Author Topic: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?  (Read 328314 times)

Online BarryCrocker

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #40 on: September 3, 2021, 12:40:57 pm »
I thnk we can all agree though that are large number of Americans are pretty stupid. I mean;

Trump loyalists team up with anti-vax doctors for ‘health and freedom’ tour


Top loyalists to Donald Trump, who frequently push lies about election fraud, have joined forces with conservative doctors touting unproven Covid curesand vaccine skepticism, and like-minded evangelical ministers at a series of events across the US this summer.

The conservative “ReAwaken America” tour – featuring ex-general Michael Flynn and top Donald Trump loyalist donors – has held events in Florida, Michigan and other states.

It underscores how Trump’s allies, anti-vaccine doctors and conservative preachers are amplifying baseless claims that are hurting the nation’s public health and its democracy with potentially far-reaching impacts, say pandemic and election experts.

Further, Gold’s group announced in May that it was launching a national RV “Uncensored Truth Tour” with an initial focus on several states including Arizona, Texas and Florida.

Florida had 5,700 deaths in August.
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #41 on: September 3, 2021, 12:45:42 pm »
:lmao

Hey, Lone Star. What do you think of your state's abortion bounty law, and do you think any of your votes have contributed to it? Asking for 15 million Texan women.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #42 on: September 3, 2021, 12:52:06 pm »
You think that evil abortion law would be passed in the UK? I disagree.

I dislike the Tories as much as anyone, but there is a gulf between their biggest nutters and the default right-wing stance in the US

I don`t *think* that would pass here at the moment either, because we don`t have that level of (faux) religious zealotry that is bred into Americans along with their fetishistic love of capitalism.

My point is that we have no real opposition to our government in the UK, and haven`t for a long time. Since i was a wee boy we`ve only had the Blair/Brown Labour Government that had to give at least the impression of being centre right in order to get elected. The establishment and the media are staunch allies and backers of the Tory Party. At least in the United States there are two teams with some semblance of checks and balances to limit excesses. Though as Trump showed these need some work on them. What if a competent autocrat comes along?
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #43 on: September 3, 2021, 01:24:41 pm »
I don`t *think* that would pass here at the moment either, because we don`t have that level of (faux) religious zealotry that is bred into Americans along with their fetishistic love of capitalism.

My point is that we have no real opposition to our government in the UK, and haven`t for a long time. Since i was a wee boy we`ve only had the Blair/Brown Labour Government that had to give at least the impression of being centre right in order to get elected. The establishment and the media are staunch allies and backers of the Tory Party. At least in the United States there are two teams with some semblance of checks and balances to limit excesses. Though as Trump showed these need some work on them. What if a competent autocrat comes along?

I'd argue that there is no real opposition in the States either. Both the Republicans and the Democrat parties seem to be right of anything we have in the UK.

One thing I find strange in the US is that they mark Communism and Fascism as 'Far Left' whereas the rest of the world sees Fascism as far-right. Maybe because it makes the Republicans uncomfortable?



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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #44 on: September 3, 2021, 01:29:56 pm »
I'd argue that there is no real opposition in the States either. Both the Republicans and the Democrat parties seem to be right of anything we have in the UK.

I don't disagree that the dems are in many ways to the right of what we have here, but I do find it amusing you are pretty much doing what you spend so much time moaning about your mates on social media doing - claiming that everyone to the right of your views are basically the same and not a proper opposition.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #45 on: September 3, 2021, 01:48:01 pm »
It's a very very angry country full of hate filled right and left leaning organisations. The divide is massive and won't be healed anytime soon.


What's increasingly fuelling that anger is overall economic decline.

Much of industrial USA has been in terminal decline since the 70's. Outsourcing of the manufacturing process (so corporations could make even fatter profits) has amplified that. Many people have done well over there, but an increasing proportion - from birth sold the myth of an American Dream that promised a progressively better standard of living - have found their own lives to be a worsening struggle.

Of course, people don't use logic and identify that the problem is the entire corporate-capitalist economic system, which has thrown Blue Collar America under a bus (again, because they're brainwashed from birth on that free-market, work hard, American Dream bullshit?)

Instead they blame the bogeymen created by the corporation-slave politicians (of both parties) and their media mouthpieces. The right-wing ones create bogeymen of black people, of immigrants, of 'godless liberals' (most are also brainwashed from birth on all that christian skyfairy bollocks). They are fed a comfort blanket of ultra-nationalism (they call it patriotism) and of the right to have guns.


But would they be so accepting and angry if they all had good, secure jobs? If entire cities and towns weren't laid to economic waste? If all had enough money to love comfortably and send their kids to college?

