Topic: Never mind 'Stop the Boats' - STOP THE TORIES

[oldfordie]

It is a huge worry, because we’ve seen it all before. It took me personally a long time to get over the 1992 General Election. For those not around at the time, that GE arrived after 13 long, hard years of Tory rule. The misery Thatcher inflicted on the country was still going on, despite them having got rid of her. I’d recently graduated from Manc Poly, so was in a fortunate position of having a degree. Except there were no jobs for graduates, so it was the ET Enterprise Training scheme for me, (or Extra Tenner it was better known as that’s what you got on top of your dole money) working full time for 40 quid a week.

But the opinion polls had given us hope that things were finally changing. Some said a hung parliament, but most predicted a Labour victory. So the tinnies were bought and full of excitement and optimism me and my flat mate sat up all night as the results came in. By the end of the night, we realised that we’d once more been shafted by this strange nation that we live in who had voted 42% Tory and 30% Labour. It wasn’t even close. I remember thinking that was it. There would never be a Labour government again. I remember sitting in the local pub, the Willow Bank on Smithdown the following night and you could feel the depression in the air.

Basically don’t underestimate the depths most of the daily rags will descend to in order to keep their Tory mates in power. And don’t underestimate the extent to which a large part of the nation will lap it up once the GE comes around. Despite EVERYTHING that’s gone on since the last one.

I know exactly how you feel, posted the same in the past, as far as I was concerned a Labour victory was a cert. got a few cans in to celebrate watching the results come in. gutted.
I always put that result down to the last 2 weeks of Tory+media scare campaigning. I worked with one lad who bought his council house, new f,, all about politics but I put him down as a Labour voter up till then.
The Torys hammered the scare of a Labour government bringing very high interest rates, how millions wouldn't be able to afford to pay their mortgage, millions will lose their homes, millions will lose their jobs, I had a mortgage but never fell for it, we were all talking about the election in a few days, up pops this lad as though he's all clued up telling us the only concern he has is a Labour government will bring high interests rates which will mean high mortgage payments leading to people losing their homes and higher unemployment.  he was scared stiff of losing his home. it really pissed me off and told him he's got that from the Torys and they are just trying to scare you, am convinced he and millions more fell for it as well.

[stewil007]

If there is a difference this time ( and hopefully there is) some of the RW commentators and papers aren't being as supportive of the incumbents and are doing some fluff pieces on Labour, admittedly indispersed with the usual kranks.

Was out at christmas with a bunch of lads who we only see once a year due to where we are in the country, and one of our group has gone full Frottage and this is a very intelligent man who has never showed this inclination in the many years we've known him. I ended up walking away from the discussions as he was getting into the conspiracy mentality, stating that the overton window was very much to the left, global forces, small boats etc etc.  And the trope of 'they're all the same' came out more than once.

[Yorkykopite]

I was 20 in 1992. Working as a grunt for the Inland Revenue and facing more and more staff cuts and wanky new rules/procedures/initiatives. I'd done some leaflet-dropping for Labour in the lead-up.

Our local's landlord and landlady were big Labour supporters and had invited a select few - including me and a couple of my mates (who weren't political) to stay behind and watch the results come in with the bar open. Was really looking forward to it.

That afternoon, one our of close group of mates - I'll call him 'W' - who'd been living in Sheffield for a few months, came home. Another mate who was at Uni in Sheffield (who W had initially gone to stay with, but had moved into his own student place with his girlfiend) had warned us in the couple days before that W was acting freaky. The reality was much worse. He'd had a serious mental health breakdown. You can never know the trigger, but he's apparently been doing acid by the ton, and the mental pressures had been amplified by his mum & dad divorcing and splitting up with his own gf.

