European Cup for us, had got us to second in the league, had won the FA Cup, had qualified for the CL every season but one...that man got sacked because he took us to 7th place and we deemed it not good enough.
Hodgson cannot even afford to finish 7th and remain in the post, it would be a massive underachievement for this group of players to finish 7th, worthy of a sacking it is.
What scares me even more is hearing Kenny saying that it was time for Rafa to go, a man who I thought should know better.

Hodgson displayed some alarming traits today.
Firstly, no Agger and no Soto starting.  At Anfield, I can see the merit in not using Soto, but considering we were going to Old Trafford and were expecting a barrage in our box, we needed defenders who can defend the box both on the ground and aerially.  We were never going to be pushing up, so Soto's pace was never going to be a factor.  Agger is our best all-round defender, of that we have no doubt, it's something that not only Liverpool fans recognise but also every other football fan in the land recognises it usually when the topic of Liverpooll comes up.
I agree with no Lucas today, I thought it brought a top performance out of Poulson who did exactly what he was in the team to do, break things up.  Meireles deserves to play every game, and he etched a pretty decent image of a footballer into my brain today, he's physical and he's minded to create, but can also destroy.
I also agree with the starters up front, it's as good as we've got, minus Kuyt.
Once Berbatov's second goal went in, I also agreed with the switch in formation and bringing on N'Gog. 
And so we went to 2-2, as United sat back a little and were content to try and pick us off on the counters, we made some incisive breaks and we got what we deserved after some excellent attacking play for a while.
But then...we stopped.  And we changed formation.  It was as if Hodgson only ever wanted a point and was calling the dogs off.
From a tactical point of view, I think it confused the fuck out of his players.  They were raring to go and cement a famous victory to kick-start the season, but instead were reigned back in as we shifted people around to accomodate Agger and Jovanovic.  On the face of it, Jovanovic is a forward, so it would seem we were to be more attacking, but it just made no sense whatsoever to disrupt our flow, and that's exactly what happened.
Now I don't know if Hodgson was trying to be too clever and to flex some managerial muscle in front of his pal, it would seem so, but he ended up getting put firmly back in his place.  Footballer are a strange breed, all of his changes may have made perfect sense in his head, but the same confidence did not translate to changes made to a flowing team in the last ten minutes of a massive game.  Footballers like to play on instinct and as a collective they found a common wavelength at 2-0 down where all the fear went out of their game and they just flowed.
But...well, it's history now.
From a personnel point of view, I was pretty happy with what I saw for the most part, and if I were a United fan then I'd be a bit worried now.  They look a shadow of the team they once were, the defence is battered and in need of another £50m to top it up.  Hey, we've all got problems.

[amir87]

dot fuck you

Nah, don't shag old birds.

[Slave]

Spot on. Again.

[Marko B]

Agger was out of position and NOT marking Nani, allowing him all the time in the world to whip in the perfect cross with all the time in the world.

Surely after 80 minutes of the match, the liverpool bench would have realized how much of a threat Nani was and emphasized to Agger he sit on Nani and don't allow him space to turn, cross or to get into the box.

SURELY!?
Konchesky...

Surely you don't take the best centrebackman in the entire squad and play him off the bench against one of the most dangerous wingers in the league, let alone expect him to be expertly versed in the role of a fullback.

As for Konchesky, Emiliano Insua would have done better. Both with and without the ball. That's not a fact, I can't back it up with anything except the confidence of my own personal conviction on the matter.

[Mad Men]

Surely you don't take the best centrebackman in the entire squad and play him off the bench against one of the most dangerous wingers in the league, let alone expect him to be expertly versed in the role of a fullback.

As for Konchesky, Emiliano Insua would have done better. Both with and without the ball. That's not a fact, I can't back it up with anything except the confidence of my own personal conviction on the matter.

Simple common sense and defending. If the instructions given to a player coming on as a substitute were to stay on him and not to give him space to cross the ball and to man mark him.....surely.....its just simple common sense.

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

Rafa was indeed one of the best when he kept his eye on the football. Unfortunately he started to worry too much about the owners that the team.

Yeah, stupid Rafa ... He wanted to be involved in everything ...

[Dr Cornwallis]

Like rednich 85 im in the same boat.

