Author Topic: Why we’ve been so mediocre and occasionally shit - but are deffo on the way back  (Read 8695 times)

Offline BobOnATank

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This point is solidified in my mind by Newcastle's performance this season.  Go through their squad and it's very average, with journeymen types and bench players who long struggled to get games.  Eddie Howe certainly deserves some credit, but what stands out is how much energy and intensity they play with.  They remind me of us at our best but with a lot less quality on the park.  So not surprise that they are able to produce those energy levels when they've played the 2nd fewest games since the start of last season.

Newcastle is full of player busting their balls for money beyond their talent. Aside from them, Arse, manu the rest of the prem league this year is pretty shit, its like another Leicester year. Bang average teams because the bigger teams took their eye of the ball, Chelsea, us, city etc. (spurs are always half way shite at best)

Offline Johnny Aldridge

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We’re not shite, we’re at rock bottom, age, Injuries, Behind the scenes sales talks, going so close so many times in the league and CL, to be beaten on the last day a few times, it mentally will affect you, you start to lose confidence and it spirals, 60 odd games last season and similar for the previous few, it all makes sense we are the way we are. The team is burned out and beaten and lacking in confidence and fight, it’s a spiral from the last few years. They need to get their wind again, it’s like being punch drunk but the bell doesn’t ring. It’s been non stop for this squad. A Bellingham wouldn’t solve every problem, but he’s fresh legs on the battlefield and would bring a calm. TAA, VVD, Salah… players like that don’t become shite over night. You can’t turn off class and skill, but you can burn it out. IF we got lucky and got a player like Bellingham and one other general in MF that team would look immediately better.

What this team has achieved over the last 5 years against the limitless cash City & Utd threw around is amazing. Our points total a few seasons were enough to win a title. 1 point in it on occasions. Coming close in CL finals….The heartbreak and confidence knocks are normal, but they need fresh blood to the battle, some has come and some more is needed, it’s a rebuild and it’s normal. Liverpool didn’t win the league every year back in the 70s & 80s either. There were rebuild years then too, same with Utd, they had rebuild years. It happens all teams across a lot of sports. The group moves on and you never lose them one at a time they all age together, so you lose 3 guys instead of 1.

It’s shite to watch it, but that’s what it is sometimes supporting a team or playing in one. Pleasure and pain. The highs are high and the lows are shite, but it’s the same club.
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Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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One thing that I don't often see mentioned is the psychological aspect of us winning the league under lockdown. For a large part of our squad that was supposed to be the emotional pinnacle of their career - they were going to be the ones that finally won us the league after 30 years. Imagine the atmosphere in the crowd in that run-in to the league victory - the outpouring of joy at full time when it was finally over the line - the street parade not long after. Instead of that they won the league in front of empty stadiums and their street parade was in the aftermath of losing the Champions League final.

As a supporter I felt cheated of so much of what us winning the league was supposed to be. I imagine many of the players felt similar.

Offline kcbworth

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One thing that does surprise me is the fact that so little has been made in nearly all the posts about the absence this season of the player who effectively turned our season around when he was signed last January. For me, his absence has left a massive hole in our overall game play in so many ways and I’m sure his return when fully fit will see a very noticeable step up in our play.

We didn't play that well this season even when he was here, but we were a lot better than we have been since (+ loss of Jota)

I agree that if Jota and Diaz had been available all season, our season would not have been anywhere near as bad (but I still doubt it would be a good season against our recent high standards)

Online JackWard33

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We didn't play that well this season even when he was here, but we were a lot better than we have been since (+ loss of Jota)

I agree that if Jota and Diaz had been available all season, our season would not have been anywhere near as bad (but I still doubt it would be a good season against our recent high standards)

Maybe it would’ve been a touch better but our attacking output has been excellent (until recently when we’ve basically stopped attacking to try and plug the leaks) … the issue with the team has been defensive and - as the initial article points out - it’s not a small issue, it’s chronic
We could’ve had Mbappe and Haaland up front and we’d still have been losing games

Offline BCCC

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It certainly is and those 50% additional energy sapping high pressure games [92 versus 60] identified in the piece really serve to pinpoint the strong likelihood for much of the striking contrast this season between the effervescent performances of Arsenal/Newcastle and the comparative lethargy of our own performances.