He appeared in the pub about half-9 and immediately began pissing people off with his antics (going up to random strangers and striking up weird, often paranoid conversations). These days you'd hope there was more understanding for people with mental health issues but back then he was in danger of getting a kicking. The landlord came over to us about half-10 and told us to get him out of the place. I volunteered to take him home as I had my car with me (I was probably a little 'over' the DD limit and was due to leave my car there overnight, but this seemed pressing). He decided he didn't want to go into his mum & dad's house and I couldn't just dump him. I ended up chatting with him till about 1am in the most frustrating series of discussions I've ever had - one minute he'd be relatively lucid, the next going off into his own world and delusions. He finally went into his house and I went home, to be met with the news that the Tories looked like clinging onto power.

Election night 1992 remains one of my most memorably depressing nights ever.

He was sectioned (for the first time) the next afternoon. He did recover to a large extent, despite a few relapses. He moved to China about 20 years ago to work as an English teacher. He kept in touch with a few of us initially, but nobody's heard from him in about 10 years (we know from checking online that he heads up the language school now, though  )

Sorry, I went off on one there. It just brings back vivid memories. 

I enjoyed reading that post (maybe "enjoyed" is not right!). Thanks Nobby.

'92, though, that was the worst. My mum had gone to the Sheffield rally during the election - the infamous one where Neil Kinnock got a bit hysterical. I remember her phoning me the next day to say that it had been the greatest political meeting she'd ever been to (and she'd been to the victory rally outside Huddersfield Town Hall in '45!). People who were at the Sheffield rally simply couldn't understand what everybody else was saying about Kinnock's diabolical speech. They were just caught up in the hysteria I suppose.

But even so I still remember thinking that we'd have a Kinnock government right up until the first results started coming in. I was in Belsize Park with a group of friends, The Macallan at the ready. What a blow. It wasn't as humiliating as '83 when we barely saw off the SDP to come second, but it was worse somehow because it seemed inconceivable the Tories would get back in again.

Losing the last general election was, of course, the most humiliating blow of all.  Not because Labour deserved to win (they didn't) but because after such a stonking defeat there looked to be absolutely no way back to power - and some of the Far Left didn't seem to care. Politics to them was about feeling good, hearing your opinions articulated by political leaders regardless of whether they were translated into action or not. To them, I suppose, the real victory had already been won when Corbyn became the Labour leader.

I'm just grateful that Labour is in the hunt again, under a leadership which is honest, decent, competent and hard-working. It's miraculous really given where we were, as a party, not so long ago.  I'm not even thinking about the loss of Scotland any more, and that also says a lot.

Naturally, a Labour victory won't be followed by the kind of nuts and bolts reconstruction of the UK that I believe in, and most people visiting these pages probably believe in too. But I'm a realist. There's no huge public appetite for socialism in Britain. Perhaps in the future there will be. But not right now. Even so I am convinced that millions of lives will improve if Labour forms the next government. That ought to be enough for anyone.

[Machae]

There's no huge public appetite for socialism in Britain.

I think generally there is, but the word has been weponised to the extreme by the Tories and/or right wing press, with the laymen noy being able to differentiate. Much like in the US where talk of socialism by Bernie Sanders strikes up negative images and shouts of 'Marxism'

[gazzalfc]

Couldn't find an old thread but according to twitter OldHolborn has died.

Don't know if he was a Tory but he was a horrible troll making Hillsborough and James Bulger jokes

[Dr. Beaker]

After the Kinnock defeat, Spitting Image did a really funny sketch. The tory cabinet had had a ‘leaving party’ in No.10 and had totally trashed the place “Fuck Off Kinnock” spray painted all over the walls, empty bottles and puke all over the place.
They are all waking up, hung over, around a table and all cursing because they had just found out they had actually won, and the place now needed cleaning up. There they are all cursing, “Oh Christ look at the carpet”, “Oh look at the walls”, “God has anyone seen the state of the toilet”.  Then one of them says, “Oh shit! What about the economy”!!

It was an election best lost. I’m sure Oldies mate suffered for his mortgage – and it wasn’t Labour’s fault.

[Yorkykopite]

I think generally there is, but the word has been weponised to the extreme by the Tories and/or right wing press, with the laymen noy being able to differentiate. Much like in the US where talk of socialism by Bernie Sanders strikes up negative images and shouts of 'Marxism'

It's always been weaponised though. Before the First World War it was associated with 'atheism', 'the communal ownership of women' and the 'blood-lust' of the Paris Commune.