However on todays game i need to say a few things. Firstly i dont think we played as bad as everyone makes out. listening to Alan Smith, you could forgive yourself thinking we were getting mullered at half time which wasnt the case. The first half was like any we have had at OT. Not a great deal of possesion, quite a bit of defending to do, but apart from Nanis fluffed effort and the goal, that was the highlight of 45 minutes worth of attacking by United.

Alan Smith was appallingly bad at offering comment on the game, I was wondering if I was watching the same game.  But then again he's a big fan of believing that possession = goals,  being a Gooner where that seems to be the currency.
As you say, they just weren't penetrating, and they were lucky to get the goal just before half-time.
People will bang on about Berbatov's hat-trick, but Gerrard almost got a hat-trick himself.  I expect that'll provoke claims of us being a one man team, or two man team, but that'd be rich coming from a team that just relied on a man scoring a hat-trick to win them the game against an opposition that are roundly expected to do fuck all this season.

[Chakan]

What we missed was the team turning up in the first half. PERIOD. We were lost at sea YET AGAIN until we conceded the 2nd goal and then woke up, and subsequently went to sleep again once we got the second goal.

Agger was out of position and NOT marking Nani, allowing him all the time in the world to whip in the perfect cross with all the time in the world.

Surely after 80 minutes of the match, the liverpool bench would have realized how much of a threat Nani was and emphasized to Agger he sit on Nani and don't allow him space to turn, cross or to get into the box.

SURELY!?

Konchesky got his ass ripped apart from start to finish...and was at fault in part for that first goal. An "experinced" defender does NOT leave his post. This is schoolboy stuff.

And for christ sakes, this is NOT football. We are playing the kind of football LFC should NOT be playing...sitting back, with 8 players behind the ball, 2 up front all on their own......this is NOT the football I expect from the team or manager.

Agger was out of position for what?

[1021]

It's worth remembering that Hodgson was brought into the club because 'someone' believed that he represented a better chance of winning things than Rafa.
And what you have to remember is that Hodgson should not, at any time, be comparing his results against last season's results because that isn't a true reflection on the manager he was brought in to replace.  Last season wasn't good enough, last season got Rafa Benitez sacked, a man who had won the European Cup for us, had got us to second in the league, had won the FA Cup, had qualified for the CL every season but one...that man got sacked because he took us to 7th place and we deemed it not good enough.
Hodgson cannot even afford to finish 7th and remain in the post, it would be a massive underachievement for this group of players to finish 7th, worthy of a sacking it is.
What scares me even more is hearing Kenny saying that it was time for Rafa to go, a man who I thought should know better.

They were the public reasons for his removal and Roy's appointment.
But the reality is Rafa went because he was a threat and Purslow had power to support.
Roy was brought in to oversee a slow steady decline.
He'll probably put up with it, because he is happy to be here.
As long as the owners stay the same, Roy is safe in his job and we aren't going to be anywhere near honours or the top 6.
Not Roy's fault it is an ownership situation.
And I do not understand Kenny's comments but I'm not doubting the man, so would rather not think about it.

As for Konchesky, Emiliano Insua would have done better. Both with and without the ball. That's not a fact, I can't back it up with anything except the confidence of my own personal conviction on the matter.

I though Konchesky did well today but I am totally with you on Insua.
Ridiculous what we have done there, Insua had phenomenal potential and was already a very good player for us.

[Marko B]

Simple common sense and defending. If the instructions given to a player coming on as a substitute were to stay on him and not to give him space to cross the ball and to man mark him.....surely.....its just simple common sense.

Were it a fullback I'd agree with you.

For a bigger, stronger, slower centreback used to being in the centre and playing front on to a forward being paired up against a far quicker, trickier player while being caught in a number of different minds as to whether show him the line, tackle, stay tight and risk getting skinned or give room to not let the player past I'm not willing to place any blame whatsoever on Agger - he should have never been out there in the first place.

Let's not forget he is our most inexperienced left back. People are willing to give young inexperienced defenders the scope to make mistakes and they are actually expected. Just because Agger is an experienced and very good player doesn't mean that automatically translates to being able to step into a foreign position, not to mention the old saying that it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks actually has a point.

[Lebeu]

...However on todays game i need to say a few things. Firstly i dont think we played as bad as everyone makes out...