When you throw in our failure to replenish our engine room plus all the injuries - most crucially the seemingly crazy one to our by far currently brightest and most effervescent star - plus the massive psychological damage inflicted by losing the league to City due to VAR abominations and the Champions League to Madrid because of shite finishing and an inspired Courtois, it’s a wonder we’ve managed to summon enough oomph to win a single fucking game since August.

 :)

It was inevitable and I said so on the way back from Paris. Add injuries, aging squad and key player transfer I just totally expected a fallow season. I didn't expect us to struggle as much and then be compounded with a return to form of several other clubs.

I'd settle for CL qualification and a decent cup run and use the money I save to pay the leccy bill.
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Offline redk84

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My main annoyance comes from the fact i think Klopp deserves more major medals than 1 PL and 1 CL (even though that is excellent all oil considered)

And he won't have the team to do it if this contract is his last and it needs so much rebuilding.

If he were to come out tomorrow and sign another 2/3 year extension I would give little to no fuck about the need for all these players as in my mind the team is safe...and he will get the chance to win PL/CL again


That's not to say things couldn't look very different next season with 1 or 2 additions and players like Jota and Diaz being fit for most of the season again....but just not sure yet.
For this season I am convinced we can't wait for them to be back as we want to have more attackers on the field at the same time and will change our emphasis towards that as soon as possible
« Last Edit: January 27, 2023, 10:25:30 am by redk84 »
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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I think the recent league form and clearly the United performance [and to be fair even the Madrid game up until Alli’s howler] really does serve to support what so many in this thread were saying all along about our performances for so much of the season.

Namely the despair and physical/mental toll of what we went through and, at the death, effectively being “cheated” out of those two major honours by disgraceful VAR abominations going against us and for City and finally  that big lanky twat in goal for Madrid fucked us up physically, mentally and emotionally and it’s taken us all this time for our lads individually and collectively to properly recover.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Also going to stick this post  in here too. Not out of any personal pride but because maybe it shows that there is still something to be learnt by younger fans so ready to despair of any way out of the gloom from boring old farts like me who’ve been round the block a few dozen times, an experience which occasionally provides a perspective founded on optimism.

Reading threads like this - namely the “what are we transitioning to” thread and with the greatest of respect to Donkey Wan’s  fine analysis and many of the other posters with similar considered analyses of our current malaise and future predicted problems and shortcomings - it makes me so grateful that for the past 60 years or so, going right back to our pre-Shankly days of Bert Slater, Jimmy Harrower, Dick White, Kevin Lewis, Alan A’Court et alia I have always been a cockeyed optimist where the Reds are concerned.

It makes supporting our incredible club so much fucking easier through any of the many disappointments and barren spells we encounter. Like this one. Some of you despondent fuckers should try it once in a while instead of wallowing in expertise and statistics which reek of doom. It really works.

Through my red tinted specs I see no reason why we will not turn this season around and make the top four and as for next season - well with a clutch of top signings in the right areas I see the world as our oyster.

As ever I shall be bellowing out my cockeyed optimism at the game on Mondee night.

 :)


Offline Knight

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I'm far from convinced that we've 'recovered' or that our cataclysmic form was mostly because we were disappointed that we didn't win the league or CL, I credit our players with more professionalism and drive than that. I suspect it's more we're learning to manage what we now are. A little bit like in 20/21 where we eventually worked out how to manage not having any CBs. Not that much changed in terms of available personnel between the awful run of home defeats and our recovery to finish 3rd. But we managed to adjust.


