Author Topic: Labour Thread  (Read 176063 times)

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #80 on: October 18, 2022, 08:25:32 pm »
Not really, this wasn't a interview when he might have put things wrong unintentionally, this was a speech in a video he posted on the internet and he could have made the point you make but he chose not too, the intention was clear,  lump the Labour party in with Thatchers government by saying that governments over the last 40yrs ignored you.

Im not suggesting he got it wrong. Im saying he wants to deliberately make a clear distinction between the Labour party under him and the one under Blair, just as KS wants to make a distinction  between the current and previous leader.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #81 on: October 18, 2022, 08:29:13 pm »
Yep.

Isn't it sad.

It would be great to be able to read some positive stuff on how things will improve to maybe lighten the mood and give some optimism but no..... this is the labour thread 🤷

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #82 on: October 18, 2022, 08:30:50 pm »
It would be great to be able to read some positive stuff on how things will improve to maybe lighten the mood and give some optimism but no..... this is the labour thread 🤷

I thought we had a good thing going with just the Tory thread where we could dip in and out of discussing the Labour party and other parties but no one took it that far because they knew it was off topic.

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #83 on: October 18, 2022, 08:33:28 pm »
It would be great to be able to read some positive stuff on how things will improve to maybe lighten the mood and give some optimism but no..... this is the labour thread 🤷
Courtesy of Old Fordie
Here's Yvette Cooper making a twat of Cruella Braverman

Enjoy  :-*

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Here’s what I said back 👇
https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1582429961813577728
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #84 on: October 18, 2022, 08:35:01 pm »
Im not suggesting he got it wrong. Im saying he wants to deliberately make a clear distinction between the Labour party under him and the one under Blair, just as KS wants to make a distinction  between the current and previous leader.
This is not a isolated incident, 40yrs of Thatcherism was another one, they are not just trying to seperate themselves from the last Labour government, they are trying to lump them in with the Torys with a little proviso if challenged, yeah they did a bit of good.
  KS does make the distinction clear, he says Under new management.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #85 on: October 18, 2022, 08:35:28 pm »
It would be great to be able to read some positive stuff on how things will improve to maybe lighten the mood and give some optimism but no..... this is the labour thread 🤷

Yep.

Lots of real positive stuff could happen under the next (likely Labour) government.  Instead, we have to read a load of shit about the past..

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #86 on: October 18, 2022, 08:45:10 pm »
This is not a isolated incident, 40yrs of Thatcherism was another one, they are not just trying to seperate themselves from the last Labour government, they are trying to lump them in with the Torys with a little proviso if challenged, yeah they did a bit of good.
  KS does make the distinction clear, he says Under new management.

Corbyn: Were not the neo liberal, new labour, we're different vote for us
Starmer:  Were not anti NATO looneys, we're different vote for us

Same same but different
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #87 on: October 18, 2022, 08:54:23 pm »
Corbyn: Were not the neo liberal, new labour, we're different vote for us
Starmer:  Were not anti NATO looneys, we're different vote for us

Same same but different
When has Starmer ever said the last Labour government ignored you or the last Labour government wern't much better than the Torys.
A previous poster has just said arguing over the same shit in the past again.
Well that same old shit is being repeated now so it's not in the past so it has to be answered otherwise Labour go into the next election with people thinking they are just the same as the Torys.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #88 on: October 18, 2022, 08:59:47 pm »
When has Starmer ever said the last Labour government ignored you or the last Labour government wern't much better than the Torys.
A previous poster has just said arguing over the same shit in the past again.
Well that same old shit is being repeated now so it's not in the past so it has to be answered otherwise Labour go into the next election with people thinking they are just the same as the Torys.

KS hasnt said that and Ive never suggested he has.  Im saying the current and previous leaders have both put a distinction down between what they represent compared to previous incumbents.   
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #89 on: October 18, 2022, 09:35:01 pm »
Life generally gets better under Labour Governments and generally gets worse under Tory ones. Is there any more to it than that when you get to the bottom of things?

