Author Topic: The Labour Party (*)  (Read 882840 times)

Offline whiteboots

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5160 on: March 21, 2017, 11:16:52 am »
The electorate deserted us after the SDP formed and Thatchers Falklands killed us off.  Was it worth reforming the party then in the 'moderates' image?
On the contrary. With a winning policy platform we won three consecutive victories. The right policies, for the right time.

I agree that there is some regrouping to do. Who could have imagined JC and IDS voting together for Brexit, or  Ann Clwyd and Heseltine voting together against?

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5161 on: March 21, 2017, 11:18:21 am »
What's that got to do with the PLP getting asked to do their fucking job and attack the Tories? Seriously mate, if they aren't doing that  basic, what the fuck are they there for?

It sounds more like your ire is directed to the shadow cabinet, who are supposed to lead Labour's brief on their particular area. They have indeed been woeful post Brexit vote.

Unfortunately though it's filled with Corbyn's cronies, incompetents or unassuming sycophants. In Abbott's case, it's all three

Offline Joe Public

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5162 on: March 21, 2017, 11:20:09 am »
On the contrary. With a winning policy platform we won three consecutive victories. The right policies, for the right time.

I agree that there is some regrouping to do. Who could have imagined JC and IDS voting together for Brexit, or  Ann Clwyd and Heseltine voting together against?
Labour also needed Murdochs and The Scums support. Lets not forget that. Which is mainly why I made my original post in this thread.  :no

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5163 on: March 21, 2017, 11:25:43 am »
I see Len Mcluskeys challenger, "Moderate" Gerard Coyne has turned to The Scum to help him in his quest to rid Unite of "Red Len". Fucking scumbag! (Mind you, Tony Blair happily climbed  into bed with The Scum to get New Labour elected, the c*nt. And "Saving Labour" also used or maybe were used by The Scum in the last Labour leadership challenge, the shitbags.)The 'idiotic rule change'  was originally instigated by the Blairite 'Progress' group based on the French Socialist Party model and intended to forever marginalise the left in the Labour Party.  That it backfired so magnificently is delicious, in my opinion! Seems 'Democracy' is only acceptable to 'moderates' when it works in their favour.

It was an idiotic rule change full stop. The leadership election should be structured to elect a leader who's electable with a reasonable level of support from the three main strands - the PLP, the unions and the membership.

When Corbyn, Milne, Lansman (who elected him by the way) McDonnell and the rest have remade the party, who exactly is going to elect them? What's the breakdown of the electorate that are desperate for a Corbyn led Labour Party?

And if it's everybody else's fault that Corbyn's message isn't getting across (press, PLP etc), what is going to change before the next election? Corbyn and his team are evidently unable to change the nature of the debate in the country at large. What's their strategy? More tweets to the members? More rallies? More preaching to the converted?

Your man has been in charge for a while now and has done fuck all apart from collude with the Tories to take us out of Europe.
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Offline Joe Public

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5164 on: March 21, 2017, 11:37:56 am »
It was an idiotic rule change full stop. The leadership election should be structured to elect a leader who's electable with a reasonable level of support from the three main strands - the PLP, the unions and the membership.

When Corbyn, Milne, Lansman (who elected him by the way) McDonnell and the rest have remade the party, who exactly is going to elect them? What's the breakdown of the electorate that are desperate for a Corbyn led Labour Party?

And if it's everybody else's fault that Corbyn's message isn't getting across (press, PLP etc), what is going to change before the next election? Corbyn and his team are evidently unable to change the nature of the debate in the country at large. What's their strategy? More tweets to the members? More rallies? More preaching to the converted?

Your man has been in charge for a while now and has done fuck all apart from collude with the Tories to take us out of Europe.
Our man, mate.

Offline J_Kopite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5165 on: March 21, 2017, 11:38:49 am »
Our man, mate.

What about those of us who voted Labour on a pro-Europe platform in 2015 and feel betrayed by Corbyn jumping into bed with the Tories on a Hard Brexit?

Offline whiteboots

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5166 on: March 21, 2017, 11:38:50 am »
Labour also needed Murdochs and The Scums support. Lets not forget that. Which is mainly why I made my original post in this thread.  :no
Or did the tabloids spot a sea change and hop on the winning bus?

Blair's first victory was not primarily about a wave of Labour love, it was also about a hopeless, faction riven Tory party that had given up trying to lead in favour of internecine warfare.

A successful Labour campaign will need to depend upon a mix of defecting Tories aghast at the Brexit deal, and returning Labour Brexiteers sold a pup about greater control and prosperity. Tory schism is inevitable- who exploits that is another matter.