I'm guessing the vast majority wouldn't be.
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #46 on: September 3, 2021, 01:55:05 pm »
it is easy....countries with poor education, large wealth gap and poor accessibility to essential services do end up in shit

It is not entirely Trump's or any other republican or democratic fault, they just pour petrol to a fire that is already there
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #47 on: September 3, 2021, 02:01:56 pm »
it is easy....countries with poor education, large wealth gap and poor accessibility to essential services do end up in shit

It is not entirely Trump's or any other republican or democratic fault, they just pour petrol to a fire that is already there


The Repugs - and Trump took it to a new level - just exploit the anger for electoral gain, by blaming certain groups that are easy to blame.


We've seen so many parallels in the UK - right wing politicians and the predominantly right-wing media (esp. print media) heaping the blame for the shittiness of people's lives on immigrants, trade unions, loony-lefties, benefits 'scroungers', the EU, etc. They've been hugely successful, too. It both generates support for right-wing parties, and also deflects attention away from the real reasons why people struggle economically (that too much of the wealth generated by the nation's collective endeavours are hoarded by too few people).
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Commie Bobbie

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #48 on: September 3, 2021, 02:10:07 pm »

The Repugs - and Trump took it to a new level - just exploit the anger for electoral gain, by blaming certain groups that are easy to blame.


We've seen so many parallels in the UK - right wing politicians and the predominantly right-wing media (esp. print media) heaping the blame for the shittiness of people's lives on immigrants, trade unions, loony-lefties, benefits 'scroungers', the EU, etc. They've been hugely successful, too. It both generates support for right-wing parties, and also deflects attention away from the real reasons why people struggle economically (that too much of the wealth generated by the nation's collective endeavours are hoarded by too few people).


Not just that, but we have seen in the past few decades how Missionary groups connected to the the dangerous wing of the GOP (because I think using such terms such as loony, is offensive to people such as myself who suffer from mental health conditions) - have spread their message across parts of Latin America and Africa.

The means and ways that such right-wing groups have weaponised the internet in the last 20 years has almost certainly meant that acts of violence that would have taken months and months to organise - can be organised in little or no time at all. How Ruby Ridge and Waco would have worked out in the age of social media is any guess, even more so with one of their own in power - and with their foot soldiers in the corridors of Capitol Hill, with some having not so democratic intentions as they say they do. I suspect once the pandemic ends, we may see the 2019 intake of Dangerous Tories start to flex their own warped agendas.

Although England is nowhere near as far down the road as parts of the US are, I have no doubt that we are heading down that road.
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Online skipper757

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #49 on: September 3, 2021, 02:15:37 pm »
America has the same issues as many other developed nations:  the difficulty balancing selfish interests vs. the well-being of society.  The high standard of living overall, growth-focused mindset, and individual interests have made the notion of sacrifice and consequences very difficult to stomach.

Take, for example, student loans.  Over time, people didn't want to pay state taxes and with states facing shortfalls (and public universities needing to compete with private ones), the government began backing loans.  But what outcome was this going to lead to?  People back then wanted to simultaneously pay less in taxes, want schools to be competitive, and want more people to have access to college.  Well, in the real world, that unicorn doesn't exist, so we have a massive amount in student loans.  The thing is, it's basically baked into tuition, expenses, etc.  To truly change the system, we need to address many facets:
-The role of public vs. private institutions:  can public universities keep up if we impose limitations on their budget in exchange for lower tuition?
-The role of public and private lenders:  how should loans be treated?  Can we push students towards cheaper in-state tuition?  Can we make loans based on majors?
-The role of university administration:  can this bureaucracy be trimmed down?
-The role of university departments:  should universities re-evaluate all the departments they have?  Can we focus on departments that can lead to better job prospects for those who take loans?
-The role of the state and taxpayers:  how much more should taxpayers contribute to in-state schools?

In the end, it's multi-faceted and complicated.  We got here through decades of issues.  It's not one quick fix.  But any comprehensive reform is difficult because:
-State universities have oversight at state levels
-All stakeholders have their own vested interests
-Plans will take many years to implement
-Sacrifices and limitations of choice will have to be made.

Will Americans accept that?  Not a chance.  Politicians know that, which is why they try to think of short-term solutions and try their best to ignore long-term effects, knowing that the public focuses on the short-term.

Pretty much every problem in America is the result of many years of actions and policies (supported by voters and politicians alike).  Yet, there's very little stomach for long-term planning.  Take the concept of a "business-friendly mayor" or "business-friendly governor:"
-Tax breaks for corporations to invest
-Keep taxes low even as population grows and need for additional investments increases
-Ignore bourgeoning issues and champion growth only
-Leave office with high approval rating and run for higher office

That city down the road will have $4,000 studio apartments next to homeless tents.  It's an incentive problem.  It is easier to be popular as a politician to not make major decisions that piss people off.  People in America are generally well-off, and growth cities even more so.  Why raise taxes or force infrastructure upgrades (or increase budget for services) when you can just ride the status quo to higher office?  The people that vote in officials obviously love jobs and tax cuts.  But of course,  people will complain about the lack of public transit or affordability down the road.  Some of those are the same people (who will blame budget problems on others) while other people that weren't responsible for past actions are upset they now have to shoulder the burden.  Well, the people and politicians over the years chose not to have a strong foundation, so there are your consequences.  If you built the necessary foundations earlier, it'd be cheaper and more sustainable, but no one is incentivized to behave this way.  In fact, once the city's many issues are exposed, some will actually reminisce about how great it was in the past (without the realization that "how great it was" came at the detriment of sustainability).