Of course Labour never does everything that its purist supporters want it to do and it never satisfies those who take an ideological view of politics and an incurious view of British society and how it works. Indeed one way of looking at the history of Labour in power is to see it as a permanent history of treachery. This isn't new and certainly isn't confined to the Blair years. It was said of MacDonald's governments, of Attlee's governments and of Wilson's governments. All these Labour administrations were declared to be utter failures. I refer RAWKites to Ralph Miliband's well-written book 'Parliamentary Socialism' for some of the detail. He propounds the theory very elegantly.

Over time of course all but the most ideological come to see that Labour governments do actually have a substantial record of achievement. Blair's government produced the Minimum wage and restored the fabric of our schools and health service. Wilson's government produced the Equal Pay act, legalised homosexuality, abolished capital punishment and made racial discrimination illegal in employment and housing. Attlee's government created the modern welfare state, restored British finances after the war and set the country upon an unparalleled period of growth and equality. Even MacDonald's minority governments had solid achievements to its name in unemployment policy and revision to the Treaty of Versailles.  Yet it's never enough. And of course it isn't.

The main difference on the Left - and it's quite a big one that shouldn't be denied - is between those who think social-democratic change has to be incremental and those who think we can reach 'socialism' in one big almighty step. Those who subscribe to the former view will be more tolerant of the Labour party and the endless compromises it must make to achieve power and to govern effectively. Those who subscribe to the latter have no such tolerance. They are not tolerant of the Labour party, or of the "failures" of the British people who never quite match up to their own integrity or intelligence. They are, I think, destined to be perpetually disappointed partly because it is so enjoyable to be disappointed.

I don't think you will find anyone who is very poor or in real need in the purist camp. The purists tend to be quite comfortable themselves and have usually been educated up to quite a high level. Those on the sharp end want Labour to be successful because they know how difficult life can get under Tory governments.   
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 09:38:49 pm by Yorkykopite »
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #90 on: October 18, 2022, 09:50:53 pm »
Yorky  quality post.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #91 on: October 18, 2022, 10:12:38 pm »
Yep, great post yorky, very clear and to the point.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #92 on: October 18, 2022, 11:32:52 pm »
I can pretty much classify my life as three spells

Thatcher/major governments.  Utterly shit times.  I remember an old lady near us waited six fucking years for a knee replacement. You could literally hear the bones grating against each other

Blair/brown government.  Crime went down, school and hospitals got better, hell, everything got better. Happy times.

Cameron, May, c*nt, lettuce.  Utterly shit times. Nothing was good. Everything got worse.



And if any of you are being fannies because labour isn’t this that or the other…. Then I refer you to the list above again. What would you prefer?
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #93 on: October 19, 2022, 10:41:55 am »
The idea that the British public rejected Labour in 2010 and onwards because those influential and popular leftwing voices we were all drowning in back then told them to do so is fanciful. The left didn't tell those people Labour did nothing for them, some lefties might have said that, but no-one was listening apart from the already converted. Voters made up their own minds and acted accordingly, either through switching to other parties or switching off entirely.


Exactly.

Swathes of 'working class' in the 'red wall' didn't support Brexit then en masse vote Tory because some lefties were saying 'New Labour are just like the Tories'

These people experienced the overall quality of their lives worsening over years. They were fed a diet of propaganda by the mainstream right-wing media and in many cases through social media, that the culprits for this were the EU and immigrants and benefits scroungers; too many fell for the lie.

But they wouldn't have been so receptive to such propaganda if they had considered their lives to be great and felt that they were benefitting from the socio-economic model broadly followed by successive governments.

I've no doubt that the vast majority of people would be better off under a Blair or Brown or Starmer-led Labour government than they would under any Tory government, because these Labour governments seek to lessen some of the inevitable negative impacts of 'neoliberalism'/corporate-capitalism.