Between the wars it was associated with 'Bolshevism', 'syndicalism' and 'the Red Terror'.

In the first decades after the Second World War it was associated with the 'Gestapo' (that was Churchill's main contribution to the genre), rationing and food queues, and Soviet imperialism.

Later it was associated with the Cultural Revolution in China, British Leyland and Castro.

Now it means Critical Race Theory and Woke Tyranny.

There never will be a time when the British press does not lose its shit over the word 'socialism'. And, if we're honest, some of the shit is sometimes deserved. Remember recently how Corbyn used to sing the praises of Chavez and Venezuela just as Chavez sent Venezuela into a spiralling tailspin of poverty, starvation and police thuggery?

And yet, despite all this, there ARE times (though not many) when people in our country can see through the shit and are genuinely moved by the ideal. Often after a World War.

I just don't see it happening right now I'm afraid.

[Red-Soldier]

I think generally there is, but the word has been weponised to the extreme by the Tories and/or right wing press, with the laymen noy being able to differentiate. Much like in the US where talk of socialism by Bernie Sanders strikes up negative images and shouts of 'Marxism'

I agree. But, it depends how you word it.  Also, the only people that use the word now are the old Labour types (and the right-wing media).  None of the latest political ideas mention the word at all, such as The Green New Deal, The Circular Economy, Doughnut Economics or Degrowth.

You could say all those ideas were socialist, perhaps.  However, the word is so toxic now, it is best left in the past.  21st century socialism is different, and doesn't use (or need) the word at all.

[Yorkykopite]

I agree. But, it depends how you word it.  Also, the only people that use the word now are the old Labour types (and the right-wing media).  None of the latest political ideas mention the word at all, such as The Green New Deal, The Circular Economy, Doughnut Economics or Degrowth.

You could say all those ideas were socialist, perhaps.  However, the word is so toxic now, it is best left in the past.  21st century socialism is different, and doesn't use (or need) the word at all.

From William Morris's 'The Dream of John Ball' where he imagines a conversation with the executed martyr of the Peasants' Revolt:

“I pondered…how men fight and lose the battle, and the thing that they fought for comes about in spite of their defeat, and when it comes turns out not to be what they meant, and other men have to fight for what they meant under another name.”

And, if you've ever read Morris's 'News from Nowhere', his fantasy of life in England after a socialist revolution, you might remember that no one living in the socialist utopia has ever heard the word 'socialism'!

[Dr. Beaker]

Maybe 'antisocial' which has rather a different but negative connotation should be used more often to describe individual greediness etc.

[spen71]

I know exactly how you feel, posted the same in the past, as far as I was concerned a Labour victory was a cert. got a few cans in to celebrate watching the results come in. gutted.
I always put that result down to the last 2 weeks of Tory+media scare campaigning. I worked with one lad who bought his council house, new f,, all about politics but I put him down as a Labour voter up till then.
The Torys hammered the scare of a Labour government bringing very high interest rates, how millions wouldn't be able to afford to pay their mortgage, millions will lose their homes, millions will lose their jobs, I had a mortgage but never fell for it, we were all talking about the election in a few days, up pops this lad as though he's all clued up telling us the only concern he has is a Labour government will bring high interests rates which will mean high mortgage payments leading to people losing their homes and higher unemployment.  he was scared stiff of losing his home. it really pissed me off and told him he's got that from the Torys and they are just trying to scare you, am convinced he and millions more fell for it as well.

The crazy thing about that during thatchers terms,  interest rates were nearly 20%.    My dad worked every hour under the sun at Shell to pay the mortgage off.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I agree. But, it depends how you word it.  Also, the only people that use the word now are the old Labour types (and the right-wing media).  None of the latest political ideas mention the word at all, such as The Green New Deal, The Circular Economy, Doughnut Economics or Degrowth.

You could say all those ideas were socialist, perhaps.  However, the word is so toxic now, it is best left in the past.  21st century socialism is different, and doesn't use (or need) the word at all.