It's like a person eating a lot of junk food and not exercising much for decades and then being told by a doctor to eat healthy foods and workout.  You'd probably hate it while at the same time reminisce about the good times (well it's the "good times" that got you here).

Actions have consequences, and it's something Americans cannot fathom to a degree.

We can look at:
-Jobs:  globalization and automation means new opportunities for growth and a whole of great news for many Americans.  But at the same time, if your industry offshores a lot of the work you do or your city of Flint Michigan loses the GM plant employing tens of thousands, you're in trouble.  At the same time, tech and finance is booming (just not in your industry nor your city).  Whose fault is it that we have a major wealth gap and dying towns and less mobility?  It's Americans and the politicians they elected.
-Housing:  draconian zoning laws, supply constraints, and cheap rates have fueled real estate as a "safe" investment, leading to more investors and even corporations partaking in single-family homes.  We essentially have baked in increases in housing prices due to this environment.  About 2/3rds of Americans own homes.  So if you're an older homeowner, this is great news as prices are going up, which is great for when you want to sell and retire.  Politicians know who their base is (hint:  it's not disaffected non-home owning millennials).  At this point, you can't survive a housing crash (or a stock market crash) as a politician.  We can build more houses, but often in less accessible areas, which requires more infrastructure spending (and maybe higher taxes?  Uh oh).  So ultimately, people are worried about home ownership?  Whose fault is that?  It's fellow Americans and the politicians they elected over the years.

Ultimately, America is responsible for America.  Otherwise, it's not a representative democracy.  The people have spoken, and they have chosen to try to have their cake and eat it.  The UK has a similar trend.  For example, someone in the climate thread posted that the majority of people in the UK are willing to eat less meat and travel less to combat climate change, but that reverses drastically when asked if they were willing to take a financial hit to combat climate change.  That's also America in a nutshell.  I want my own selfish interests (aka less taxes, continued growth in assets) but also simultaneously want more infrastructure and better government services.  I also want specific needs (e.g. health) when it suits me.  How do you satisfy those hundreds of millions of people?  Well, you don't.  And reform ends up getting kicked down the road.

There are tradeoffs and long-term consequences to consider, but America hasn't really cared about this.  Any politician that tries on a grand scale is asking for trouble.  It's a feedback loop between voters and politicians.

Politicians have instead resorted to the age-old blame game.  "Immigrants took your jobs.  China/India stole your jobs.  The Chinese are buying up all your houses."  Do you guys remember when the Indian/Chinese military showed up and forced American businesses to give up jobs?  Yea, me neither.

American companies supported globalization for more efficient deployment of capital.
American cities are the ones with zoning restrictions.
Americans are the ones who voted in politicians that didn't address climate, job-training, welfare, etc.
Americans have the power to tell representatives to enact legislation to ban foreign ownership (ask real estate developers, homeowners in wealthy areas, etc if they want this).

In the end, America is responsible for America.  Politicians will blame anyone else but themselves, and it's led to the hyper-partisanship, which makes it even easier too (it's not just the foreigners fault but Obama's too!).

Politicians know that the problems facing the country would take long-term planning and cooperation to solve along with individual sacrifice.  They also know that that is increasingly unlikely.  So kicking the can down the road becomes the norm.  Republican policy is rooted in not straying from the path we're on.  It's also why their most popular federal policy is tax cuts because that is the most popular, short-term action you can take to keep voters happy.  Of course, what about consequences of these actions?  Well....

Climate, mental health/homelessness, gun violence, racism, lack of economic opportunity, etc are long-term problems that require long-term solutions.  But if you're not keen on changing the system, then pointing fingers and playing the blame game is the perfect stalling tactic.  Once you layer in self-interest of voters (many of whom say they care about the issues but do not want to be financially impacted), it is difficult to address things.  Progress gets made in some places, but in others, it is harder to move.

Ultimately, the concept of the individual is fully ingrained in America to the extent it could be detrimental to the country as a whole (the pandemic highlights this perfectly).  But the individual, when it comes to concepts such as freedom, only care about it from a myopic point of view ("Me, me, me").  What about other people's right to exercise their rights (voting, protesting, court actions, etc)?  Even taking into account those who do champion personal liberties (not the hypocritical ones), you still have a problem with consequences.  You can protest at January 6, but even if you can't get arrested under the 1st amendment, you could lose your job.  I've seen comments online from cases in the past where people use "freedom of speech" as a defense even when in the case of employment.