But there's a pervading sense that things could be even better if you had a government who had at its heart a commitment to a more equal distribution of wealth, with all the things that go with that (from seriously tackling tax-dodging, to using a progressive tax system to fund extensive public services, to better workers' and trade union rights). Not a government that sought to continue the same general economic model but tweak the periphery to 'wrap the capitalist iron fist in a little padding'.

My take isn't about 'purity' or 'ideology' or any other pithy jibe that certain posters care to make to try to dismiss what 'lefties' say. It's about how best to make people's live better. Not just a bit better, but a lot better. It can be done; there's no shortage of money - the crux of the problem is that too much is amasseds in too few hands. And, as a number of opinion polls have indicated over many years, there is public support for most economic policies that are considered 'left-wing' now (like properly-funded and strong public services, against privatisation and outsourcing, a progressive tax system, etc)
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #94 on: October 19, 2022, 02:04:23 pm »
Both great posts by Yorky and Nobby. Very good summaries of Labour´s age old predicaments, and I don´t believe the two posts are at odds either.

The first part of Yorky´s post mentions this, and it is a spot on observation:

Quote
Of course Labour never does everything that its purist supporters want it to do and it never satisfies those who take an ideological view of politics and an incurious view of British society and how it works.

However I would say by that same token, this is what led people on the more self-declared "practical" side of Labour to also miss the gradual loss of faith in Labour in its own heartlands, for some of the reasons Nobby laid out. This was not an electoral issue while those ex-Labour voters just stopped bothering to vote at all, and so was largely ignored by those claiming to understand what the British public want. It became more of an issue when those same voters started tilting towards the populist right of UKIP and Johnson. The sad conclusion of this "practical" line of thought was Miliband campaigning on a disastrous policy of austerity-lite.

It is a difficult balancing act, and it always will be for Labour.

I think the main thing we should all be able to agree on here is that we want the Tories out and Starmer´s Labour in.

The stuff about Great British Energy was fantastic politics, and good economic sense. Ticks all the boxes. Combats climate change, challenges the private firms, sticks the "Great British" tag on something that is actually productive and beneficial. There is plenty of room for more policies like this. I think the National Care Service was another one getting thrown about. You build these institutions up into a point of national pride, just like the NHS, and they become very difficult for any future Tory governments to remove.

Gordon Browns constitutional and federal reforms are also the sorts of lasting policies to bring real structural political change that this country desperately needs, and I think the only thing that will keep the Union together. Not so glamorous, but necessary. What I would ultimately love to see is attempts to bring in these sorts of Federal reforms in the first term, to then run for a second term on the self-sacrificing promise of PR. Then we would have had a Labour government for the ages.

Corbyn, Blair and all the rest of them are in the past. Starmer does have an oppurtunity to do something different here.



« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 02:39:08 pm by Indomitable_Carp »

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #95 on: October 19, 2022, 02:15:30 pm »
Both great posts by Yorky and Nobby. Very good summaries of Labour´s age old predicaments, and I don´t believe the two posts are at odds either.

The first part of Yorky´s post mentions this, and it is a spot on observation:

However I would say by that same token, this is what led people on the more self-declared "practical" side of Labour to also miss the gradual loss of faith in Labour in its own heartlands, for some of the reasons Nobby laid out. This was not an electoral issue while those ex-Labour voters just stopped bothering to vote at all, and so was largely ignored by those claiming to understand what the British public want. It became more of an issue when those same voters started tilting towards the populist right of UKIP and Johnson. The sad conclusion of this was Miliband campaigning on a disasterous policy of austerity-lite.

It is a difficult balancing act, and it always will be for Labour.

I think the main thing we should all be able to agree on here is that we want the Tories out and Starmer´s Labour in.

The stuff about Great British Energy was fantastic politics, and good economic sense. Ticks all the boxes. Combats climate change, challenges the private firms, sticks the "Great British" tag on something that is actually productive and beneficial. There is plenty of room for more policies like this. I think the National Care Service was another one getting thrown about. You build these institutions up into a point of national pride, just like the NHS, and they become very difficult for any fuuture Tory governments to remove.