I listened to a podcast recently with Stella Creasy,  she used the term quite liberally. Maybe MPs feel more empowered to use the word on a left wing podcast than national tv.

There was a post from Tepid years ago where people were asked what they thought of Corbyns policies and they were generally very favourable, I think the info that they came from JC was not disclosed, but they were pretty left wing policies.

[TepidT2O]

I listened to a podcast recently with Stella Creasy,  she used the term quite liberally. Maybe MPs feel more empowered to use the word on a left wing podcast than national tv.

There was a post from Tepid years ago where people were asked what they thought of Corbyns policies and they were generally very favourable, I think the info that they came from JC was not disclosed, but they were pretty left wing policies.

BNP and UKIP policies often poll well (when stripped of other policies and context ) so I think care is needed with this!

[Kenny's Jacket]

BNP and UKIP policies often poll well (when stripped of other policies and context ) so I think care is needed with this!

You posted it pal 

Seriously though, I cam imagine they do, Rwanda seems a popular policy.

[oldfordie]

The crazy thing about that during thatchers terms,  interest rates were nearly 20%.    My dad worked every hour under the sun at Shell to pay the mortgage off.

Yeah, horrible period, the idea that people sit down and consider Manifestos is way off the mark, scaring people into voting Tory also has a big effect on many, I was feeling the same as Red Mist,  similar to today. how could Labour not win considering all we had been through under the Torys.

[Jiminy Cricket]

I was 20 in 1992. Working as a grunt for the Inland Revenue and facing more and more staff cuts and wanky new rules/procedures/initiatives. I'd done some leaflet-dropping for Labour in the lead-up.

Our local's landlord and landlady were big Labour supporters and had invited a select few - including me and a couple of my mates (who weren't political) to stay behind and watch the results come in with the bar open. Was really looking forward to it.

That afternoon, one our of close group of mates - I'll call him 'W' - who'd been living in Sheffield for a few months, came home. Another mate who was at Uni in Sheffield (who W had initially gone to stay with, but had moved into his own student place with his girlfiend) had warned us in the couple days before that W was acting freaky. The reality was much worse. He'd had a serious mental health breakdown. You can never know the trigger, but he's apparently been doing acid by the ton, and the mental pressures had been amplified by his mum & dad divorcing and splitting up with his own gf.

He appeared in the pub about half-9 and immediately began pissing people off with his antics (going up to random strangers and striking up weird, often paranoid conversations). These days you'd hope there was more understanding for people with mental health issues but back then he was in danger of getting a kicking. The landlord came over to us about half-10 and told us to get him out of the place. I volunteered to take him home as I had my car with me (I was probably a little 'over' the DD limit and was due to leave my car there overnight, but this seemed pressing). He decided he didn't want to go into his mum & dad's house and I couldn't just dump him. I ended up chatting with him till about 1am in the most frustrating series of discussions I've ever had - one minute he'd be relatively lucid, the next going off into his own world and delusions. He finally went into his house and I went home, to be met with the news that the Tories looked like clinging onto power.

Election night 1992 remains one of my most memorably depressing nights ever.

He was sectioned (for the first time) the next afternoon. He did recover to a large extent, despite a few relapses. He moved to China about 20 years ago to work as an English teacher. He kept in touch with a few of us initially, but nobody's heard from him in about 10 years (we know from checking online that he heads up the language school now, though  )

Sorry, I went off on one there. It just brings back vivid memories. 

So, you did not even get see Chris Patten's face?

https://youtu.be/L-6YNXpOw8M?t=716

Enjoy! Albeit, 30 years late.

[TepidT2O]

[Red_Mist]

I know exactly how you feel, posted the same in the past, as far as I was concerned a Labour victory was a cert. got a few cans in to celebrate watching the results come in. gutted.
I always put that result down to the last 2 weeks of Tory+media scare campaigning.

Same here. And I still think it was. The Express for one was as bad as it is now, if not worse. Can’t remember their specific Election Day headline, but I distinctly remember seeing it and getting a twinge of worry, before dismissing it as paranoia. As if anything could help the Tories by that point?! Yeah, as if.