Offline Joe Public

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5167 on: March 21, 2017, 11:43:46 am »
What about those of us who voted Labour on a pro-Europe platform in 2015 and feel betrayed by Corbyn jumping into bed with the Tories on a Hard Brexit?
I'm not being facetious. Until he is replaced he is our man (Labour Party members, that is). Just as Kinnock, Blair,  Brown and Milliband were.                   

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5168 on: March 21, 2017, 11:47:11 am »
I'm not being facetious. Until he is replaced he is our man (Labour Party members, that is). Just as Kinnock, Blair,  Brown and Milliband were.                   

You seem to think this is some football club where you back your manager to end. I get no joy from Lavour so why should I feel the need to be loyal?

Offline J_Kopite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5169 on: March 21, 2017, 11:48:49 am »
I'm not being facetious. Until he is replaced he is our man (Labour Party members, that is). Just as Kinnock, Blair,  Brown and Milliband were.                   

I'm not a member of the party though, I'm someone who voted for them at the last two GE's.

Offline Joe Public

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5170 on: March 21, 2017, 11:48:55 am »
You seem to think this is some football club where you back your manager to end.
You have the wrong impression then. And I hope ffs that no bell end mentions Roy Hodgson to try make a shit point!

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5171 on: March 21, 2017, 11:52:54 am »
You have the wrong impression then. And I hope ffs that no bell end mentions Roy Hodgson to try make a shit point!

It would be a shit point. Even that gormless, vain egotist resigned when it was clear he was failing

Offline Joe Public

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5172 on: March 21, 2017, 12:01:34 pm »
It would be a shit point. Even that gormless, vain egotist resigned when it was clear he was failing
You know its shit, you know alluding to is is bellendry but yet you still go there?

Offline whiteboots

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5173 on: March 21, 2017, 12:07:36 pm »
And I hope ffs that no bell end mentions Roy Hodgson to try make a shit point!

Roy, like Corbyn, couldn't keep us in Europe.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5174 on: March 21, 2017, 12:35:03 pm »
Roy, like Corbyn, couldn't keep us in Europe.

Don't forget the famous victory away at Ramsgate Newington Parish Council.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5175 on: March 21, 2017, 12:43:21 pm »
And this is one of the problems - there was absolutely no vision from any of the other candidates during the original leadership election which is why they lost, there was none from Owen Owen during his failed leadership bid which is why he lost. The coup was one one of the most pitiful things I have ever had the misfortune of witnessing. There is nothing from the extreme right of the Party - no vision, no policies, no ideas, nothing apart from failed and rejected neoliberalism masquerading as moderation, modernisation and the supposed centre ground. There has been nothing from that side of the Party since the pro-privatisation of The Third Way and that was back in the 90's

What's the Corbyn plan? I know the utopian ideal - but what's the platform that would satisfy the left yet would make the party electable in enough seats across the country to get a majority in Parliament?

You can disparage the 'Third Way' but it at least it was based on a realistic appreciation of the country as it actually is rather than an idealised throwback to Britain's post-war industrial past. It recognised that there isn't a level playing field for the left and the right in this country. That saying that Labour will create 100% employment by borrowing for infrastructure projects is lobbing a soft ball as soft as a soft thing in Softland to the Tories. 

Is a Corbyn government going to work with 'the bosses' at all? Or is the solution to nationalise everything or place every business into the hands of its staff? Reinstate Clause 4? It's not clear to me from the policy documents but it seems clear from the rhetoric at his rallies that businesses both large and small, the self-employed and any entrepreneurs are all lumped together in order to get the cheers and adulation of his supporters. (This is just another example of the utter shit-headedness of Corbyn and his 'strategic team' - those clips of Corbyn railing at the employers will be rolled out to show Corbyn is 'the enemy of business & controlled by the unions' - a 1970s throwback - all to get a few cheers at a rally).

What's the Corbyn strategy for businesses that don't conform to traditional industrial or manufacturing types? Fast moving technological and digital businesses?  And what about  small manufacturing businesses - I've written before about the Mittelstand in Germany. 11,000 small to medium sized specialised and often family-owned businesses that support the 500 or so larger scale manufacturers but employ more people and have a larger share of German exports than the large conglomerates. That kind of manufacturing isn't mentioned in Corbyn/McDonnell thinking because they don't fit their out-dated and rigid thinking.

But anyway, I could go on and don't have the time. You're the one knocking the Third Way. You tell us how it's going to happen and where the votes will come from. Show us the demographic breakdown of the country and which policies will appeal to which voters.