Gordan Browns constitutional and federal reforms are also the sorts of lasting policies to bring real structural political change that this country desperately needs, and I think the only thing that will keep the Union together. Not so glamorous, but necessary. What I would ultimately love to see is attempts to bring in these sorts of Federal reforms in the first term, to then run for a second term on the self-sacrificing promise of PR. Then we would have had a Labour government for the ages.

Corbyn, Blair and all the rest of them are in the past. Starmer does have an oppurtunity to do something different here.


A very fair and knowledgeable summary, IC  :thumbup
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #96 on: October 19, 2022, 04:25:24 pm »
The question is, Why do people who would benefit from a Labour government turn on them, why do they vote Tory, why do they become apathetic and stop at home on election day.
We've covered the" they are all the same" "They are all in it for themselves"  cynical ignorant opinion that results in many people not bothering to vote thinking Labour are no different than the Torys, in other words it doesn't matter who's in power we still get shafted.
They must have short memory's considering what we went through from 79-1997 and how all these things improved after Labour came to power. so are they right to hold these opinions or do they not take a blind bit of notice of politics, politics is a blur to these people. they don't know what Labour did when they came to power, if they don't know what Labour did in power then there's the answer on why they think Labour did nothing for them. this is something Labour should learn from, Trump+Johnson never stopped boasting about all their so called world beating policys, people were impressed by it. the answer is Labour have to do the same when they get into power, don't just pass good policys that help people and then expect people to remember who brought them in, brag about them non stop till voters don't forget.
The idea that many voters form opinions based on their knowledge of politics is simply not true.
Voters are given opinions by others, the Torys, the media, friends.
Labour lost the 2015 election because of debt, Cameron argued we cant leave this debt for our children and g/children to pay off. voters were really angry with Labour over this debt, I remember Miliband being torn into by some really angry voters. the Torys won that election yet the Torys nearly doubled that national debt in a few yrs,  nobody was bothered about it in 2017+2019, why weren't those same people who were angry with Labour not angry with the Torys in the following elections, the Torys and the media ignored it, nobody was telling those voters to get angry. nobody gave them a opinion on debt so it wasn't as issue.
The EU referendum was another good example of ignorant people turning on people who try to protect their living standards and their legal protection + standards at work.
The Red wall voters were in clusters. whole communities talking shite to each other.  propaganda wins among lazy ignorance and apathy. the EU never did nothing for us many said, the evidence proved otherwise, we are back to the same point.
Many are given opinions as they pay no attention to politics, this is not about arguing the EU ignored them or let them down, all that mattered little as many didn't know what the EU had done to improve their lives in the first place. the same applies to Labour, if people didn't notice what the EU+Labour did to improve their lives then arguing they should have done more doesn't really stand up. would these people have even noticed if they had done more. hard to claim they would considering they didn't even know what they had actually done to improve their lives.

Wining elections isn't all about your past record while in power, it's not all about passing policy's that make lives worse or better and expecting to be voted back in all the time, if that was true then a Tory Majority government would be rare.
Politics is about bringing in credible intelligent leaders and MPs who win the arguments. I wish that wasn't the case but that's what it boils down too.

The Red wall voters are a new generation, people who grew up with parents voting Labour blindly, they took delight in telling us they had had enough of the same old fashioned opinions, fair enough but they were still ignorant, they didn't know who their friends and enemy were.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 04:52:18 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #97 on: October 19, 2022, 06:55:59 pm »
Never let it be said that I’m always right…

Ok… do say that ;)
And the nasty sh*t hasn't even hit RAWKS fan yet  :-X

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #98 on: October 20, 2022, 11:44:27 am »
Starmer with a well-received speech to the TUC

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline ljycb

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #99 on: October 20, 2022, 04:14:49 pm »
Starmer with a well-received speech to the TUC

The speech is linked below for anyone who has yet to see or read it.

https://www.tuc.org.uk/speeches/keir-starmer-tuc-congress-2022

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #100 on: October 20, 2022, 07:22:12 pm »
And the nasty sh*t hasn't even hit RAWKS fan yet  :-X
Yeah, I’d be on the other side of the fence form you on that I think…

But to be honest, it does neither side any good.

fuck the tories…that’s my mantra
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #101 on: October 21, 2022, 02:24:49 am »
Yeah, I’d be on the other side of the fence form you on that I think…

But to be honest, it does neither side any good.

fuck the tories…that’s my mantra
At least we a few things in common Tepid
As for 'which side of the fence' I'm a bit more optimistic I'd at least wait to see which brown stuff is hitting the spinny thing first...