One good thing now is that loads fewer of these papers are bought nowadays, so their influence has to be less. Daily Express readers are probably diehard Tories who would still vote for them if they caught Rishi pissing through their letterbox. Nowadays it’ll probably be won and lost online rather than on the front pages. Which is a worry in itself.

[Yorkykopite]

How would the Daily Mail deal with the "performance" of Sunak, Zahawi, Kwarteng, Javid, and Braverman if these politicians somehow belonged in a Labour government?

I think they'd provoke a race war.

As it is, they are hell-bent on stopping the scrounging of the poor.

[oldfordie]

Same here. And I still think it was. The Express for one was as bad as it is now, if not worse. Can’t remember their specific Election Day headline, but I distinctly remember seeing it and getting a twinge of worry, before dismissing it as paranoia. As if anything could help the Tories by that point?! Yeah, as if.

One good thing now is that loads fewer of these papers are bought nowadays, so their influence has to be less. Daily Express readers are probably diehard Tories who would still vote for them if they caught Rishi pissing through their letterbox. Nowadays it’ll probably be won and lost online rather than on the front pages. Which is a worry in itself.

Yeah, I know we are all begining to take the next election as a formality, maybe best to remind ourselves of past elections. there really shouldn't be any need for any Manifesto or campaigning, everyone should want this Tory government gone, they should face a torrent of abuse during the election debates but people will still listen to what they say and am sure many will think, ohh that sounds good, am voting for the Torys.

[Schmarn]

I was 18 at the 1992 election. First ever vote, lived in a safe Tory seat (Southend West) but proudly put the X next to Labour. I was massively into politics at the time and followed every single poll, party broadcast, Question Time and news story. I know now to discount every Labour poll lead by 5pts but back then I believed it completely and genuinely thought we’d bring an end to the Tories who had done their usual trick of dumping their leader (Thatcher) in the hope it would con the public into forgetting the horrors of the poll tax.

I think the Sheffield rally has been wildly overblown as one of the reasons we lost. Kinnock saying “we’re alright!” was hardly scary, just a bit strange. The fact is that people had a strong fear of Labour increasing taxes based on what happened in the last Labour government and the Tory campaign hammered away at it non stop. Still remember the “Labour’s Tax Bombshell” posters. Kinnock was also seen as bungling and not serious unfairly by many. Bear in mind back then you had newspapers and 4 tv channels. No internet. So the narrative set by the press was powerful and relentlessly negative.

On the night, the excitement was soon crushed by the result in Basildon which made it sickeningly clear it wasn’t going to happen. Still remember the late David Amess’ grinning face marking another 5 years of the Tories.

In hindsight it’s probably true that losing led to the Labour landslide in 97. Had Kinnock won in 92 he’d have had the ERM disaster and Black Wednesday in his first year. Nonetheless those of us who experienced 92 will always have an innate fear that Labour will lose whatever the polls say.

[Sangria]

I was 18 at the 1992 election. First ever vote, lived in a safe Tory seat (Southend West) but proudly put the X next to Labour. I was massively into politics at the time and followed every single poll, party broadcast, Question Time and news story. I know now to discount every Labour poll lead by 5pts but back then I believed it completely and genuinely thought we’d bring an end to the Tories who had done their usual trick of dumping their leader (Thatcher) in the hope it would con the public into forgetting the horrors of the poll tax.

I think the Sheffield rally has been wildly overblown as one of the reasons we lost. Kinnock saying “we’re alright!” was hardly scary, just a bit strange. The fact is that people had a strong fear of Labour increasing taxes based on what happened in the last Labour government and the Tory campaign hammered away at it non stop. Still remember the “Labour’s Tax Bombshell” posters. Kinnock was also seen as bungling and not serious unfairly by many. Bear in mind back then you had newspapers and 4 tv channels. No internet. So the narrative set by the press was powerful and relentlessly negative.