What if the only way to solve America's issues were to make sacrifices?  The actions were taken for many years, but the consequences will have to be dealt with now.  Can people come together to realize that America's problem is Americans and that the only people that can solve it are Americans?  Or will we continue to live in denial about the work we have, kick the can down the road, and waste more time and resources not addressing issues?

The older generation talk about how great things were (without realizing their growth was to the detriment of future).  The younger generation have to make sacrifices, but find it unfair (why do I have to shoulder the burden).

Only way the change things is to work together, but there are plenty of Americans that don't want that change (and that's how we get gridlock and hyper-partisanship).  After all, throughout most of their lives, everything only goes up and growth is the only answer.  We made our bed, and now we have to lie in it.
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Offline Chakan

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #50 on: September 3, 2021, 02:21:39 pm »
There's large swaths of the US that has first world technology with 3rd world thinking.

god will save us. jesus christ is the only law in the country.

Offline GBF

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #51 on: September 3, 2021, 03:07:36 pm »

The Repugs - and Trump took it to a new level - just exploit the anger for electoral gain, by blaming certain groups that are easy to blame.


We've seen so many parallels in the UK - right wing politicians and the predominantly right-wing media (esp. print media) heaping the blame for the shittiness of people's lives on immigrants, trade unions, loony-lefties, benefits 'scroungers', the EU, etc. They've been hugely successful, too. It both generates support for right-wing parties, and also deflects attention away from the real reasons why people struggle economically (that too much of the wealth generated by the nation's collective endeavours are hoarded by too few people).


That is what extreme right wings do: poke, put petrol on fire, be a constant opposite to everything.  Not all Repubs are extreme right wings but at the same time not all Democrats are left wings or centrists. 

These days everyone want to have their own identities and to show they are better than the other identities out there.  Before the world was simpler, now we identify as a fridge and will protest if people are eating something others don't like.

In my home country, we call this 1st world problem.  Life is too comfortable so we invent problems and then this become too big to handle 



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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #52 on: September 3, 2021, 04:17:55 pm »
I don't disagree that the dems are in many ways to the right of what we have here, but I do find it amusing you are pretty much doing what you spend so much time moaning about your mates on social media doing - claiming that everyone to the right of your views are basically the same and not a proper opposition.

That's a fair point. Of course the Democrats seem to be a world away from the Republicans, but they are basically around the Tory Party in their political outlook.

Which always makes it more amusing when they get accused of being zany left-wing commie zealots :)
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Offline newrosswaterford

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #53 on: September 3, 2021, 04:22:51 pm »
America has the same issues as many other developed nations:  the difficulty balancing selfish interests vs. the well-being of society.  The high standard of living overall, growth-focused mindset, and individual interests have made the notion of sacrifice and consequences very difficult to stomach.

Take, for example, student loans.  Over time, people didn't want to pay state taxes and with states facing shortfalls (and public universities needing to compete with private ones), the government began backing loans.  But what outcome was this going to lead to?  People back then wanted to simultaneously pay less in taxes, want schools to be competitive, and want more people to have access to college.  Well, in the real world, that unicorn doesn't exist, so we have a massive amount in student loans.  The thing is, it's basically baked into tuition, expenses, etc.  To truly change the system, we need to address many facets:
-The role of public vs. private institutions:  can public universities keep up if we impose limitations on their budget in exchange for lower tuition?
-The role of public and private lenders:  how should loans be treated?  Can we push students towards cheaper in-state tuition?  Can we make loans based on majors?
-The role of university administration:  can this bureaucracy be trimmed down?
-The role of university departments:  should universities re-evaluate all the departments they have?  Can we focus on departments that can lead to better job prospects for those who take loans?
-The role of the state and taxpayers:  how much more should taxpayers contribute to in-state schools?
*SNIP*
You have a lot of kick back about Universities (spaces, campuses) becoming Left leaning.While some of that comes from the right, a lot of educators are worried politics are becoming to much of a driver in that space.

Thing is they have turned the students into the customer, and as such they start to have an influence on the product. This seems to be totally lost on the educators though. They blame uni boards for bending over for Student demands over professors and what is taught, ignoring the root problem. Colleges have become businesses, the product has become secondary to the money.
« Last Edit: September 3, 2021, 04:25:24 pm by newrosswaterford »

Offline ThoroughlyMediocre

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #54 on: September 3, 2021, 06:08:32 pm »
I've lived in the U.S my whole life (mid-30s), specifically in the Midwest. This means I'm young enough to recall the "messaging" that pretty much every American child receives through a combination of education and, particularly, culture. The main points include:

-America is the greatest country in the world (and pay no attention to any statistics that may argue otherwise, i.e. education rankings, financial disparity, homicides, etc.)
-Democracy is the only form of governing that works and capitalism is the only financial institution that works (all others are evil)
-Showing patriotism is a requirement (in this way, we can acknowledge how fortunate we are to be better than everyone else)
-The founding fathers were omniscient
-No level of compromise is acceptable when it comes to personal freedoms

Each one of these is a problem in its own way. There is never any pressure to truly improve the way we do things because we're already the "best", and anyone who says we're not the best is unpatriotic and doesn't love their country. It's acceptable for Wall Street to fuck over low and middle-class Americans because, well, capitalism says that's OK. We can't possibly take a closer look at the 2nd Amendment because the founders of our country obviously foresaw the creation of semi-automatic rifles and were cool with it. And anyways, all guns have to be allowable because it's MY RIGHT to own a weapon capable of mass murder, just as it's MY RIGHT not to wear a mask or get a vaccine or listen to science in general.