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #102 on: October 21, 2022, 11:42:39 am »
FFS, City of Chester Labour MP Chris Matheson found guilty of 'serious sexual misconduct' and suspended for 4 weeks. He's subsequently resigned and a by-election will take place.

From mainstream reports, he was accused of basically badgering a member of staff for a fling. He denies any of his behaviour was 'sexually motivated'. From the report:

Quote
There is no doubt that [Mr Matheson] was seeking to initiate a sexual relationship with the complainant, his junior employee. This wished-for relationship was unwanted and unwelcome throughout.

The evidence confirms that his actions were entirely non-consensual, as well as threatening, intimidating, undermining and humiliating for the complainant.

Matheson was moderate-left. Supported Burnham, then Owen Smith against Corbyn. Very outspoken atni-Brexiter. Once shouted in the face of Amber Rudd for refusing a public inquiry into what the filth did at Orgreave.

Prior to this, came across a decent MP.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #103 on: October 21, 2022, 11:45:44 am »
FFS, City of Chester Labour MP Chris Matheson found guilty of 'serious sexual misconduct' and suspended for 4 weeks. He's subsequently resigned and a by-election will take place.

From mainstream reports, he was accused of basically badgering a member of staff for a fling. He denies any of his behaviour was 'sexually motivated'. From the report:

Matheson was moderate-left. Supported Burnham, then Owen Smith against Corbyn. Very outspoken atni-Brexiter. Once shouted in the face of Amber Rudd for refusing a public inquiry into what the filth did at Orgreave.

Prior to this, came across a decent MP.

Basically, the same crime as my Tory MP who didnt resign.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #104 on: October 21, 2022, 12:19:34 pm »
Basically, the same crime as my Tory MP who didnt resign.


Yep, his full resignation allows Labour to take a moral highground position.

Whether they/Starmer bother to use that - by highlighting the difference in propriety of how the two parties react to such incidents - remains to be seen.
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #105 on: October 21, 2022, 01:15:34 pm »
He’s my constituency MP and pretty diligent (apparently an Everton season ticket holder though).

He’s done the decent thing and the bye election will be interesting. Chester has previously been a Conservative stronghold electing such political giants as Sir Peter Morrison and Giles Brandreth.

Since 1997 been a bit of a swing seat and the Tories won in 2010  and lost it to Matheson in 2010, who increased his majority in 2019.

It’s a seat Labour should not only hold but increase their majority.

Wonder what Burnham’s thoughts are?

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #106 on: October 21, 2022, 02:27:37 pm »
He’s my constituency MP and pretty diligent (apparently an Everton season ticket holder though).

He’s done the decent thing and the bye election will be interesting. Chester has previously been a Conservative stronghold electing such political giants as Sir Peter Morrison and Giles Brandreth.

Since 1997 been a bit of a swing seat and the Tories won in 2010  and lost it to Matheson in 2010, who increased his majority in 2019.

It’s a seat Labour should not only hold but increase their majority.

Wonder what Burnham’s thoughts are?

Would he view it as a safe enough seat?
https://members.parliament.uk/constituency/3416/election-history

Always thought come election time Bury south, currently held by Christian Wakeford. (ex tory) was most likely for Burnham.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #107 on: October 21, 2022, 02:31:35 pm »
Would he view it as a safe enough seat?
https://members.parliament.uk/constituency/3416/election-history

Always thought come election time Bury south, currently held by Christian Wakeford. (ex tory) was most likely for Burnham.