On the night, the excitement was soon crushed by the result in Basildon which made it sickeningly clear it wasn’t going to happen. Still remember the late David Amess’ grinning face marking another 5 years of the Tories.

In hindsight it’s probably true that losing led to the Labour landslide in 97. Had Kinnock won in 92 he’d have had the ERM disaster and Black Wednesday in his first year. Nonetheless those of us who experienced 92 will always have an innate fear that Labour will lose whatever the polls say.

1992 is why I have little time for people who argue that Labour will lose or will be worthless because they are not left wing enough.

[PaulF]

I know exactly how you feel, posted the same in the past, as far as I was concerned a Labour victory was a cert. got a few cans in to celebrate watching the results come in. gutted.
I always put that result down to the last 2 weeks of Tory+media scare campaigning. I worked with one lad who bought his council house, new f,, all about politics but I put him down as a Labour voter up till then.
The Torys hammered the scare of a Labour government bringing very high interest rates, how millions wouldn't be able to afford to pay their mortgage, millions will lose their homes, millions will lose their jobs, I had a mortgage but never fell for it, we were all talking about the election in a few days, up pops this lad as though he's all clued up telling us the only concern he has is a Labour government will bring high interests rates which will mean high mortgage payments leading to people losing their homes and higher unemployment.  he was scared stiff of losing his home. it really pissed me off and told him he's got that from the Torys and they are just trying to scare you, am convinced he and millions more fell for it as well.

What's to stop them pulling the same trick again?  Labour can't be trusted with the economy. They will give in to the strikes and will have to raise taxes to pay them.  The highly paid train drivers will cause inflation to rocket and the BoE will have to raise rates further.

Utter twaddle I know, but if the 'media' run with it. Then enough of the electorate will believe it for it not to be a Labour landslide. The tories just have to invoke project fear.

*Media being facebook's algorithms.

[Kenny's Jacket]

What's to stop them pulling the same trick again?  Labour can't be trusted with the economy.

[west_london_red]

What's to stop them pulling the same trick again?  Labour can't be trusted with the economy. They will give in to the strikes and will have to raise taxes to pay them.  The highly paid train drivers will cause inflation to rocket and the BoE will have to raise rates further.

Utter twaddle I know, but if the 'media' run with it. Then enough of the electorate will believe it for it not to be a Labour landslide. The tories just have to invoke project fear.

*Media being facebook's algorithms.

The Tories will always try it, they try it every election. I suspect by the next election the economy will have recovered and the Tory line will be dont let Labour ruin the recovery which should be taking place by then, hopefully the voters don’t have the memories of gold fish and can remember how shit what will be by then the last 15 years and not just the last 12 months before the election, but it’s also worth remembering its not always about the economy. The economy was doing well in 1997 and the Tories still got absolutely battered.

[Nobby Reserve]

What's to stop them pulling the same trick again?  Labour can't be trusted with the economy. They will give in to the strikes and will have to raise taxes to pay them.  The highly paid train drivers will cause inflation to rocket and the BoE will have to raise rates further.

Utter twaddle I know, but if the 'media' run with it. Then enough of the electorate will believe it for it not to be a Labour landslide. The tories just have to invoke project fear.

*Media being facebook's algorithms.

I think there's been a massive change in the way the electorate chooses to vote. Old stereotypes and slavish devotion to a particular party have really diminished.

I don't actually want a Labour majority. I want them to need the LDs, and the LDs demand PR (not a referendum, but legislation) as the price for support.

The LDs (and SNP) would also push a Labour-led government closer to re-integration with the EU.

[oldfordie]

What's to stop them pulling the same trick again?  Labour can't be trusted with the economy. They will give in to the strikes and will have to raise taxes to pay them.  The highly paid train drivers will cause inflation to rocket and the BoE will have to raise rates further.

Utter twaddle I know, but if the 'media' run with it. Then enough of the electorate will believe it for it not to be a Labour landslide. The tories just have to invoke project fear.

*Media being facebook's algorithms.