Through it all, we've gotten so... fucking... stupid. Donald Trump was absolutely a symptom of this rank idiocy; it started long ago. It's why legitimate pride exists in being a "redneck", which is essentially synonymous with "simple" - as if this is a a badge of honor. There are a myriad of other issues of course, but this "brainwashing" I describe is chief among them.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #55 on: September 3, 2021, 07:41:18 pm »
On a pure political level the difference between the US and here is that the US voted their far right extremist administration out. 

Due to the federal nature of government in the US the acts of individual states are amplified, particularly the extreme laws pursued by some Republican states where loyalty to the orange one prevails.  But obviously the majority of the country voted Democrat at the last election.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #56 on: September 6, 2021, 09:18:31 am »
I've lived in the U.S my whole life (mid-30s), specifically in the Midwest. This means I'm young enough to recall the "messaging" that pretty much every American child receives through a combination of education and, particularly, culture. The main points include:

-America is the greatest country in the world (and pay no attention to any statistics that may argue otherwise, i.e. education rankings, financial disparity, homicides, etc.)
-Democracy is the only form of governing that works and capitalism is the only financial institution that works (all others are evil)
-Showing patriotism is a requirement (in this way, we can acknowledge how fortunate we are to be better than everyone else)
-The founding fathers were omniscient
-No level of compromise is acceptable when it comes to personal freedoms


Each one of these is a problem in its own way. There is never any pressure to truly improve the way we do things because we're already the "best", and anyone who says we're not the best is unpatriotic and doesn't love their country. It's acceptable for Wall Street to fuck over low and middle-class Americans because, well, capitalism says that's OK. We can't possibly take a closer look at the 2nd Amendment because the founders of our country obviously foresaw the creation of semi-automatic rifles and were cool with it. And anyways, all guns have to be allowable because it's MY RIGHT to own a weapon capable of mass murder, just as it's MY RIGHT not to wear a mask or get a vaccine or listen to science in general.

Through it all, we've gotten so... fucking... stupid. Donald Trump was absolutely a symptom of this rank idiocy; it started long ago. It's why legitimate pride exists in being a "redneck", which is essentially synonymous with "simple" - as if this is a a badge of honor. There are a myriad of other issues of course, but this "brainwashing" I describe is chief among them.

All of that stuff makes it sound like an authoritarian country like North Korea where the Dear Leader can do no wrong and once had a round of golf in 18 strokes.
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #57 on: September 7, 2021, 02:31:33 am »
-America is the greatest country in the world (and pay no attention to any statistics that may argue otherwise, i.e. education rankings, financial disparity, homicides, etc.)
-Democracy is the only form of governing that works and capitalism is the only financial institution that works (all others are evil)
-Showing patriotism is a requirement (in this way, we can acknowledge how fortunate we are to be better than everyone else)
-The founding fathers were omniscient
-No level of compromise is acceptable when it comes to personal freedoms

This is really well put. I see this all the time. People telling me the US is best. I then ask them how many other countries they have been to ?. The answer is pretty much always zero.

Offline AndyInVA

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #58 on: September 7, 2021, 02:36:33 am »
All of that stuff makes it sound like an authoritarian country like North Korea where the Dear Leader can do no wrong and once had a round of golf in 18 strokes.

Its not particularly about the 'leader'.

It's about the 'American Way' being best and that everyone else is wrong and frankly that God has blessed America. I see this mentality all the time where I live. You will have die hard Americans call Biden an idiot and still say this is the best country in the world.

Its not an authoritarian country, it does seem indocrinate its school kids and it is then supported by TV and Hollywood. They play the national anthem before every sport game, there are flags everywhere and it is such a big country they dont go anywhere else. Brits can drive 8 hours from London and go through three countries. I cant drive 12 hours and leave America.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #59 on: September 7, 2021, 04:28:17 am »
They appear to be a brainwashed, North Korean type cult of a country.

Making large numbers of kids pledge allegiance to a fucking flag every day - knob heads.

And the obsession with religion and God that millions of them seem to go in for. Obviously only the white, English speaking God, like.

And then there's the gun fettish. Something very Freudian about all that nonsense. if you ask me.

There's no hope for them. They are the very definition of a lost cause.

Pity the Atlantic isn't a few thousand miles wider.

Its a real shame. I've been to the US about 10 times on various holidays. But no more. Nutters, the lot of them.