Offline MD1990

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I'm far from convinced that we've 'recovered' or that our cataclysmic form was mostly because we were disappointed that we didn't win the league or CL, I credit our players with more professionalism and drive than that. I suspect it's more we're learning to manage what we now are. A little bit like in 20/21 where we eventually worked out how to manage not having any CBs. Not that much changed in terms of available personnel between the awful run of home defeats and our recovery to finish 3rd. But we managed to adjust.
We set a PL record for counter pressures against Wolves.
Be interesting to see that statistics but we are running more.
With Gakpo now settled his defensive work has been very good also dropping into midfield

Online FlashGordon

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We set a PL record for counter pressures against Wolves.
Be interesting to see that statistics but we are running more.
With Gakpo now settled his defensive work has been very good also dropping into midfield

That was just Elliott no?
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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I'm far from convinced that we've 'recovered' or that our cataclysmic form was mostly because we were disappointed that we didn't win the league or CL, I credit our players with more professionalism and drive than that. I suspect it's more we're learning to manage what we now are. A little bit like in 20/21 where we eventually worked out how to manage not having any CBs. Not that much changed in terms of available personnel between the awful run of home defeats and our recovery to finish 3rd. But we managed to adjust.



I do see what you're saying and why you say it but I've definitely seen signs in these recent games of the "recovery" as you put it. Obviously we are all aware that there have been several false dawns, not least the City game. What makes me so sure right now that it is the real deal and not simply my red tinted cockeyed optimism is the fact that it's as clear as day the players are once again enjoying their football - such an important ingredient of any successful team. Whether the various statistics back up what I seem to be seeing I've no idea but it would surprise me if they didn't, albeit clearly the United massacre will likely skew statistics somewhat.

In contrast, throughout the season it's largely looked as if the games were a chore for the players individually and collectively. Unsurprisingly when that is the case confidence is low, concentration and focus suffer and the cohesion any team with ambition at this level needs is missing.

But of late - and most especially against United, Everton and Wolves and the opening half against Madrid  - the players looked as if they were relishing playing again with a spring in their step. Confidence seemed to return and those other crucial aspects I just mentioned were clearly back. Whereas for a while Thiago, Bajcetic and Mo seemed to be the only ones reaching the sort of level we crave, it's quickly transpired that Hendo, Fab, Robbo, Trent, Virgil etc have also got back in the saddles they'd seemed to have fallen off. When you throw in the boost of the injury returns and the seeming emergence of a real player in GakpoI think it's hard to see this as anything other than a dramatic rediscovering of what made the team so successful and so fucking amazing over this past 4/5 years.

We shall, of course, have a further insight into whether this is indeed the real McCoy or just another false dawn come Saturday at Bournemouth. My money is firmly on the former.

Now as to whether my own view as to why we've fallen so far from grace is true or not we shall never know for sure I guess. I take what you say about these guys being highly trained, motivated and rewarded professionals who should cope with any circumstances they encounter.

To this I'd simply reiterate what I've been saying for sometime which is that no matter how professional they may be they are still human. As such, what happened to them at the season's end was so uniquely crushing. If the likes of us felt it so badly then just imagine the damage it inflicted upon them , no matter how they might feel it is perhaps not the done thing to air it.

When they have come so close to footballing immortality - and let's not forget that such an achievement would have been totally unique - only to be denied by such wretched ill fortune. On the one hand by three of the - shall we say to avoid being too controversial - worst VAR decisions I've ever seen all of which flopped in in City's favour gifting them four points and depriving us of two points whilst on the other hand being denied in a final by a goalkeeping freak show, then it comes as no surprise to me that such atrocious ill fortune may well have been responsible for the parcity and poverty of performance we have so regularly been witnessing throught the season. To the extent that so many on this board had basically written off certain players and the team as a whole.

 As I say only time will tell but for now let's pray I'm right and we now go on to win the league and Champions League double as every other team falls to pieces in our midst.

  ;D   
« Last Edit: March 9, 2023, 04:14:41 pm by Timbo's Goals »

Offline KillieRed

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A bit better than mediocre at the moment. Onwards and Upwards!
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Offline Black Bull Nova

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Anyway, back to mediocre.