I imagine that's the plan, it's not going as well as it has in the past,  older Tory MPs telling the rest of the Tory MPs to keep their nerve, keep repeating the lie and people will believe it.
I saw a few Tory MPs trying to con voters into believing NHS pay rises will bring inflation, I assume it was a con, if they actually believe it then they are more thick than I expected. they seem to have gone quiet on that one as it's so easy to make them look like idiots.
The private sector strikes is another matter, they are getting their excuses in now, if Labour would have backed the government on standing firm against the strikers earning £80k a year then we could of lowered inflation. less suffering for pensioners blah blah blah, you could see that coming from day 1, am sure many will believe it but I think the majority of Union bosses have handled the press very well. asking the support of Labour MPs will not help their cause, Labour MPs supporting them are only giving the Torys ammo to defend themselves by attack Labour and the Unions.

[Sangria]

I think there's been a massive change in the way the electorate chooses to vote. Old stereotypes and slavish devotion to a particular party have really diminished.

I don't actually want a Labour majority. I want them to need the LDs, and the LDs demand PR (not a referendum, but legislation) as the price for support.

The LDs (and SNP) would also push a Labour-led government closer to re-integration with the EU.

Left of centre people who don't want a Labour majority also hold a grudge against the Lib Dems for the Coalition and tuition fees. They're very ready to post one issue or another as the red line for why they won't vote for the mainstream parties left of the Tories. Except for the SNP. But we know what their primary issue is, and why it's a non-goer for the left outside Scotland. Any left that wants to form a British government, anyway.

[oldfordie]

I think there's been a massive change in the way the electorate chooses to vote. Old stereotypes and slavish devotion to a particular party have really diminished.

I don't actually want a Labour majority. I want them to need the LDs, and the LDs demand PR (not a referendum, but legislation) as the price for support.

The LDs (and SNP) would also push a Labour-led government closer to re-integration with the EU.

This country took a massive step backwards over the last 6-7yrs. it's not all about party politics, am sure many life long Tory voters were horrified by the direction the country took, the extreme right took control and used populism and Nazi propaganda to anger the public, the will of the people and enemy of the people right wing politicians need to be taught a lesson they will never forget.
I want them to be destroyed at the next election, a massive Labour majority will be a lesson they wont forget. anything but a Labour majority will be a disaster for me, a minority will bring hope for the corrupt incompetent Tory MPs.
I am still surprised to hear Labour left supporters arguing for PR considering the left Labour MPs refusal to work with other partys, we saw the result back in 2019 when Labour refused to form a National government. PR will bring the same situation over and over for decades. voters are more likely to move away from Labour if they refuse to govern as it would be a wasted vote,  it's a matter of being careful of what you wish for.

[Red-Soldier]

From William Morris's 'The Dream of John Ball' where he imagines a conversation with the executed martyr of the Peasants' Revolt:

“I pondered…how men fight and lose the battle, and the thing that they fought for comes about in spite of their defeat, and when it comes turns out not to be what they meant, and other men have to fight for what they meant under another name.”

And, if you've ever read Morris's 'News from Nowhere', his fantasy of life in England after a socialist revolution, you might remember that no one living in the socialist utopia has ever heard the word 'socialism'!

That's very good.  I've never read Morris, I will look up his writings.

[Robinred]

Loved one of the comments in the John Crace piece in today’s Guardian:

“Following his umpteenth surprise visit to Ukraine, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is now being referred to an Ethics Advisor for an alleged interest in conflicts.”

[John C]

anything but a Labour majority will be a disaster for me, a minority will bring hope for the corrupt incompetent Tory MPs.

The country gets more bizarre by the day fordie, when people aren't hoping to see the shift we desperately need from the electorate to fully cross over that line to the left.
Mind you, we're trying to convince someone who has already declared "Labour have long lost my vote".

[Riquende]

I don't see how Zahawi stays, given that he hasn't had the immediate sort of support that Johnson doled out to ministers in distress. A cynical person might think he's going to time a resignation 30 minutes or so before PMQs, so that the thrust of Starmer's questions over him are blunted...