It's wonderful how you've labeled an entire group of people in the same category, as if everyone is exactly like you've just described. You know a country with 300 some million people with all different walks of life.

Fucking nutter.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #60 on: September 7, 2021, 04:31:45 am »
Nearly as funny as that backward and barbaric abortion law your State has just passed.

Gotta love those Texans. At least God knows the score and is fully on their side.

Knobheads.

The way you aimed your post at him, is as if he made the rule himself and contributed to the abortion ban.

Again, with the labeling of an entire group of people.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #61 on: September 7, 2021, 04:56:15 am »
Making generalizing statements about an entire group of people [or country] has often lead to terrible and horrible decisions, way of thinking, and atrocities  in the world. I have lived a considerable amount of time in the US, and I've lived in various places, in different parts of the country. No one state is the same, no one part of the country is the same, and no matter what your experience [whether you've been a whole 10 times on your holidays or lived there for a long time like myself], you can't put a whole country under one category, and label everyone the same with the same line of thinking and rhetoric.

Having the experience of living in different parts of the US, I've come across various different and conflicting opinions and mentalities, which is why you have such a drastic split between the Democrats and Republics now. There are some clear and blatant issues socially [gun control, gun laws, the obsession with Religion and politics, just to name a few], which also varies depending on where you live. There are many who have never been outside of their hometown in whatever said state they live in, and don't have any world experiences with any other cultures, which has an impact of their thinking and beliefs.

There are also people who are well educated, well informed, well traveled, but still see nothing wrong with supporting the likes of Trump, McConell,etc.. within the Republican party.  There is a lack of empathy, and lack of willingness to learn, and listen to opposing sides. There are clear cultural issues, which I don't see being resolved anytime soon

Which is why I  mentioned that labeling everyone the same, and concluding that everyone literally has the same obsession with guns, religion,etc.. is absolute nonsense. The political system itself has become a clear issue, and the lack of different parties and lobbying has contributed to certain issues still not being resolved and being a major stumbling block for progress in certain aspects.

Having said that, for all its flaws and issues, there are still things that I am able to do and achieve that I couldn't do in my own country of birth. There are certain freedoms and rights that I have here, that I would be hard pressed to find back in my own country. Does that make it the greatest in the world? That's subjective, perhaps for some sure, for others not, and for some there is no answer. It's nuanced, there are tons of great people living here and who don't fall into the same mentalist category that is being discussed here.

America is the definition of capitalism, for all the good and the bad that go along with it, and while you can have all the opportunities to succeed, there is just a much of a chance of ending up homeless because the healthcare you have isn't good enough to help you, God forbid if you get ill. It's fast and relentless by nature, and it may not be for everyone. But it's evident that it's a major driving force for jobs and opportunities and hope for all those like myself that couldn't get that in their own nations. Ultimately, I don't want to end up living the rest of my life here, as I said the nature of life here is draining itself, the tempo, the lack of empathy [which I've mentioned before], but that could be just my personality.






« Last Edit: September 7, 2021, 05:01:16 am by deFacto please, you bastards »

Offline Corkboy

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #62 on: September 7, 2021, 09:46:12 am »
The way you aimed your post at him, is as if he made the rule himself and contributed to the abortion ban.

Again, with the labeling of an entire group of people.

Lone Star is a Republican voter. Chances are he did contribute to the state of affairs there. I've asked him but no response.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #63 on: September 7, 2021, 10:03:30 am »
Lone Star is a Republican voter. Chances are he did contribute to the state of affairs there. I've asked him but no response.

To be fair to Lone Star, as much as many of us dislike Republicans, I believe he`s said that he`s more of an Independent and votes according to candidates or the issues in the various elections. Whatever those are, I don`t know.
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #64 on: September 7, 2021, 10:22:51 am »
To be fair to Lone Star, as much as many of us dislike Republicans, I believe he`s said that he`s more of an Independent and votes according to candidates or the issues in the various elections. Whatever those are, I don`t know.

Sure but I've had that convo with him before. My take is that if you have voted Republican in Texas at any level then you have played a part in this horror show.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #65 on: September 7, 2021, 04:25:38 pm »
And you're more than entitled to that take, I just happen to disagree with it.

It's a bad law that found some dumb loophole and will more than likely and rightfully get challenged and overturned. My state rep was in favor of the bill but I didn't vote for her in 2020, but I voted for her in 2018. Make of that what you will, I could not care less.
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #66 on: September 7, 2021, 04:28:53 pm »
And you're more than entitled to that take, I just happen to disagree with it.

It's a bad law that found some dumb loophole and will more than likely and rightfully get challenged and overturned. My state rep was in favor of the bill but I didn't vote for her in 2020, but I voted for her in 2018. Make of that what you will, I could not care less.

I thought it had just been challenged and the Supreme Court dismissed the challenge?