My memory is fading!

He increased his majority from 93 to 9176 in 2017 but it slipped back in 2019.

I wouldn’t say it was a safe seat but both of the Labour MPs have been local residents so maybe a high profile figure being parachuted in won’t help.

This could be a tricky away tie.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #108 on: October 21, 2022, 02:38:44 pm »
My memory is fading!

He increased his majority from 93 to 9176 in 2017 but it slipped back in 2019.

I wouldn’t say it was a safe seat but both of the Labour MPs have been local residents so maybe a high profile figure being parachuted in won’t help.

This could be a tricky away tie.

Id really like to get Burnham back in the PLP.

There isnt really a precedent, but I wonder what they will do with Wakeford.  Was he offered a guarantee when he crossed the floor?
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #109 on: October 21, 2022, 03:14:45 pm »
He’s my constituency MP and pretty diligent (apparently an Everton season ticket holder though).

He’s done the decent thing and the bye election will be interesting. Chester has previously been a Conservative stronghold electing such political giants as Sir Peter Morrison and Giles Brandreth.

Since 1997 been a bit of a swing seat and the Tories won in 2010  and lost it to Matheson in 2010, who increased his majority in 2019.

It’s a seat Labour should not only hold but increase their majority.

Wonder what Burnham’s thoughts are?
Just because he isn't ignoring the suspension doesn't qualify him for decent behaviours. He's very much not done a decent thing, hence an independent investigation (and findings that he was in the wrong).

And even despite those findings - including repeated contact and kissing and comments - he's still not taken full responsibility for his actions and denies any sexual intent. He also believes that a four week suspension for doing this to a younger staff member is "an excessive and unfair penalty".

Let's not accidentally hold him to a different standard just because of his party (I don't think that you are, I mean this point more broadly). It's just seeing the word decent applied to anything about him, on the day this complaint that he's admitted to (in terms of events) has been upheld, is much too positive.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #110 on: October 21, 2022, 03:16:55 pm »
Glad he resigned fast. Get him out quick. Unlike Tories, where this kind of thing is accepted as leadership material.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #111 on: October 21, 2022, 04:23:40 pm »
It's depressing how may people are still absolute meh over Starmer and don't consider him PM material at all. They don't find him very inspiring. :(

I'm only guessing, but considering his background in law, rather than lead the witness he's allowed the defendant to incriminate themselves. Labour seem to have become adept at laying quiet, subtle little traps for the Tories to fall into, but they're so subtle most voters don't seem to realise them for what they are.

I could just be seeing smoke and mirrors though.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #112 on: October 21, 2022, 05:15:27 pm »
It's depressing how may people are still absolute meh over Starmer and don't consider him PM material at all. They don't find him very inspiring. :(

I'm only guessing, but considering his background in law, rather than lead the witness he's allowed the defendant to incriminate themselves. Labour seem to have become adept at laying quiet, subtle little traps for the Tories to fall into, but they're so subtle most voters don't seem to realise them for what they are.

I could just be seeing smoke and mirrors though.

I think he just doesn't fit with how they see the world working where it's all scream, shout, argue, abuse, passive aggressive, social media sound bite type shite.


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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #113 on: October 21, 2022, 05:39:50 pm »
I have to say, I don’t find him terribly inspiring…

But the other day, I read his Wikipedia entry in some detail..

That was inspiring . 

Few in parliament have contributed so much to a better society.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #114 on: October 21, 2022, 05:46:50 pm »
I think he just doesn't fit with how they see the world working where it's all scream, shout, argue, abuse, passive aggressive, social media sound bite type shite.


I just worry he'll be another case of keeping the same broad UK macro-economic path (but with a few bits of padding round the periphery), when it's increasingly clear there needs to be a wholesale change to the direction of travel.