[Nobby Reserve]

The country gets more bizarre by the day fordie, when people aren't hoping to see the shift we desperately need from the electorate to fully cross over that line to the left.
Mind you, we're trying to convince someone who has already declared "Labour have long lost my vote".

I'm in a very safe Labour seat. I have the luxury of voting for the party who best represents my political opinions. If I were in a seat that was in any way marginal, I'd vote for the candidate most likely to beat the Tory, regardless of the party they were in.

I think this country absolutely needs PR to replace FPTP. It's FPTP that has been the facilitator of Tory governments for most of my 50 years, as they have generally a free run at the right-of-centre vote, whereas Labour, LD's, SNP, Greens, PC all have mostly centrist/left-of-centre policies.
I also don't believe that that a party getting 30-something percent of the popular vote should be in a position of absolute power in government.
PR gives a fairer representation of how the electorate votes.

The current Labour position rejects the idea of PR for general elections. The only chance of PR getting adopted would be that Labour need a coalition partner. Additionally, I think a coalition that involved the LDs or SNP would make closer former arrangements with the EU more likely. And that is vital to both the economy and society/freedoms/regulations.

I can understand Labour not currently wanting PR as they believe they're on course for a solid majority at the next GE. But it seemed for several years from 1997 that Labour were going to be in power a generation. A few short years later, you have one of the most economically right-wing governments in modern UK history decimating public services and slashing benefits for the poorest and most vulnerable people, then that same Tory Party being cowed into an EU referendum by the far-right loons with the result we're now drowning outside of the EU.

PR would diminish the chances of such a series of hard-right governments being elected again.

[oldfordie]

The country gets more bizarre by the day fordie, when people aren't hoping to see the shift we desperately need from the electorate to fully cross over that line to the left.
Mind you, we're trying to convince someone who has already declared "Labour have long lost my vote".

I know many people on the left want the country to move towards the left but why do they want this to happen, the answer should be to create a better world, the goal must be a more decent caring society otherwise what's the point, ive always felt like this but others have different priorities, attacking anything capitalist etc seems to be their main concern for everything, from health to business.   

[Nobby Reserve]

I know many people on the left want the country to move towards the left but why do they want this to happen, the answer should be to create a better world, the goal must be a more decent caring society otherwise what's the point, ive always felt like this but others have different priorities, attacking anything capitalist etc seems to be their main concern for everything, from health to business.

To many on the left, the entire principle of capitalism is a big aspect of the problem that creates poverty and need. So believe that without capitalism being eradicated - or at least curtailed and hugely regulated - there can be no solution to ending poverty and need.

People 'less left' will believe that they can work with capitalism, with some regulation, and mitigate some/a lot of the evils that capitalism inevitably brings.


There's a lot of either misunderstanding or perhaps misrepresentation on here of what 'leftist' people think or want, and what their motivations are.

[Machae]

Sunak brings up Corbyn again, how predictable

[oldfordie]

To many on the left, the entire principle of capitalism is a big aspect of the problem that creates poverty and need. So believe that without capitalism being eradicated - or at least curtailed and hugely regulated - there can be no solution to ending poverty and need.

People 'less left' will believe that they can work with capitalism, with some regulation, and mitigate some/a lot of the evils that capitalism inevitably brings.


There's a lot of either misunderstanding or perhaps misrepresentation on here of what 'leftist' people think or want, and what their motivations are.

WOW, So the aim is to eradicate Capitalism, so why are you trying to do this off the back of the Labour party, moving the Labour party towards a Communist position, I don't mean this as a insult but if you want to eradicate Capitalism then at least fight for it with the party that supports that fight, The Communist party. what I can never understand is the refusal to see the obvious, you will have lost the battle the moment you declare your true intentions, thats fine with me but it's not fine if the Labour party's future takes a hammering if others call it Socialism rather than Communism.

[PaulF]

Is Nobby saying he wants to end capitalism, or merely pointing out that's what some want?

[oldfordie]

Is Nobby saying he wants to end capitalism, or merely pointing out that's what some want?

There is no misrepresentation of what Communists want, they just hide behind the word Socialist when challenged.