...So dont be all doom and gloom. I think theres little signs that we may start to pick up a little who knows. maybe Lucas for Poulsen next time and Agger for Carra.

I partially agree. We were comfortable with the ball and bringing it forward. Team-wise we seemed to have some sort of a idea how to play...except near or inside the opposition box. We didn't really create any danger there apart from the two forward passes to Torres that resulted in the penalty and the freekick - and those were our only shots on goal! That thing gets worried.

[lehman_bros]

MOTD analysis tonight:

Berbatov was brilliant, Torres wasn't. Probable montage comparing the two. Poor set piece defending, look how many crosses Utd got in.

There won't really be any analysis of why those things happened, and I'll bet as well they won't criticise man-marking as a system, even though every set-piece we've conceded so far has shown very clearly the failings of that system.

It will mostly be a Berbatov wankfest though.

OOh, sorry, I almost forgot - there may be a bit of Hansen dissecting and showing concern about Utd's leaky defence thus far. Again, no real effort to explain why - but they will highlight the specific mistakes made (just not any systemic factors that may be behind those mistakes).

Don't think so, Torres is a brillant player, if you put him in Ars/Che team, he can score every fcuking week ! it's the midfield let us down, no winger, slow in attack, the passing is too slow and ordinary.

[nicholasanthony]

Like rednich 85 im in the same boat.

However on todays game i need to say a few things. Firstly i dont think we played as bad as everyone makes out. listening to Alan Smith, you could forgive yourself thinking we were getting mullered at half time which wasnt the case. The first half was like any we have had at OT. Not a great deal of possesion, quite a bit of defending to do, but apart from Nanis fluffed effort and the goal, that was the highlight of 45 minutes worth of attacking by United.

Second half we were better, our passing was sharper, and then Berbatov scores a brilliant but immensley lucky goal. Anyone who thinks he aimed for the far corner is having a laugh. It was a hit and hope and it went in, albeit nicely executed. Then we had a good spell, brought it back to 2-2 and had them on the rack. In this spell COle and Meireles really came to the fore, its just a shame he was subbed, because he was causing united lots of problems. We switched off at the end and conceeded. then we get Ferguson telling everyone it should have been ten nil. Well Mr, if it hadnt been for Berbatov you may have lost today, because there was no threat from Rooney, Giggs, Scholes. Only Nani looked a threat going forward. i cant even remember whether Reina had to make a save.

So dont be all doom and gloom. I think theres little signs that we may start to pick up a little who knows. maybe Lucas for Poulsen next time and Agger for Carra.

My thoughts too. There are some things I can take from the game that aren't, 'we shouldn't have got rid of Rafa'.

[harleydanger]

For me, we need to get back to simple football. Our "defensive wingers" line ups just aren't working. A team with 2 of kuyt, maxi & jona is just impotent. All the football ends up going through the middle. Get some attacking players on the pitch. We've got players like Babel, who despite his flaws has pace and a rocket shot. Players like Pach, who despite his youth looks like he has an idea other than a short first option pass. They may not hug the touchline, but they'll at least put some doubt in a defenders mind.

[Scarlet`]

I'm not criticizing Hodgson because he was brought in by this board - I'm only suggesting that he doesn't get the automatic support that I gave other managers because of it. That's not something I can explain, it's just my own personal feelings. I've personally been against many decisions that the board and the owners have taken. It would take something special for me to line up unquestioningly behind one of their decisions, because their track record is, frankly, shit.

Like I suggested, and you picked up on, Hodgson's football results on the pitch may take me from "uncomfortable observer of Hodgson's appointment" to "outright proponent of the Hodgson Way". So far, he's really given me little to suggest the change was for footballing reasons, that we got a superior manager in the footballing sense for the 11.5 million quid we spent to upgrade managers. But football's an afterthought.