The biggest source of most of the UK's problems are that too much of the monetary pot is in the hands of a relatively tiny number of people. That in turn is facilitated by the 'UK financial spider's web', which allows tax-dodging, asset-hiding and money-laundering.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #115 on: October 21, 2022, 05:53:09 pm »
I think Starmer is pretty good prime minister material. Probably better qualified than most in our history for the role, in terms of intellectual and technical capacity anyway. He is a bit bland but I think the public might be coming round to that sort of thing now.

My concern is that he isn't bold enough. This is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity for Labour to enact genuine radical reform in this country, an opportunity that might not come around again for a long time, and if they try and put things off by saying something should be done in a second term risks them losing momemtum and popularity by then. It's maybe a bit hyperbolic and bit early to say this, but feels a bit like Starmer could shoot someone in Trafalgar Square and still win the next election. He needs to take advantage of that.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #116 on: October 21, 2022, 06:00:28 pm »
Just because he isn't ignoring the suspension doesn't qualify him for decent behaviours. He's very much not done a decent thing, hence an independent investigation (and findings that he was in the wrong).

And even despite those findings - including repeated contact and kissing and comments - he's still not taken full responsibility for his actions and denies any sexual intent. He also believes that a four week suspension for doing this to a younger staff member is "an excessive and unfair penalty".

Let's not accidentally hold him to a different standard just because of his party (I don't think that you are, I mean this point more broadly). It's just seeing the word decent applied to anything about him, on the day this complaint that he's admitted to (in terms of events) has been upheld, is much too positive.

I take your point but at least he resigned, albeit quibbling about the outcome of the enquiry, unlike other MPs who cling to their Parliamentary salary until the jail door clangs behind them.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #117 on: October 21, 2022, 06:05:20 pm »
I think Starmer is pretty good prime minister material. Probably better qualified than most in our history for the role, in terms of intellectual and technical capacity anyway. He is a bit bland but I think the public might be coming round to that sort of thing now.

My concern is that he isn't bold enough. This is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity for Labour to enact genuine radical reform in this country, an opportunity that might not come around again for a long time, and if they try and put things off by saying something should be done in a second term risks them losing momemtum and popularity by then. It's maybe a bit hyperbolic and bit early to say this, but feels a bit like Starmer could shoot someone in Trafalgar Square and still win the next election. He needs to take advantage of that.

Yep, I am concerned about him being bold enough and the issue is Reeves could be a big part of that. But I guess let’s worry about that when we get there.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #118 on: October 21, 2022, 06:08:21 pm »
Just because he isn't ignoring the suspension doesn't qualify him for decent behaviours. He's very much not done a decent thing, hence an independent investigation (and findings that he was in the wrong).

And even despite those findings - including repeated contact and kissing and comments - he's still not taken full responsibility for his actions and denies any sexual intent. He also believes that a four week suspension for doing this to a younger staff member is "an excessive and unfair penalty".

Let's not accidentally hold him to a different standard just because of his party (I don't think that you are, I mean this point more broadly). It's just seeing the word decent applied to anything about him, on the day this complaint that he's admitted to (in terms of events) has been upheld, is much too positive.


"Done the decent thing" is just an expression relating to him fully resigning. Thought SHP's post made that clear, and wasn't at all trying to justify his actions in relation to the events in question.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #119 on: October 21, 2022, 06:22:53 pm »

I just worry he'll be another case of keeping the same broad UK macro-economic path (but with a few bits of padding round the periphery), when it's increasingly clear there needs to be a wholesale change to the direction of travel.

The biggest source of most of the UK's problems are that too much of the monetary pot is in the hands of a relatively tiny number of people. That in turn is facilitated by the 'UK financial spider's web', which allows tax-dodging, asset-hiding and money-laundering.

I suppose that could happen but that's exactly what I meant about he's not screaming and shouting everything from the rooftops.

As far as I'm aware he's not said he'll allow things to continue and as much as that's not inspiring he'd very quickly turn people against voting labour if he was a shouty 70s shop steward type activist.

He can't and shouldn't be making promises he either can't keep or has no intention of doing as that gains nothing but disappointment.