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #67 on: September 7, 2021, 04:33:28 pm »
I think the only way to bring about positive change in the US is to allow states more leeway into deciding for themselves. Covid essentially broke the US apart so in general I believe a lot of things that are federal now should be returned to the states to prevent what's been going on lately. There's no reason why deeper blue states can't have Medicare for All and stronger gun laws essentially if that's what they decide to do. Now they're at the whims of a right-wing federal Supreme Court so they can't.

The problem is how to convince the federal government to give up power voluntarily though. Even so, the problem is that due to the increasing divide 52 % of the country will be mad if Republicans run the show and 48 % will be mad if Democrats do. That's not how things were in 2000. Back then Oregon was a swing state and the general differing lines between voters and states were smaller. I genuinely do believe that defunding congress would be the only way left-wingers in the US can get their priorities through in large parts of the country. Else, it's always going to be a powdercake where nothing gets done and both sides get ever madder with one another.

I'm lucky enough to have never even been there for myself but it's a pretty sad state of affairs over there.
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #68 on: September 7, 2021, 04:55:23 pm »
And you're more than entitled to that take, I just happen to disagree with it.

It's a bad law that found some dumb loophole and will more than likely and rightfully get challenged and overturned. My state rep was in favor of the bill but I didn't vote for her in 2020, but I voted for her in 2018. Make of that what you will, I could not care less.

The Supreme Court, with its three fake ass Trump judges said, nah you're good, go for it. It wasn't some dumb loophole, it was actually quite clever (I can explain it if you'd like), but clearly unconstitutional yet the SC was fine with it. I doubt it will get overturned.

As for your part in the whole thing, as you said, you don't care. I did consider asking whether it was my view you don't care about or whether it was your contribution to the law but it's probably both.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #69 on: September 7, 2021, 04:59:21 pm »
I think the only way to bring about positive change in the US is to allow states more leeway into deciding for themselves. Covid essentially broke the US apart so in general I believe a lot of things that are federal now should be returned to the states to prevent what's been going on lately. There's no reason why deeper blue states can't have Medicare for All and stronger gun laws essentially if that's what they decide to do. Now they're at the whims of a right-wing federal Supreme Court so they can't.

The problem is how to convince the federal government to give up power voluntarily though. Even so, the problem is that due to the increasing divide 52 % of the country will be mad if Republicans run the show and 48 % will be mad if Democrats do. That's not how things were in 2000. Back then Oregon was a swing state and the general differing lines between voters and states were smaller. I genuinely do believe that defunding congress would be the only way left-wingers in the US can get their priorities through in large parts of the country. Else, it's always going to be a powdercake where nothing gets done and both sides get ever madder with one another.

I'm lucky enough to have never even been there for myself but it's a pretty sad state of affairs over there.

Stronger gun laws will not be put into place as long as the NRA is lobbying. Ultimately money is the issue, in the sense that politicians are taking NRA's money and will not budge on any stricter gun laws.


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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #70 on: September 7, 2021, 05:00:16 pm »
I think the only way to bring about positive change in the US is to allow states more leeway into deciding for themselves. Covid essentially broke the US apart so in general I believe a lot of things that are federal now should be returned to the states to prevent what's been going on lately. There's no reason why deeper blue states can't have Medicare for All and stronger gun laws essentially if that's what they decide to do. Now they're at the whims of a right-wing federal Supreme Court so they can't.

This is actually kind of the opposite of what the Supreme Court just said in the TX abortion case. They said that a state law which depends for its enforcement on the citizenry rather than the state govt can't be reversed by the SC. Going by that precedent, for example, a blue state could enact a similar law whereby citizens could sue other citizens who hadn't been vaccinated. Blue states probably won't do that, though, because liberals generally aren't as shitty as conservatives.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #71 on: September 7, 2021, 05:28:00 pm »
This is actually kind of the opposite of what the Supreme Court just said in the TX abortion case. They said that a state law which depends for its enforcement on the citizenry rather than the state govt can't be reversed by the SC. Going by that precedent, for example, a blue state could enact a similar law whereby citizens could sue other citizens who hadn't been vaccinated. Blue states probably won't do that, though, because liberals generally aren't as shitty as conservatives.

No court is going to take such a covid lawsuit case against an individually unvaccinated person seriously anyway, the burden on proof is that you have to been subject to damages by the unvaccinated person which:

a) it's virtually impossible to prove that person gave you covid.
b) it's very unlikely a vaccinated person will be seriously ill with it.
c) unless the person has tested positive before they can just deny knowledge of having covid hence it being ruled an accidental transmission.

Any lawyer taking up such a case is fleecing their client for a shit ton of cash...

Either way, what I do believe has happened is that California and New York will be further self-emptied by conservatives who move to states more favourable to their ideas. In turn that will probably solidify Texas and Florida as stable red states moving forward. Before covid Texas was trending in the other direction but it seems like now liberals are hesitant about a place with no restrictions and Trump outperformed expectations in Texas by quite a bit already as he was tanking nationwide.