Business wise, the direction is alarming. The squad is getting older in a hurry due to the age of his recruits and the age of the Rafa-era players that Hodgson has chosen to keep, and the money's running out. We'll have to replace Konchesky, Kuyt, Gerrard, Carra, Maxi, Cole, Poulsen, Jovanovic, Kyrgiakos, and Aurelio within the next 3 years. Even Torres, Meireles and Johnson are the wrong side of 25. Even if this flock of players starts bringing in results, we're gonna be fucked soon. We don't have any Patos or Messis on our team. The youngest player who has a claim to the word "starter" is Lucas, and he's the most picked on member of this team, and I don't expect him to be around for much longer. Insua is gone. Ayala is on loan. Mikel San Jose starts for Bilbao. Two kids were swapped for Konchesky. Nemeth is in Greece. The Riojas bought for 2015 are being popped without any thought to Best Drinking Date.

But getting back to Rafa - I disagree with your statement that "we" thought he should have gone for the jugular when he "settled" for something less. Rafa had the right approach - first become dead hard to beat, then worry about converting the draws into wins. Everyone bitched about the draws in 2008/2009 - well I'd give my left arsecheek for that many draws every season. Every season Baz. I would take that many draws every season. Let me say that again so that there is no confusion. I would take that many draws every league campaign.

You know why? Because Rafa had it right - with that many draws, and taking something like 14 points from top 4 teams (that's sick) we still had the most points that any second place team ever had. If we did that every year, we'd be within shouting distance of the title every season. Most of us just cannot wrap our limited intellect around the fact that it's not about one hand; it's about getting to the final table. Just because you create chances to see a flop, it doesn't mean you go all in every hand. It's a campaign. Fuck going for it every minute, instead be hard to beat and consistent. Take the points from home/away matchups against top opposition. That's it, djes. You don't need to go for broke against Stoke. Most times, Kuyt's opener counts, and Gerrard's shot goes in off the post. Meanwhile, you accumulate a war chest from Champions League revenue, and spend a percentage of it on a lot - a lot - of cheap, promising kids.

Instead, we did what Rafa always said not to do. We pushed harder than we should have in 2009/2010 when we didn't really have a chance at winning the hand, lost when it was obvious we weren't gonna win, took that as an indictment of Rafa and the whole fucking system, and then tilted madly. Victims of emotion. Pathetic really.

I can't speak for most people, Baz, but my discomfort with how we look now isn't about plucking random results and comparing them. It's about the entire tournament, indeed, the entire portfolio, not an isolated case by case comparison. Rafa made it so that you didn't give a shit which fucking ball emerged of Platini's jar. On any given day, Rafa's Rojas - a portfolio full of individual results that may look questionable in isolation - looked like something I'd put my money on. On any given day. You can't say that now. Would you fancy something out of an away trip to Inter Milan right now? Would you fuck. He'd fucking rip us to shreds, then look at his watch, the fat fuck.

Whether he bought Alonso for 10m or sold him for 30m, whether he bought Mascherano or sold Sissoko, whether Crouch fired blanks or became prolific for England, whether he swapped Josemi for Kromkamp (sp?) or Dudek for Reina, whether he played Gerrard on the right or off Torres, whether he "went for it" or "settled for a draw", whether he won in Istanbul or made 2 finals in 3 years, whether he stuck with Bellamy or bought Torres, on or off, whether his team conceded 4 to Arshavin or hit Chelsea for 4 at the Bridge - Rafa earned my respect, and my support because the longterm results were overwhelmingly positive. Random decisions and results mean nothing.

If Rafa were a fund, I'd invest in it. It looks like it would feature consistent performance, profits, and dividends - possibly boring, but those are usually stellart investments. I didn't disagree with any single individual thing Rafa did, especially not fucking subs or silly shit like "going for it" because I knew that over time, I was in the right hands. Day to day decisions may have indeed been random; but the long term results were on an upward trajectory. In his shittiest year, he came within minutes of a European final. That's long term results smoothed out for ya.

Unfortunately, some of us sound like folks who sold a longterm winner at the first sign of trouble, hopped onto a risky stock, and are now peering intently at the price over the last week, while alarm bells are ringing on the one year chart. "Oh it'll be alright, Rafa lost at Trafford too, it's not so bad," they say.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Love this post

[toshi]

- Rafa earned my respect, and my support because the longterm results were overwhelmingly positive. Random decisions and results mean nothing.

If Rafa were a fund, I'd invest in it. It looks like it would feature consistent performance, profits, and dividends - possibly boring, but those are usually stellart investments. I didn't disagree with any single individual thing Rafa did, especially not fucking subs or silly shit like "going for it" because I knew that over time, I was in the right hands. Day to day decisions may have indeed been random; but the long term results were on an upward trajectory. In his shittiest year, he came within minutes of a European final. That's long term results smoothed out for ya.