Think positive, even if we only qualify for the Europa league, no manager has ever won everything.


Klopp has




CL
PL
FAC
LC
World Club
Super Cup
Charity Shield




With us




Missing Europa League (and Europa conference)
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Offline Garnier

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Anyway, back to mediocre.


Think positive, even if we only qualify for the Europa league, no manager has ever won everything.
(...)

If LFC do end up qualifying for Europa League then we better give it a right go. European nights are part of this club's soul and i wish nothing more than to somehow avenge that Sevilla defeat all those years ago.

Only 45 minutes to hold on, man.

I wonder how things turn out if we won it and qualified for the Champions League a season earlier, how that butterfly effect would change things up.
The change is cast

Offline killer-heels

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If LFC do end up qualifying for Europa League then we better give it a right go. European nights are part of this club's soul and i wish nothing more than to somehow avenge that Sevilla defeat all those years ago.

Only 45 minutes to hold on, man.

I wonder how things turn out if we won it and qualified for the Champions League a season earlier, how that butterfly effect would change things up.

Im not sure it makes much of a difference.

The greatest what if moment really is if we win the league in 13/14.

Offline Statto Red

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Im not sure it makes much of a difference.

The greatest what if moment really is if we win the league in 13/14.

We've not won the Europa League in this format, although we did reach a final in 2016, so might as well go for it if we qualify for it, plus the EL winner gets seeded in the CL group phase draw.
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Offline Garnier

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Im not sure it makes much of a difference.

The greatest what if moment really is if we win the league in 13/14.

I agree on that, very much so.

LFC win the league > Rodgers finds himself with enough credit to afford a poor season or two > LFC miss out on Klopp

Gerrard's slip put us on the best timeline possible crazily enough.
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Offline spider-neil

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Im not sure it makes much of a difference.

The greatest what if moment really is if we win the league in 13/14.

I absolutely believe by not winning the league it allowed us to get Klopp. I don’t think FSG would have sacked a title winning manager after one poor season.

Offline killer-heels

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I absolutely believe by not winning the league it allowed us to get Klopp. I don’t think FSG would have sacked a title winning manager after one poor season.

Yep. Although the caveat I would put on that was that Klopp was on a sabbatical the season we got him and for all you believe, we were one of the few if any clubs that he broke that for, so he may have been still available near the latter part of 15/16.

Also important to note that we were what, 1/4 through the 15/16 season and hadn’t started well. Therefore whilst we wouldn’t have sacked Rodgers after one bad season and an average start, by the time we get to around Feb/March we could have been on for two bad seasons and then he would definitely be sacked.

Offline Knight

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Do we sell Suarez if we win the league? It’s possible we hold onto him for one more season. Maybe he’s less worked up and bitegate doesn’t happen too.

Offline killer-heels

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Do we sell Suarez if we win the league? It’s possible we hold onto him for one more season. Maybe he’s less worked up and bitegate doesn’t happen too.

Yep we do sell him. Its clear he wanted to go to Barcelona so i very much doubt we keep him for a season even if we win the league.

Offline ToneLa

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Do we sell Suarez if we win the league? It’s possible we hold onto him for one more season. Maybe he’s less worked up and bitegate doesn’t happen too.

He'd still want us as his stepping stone to Barcelona foolish as that was

It would make him a more attractive proposition

I lap the guy up but don't doubt he's fairly mercenary in terms of getting what he wants

Offline Penfold78

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One thing that I don't often see mentioned is the psychological aspect of us winning the league under lockdown. For a large part of our squad that was supposed to be the emotional pinnacle of their career - they were going to be the ones that finally won us the league after 30 years. Imagine the atmosphere in the crowd in that run-in to the league victory - the outpouring of joy at full time when it was finally over the line - the street parade not long after. Instead of that they won the league in front of empty stadiums and their street parade was in the aftermath of losing the Champions League final.