The Texas dilemma will make it a lot harder for Dems to win the EC with the PV majorities in the future because both of the two red sunshine states are growing in their EC influence and the loss of momentum in Texas after Trump overshot expectations will mean that also the Democrats' path to 270 has been squeezed in further. Just add another point for Trump last time and he'd edged the EC even with a 4-point deficit and that's even without the TX and FL expansion. Florida getting a reputation as a small-government state will likely lead to further more Republican migration to there and solidify it further. Florida had not in modern times been R+7 on the national average before last year and that seems to be growing.

Essentially we're now at a point where Republicans basically have a wrap on 219 electoral seats, Dems at 211 whereas the rest are a bunch of tossups or lean blue that are going to decide everything moving forward. Minnesota is borderline but in general only 108 will be competitive as things stand right now. That clearly changes a lot. This while Virginia and Colorado are now safe blue states while Dems can't win Iowa or Ohio anymore. It's a mess.

Clearly, this shows to me that for both sides to be happy the power of the federal congress needs to be limited. There are 50 well-equipped state legislatures to decide on what's the best for their respective populations.
« Last Edit: September 7, 2021, 05:31:53 pm by Linudden »
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #72 on: September 7, 2021, 05:31:28 pm »
No court is going to take such a covid lawsuit case seriously anyway, the burden on proof is that you have to been subject to damages by the unvaccinated person

That's not the case in the TX abortion law. You don't have to show damage (how could you?). You just get your ten grand plus your attorney's fees.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #73 on: September 7, 2021, 06:10:50 pm »
The Supreme Court, with its three fake ass Trump judges said, nah you're good, go for it. It wasn't some dumb loophole, it was actually quite clever (I can explain it if you'd like), but clearly unconstitutional yet the SC was fine with it. I doubt it will get overturned.

The NYT podcast 'The Daily' had a really good explanation. It does seem a brutally worded law that puts real fear into the abortion practices that they can get sued by literally anyone at all with incentives if the people suing win was enough for all of them to comply with the law until is over turned.

I'm sure it will get over turned but who knows when.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #74 on: September 7, 2021, 07:13:42 pm »
That's not the case in the TX abortion law. You don't have to show damage (how could you?). You just get your ten grand plus your attorney's fees.
Yep, so it simply makes everyone inclined to be in to an abortion bounty hunter. Easy dosh for a c*nt eh!

People should be condemning and abandoning Republicans in there masses at every level since 2016, they're not even a political party, they're just selfish scum.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2021, 09:53:34 am »
Brill detailed synopsis from skipper.

America in the future will be just fine.

Any visitor to the USA can tell you that Yanks don't know they're born.

When you've lived anywhere overseas you have something to compare with.

But the US is so big, different states have different rules and "state's rights" are usually inviable. Religious hypocrites abound and prey on the elderly, the isolated and the ignorant.  Guns will always be allowed, especially in poorly policed areas.

But every day in all the urban areas, young Latina and Asian girls are enticing young white boys into magical cultural differences, while handsome and well spoken young American boys from multi ethnic families are dating lily white Daughters of the American Revolution.

As the racist white population ages out and diversifies, things will change.  They already have.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 09:55:08 am by jambutty »
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2021, 08:05:33 pm »
Texas does seem to be an absolutely inbred shithouse of a State.

I was watching 'A Closer Look' before and they have shithouse laws like you can turn up to vote and a firearm registration is acceptable ID, but a University ID Card isn't

Banana. Republic.

Shameful that you have such a geniuinely backward titwad of a mess like this in a supposedly modern Western Nation
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2021, 08:11:51 pm »
This is quite terrifying. About how the far right are trying to completely and inseparably take over GOP at every single level possible.

https://slate.com/podcasts/what-next/2021/09/war-room-listeners-are-brigading-the-republican-ranks

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2021, 08:19:38 pm »
Texas does seem to be an absolutely inbred shithouse of a State.

I was watching 'A Closer Look' before and they have shithouse laws like you can turn up to vote and a firearm registration is acceptable ID, but a University ID Card isn't

Banana. Republic.

Shameful that you have such a geniuinely backward titwad of a mess like this in a supposedly modern Western Nation

It's funny, I work with loads of Texans. Vast majority of them seem like lovely people, though I don't talk politics with them generally. Granted they are all Houston based so more likely to be liberal, but it turns out some of them I work with and got along with well are die hard Trump fans.

It's really hard to square that circle.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2021, 10:06:27 pm »
It's funny, I work with loads of Texans. Vast majority of them seem like lovely people, though I don't talk politics with them generally. Granted they are all Houston based so more likely to be liberal, but it turns out some of them I work with and got along with well are die hard Trump fans.

It's really hard to square that circle.


I know a couple of people from Texas and they are the nicest people going. Really chilled out and happy..
.. until you mention politics and immigrants and taxes and Democrats..

.. then they are uber-rage at the drop of a hat... Some of their views are off their heads.
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