Unfortunately, some of us sound like folks who sold a longterm winner at the first sign of trouble, hopped onto a risky stock, and are now peering intently at the price over the last week, while alarm bells are ringing on the one year chart. "Oh it'll be alright, Rafa lost at Trafford too, it's not so bad," they say.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

that is exactly how i feel, i'm angry atm not just because we lose to mancs, but because looking at the bigger picture we do not have anything to compete with the big boys

[Adeemo]

It's going to be a long, long season and one that could turn sour for Hodgson very early if the next 5 games do not go well.

[Giono]

I'm not being facetious here, but do you draw a line between supporting the manager and supporting upper management at the club? Because the previous manager was hired by a different regime, one that we didn't have much in the way of outward hatred for. This one was appointed by folks who we have the utmost contempt for. Does that not play into your thinking, because it certainly plays into mine. Again, I'm not trying to be a dick here, I'm just trying to explain my own complex feelings. 

It would help if Hodgson gave me some pride. Today was the perfect opportunity. A United team that's shit at the back, that is shipping goals, that cannot hold a lead, that just sufferred a devastating injury to their best wide player, that has a so-called World Class forward that's firing blanks, and that just coughed up 2 goals in the 90th minute to an abject Everton side. Ferguson comes out pre-match and completely changes the subject, suggesting Rafa was shit, and our owners aren't that bad (it should be noted that United fans are fucking furious that Ginsoak doesn't embrace their Norwich scarves).

We on the other hand haven't started out very badly, sure it could be better, but we were on a high having won 4-1 midweek, and we could have taken advantage. Hodgson could have gotten into Ginsoak's head, talking about how they're blowing leads right left and center, or something along those lines. He could have gotten a result, which would have gone a long way towards cementing the support that you so crave. But he didn't. Instead the word Berbaflop will forever now be countered with hattrick against Liverpool.

He's not doing himself any favours. They were there for the taking today. And we couldn't take advantage.

Right On the Money.

The thing that struck me was that we were coming off of a 4-1 win yet we looked like a submissive dog at the dog park from the start. Shouldn't their poor results and our recent good result mean that we start with a spark and not a whimper?

I'm trying to give Roy a lot of slack but this display on the back of what we've seen this season is really testing it.

[Rafa_La]

Money helps, but that is to make it too easy on ourselves. Look at the subs today. I think we had a better bench than them. I don't think they had a better team out there (on paper), but their mentality is miles ahead of ours. We can still compete, but we're too busy finding an excuse or a way to surrender.

Agreed. Lads need mental motivation as much as honing their playing skills on the field.

[shizzledizzle]

Despite the defeat and the poor performance, I think we are coming stronger from this game. Torres was lively and unlike most of the
games that he doesn't get his way, he didn't lose his head and kept on trying for the ball and he earned us a penalty, so I think he will
be a bit more encouraged after today.

As for our midfield, I think it's safe to say that Meireles is a very good signing and he certainly shouldn't have been subbed, we will eb seeing much more from him. Poulsen was good on the tackles and did well in midfield today. Maybe that's one of the numerous positives from today we controlled the midfield both fletcher and scholes were out of the game for most of it.

The weakest part in my opinion is our defence. We have to face it, Carra is not the defender he once was he is slower, sometimes off the tackle and he isn't the best in terms of aerial ability (Berbatov proved it today). But Carra is our best defender so I will not even talk about Skrtel, honestly I dont think he is LFC material as for Glen Johnson who proved to be a poor piece of business.

Man U outplayed us through the wings especially on Konchesky, where that little cheating C**t, Nani passed him time and time again.

And if we are talking about our wingers then Maxi is horrible, he is not quick nor powerful he doesn't contribute too much, I think we should try and let Babel more runs in the team. Joe Cole will get better in my opinion as he showed with his pass to Torres today.,

[Alf]

I thought we were poor during the 1st half and only started playing once we were 2-0 down. But we showed fantastic character to get back into the game particularly from Steven Gerrard. It's a great shame we couldn't hang on and take something from the game.