And please note - the NHS is not the answer.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 12:45:36 pm by Alan_X »
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Offline TravisBickle

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5176 on: March 21, 2017, 01:12:46 pm »
I see Len Mcluskeys challenger, "Moderate" Gerard Coyne has turned to The Scum to help him in his quest to rid Unite of "Red Len". Fucking scumbag! (Mind you, Tony Blair happily climbed  into bed with The Scum to get New Labour elected, the c*nt. And "Saving Labour" also used or maybe were used by The Scum in the last Labour leadership challenge, the shitbags.)The 'idiotic rule change'  was originally instigated by the Blairite 'Progress' group based on the French Socialist Party model and intended to forever marginalise the left in the Labour Party.  That it backfired so magnificently is delicious, in my opinion! Seems 'Democracy' is only acceptable to 'moderates' when it works in their favour.

I'll always feel queasy seeing Labour politicians sucking up to Murdoch, especially when it's the S*n. But the question they're obliged to ask is whether or not the damage he can do is worth taking. In the mid 90s, when Blair decided to climb into bed with him, he was making a perfectly rational decision in the Labour Party's best interests.

 He can get to fuck for staying mates with him after leaving office though. As he can for most of his behaviour post-2007.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5177 on: March 21, 2017, 01:18:23 pm »
Our man, mate.

No mate - your man. I didn't vote for him as leader and he is clearly unfit to carry out the role. He should go as soon as possible. It's my party and I'll support the party for as long as I can but that useless waste of space is all down to the people who elected him and especially those continue to support him. He's your man, hes their man, he's not my man.

I'm happy to admit that I never thought he was competent because I did my due diligence on him in the lead up to the first leadership election and it was obvious that all the faults and problems that have become obvious to others since his election were there for anyone who wanted to look with a clear eye.

There's a podcast I listen to about the Trump presidency and they used a great phrase about Trump and his team. They call Trump 'the dog who caught the car'. You know how dogs chase a car and bark at it but if they ever catch up to it they have no idea what to do with it.

Corbyn's team are the same - the left have been insisting that they be given a go at the wheel for years. They've been chasing after the leadership of the party blaming everyone else for not being in charge and now they've got the prize they haven't a clue what they're doing. If the left had a go, the country would come flocking to the cause.
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Offline Circa1892

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5178 on: March 21, 2017, 01:30:13 pm »
I wonder if Corbyn would congratulate Galloway for beating a Labour candidate again as he has in the past if Galloway was to win in Manchester...

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5179 on: March 21, 2017, 01:36:02 pm »
Labour also needed Murdochs and The Scums support. Lets not forget that. Which is mainly why I made my original post in this thread.  :no
It's the newspaper with the highest readership in the country. That's why when cynical politicians want to do their "Man of the People" schtick they tuck one under their arm.

Spoiler
[close]

Obviously, as Liverpool supporters, we look at it differently.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5180 on: March 21, 2017, 02:29:56 pm »
And there we have it - like I said, no vision, no policies, no ideas, nothing. And that is why New Labour lost in 2010 and 2015 and have lost two subsequent leadership contests. When asked about an alternative to Corbyn, the hard right have nothing at all. And that is why they are on the outside looking in. They spent years saying that their plan was that they weren't Tories and now the plan is that they aren't Corbyn. Where is the inspiration? Where are the ideas? Where is the vision?

That's what you take from my post? Corbyn is in charge and is in charge for the foreseeable future. Who gives a shit what the 'hard right' (whoever they are) might or might not do. What is Corbyn's plan for the next general election? You know, Corbyn, the leader of the Labour Party.
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Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5181 on: March 21, 2017, 02:31:33 pm »
That's what you take from my post? Corbyn is in charge and is in charge for the foreseeable future. Who gives a shit what the 'hard right' (whoever they are) might or might not do. What is Corbyn's plan for the next general election? You know, Corbyn, the leader of the Labour Party.

Sorry Alan, he's gone. Do you ever get déjŕ vu? Do you ever get déjŕ vu?


Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5182 on: March 21, 2017, 02:36:20 pm »
Sorry Alan, he's gone. Do you ever get déjŕ vu? Do you ever get déjŕ vu?



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Offline Mag Hull

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5183 on: March 21, 2017, 02:49:12 pm »
Mane Mane Mane, it's a thick man's world...

Hence the Kind Hearts & Coronets crack before - variety of guises -same person, who mysteriously goes the way of Keyser Sozer at around 2pm
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Offline Bunter

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5184 on: March 21, 2017, 02:50:03 pm »
On someone mentioning a new centre-left party.. It does seem a shame we can't be more like the Dutch or Germans politically and have a dozen or more 'legitimate' parties to vote for or to choose from, instead constantly stuck in the same Tories/Labour cycle with most not brave enough to vote for an alternative and rather stick with the status quo.

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5185 on: March 21, 2017, 03:25:25 pm »
On someone mentioning a new centre-left party.. It does seem a shame we can't be more like the Dutch or Germans politically and have a dozen or more 'legitimate' parties to vote for or to choose from, instead constantly stuck in the same Tories/Labour cycle with most not brave enough to vote for an alternative and rather stick with the status quo.