As a supporter I felt cheated of so much of what us winning the league was supposed to be. I imagine many of the players felt similar.

Absolutely. This is spot on.

Offline oldrepublicknight

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Newcastle is full of player busting their balls for money beyond their talent. Aside from them, Arse, manu the rest of the prem league this year is pretty shit, its like another Leicester year. Bang average teams because the bigger teams took their eye of the ball, Chelsea, us, city etc. (spurs are always half way shite at best)
This is a good reason why this club finds itself in the mess it is in.

Chelsea already had issues last year when it came to attack and defense. They were playing horrible football, scoring fewer goals and conceding more.

City are pretty much on the level they have been playing at for some time. Their defense has been on the decline this season, but outside that, they still have a good attack.

Manchester United still suffer an identity crisis. They have a manager that would love to have a possession based attack, and a midfield that is ill suited to that.

We have an issue acknowledging the fact that the midfield has not been good enough at a technical level. It does not create and there are no goals from it. It has largely been a mimicry of Klopp midfield's, they work hard, they press well and off the counter press, they create a lot of opportunities for others.

The team is not there in terms of energy, and the manager does not look like he has a clue on how to fix it outside getting it absolutely right in the market this coming summer and beyond because they have made a mistake in letting this team age together. Outside that, there must be a plan that ensures that the rest the midfield can contribute to the attack.

Offline Armchair expert

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I’m a glass half full kind of guy so here’s hoping…..


Offline Songs to Sing

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The worrying thing is the signings. How are Nunez and gakpo going to fit in? They don’t press from front and that’s what makes the rest work. Then they have other problems on top of that. How is Nunez going to play ahead of Diaz on left? If he’s centre then the team will have to change a lot because he can’t link play so style hasn’t to change. These are the worrying things. Otherwise klopp can turn it around but when you start making mistakes in signings and they don’t contribute to a cohesive plan is when it’s over. When we got back to the top it’s because we smashed every big signing, they all fitted into style of play perfectly. Now? Worrying to say the least
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Offline ToneLa

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Not sure why there's so much fuss there's only a few possibilities

- this period will stagnate further and we will get worse... which would be vastly unpleasant but would not change my level of support a jot (might even be easier to get tix)
- we continue at the same level, which is still disappointing, I find it unlikely personally for fairly obvious Klopp-shaped reasons but yeah I don't intend to pack it in if we are coming 8th every season for years to come
- all bad times by definition are temporary and we have the sweetness of a glorious comeback and the attendant satisfaction to look forward to

I know which eventuality my money's on.

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Im not sure it makes much of a difference.

The greatest what if moment really is if we win the league in 13/14.

I think Suarez still leaves, Gerrard still ages out and leaves and Sterling still goes. Brendan is a very good coach as his stints at Celtic and Leicester prove but I just don't believe he would have achieved those heights with us again.

Had we triumphed in 13/14 would FSG had the balls to sack Rodgers when they did? Ultimately I think so because I believe they wanted Klopp for a long time and were waiting for him to become available. For all the criticism they get hiring Klopp is one the smartest managerial hire's in PL history perhaps on a par with Arsenal hiring Wenger.   
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Offline Sir Capon of Debaser

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Offline skipper757

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We were only 2 points behind with 10 games to go that year, since we were top at Christmas.

I haven't looked at the table recently and thought we aren't that far off this year, but we're 13 points back now (United and Newcastle having played 1 game more).  Our good run before the Bournemouth defeat signaled some hope but 1 point from Bournemouth, City, and Chelsea wasn't ideal to say the least.  I honestly thought United were in shit form, but they're still far ahead.
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Offline Zlen

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Bournemouth game was the end of our hopes for top four. It’s over now. Just cruise to the end and get rid of as many players as possible during the summer.

Offline newterp

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Bournemouth game was the end of our hopes for top four. It’s over now. Just cruise to the end and get rid of as many players as possible during the summer.

Bournemouth loss + Newcastle finding form again + too many teams to leap frog.