Which is precisely why it's all the more vital Corbyn resigns soon. The only hope of electoral reform is under a Labour Government.

If Labour got in and changed to a proportional representation, he and McDonnell could be a bit more honest about the party they support then. Though given the unpopularity of the far left parties in the UK, they would likely prefer to continue using the funding Labour provides so might cling on.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5186 on: March 21, 2017, 04:06:25 pm »
Which is precisely why it's all the more vital Corbyn resigns soon. The only hope of electoral reform is under a Labour Government.

If Labour got in and changed to a proportional representation, he and McDonnell could be a bit more honest about the party they support then. Though given the unpopularity of the far left parties in the UK, they would likely prefer to continue using the funding Labour provides so might cling on.

Yeah you need to get the Labour Party to support that first..... they had plenty of opportunity to do it in the past and didn't bother as it worked in their favour.

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5187 on: March 21, 2017, 04:25:51 pm »
Yeah you need to get the Labour Party to support that first..... they had plenty of opportunity to do it in the past and didn't bother as it worked in their favour.
It was a hypothetical point, responding to Bunter's desire for more parties to choose from. Wasn't making a Labour manifesto pledge :)

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5188 on: March 21, 2017, 07:02:10 pm »
The argument against PR was that it would give nutjob parties like the BNP and UKIP representation in Parliament.  ::)

Neither main party wants PR, or even AV, because it would force them to compromise with other parties to get things done, and - you know - be more representative of the country as a whole, rather than pursuing their own private mandate.
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Offline Anfield Ed

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5189 on: March 21, 2017, 07:47:40 pm »
PR would be a total disaster.

Offline Elmo!

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5190 on: March 21, 2017, 08:34:52 pm »
PR would be a total disaster.

Yes just like it's been disaster all over Europe....  ::)

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5191 on: March 21, 2017, 08:48:06 pm »
Oh dear

3 of the Gorton candidates appear to have attended a Khomeinist rally in Manchester.


Pro Iranian theocracy! Yay!
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5192 on: March 21, 2017, 09:10:10 pm »
Yes just like it's been disaster all over Europe....  ::)

Yep, who would of thought a more progressive and fair voting system could ever be a success  ;)

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5193 on: March 21, 2017, 09:11:06 pm »
PR would be a total disaster.

Says the person who voted for Brexit  ::)

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5194 on: March 21, 2017, 09:45:21 pm »
Sounds like membership numbers while still extremely high, are falling.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/21/labour-membership-expected-to-fall-below-half-a-million

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5195 on: March 21, 2017, 09:46:57 pm »
Sounds like membership numbers while still extremely high, are falling.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/21/labour-membership-expected-to-fall-below-half-a-million
You can't read much into that...

Seasonal variation?
Old time members giving up?
New members not renewing?

Far to early to say if there is a trend and if there were to be, what it was..
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Offline filopastry

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5196 on: March 21, 2017, 09:49:18 pm »
You can't read much into that...

Seasonal variation?
Old time members giving up?
New members not renewing?

Far to early to say if there is a trend and if there were to be, what it was..


I don't think you can read too much into who is leaving but there does appear to be a real downwards trend.

The only reason I'm still a member is living in hope of another leadership election at some stage in the near future.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5197 on: March 21, 2017, 09:54:19 pm »
Not sure if anyone had reposted the approval rating comparison, sorry if I'm repeating earlier posts.

Oppo leader ratings, 18 mths (MORI):
Foot - 49
Kinnock -16
Smith 0
Blair +22
Hague -27
IDS -26
Howard -20
Cameron -5
Ed M -18
Corbyn -41

PM approval ratings after 8 mths (MORI):
Thatcher: -11
Major: +20
Blair: +31
Brown: -24
Cameron: -14
May: +13

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5198 on: March 21, 2017, 10:17:29 pm »
-41 my my

Sill, that's just down to right wing biased main stream media.  People are too stupid to form their own opinions.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5199 on: March 21, 2017, 11:09:23 pm »
Says the person who voted for Brexit  ::)

PR reduces accountability to voters, as an ousted party of government can retain office by finding new coalition partners after an election.

PR will provide a route for UKIP to force their way into the political mainstream - under a FPTP electoral system this would be unlikely to happen. As in 2015 they had 4 million votes but one seat. Small parties get a disproportionately large amount of power. Large parties may be forced to form coalitions with much smaller parties, giving a party that has the support of only a small percentage of the votes the power to veto any proposal that comes from the larger parties.

Under FPTP the government is more inclined to tackle important local issues as well.

So no thanks to AV or PR I'll stick with FPTP.